Let's Discuss: Triple H

[Gangers]

So what I thought I'd do is a series of threads (perhaps weekly?) where we discuss some of the more divisive wrestlers in recent history and get everyone's thoughts on whether they were/are great, shit, overrated, underrated, a gentleman or a cad, and so on. I thought a perfect guy to start with would be The Cerebral Executive, Triple H.

Triple H joined the WWF in 1995 and since then has been a 13-time World Champion as well as a founding member of both DX and Evolution. His impact upon the business, good or bad, is beyond question, but what do you guys think of 'The Game'? Is he a narcissistic bully, possible racist and shameless self-promoter, now desperate to remain relevant while the sun sets on his illustrious career, whose career has only been such a success because of his marriage to Stephanie? Or is he a versatile ring general with scores of 4 star matches under his belt with a massive variety of opponents, who put over Chris Benoit and John Cena clean in WrestleMania main events?

When he does hang up the boots for good, what will the legacy of Triple H be? What's his greatest ever match? Who did he bury, and why? How might his career have differed if he had never shacked up with Steph?

Also, if you have any thoughts for future discussions, feel free to nominate. A few names that jump out straight away that tend to divide opinion are:
Kane
RVD
The Rock (2011 onwards, in particular)
John Cena
Batista

[Slare]

I love HHH.

I think he is the consumate professional wrestler and has done an incredible job of being the essance of an old-school main eventer upadated in an era of attitude.

I'm always the first to jump to his defence when the (now a parody of itself) HHH bashing crops up. He's not made perfect decisions from start to finish by any means, but I truly believe his mind is always on the good of the business while making them.

He gets bashed for not putting RVD over in 2002 - but the WHC had just been branded and needed legitimacy. That legitimacy wouldnt come from hot-potatoing it all over the shop in its first few months, and really, look what happened when they eventually did give RVD the ball.

He gets bashed for not putting Booker T over in 2003 - this one is a tricky one, but I think it was a case of plans changing along the way of the storyline. Obviously when bringing race into the storyling and knocking Booker T's past, the plan had to have been giving Booker his redemption and giving him the belt. But then the WWE went ahead and signed Goldberg. They had to know that Goldberg was coming to Raw and that he would be going after the WHC. To make him look as good as possible, they have to have him beat a strong heel champion for the title. A strong heel champion looks a lot better having not been beat then winning his title back to Booker T, only to lose it again to Goldberg.

He made Batista, he made (eventually) Randy Orton, he legitimized Cena in 2006, he put over Jeff Hardy to solidify him as a main eventer in 2008. Hell, he even gave C.M Punk a huge rub in 206 at Survivor Series.
He knows now that he is the future of the business and he hasn't put a foot wrong in the last few years as regards to NXT, bringing characters in with actual storylines and developed personalities and trying to position talent at the top of the card.

He was the epitome of the 'WWE Main Event Style" across the turn of the millenium and was the ultimate heel. In fact, he's played a few different types of heel, from the 'cool' heel in 1999 to the 'properly hate you and I want to see someone hurt you' run from 2003ish.

In the ring, he's been involved in most of my favourite matches. A lot of people will call him slow and methodical or whatever, but I'll take that any day over spotfests and guys just doing moves for the sake of it. He tells stories in the ring like nobody else, and makes sure everything he does has a reason and we know what is it.

There's an incredibly diverse body of work there too. Ladder match with the Rock, street fight with Foley, Hell in the Cell with Foley, the Michaels comeback series, Iron Man with the Rock, LMS with Jericho and latterly the HIAC with BIG DAVE, his series with Hardy and the fun D-X run.

I think he has a cracking comic timing on the mic and knows exactly what tone to put promos across in and why.

Obviously there have been times when hes come out with 20 minute promos of doom and the like but hey give the guy a break he really wanted to be Ric Flair.

Anyway, I love HHH

[chatty]

No problems with HHH.

He has had some great matches and feuds and has been able to adapt from youthful upstart through a range of face, heel and comedy roles as well as setting the record for most stables (DX, Corportion, Corprate Ministry, Evolution - I'm exaggerating but he's been in a fair few) and he's put guys over whilst staying at the top for long periods.

