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StoneColdChris
July 9th, 2013, 10:32 AM
Thought this would be a good idea for a thread: Wrestler's who just don't click together in the ring.

For example I don't recall Austin and Jericho ever having a good match together, I was extremely let down by their Vengeance 01 match, and their NWO 02 match was bad(at least in my opinion, one of my friends like that match) . Orton/HHH is another pairing that, well besides their LMS at No Mercy, just had bad matches with each other.

OD50
July 9th, 2013, 10:48 AM
Lots of people was dissappointed with HBK/Perfect at SummerSlam '93. I definitely expected way more from that match myself. Hard to judge by just one match though.

I remember thinking that Ric Flair and Eddie Guerrero had really bad chemistry when they wrestled at Road/Hog Wild.

Rey Mysterio/Ric Flair really didn't click. I remember they had a really awkward match on one of those Panama Beach spring break Nitro's.

Bill Goldberg/William Regal. :lol:

Slutty Macwhoreface
July 9th, 2013, 10:52 AM
I don't really remember the HHH/Orton matches being bad by any means.

Jacknife
July 9th, 2013, 11:06 AM
Kane and Orton for some reason seemed to not click to me.

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 11:29 AM
Austin and Taker didn't have a really good match that I can remember.

JP
July 9th, 2013, 11:30 AM
Kane and Orton for some reason seemed to not click to me.

Whaaaaaaaa?

I loved that feud. Only time I've been to a live show they had my favourite match there too.

Mills
July 9th, 2013, 11:35 AM
Austin and Taker didn't have a really good match that I can remember.

Rewatch summer slam 1998 I believe, highway to hell, they had a very good match.

Booker T / Kane was bad, so was RVD/HHH

Atty
July 9th, 2013, 11:38 AM
Booker/Jericho.

They had a couple decent matches, but this was at a time when they should have been "HOLYSHITGOOD" together in the ring. They never seemed to click together and just went through the motions, hitting their signature moves.

Chris
July 9th, 2013, 11:42 AM
Edge and Kane always stand out to me, though I think the sheer number of times they wrestled was a factor. Still, they had a number of mediocre matches together.

Austin and Jericho had a couple of decent TV matches in 2001, but it's one of those pairings that should have been great but never was.

Slutty Macwhoreface
July 9th, 2013, 12:02 PM
I thought the Edge/Kane Goldrush match was awesome.

The Law
July 9th, 2013, 12:14 PM
I definitely agree on Austin and Taker. I did rewatch Summerslam 1998 recently and found it pretty boring. None of their matches ever really clicked with me. The "punch kick" style isn't something I'm terribly fond of, so that's a big part of it. I feel like I enjoyed their Fully Loaded 1999 match the most of all their matches. Those guys fought each other like 10 times on pay per view over the course of a couple years. It was ridiculous.

I'm not a fan of the most of the matches Triple H and Orton had. The only one I really remember liking was the No Mercy 2007 Last Man Standing Match. That's another combination they used way too many times.

Atty
July 9th, 2013, 12:21 PM
Edge and Kane always stand out to me, though I think the sheer number of times they wrestled was a factor. Still, they had a number of mediocre matches together.

Austin and Jericho had a couple of decent TV matches in 2001, but it's one of those pairings that should have been great but never was.

I'd mention Edge/Booker before Edge/Kane.

Austin/Jericho is a good shout. They were great in the tag match together, but most of their matches were mired by odd things that kept it from coming together. In their triple threat with Benoit, Benoit broke his neck. Jericho suffered a concussion in his match with Rock immediately prior to the unification match.

The No Way Out match was like watching a puppy put to sleep, but also played like all they knew was the n.W.o was going to come out and had no clue when. Also played like neither was happy that the match was just to set up n.W.o. And Austin was only a couple months from walking out, with his lack of interest showing.

They had a good cage match, but I always wanted them to have a showing when both actually cared.