He does have some terrible storys he has been involved in and his time as number 1 was pretty bad, mainly due to injuries but I think most have those problems in a career this long so its a bit harsh to judge him on those alone.

[Cewsh]

Triple H is a guy who has a vast library of "Very Good" matches, and maybe only 2 or 3 "Great" ones. Because of that, I think he gets super harshly underrated for his in ring skills, even though he may have been the most consistantly great worker in WWE after Michaels left.

His good points were buried under the smear job the internet did on his reputation for years and years, but luckily it looks like that's easing up now that he's rescued the developmental system.

[Gangers]

To be honest, as an on-screen character I've never been less fond of him than I am now. I absolutely adored his long running rivalry with The Rock (I only started watching in 2000 by which point I'd already missed two years of their on-off feud) and Evolution was an absolutely sick stable. But his COO character just irritates me, which is why I included my comments in the opening post about being desperate to remain relevant. The weird thing is I think he can still go in the ring just fine, it's not like he was ever a high flyer or anything so his more general style has held up well with his advancing years. I'd love him to be used more like Chris Jericho, giving serious legitimacy to people like Daniel Bryan or Dolph Ziggler. But he thinks people still want him in marquee matches against people like Undertaker and Lesnar. Do they? I'm not convinced that many people do, except maybe SLARE. I think it's more that he wants to be in them, whether or not that's the right call (it isn't).

For every Booker he buried, there's a Benoit he gave a boost to, in my view. If he hadn't been married to Steph, he probably would be used the way I've suggested above. And some feuds he might have come out looking more vulnerable than he did, but he did have a lot of stroke behind the scenes even before his involvement with her and he was certainly being groomed as a main eventer well before.

[Tainted Eclipse]

I don't hate Triple H and I'm not sure how much I buy into "Triple H as master politician screweing everyone over to keep himself on top," but at the same time I'm not saying I DON'T buy into any of it. His keeping the belt as the heel ace of RAW while he had a number of hot face challengers who should have won does seem pretty egregious but I wasn't watching at the time so I won't comment too much on that. It's easy to paint a picture of Trips as a paranoid guy out to secure his own place because he was set for a monster push proto-Attitude Era but Austin, Rock and Foley suddenly became a million times popular each than he ever would be and Triple H became something of a second though for awhile.

As for his ring work, he's flatly average. I can't think of any really great Triple H performance. I'd be hard pressed to think of a particularly good one, though I'm sure those are there. Most of his touted "classics" are those over bloated 2000s WWE gimmick matches which I think are scandalously overrated and really not very good. If I'm thinking about "great wrestlers" Triple H is comically far from my mind.

[Slare]

To be honest, as an on-screen character I've never been less fond of him than I am now. I absolutely adored his long running rivalry with The Rock (I only started watching in 2000 by which point I'd already missed two years of their on-off feud) and Evolution was an absolutely sick stable. But his COO character just irritates me, which is why I included my comments in the opening post about being desperate to remain relevant. The weird thing is I think he can still go in the ring just fine, it's not like he was ever a high flyer or anything so his more general style has held up well with his advancing years. I'd love him to be used more like Chris Jericho, giving serious legitimacy to people like Daniel Bryan or Dolph Ziggler. But he thinks people still want him in marquee matches against people like Undertaker and Lesnar. Do they? I'm not convinced that many people do, except maybe SLARE. I think it's more that he wants to be in them, whether or not that's the right call (it isn't).

For every Booker he buried, there's a Benoit he gave a boost to, in my view. If he hadn't been married to Steph, he probably would be used the way I've suggested above. And some feuds he might have come out looking more vulnerable than he did, but he did have a lot of stroke behind the scenes even before his involvement with her and he was certainly being groomed as a main eventer well before.


I think hes in the very unique position right now of being one of the very few 'old guard' main eventers who are still there full time and can still draw. I think, however, to be used most effectively he has to be used in the ring sparingly. Having him in the ring every other week right now would dilute the eventual big matches on the grander stages. He's a great name to have around come Mania time because he could be used in big marquee matches against your lesnars and Undertakers, or to try and put others up a level like Sheamus or Punk.

[DaSaintFan]

Honestly, I think HHH is one of those guys that realized he made a blunder at points in his career as a top-star (again, the Booker T one being the biggest that comes to mind. I think there was SO much backlash on that decision, and a few others that led up to that time frame, I think HHH realized what he was doing wrong if he wanted to make sure the WWE kept it's billing as the best sports entertainment company around.

Ever since then, he's gone out of his way in storylines to make sure he's making other guys look good who need to look good.

[Slare]

Or maybe he's just been very good at putting people over and making people look good and the Booker T situation wasn't a case of him trying to bury anyone at all but a problem of circumstance and it wasn't actually him making the decisions in the first place.

[chatty]

He's not a great in ring worker in a traditional sense but he's had more than his share of really good to great gimmick matches:

V Jericho (LMS, HIAC)
V Michaels (SF, 3SOH)
Taker (WMX7, 27, 28)
Rock (Ladder, IM)
Austin (3SOH)
Benoit/Jericho (Tag with Austin)
Benoit v Michaels (WM20, Backlash)
Punk (No DQ)
Ric Flair (LMS)
Foley (HIAC, SF)
Several EC

I'm sure there are plenty more so whilst he may not standout as one of the best technical, high flyer, submission wrestlers etc he still has a mighty fine history of top quality matches.

[Cewsh]

Honestly, I think HHH is one of those guys that realized he made a blunder at points in his career as a top-star (again, the Booker T one being the biggest that comes to mind. I think there was SO much backlash on that decision, and a few others that led up to that time frame, I think HHH realized what he was doing wrong if he wanted to make sure the WWE kept it's billing as the best sports entertainment company around.

Ever since then, he's gone out of his way in storylines to make sure he's making other guys look good who need to look good.

I've never seen a wrestler get blamed more for booking decisions that he had nothing to do with than Triple H.

[Kdestiny]

Triple H isn't great in my mind, he is good though.

His HIAC match with Taker at Wrestlemania might be the most overrated match I know though.

[Atty]

He was clearly trying to hold people down. DUH.

[Atty]

His HIAC match with Taker at Wrestlemania might be the most overrated match I know though.

:getout:

[Slare]

HHH is a 'Hollywood' wrestler. It's all about the story, the drama, the big moments, the blood, the gimmicks and the like. It's a totally different style than we're accustomed to now. Actually, probably the only guy still in the school is Cena. I love it. I loved the Undertaker HIAC match because it was like watching a movie. It took you entirely out of wrestlemania as an event and all you were watching was this epic battle between the last two outlaws - like something out of a fantasy novel or something - it was the most invested I can remember myself being in a wrestling match in years and it was light years away from the glitz and shitz of Cena/Rock.

[Kdestiny]

I'll stay thanks.

I just got through watching his DVD and I rewatched his matches at WM with Taker and his match at Wrestlemania 27 was definitely the better of the two.

[Cewsh]

HHH is a 'Hollywood' wrestler. It's all about the story, the drama, the big moments, the blood, the gimmicks and the like. It's a totally different style than we're accustomed to now. Actually, probably the only guy still in the school is Cena. I love it. I loved the Undertaker HIAC match because it was like watching a movie. It took you entirely out of wrestlemania as an event and all you were watching was this epic battle between the last two outlaws - like something out of a fantasy novel or something - it was the most invested I can remember myself being in a wrestling match in years and it was light years away from the glitz and shitz of Cena/Rock.

That's a great summary of the match.

[WizoOzz]

My feeling overall is that Trips' legacy will truly be made during his time as an executive, rather than as a wrestler.

In my opinion, he had the daunting task of carrying the company when several top guys were in flux - which could have been disastrous with a less capable wrestler. He did, however, manage to put some prestige in a title that was quite literally handed to him, and managed to get at the very least a solid run in the main event scene for a decent length of time. The only area that I feel he failed at was keeping his character fresh during that time. But ultimately, he was a solid hand.