OD50
July 9th, 2013, 12:30 PM
How about Edge and Christian? I remember being underwhelmed by their 2001 feud/matches. Haven't watched them in 12 years though so I could definitely feel different if I watched them today.

The Law
July 9th, 2013, 12:33 PM
How about Taker and Kane? I rewatched their Wrestlemania 14 match recently and realized I had been overrating it in my head for years. Those guys fought like 1,000 times over the years and the only match of theirs I actually liked was the Night of Champions one where Kane kicked Taker's ass.

Batista and Booker had a lot of bad matches against each other. Legit personal heat might have been a problem there.

I'll also nominate Big Show and Cena. Those guys fought so many times, and it just never clicked for me.

Oh, and Matt and Jeff Hardy. Both times they split them their matches were disappointing.

Atty
July 9th, 2013, 12:36 PM
I loved Show/Cena at WM 20. One of my favorite Cena matches but, aside from that, have pretty much hated all their other showings.

StoneColdChris
July 9th, 2013, 12:39 PM
How about Edge and Christian? I remember being underwhelmed by their 2001 feud/matches. Haven't watched them in 12 years though so I could definitely feel different if I watched them today.

Their last match, I think on a commercial free raw in 2010, was pretty good.

Also, wasn't a fan of most of the HBK/HHH matches(especially their cell match). IMO, the only good matches they had were SS 02 and the Raw match in Dec 03.

Edit: I'll add Batista and JBL as well

Atty
July 9th, 2013, 12:41 PM
And their Mania main event?

StoneColdChris
July 9th, 2013, 12:45 PM
And their Mania main event?

The triple threat with Benoit? If so, I'll add that too cuz I do like that match as well, but I was talking about HHH/HBK in singles matches.

Slutty Macwhoreface
July 9th, 2013, 12:46 PM
Dont forget Shawn/HHH for the European title back in the day.

Atty
July 9th, 2013, 12:47 PM
Brock/Goldberg is clearly the winner.


Or Disco Inferno/Anybody.

Kneeneighbor
July 9th, 2013, 12:57 PM
Im okay with 3 hour raw but I do often tune in after it starts.

Id do 3 hr RaW
Smack down is a B show of other stuff going on. Midcard, divas, etc.
That way guys are not filling the 3 hr Raw and then showing up doing the same match again on Smackdown.

wardy
July 9th, 2013, 1:11 PM
I dunno man. I feel like they had really good chemistry together.

The Law
July 9th, 2013, 1:12 PM
Brock/Goldberg is clearly the winner.


Or Disco Inferno/Anybody.

Given the circumstances of the Brock/Goldberg match, I don't think there's much basis to blame that one on chemistry. They were both leaving the company and didn't give a shit, and the crowd totally crapped on them. We don't really know what kind of match they would have had if properly motivated.

And Disco actually had a really good match with Dean Malenko at Bash at the Beach 1996. I mean, having a good match with Dean Malenko isn't that much of a feat, but this match is actually really awesome: Malenko is pissed at Disco because he keeps interrupting his matches to dance. So Malenko beats Disco's ass for the first couple minutes of the match, then Disco slowly gets his legs under him and makes a comeback, to the point that he almost scores the huge upset. The announcers and the crowd were eating it up by the end. Malenko ends up outsmarting Disco and getting him in a cradle, but Disco earned everyone's respect. Unfortunately, they never followed up. Here's the match:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ooDTcLiA2k

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 2:05 PM
It's not that Taker/Austin had bad matches, it's just that had so many matches and none of them were more than decent. Probably highlighted by the fact that Austin, and to an extend Taker, were both feuding with people either side of their feud that they had amazing chemistry with. Bret, Michaels and then Rock, Trips Angle for Austin, Michaels and Foley then Kane for Taker.

Also I've never thought any of the Kane/Taker feuds have produced any brilliant wrestling matches but they're always a spectacle.