What is being done behind the scenes, in terms of signing some of the bigger names in the independent scene, if what I've read on this site (and others) is to be believed, has been mostly Trips' doing. For that, they are going to have a very large receipt. It's basically taking what worked in the past - the territory aspect of WWE and taking established guys and putting them on a bigger stage - that is going to pay off and keep the company moving forward and evolving. Just look at CM Punk's success and multiply that by Ambrose, and guys like El Generico, PAC, etc. Trips' moves are ushering in the next era, and that IMO should be his legacy. He was a worker, and as such is using his knowledge and taking the right steps for the business.

While I personally may not be a fan, I give him his due respect. He dun good.

[MMH]

I cant say I was a fan of HHH the wrestler. He bored me to tears both during promos and in ring for a long long time. Most if not all of his great matches seem to need a gimmick attached to them and it always annoys me even now how they always throw his name into the mix when talking about the all time greats.

However, ever since he stepped away from the ring he generally has been damned good. He can tell a good story in his matches and as a special attraction he is perfect for that kind of role.

As mentioned above though his legacy may come from the corporate side of things. The student of the game tag he has is very true in real life and he is a man who sees wrestling in the right way by the looks of it, less sports entertainment and more of a sporting contest. I think WWE is in very safe hands with him in charge in the future.

[Cewsh]

For the record, let's have a show of hands to see who thought Evolution was completely awesome. Is it just me and Gangers?

[Kdestiny]

I actually quite enjoyed Evolution, I just thought they handled Orton breaking away from the group in the worst way.

The Triple H/Batista feud was really quite good in my opinion.

[Andy]

Triple H is brilliant, he will go down as one of the best. He has a huge list of great matches and the only serious criticism I have of him is that Raw was incredibly dull during his run as Champ on Raw from 03 to 05 roughly.

[Andy]

Also, the HIAC against Taker is one of the best matches ever. Suck on that.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

Evolution was brilliant. It had the best into video ever.

I think it's kind of obvious how I like Triple H. I can't say I agree with everything he's done in his career (like beng forced to the forefront.. but then again he was immensely popular). Even when it was "popular" to like Trips, I've never lost hope. And now look, he's "revolutionising" (allegedly) development and talent... so .. it was worth it.


P.s. he shouldn't have beat Lesnar.

[Cewsh]

He should have beaten Lesnar twice, and then again in an intergender match with Sable and Stephanie.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

Well when you put it like that, book it!

[Andy]

He should've only faced Lesnar once IMO.

[Tainted Eclipse]

Lesnar/Triple H is definitely a big name match and although there are tons of matches I'd rather see, it did have a big feel and to the "average fan" (whoever that even is anymore) Lesnar/Trips is probably toward the top of the list. All that given, STILL I think it was very silly to waste THREE of Lesnar's very limited dates on the same match, especially against a guy who has literally nothing to gain from it.

[Andy]

I still can't believe how Lesnar's run has gone. It could've been the making of someone, to beat him on his last date with the company. Everything with Cena apart from the result was booked perfectly, the first Trips match was perfect, then it went to shit again. The Punk stuff has been amazing so far though.

Anyway, back to Trips. Love the guy. :yes:

[chatty]

I actually liked Orton when he was in Evolution as the Legend Killer, I dont think he has ever been near as good since.

[RuneEdge]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHhk65h-zsw
Debatable, but he's probably right on this.

IMO he's a great worker and solid in the ring, and as long as he was working with someone else who's equally reliable, he can put on a good match. The problem with him IMO is that he's not creative in the ring. Guys like Punk, Bryan, Jericho, Cesaro, etc can come up with new stuff to keep their matches fresh, and occasionally pull out something unexpected which would leave you thinking "Wow, that was amazing". Triple H is not capable of that. Neither was Austin or The Rock but their charisma made up for it.
So maybe there's some truth in what Cornette's saying. Maybe Trips is as good as he is because he's worked with some of the best in the business.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

Triple H wasn't popular at all, that's why when he returned after injury the crowd went fucking mental, mental as they went for The Rock, mental as they went for Austin, or Hogan, or Flair before them.

To say Triple H lacks charisma is staggering. Yeah, the promos were long, ughh, and they were boring, ugghh, but the guy was a machine when it came to story telling in the ring. To psychology and all that. He put people over (sparingly, but still) and he put on good matches (dont believe Bret Hart).

To say Triple H lacks charisma is like saying John Cena lacks charisma. His promos are bullshit, boring and put people to sleep or fast forward too... Doesn't make him any less the face of the company.

[Cewsh]

Re: Rune

That's an interesting argument, though I'm not sure I agree with it. Triple H obvious subscribes to the old school NWA philosophy of matches, which revolve around slow pacing, wearing down body parts, and a few signature moves. His creativity has shown itself in the way he brings his various personas into that style and the various heel work that he came up with. Guys like Punk and Cesaro are part of a completely different and more recently style that prizes moves and counter moves over slowly wearing down opponents. I don't think that inherently makes any of them inferior. It's how good they are at their chosen style that merits consideration.

[RuneEdge]

Was that a response to my post? Cuz I didnt actually say that he doesnt have charisma.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

Triple H is not capable of that. Neither was Austin or The Rock but their charisma made up for it..

Sorry, I read that as you saying that Rock/Austin could get away with it due to charisma but Trips couldn't :dunno:

[RuneEdge]

Re: Rune

That's an interesting argument, though I'm not sure I agree with it. Triple H obvious subscribes to the old school NWA philosophy of matches, which revolve around slow pacing, wearing down body parts, and a few signature moves. His creativity has shown itself in the way he brings his various personas into that style and the various heel work that he came up with. Guys like Punk and Cesaro are part of a completely different and more recently style that prizes moves and counter moves over slowly wearing down opponents. I don't think that inherently makes any of them inferior. It's how good they are at their chosen style that merits consideration.

By "creative", I mean how some wrestlers can do something different or 'extra' in their match, rather than sticking to the same routine moveset. Guys like Cesaro, Jericho, Bryan, etc all constantly try to give you something new in each match. Every now and then, they'll do something cool that they dont normally do. Something like Cesaro catching a guy off the turnbuckle into a tilt-a-whirl, Orton would occasionally find a new way to hit the RKO, Jericho might do something like catch someone in a Codebreaker from a unexpected position. These guys dont want to give you the same moves everytime they go out.
If anything, Triple H on the other hand has dropped moves over the years. What happened to the running knee to the face, that he used to do? What about that spot where he'd duck a clothesline and snap a neckbreaker once he was behind them with their back turned?

Im not talking much away from Trips' in ring ability. He's solid and very reliable in the ring and in high pressure main event situations. But only as long as he's working with someone who's atleast better than himself. He's not going to elevate any match on his own. I just dont think he brings anything new in his matches.

I might only be talking for myself here but if I knew Brock and Trips were to have another rematch, I couldnt be more uninterested. But if Punk and Cena were about to have another one, I'd be really excited. Only because I know Punk and Cena will work together and try and give us something new. Remember Punk busting out the piledriver and Cena doing the hurricanrana for the win?

EDIT

Sorry, I read that as you saying that Rock/Austin could get away with it due to charisma but Trips couldn't :dunno:

That was more of me giving Rock and Austin credit for the incredible amount of charisma they had. I dont think many other wrestlers could get away with only having Rock and Austin's in ring ability and not their charisma.

[Cewsh]

By "creative", I mean how some wrestlers can do something different or 'extra' in their match, rather than sticking to the same routine moveset. Guys like Cesaro, Jericho, Bryan, etc all constantly try to give you something new in each match. Every now and then, they'll do something cool that they dont normally do. Something like Cesaro catching a guy off the turnbuckle into a tilt-a-whirl, Orton would occasionally find a new way to hit the RKO, Jericho might do something like catch someone in a Codebreaker from a unexpected position. These guys dont want to give you the same moves everytime they go out.