I never enjoyed any of Kane and Cena's matches. Edge and Christian is a good shout.

chatty
July 9th, 2013, 2:05 PM
Warrior/Hercules - that was more down to some wise ass thinking these guys could work matches and not bore the crowd to death and this is in the mindset of Warrior matches which last about six minutes including entrance.

Hogan/Sid - I thought the WM8 match was pretty dire

Nash/HHH - cant remember them doing anything good together, not for the love of trying. I'd have to watch them again but I always remember being unimpressed.

chatty
July 9th, 2013, 2:06 PM
Rock/Cena - other than a couple of bits and bobs in the build up I found most of their two year feud massively boring and the matches average at best. I can see this one being a one based on opinion though as the matches seem to get rated highly by some.

Kneeneighbor
July 9th, 2013, 2:12 PM
Warrior/Hercules - that was more down to some wise ass thinking these guys could work matches and not bore the crowd to death and this is in the mindset of Warrior matches which last about six minutes including entrance.


In fairness to the Warrior if he had walked down to the ring like everyone else he could have pushed that to 8 min. ;)

JP
July 9th, 2013, 2:15 PM
Nash/HHH - cant remember them doing anything good together, not for the love of trying. I'd have to watch them again but I always remember being unimpressed.

I really enjoyed their HiaC match and I thought the Ladder match to end Nash's career was outstanding.

Atty
July 9th, 2013, 2:17 PM
Their HIAC is underrated.

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 3:37 PM
Yeah, I really did like that ladder match as well, like JP said. It was better than it had any right to be.

Bennedy
July 9th, 2013, 3:58 PM
Their HIAC is underrated.

Totally. I think I have fonder memories than most as it was the first HIAC match I ever saw, so it was all new and exciting to me.

chatty
July 9th, 2013, 3:59 PM
Yeah i might be underestimating HIAC as I had big expectations and HIAC wasn't totally played to death at the time.

chatty
July 9th, 2013, 4:00 PM
Actually Ive just clicked that I'm thinking of the HHH v Shawn HIAC and not Nash. That was was pretty dire but again it might just be that I expected more.

Vice
July 9th, 2013, 4:34 PM
Benoit and Guerrero had fairly shit chemistry, I'd say. They never produced any baaaaad matches, but considering the sheer amount of talent between the two of them, their matches were incredibly lackluster.

I also find the Japanese Chinlock match very overrated.

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 4:58 PM
Benoit and Jericho too.

It was presented as THE pairing so often, but it never produced matches on that level.

JP
July 9th, 2013, 5:26 PM
Benoit and Jericho too.

It was presented as THE pairing so often, but it never produced matches on that level.

The Ladder Match?

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 5:33 PM
The Ladder Match?

Outrageously overrated. I think I gave it a 75 or something along those lines when I reviewed it last year.

It's a product of that time and has not aged well.

Atty
July 9th, 2013, 6:02 PM
And here's Cewsh to throw out names for shock value and cite his rating of a match post Benoit concussion as gospel.

:rolleyes:

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 6:08 PM
And here's Cewsh to throw out names for shock value and cite his rating of a match post Benoit concussion as gospel.

:rolleyes:

:lol:

Benoit's issues have nothing to do with it, and this isn't a fresh new opinion from me. It wasn't awful or anything. It was good. But that's all it was. Here's how I reviewed it a year ago:


Cewsh: This is one of those matches that any smark worth his Triple H hate can reference as a landmark in wrestling history. In fact, if you cut open the internet wrestling community, this match may very well be running through its veins. A ladder match? Jericho? Benoit? Midcard title? SPOTS?! MUAH!" That's not to say that they wouldn't be right to feel that way either, because this match was hugely lauded at the time and was one of my favorite matches for a long time. So coming back to it now, I expected to be totally blown away by a great match between two great wrestlers.

And I wasn't.

Don't get me wrong, this is a fun match. Jericho seems to be trying so hard to channel Shawn Michaels here that he may as well have come out with jingly mirrors on his pants and Benoit shows off his selling ability, which is often lost in the praise that was always heaped on the man. But watching it now, it becomes clear that this is not the right kind of match for these two people to be having. Benoit seems uncomfortable with the ladder spots, Jericho seems a step too slow and comes off a bit too flat to be the spark plug, and very quickly into this match things just become a rote rattling off of spots. Though, and this must be said, there are some incredibly memorably spots here, from the Walls of Jericho on top of the ladder (which may be the most contrived move in wrestling history) to the stiffest chair shot I have ever seen in my entire life, which promptly turned Benoit into a pile of goo.

But at the end of the day, when these two totter off to the back and head on to get get ready for the next in the line of 1,000 matches they had that year, what they left in the ring here was good. Not great. Just good. 16 year old me is so disappointed.

78 out of 100.

Slutty Macwhoreface
July 9th, 2013, 6:09 PM
Post concussion? I think Benoit's issues ran a bit deeper than concussions.

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 6:13 PM
In what way was the ladder match overrated? In fact how is it rated? I rate it as one of the best ladder matches of all time. Their match at Backlash was really good and the Judgement Day one was good too. I really enjoyed the 2/3 falls match at Summerslam too. In fact, I would go as far as saying Benoit/Jericho is an example of two guys who had superb chemistry. They had consistently good to great matches any time they had a match as opponents or a team. Really odd choice here IMO.

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 6:14 PM
In what way was the ladder match overrated? In fact how is it rated? I rate it as one of the best ladder matches of all time. Their match at Backlash was really good and the Judgement Day one was good too. I really enjoyed the 2/3 falls match at Summerslam too. In fact, I would go as far as saying Benoit/Jericho is an example of two guys who had superb chemistry. They had consistently good to great matches any time they had a match as opponents or a team. Really odd choice here IMO.

As a team they were great, I'll agree there. But I just don't see it in their matches. Part of it may be that it immediately invites comparison to Benoit and Angle, which very few things hold a candle to in this regard.

thesamuelcooke
July 9th, 2013, 6:14 PM
Sorry Cewsh, you rated that Ladder Match around 5-10 points too low! The submissions match at Judgement Day 2000 may be worthy of that score but the Ladder Match for me is in the 80s. Not MOTY or one of the best matches ever, but great anyway.

You, my friend, can... ahem...

PROVE ME WRONG! (#HEELTURN!)


except you can't, that match is great :cool:

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 6:16 PM
Sorry Cewsh, you rated that Ladder Match around 5-10 points too low! The submissions match at Judgement Day 2000 may be worthy of that score but the Ladder Match for me is in the 80s. Not MOTY or one of the best matches ever, but great anyway.

You, my friend, can... ahem...

PROVE ME WRONG! (#HEELTURN!)


except you can't, that match is great :cool:

I'm not saying that my opinion is definitive here by any means. But have you guys watched it recently?

The_Mike
July 9th, 2013, 6:22 PM
Cewsh, don't make me un-favourite-poster you.

thesamuelcooke
July 9th, 2013, 6:22 PM
I will watch it tonight. Maybe it will be nostalgia that thinks the match is great (the Wrestlemania X-7 effect), or maybe we just share a differing opinion.

Nothing can touch the Angle/Austin Summerslam match of that year for me. WWF/E MOTY 2K1 right guys?

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 6:24 PM
Cewsh, don't make me un-favourite-poster you.

:cry:

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 6:30 PM
Yeah I watched it a little while ago. As I mentioned in the Benoit thread, I found it fairly uncomfortable viewing watching the insane chair shot in particular.

But the match is still amazing. It has a couple of the most memorable spots ever, ladder match or otherwise, plus a load of other great spots.

What you have to remember is that this was a period where the PPV cards were absolutely stacked. None of the matches I mentioned went more than 15 minutes apart from the ladder match. The ladder math is a classic and two of the other three are very good in my opinion. The ladder match went 18 minutes which is far less than say the Trips/Rock ladder match or the Cena/Edge TLC but it was just as good if not better IMO.