If anything, Triple H on the other hand has dropped moves over the years. What happened to the running knee to the face, that he used to do? What about that spot where he'd duck a clothesline and snap a neckbreaker once he was behind them with their back turned?

Im not talking much away from Trips' in ring ability. He's solid and very reliable in the ring and in high pressure main event situations. But only as long as he's working with someone who's atleast better than himself. He's not going to elevate anything on his own.

I don't feel like you got the gist of what I was saying. The reason Triple H does fewer moves isn't because he's less creative, it's because the style of wrestling he champions involves fewer moves. At this point in his career, he has a few signature moves that a guaranteed to get reactions from the crowd and are so ingrained in our consciousness as fans that he can get a lot of mileage out of people countering them, etc. Triple H didn't wrestle in Europe and Japan and Mexico before he came to WWE, his style is influenced purely by the WWE main event style and Ric Flair's NWA main event style. It's apples and oranges.

[RuneEdge]

I understand what you're saying, but you're just providing me a reason why Triple H's style is the way it is. I get that. I just dont find it as entertaining as others. And going back to the bit I edited into my previous post, would you want to see another Brock/Trips match? Im sure most people wouldnt. And if you think about why that's the case, its arguably because the match probably wont be any different to their previous two.

[Cewsh]

I understand what you're saying, but you're just providing me a reason why Triple H's style is the way it is. I get that. I just dont find it as entertaining as others. And going back to the bit I edited into my previous post, would you want to see another Brock/Trips match? Im sure most people wouldnt. And if you think about why that's the case, its arguably because the match probably wont be any different to their previous two.

That's exactly it, though. You prefer one style to another, but him lacking creativity isn't why he does things the way he does, no more than Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair lacking creativity is the reason that they do what they do. Hell, The Undertaker hasn't introduced a new move into his arsenal since he was the American Badass. They don't need to, they have great matches without the extra stuff.

And I would love to see more Triple H/Lesnar. The entire time the feud was running I couldn't for the life of me figure out why people were whining so much, when all three matches were fantastic and told a really compelling story.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

I understand what you're saying, but you're just providing me a reason why Triple H's style is the way it is. I get that. I just dont find it as entertaining as others. And going back to the bit I edited into my previous post, would you want to see another Brock/Trips match? Im sure most people wouldnt. And if you think about why that's the case, its arguably because the match probably wont be any different to their previous two.

Trips doesn't need to continuously reinvent himself, though. He is who he is. Like you say people like Punk or Bryan or Cesaro may "invent" new things to get a reaction but like Cewsh said, Triple H doesn't need that now... 10 years ago (well imagine each being at a relevant "prime" age anyway) a Brock vs Triple H match would probably be a lot different and maybe throw new things out - but now you'd be silly to expect that given age and injuries.

And it's not really fair to compare stars of today to Trips today (as you do with the Brock feud), he had many good feuds with Foley (who isn't a technically better wrestler, hell I'd even say he wasn't as charismatic) and The Rock, Austin, 'Taker, Orton (ugh, switchy title feud), Batista, Goldberg, Jericho, Angle... very few of those guys had "new things" every other week... He and Taker are the last, really, of the "old school" breed - pretty much. Hence the whole "ending" to their WM match.

:dunno:

[RuneEdge]

I don't necessarily mean a new move. Just new high spots or false finishes or something, basically anything that doesn't leave me thinking I'm watching the same match all over again. To be honest, Taker is some what the same. Like I said, its not that Triple H cant have a good match cuz he can, as long as he works with someone else who's also a top worker (same as with Taker). I don't want to make it sound like Trips is the only one, but there are a few guys on the roster like him who don't innovate in the ring, and just go through the motions.
Would I expect a series of matches between Ryback and Taker to be entertaining (emphasis on "series")? Probably not. Would I expect much from a Trips/Ryback series? Again, probably not. After the initial match, I cant see the following ones being any different. Now if Punk and Taker were to have a rematch, for some reason I can instantly imagine it being interesting. Mainly because I trust Punk (along with Taker) to come together and create something that was at least as good as the previous match but without giving me the same thing all over again.

If I ever get excited for a Triple H/Lesnar or a Trips/Taker match again, it would probably be because of the build up, the significance (titles), or the stipulation. Not because of the match itself.
Again, that's just me though.

[Cewsh]

I think the Triple H/Undertaker Hell in a Cell match is one of the most innovative uses of wrestling as a backdrop for cinema that I've ever seen. They're so far beyond coming up with fancy new suplexes at this point.

I get what you're saying about appreciating the new style more, and I do too to a certain extent. But I think you're saying more about your preference in matches than you are about Triple H's skill.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

We're talking about going through the motions and all I can think about is Orton and Cena :dunno:

[Cewsh]

We're talking about going through the motions and all I can think about is Orton and Cena :dunno:

I actually don't think that Cena ever just goes through the motions. He's been part of some really inventive finishes, and a lot of different styles of match. Orton is definitely guilty of that, though.

[Hero!]

Triple H isn't great in my mind, he is good though.

His HIAC match with Taker at Wrestlemania might be the most overrated match I know though.


I'll stay thanks.

I just got through watching his DVD and I rewatched his matches at WM with Taker and his match at Wrestlemania 27 was definitely the better of the two.

:yes: The HIAC was very try-hard. The match at 27 felt so much more like a brutal fight between two god damn legends. It was great. The cell, not so much.

[RuneEdge]

Trips/Taker in HIAC is easily one of my top 5 matches, ever. I'm not knocking Trips ability to put on a good match. I think if we had a Triple H vs The Rock in this day and age, I'd be really hyped to see it. But this goes back to what I (or Cornette) was initially saying, about how he needs to work with a top guy to put together a top match.
I wouldnt trust Trips with Bigshow, or Ryback, or Del Rio, but I wouldnt mind seeing Punk wrestle any of those guys. I cant really articulate how I feel about those matches exactly. I just find the idea of those with Triple H a bit dull.
But like you said, Cewsh, that's probably just my taste.

[Jimmy Zero]

HHH was never a guy that did it for me. He never seemed as big, or as great, to me as WWE was telling us he was during his days as Numero Uno. That's probably partly due to the fact that I didn't become a big fan of pro-wrestling until Austin's rise and the Attitude Era, but to me, HHH never held my attention the way guys like Foley, Rock, Austin, and Undertaker did. With HHH, it just felt so forced. His matches, though I wouldn't call them bad, were slow plodding affairs that I didn't think had the amount of intensity HHH and his opponent were trying to convey. His promos would always put me to sleep, too. "I am the game-ah! I am so tough-ah!" and on and on and on for 20 minutes. No thanks. After a while, I'd just flip the channel and wait for HHH to go away so I could watch Jericho, Benoit, Angle, Booker, RVD.

[MMH]

The Undertaker hasn't introduced a new move into his arsenal since he was the American Badass.

Hells Gate/Gogoplata :cool:

Point still stands though certainly.

[Tainted Eclipse]

I remember when he first did the Hell's Gate it was on BIG DADDY V and me and my friend watching the show were laughing about how it was an improvisation because V was too fat to be put in the Triangle Choke, which is what it looked like he was going for at first. I'm not entirely convinced that's not actually how the move came about.

[Tainted Eclipse]

:yes: The HIAC was very try-hard. The match at 27 felt so much more like a brutal fight between two god damn legends. It was great. The cell, not so much.

Yeah, the HIAC was no doubt WWE's vision of "wrestling as cinema" writ large, but in keeping with being a paragon of WWE philosophy it was overdone to shit. I love theatrical wrestling done well -- Cena, Lawler, Henry to name a few who do it great -- but that Trips/Taker cell match was like WWE fanfiction.

[Andy]

NO. NO NO NO NO NO.

Trips/Taker in the Cell is incredible and I won't hear a bad word said about it.

[Hero!]

Yeah, the HIAC was no doubt WWE's vision of "wrestling as cinema" writ large, but in keeping with being a paragon of WWE philosophy it was overdone to shit. I love theatrical wrestling done well -- Cena, Lawler, Henry to name a few who do it great -- but that Trips/Taker cell match was like WWE fanfiction.

Sweet Jesus, someone else who understands. The match was so horribly overbooked that it ruins the actual wrestling aspect. Their mania 27 match was fantastic for the fact that they just went out there and tried to kill each other.

[Andy]

I'm going to explode.

[Greed]

My favorite HHH opponent has always been Taker. Their chemistry and the way they work together has always resulted in being something very watchable and entertaining. I think the Taker/HHH match at X7 is one of the most under rated match that needs to get more credit but does not. What they put on ten years later is always talked about and for good reason.

I respect the hell out of HHH. Perhaps the 03 title run was too long, but the belt was treated with prestige and built up it's value.

HHH bashers annoy me.

[Gangers]

That X7 match was ok, but is largely remembered for being fucking absurd because it has what I suspect is the longest ref bump in history, around 15 minutes.

[chatty]

That X7 match was ok, but is largely remembered for being fucking absurd because it has what I suspect is the longest ref bump in history, around 15 minutes.

Yeah they should have just made it a No Rules as the build up worked for them going in that direction anyway and thats what they pretty much did but I suppose they already had a hardcore match and street fight advertised on the card and Rock/Austin got changed to No DQ on the night or just the week before anyway, plus a TLC which is basically no rules so i guess they didn't want all the atches to effectively have the same stipulations.

[The Law]

Yeah, I assume they didn't have it No DQ or anything was because there was already Rock vs. Austin No DQ/No Count Out, Vince/Shane in a Street Fight, and Raven/Kane/Big Show Hardcore Rules on that show. It was an absurdly long ref bump, but for me it didn't really hurt the match. In the moment, you really just forgot about the fact that the referee was knocked out.

I don't see Taker/HHH from WM 28 as "overbooked," or at least not in the way that people usually use that term. Usually that refers to too much stuff happening, run-ins, a Dusty Finish or the match being re-started. "Melodramatic" might be a more applicable term, although I thought that given the stakes of the match the drama involved was appropriate. Watching Taker get the shit kicked out of him like that was heart-wrenching. Seriously, dude took like 15 straight hard chair shots to his back.

I feel like that match told one of the best stories ever in wrestling. You have two legends who were great rivals. Both on their last legs. Triple H desperately wants to beat Undertaker, be the one to end the streak, get that one last notch in his belt, and in the process, finally and definitely step out of Shawn Michaels' shadow. Because for all his accomplishments, he knows everyone (including Taker) thinks Shawn was always better. Taker's Streak had grown to legendary proportions the three prior years with the two classics against Shawn and the brutal fight with HHH the year before. So we have these two great rivals, going at it at Wrestlemania, with Shawn as the referee, and then we throw them in the Cell, just to add another layer of legendary and epicness. Triple H gets the advantage and completely decimates Taker. Beats him with the steps, with a chair, everything he's got. And Taker just won't stay down, because Wrestlemania is the one night a year where he's just unbeatable.

Shawn loves and respects both these guys and can't stand to see the damage they're doing to each other. I absolutely loved the dialogue between them during the match: "End it or I will" "I'm going to stop it" "DON'T stop it." Taker choking out Shawn to keep him from stopping the match was fantastic and made total sense at the time. The SCM/Pedigree near fall was about as good a near fall as they've ever done during the Streak (maybe HHH hitting Taker with the Tombstone the year before was better). And the shot of Taker stepping on the sledgehammer when HHH was trying to grab it was great. Taker wins, HHH can rest easily without ever having to wonder if he could have broken the streak (because he couldn't have, Taker took his best shot twice in a row and survived).

I can agree that it toed the line between epic and melodramatic, but for me it didn't cross over. Those two guys are such legends and that match was of such importance that I think they earned the right to have that kind of drama. That match was telling a story that started at Wrestlemania 24 (when Michaels retired Flair). That's really four years of building to that match. Not just any match should be treated like that, and in fact almost no match should. But this was a very acceptable exception to that rule.