The_Mike
July 9th, 2013, 6:30 PM
:cry:

Tough love I'm afraid. That ladder match is sacrosanct.

Actually I haven't watched it for about two years and probably should give it another looksee, but two years wasn't that long ago and I really felt it held up well. Subsequent ladder matches outshone it in spectacle but I always felt the chemistry is what made this match so special. It's interesting to me that somebody I have very similar taste to found it to be lacking.

thesamuelcooke
July 9th, 2013, 6:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rkKiRs9wpU

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 6:31 PM
I will watch it tonight. Maybe it will be nostalgia that thinks the match is great (the Wrestlemania X-7 effect), or maybe we just share a differing opinion.

Nothing can touch the Angle/Austin Summerslam match of that year for me. WWF/E MOTY 2K1 right guys?

Hmm I'd put Rock/Austin and TLCII ahead of it personally. Possibly Trips/Austin and the tag match from Raw too.

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 6:32 PM
I don't know what it was about it that didn't work for me. I think it's largely a match built on two spots, (the Walls of the ladder and the Suicide Dive chairshot,) and the rest is all a recycled mish mash from a million other ladder matches. Its was good and a lot of fun, like I said, but I just don't see where it's a classic. I don't think I even had it as the best match on that card.

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 6:37 PM
A million others? This was like the fourth or fifth ladder match in WWE PPV history.

What match did you have above it? The Rumble match? I probably wouldn't disagree with that, it's certainly my favourite Rumble. The WWE and Tag title matches are good too but not better than the ladder match.

thesamuelcooke
July 9th, 2013, 6:38 PM
Hmm I'd put Rock/Austin and TLCII ahead of it personally. Possibly Trips/Austin and the tag match from Raw too.

The Summerslam main event seems to be forgotten with all the above matches getting better acclaim. The Triple H/Austin and Raw tag match will probably be on a similar level (high 80s-low 90s) to it, with TLC II, Rock/Austin and Benoit/Austin on a SD in Edmonton being a touch below those.

This is maybe something for another thread though...

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 6:40 PM
That was the 11th ladder match in televised WWE history. And in that same year there were four others, not including TLC matches.

And I had the tag match rated a few points higher.

The Jericho/Benoit vs. Triple H/Austin match would be mid 90s for me at this point, though I do need to rewatch it.

thesamuelcooke
July 9th, 2013, 6:48 PM
Top WWE Matches of 2001 (off the top of my head)

1. Angle/Austin - Summerslam - 96
2. HHH/Austin - No Way Out - 93
3. Benoit/Jericho vs Power Trip - Raw - 91
4. Benoit/Austin - Smackdown - 91
5. TLC II - Wrestlemania - 88
6. Rock/Austin - Wrestlemania - 87
7. Jericho/Benoit - Royal Rumble - 84
8. Angle/Benoit - Wrestlemania - 83
9. Jericho/Rock - No Mercy - 81
10. Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - 81

Many in need of a rewatch.

Cewsh
July 9th, 2013, 6:50 PM
Yeah, I gave a rating in the 90s to Benoit/Austin on Smackdown. Phenomenal match.

Vice
July 9th, 2013, 6:53 PM
Benoit/Austin is the most fun I have ever had watching a televised match.

chatty
July 9th, 2013, 6:55 PM
Just rewatched it and I actualy enjoyed it better than I remembered and its been a fair while - last time might have even been live. That said I never thought it was a great match first time round, very good but not great but I think I would say it was great after this watch.

Some crazy spots though, the suicide dive into the chair, the see saw over the rope, the ladder suplex from the corner, top of ladder walls, suplex to the outside, top of ladder headbutt, drops from the ladder to the ropes and they are both working very stiff as well. Its a pretty brutal match, way more than I remembered.

Only real criticisms of it probably comes through a lack of time, they never really give a pause for dramatic effect and they cram a lot in but as said earlier its shorter than the usual big ladder matches so they never really had that option.

thesamuelcooke
July 9th, 2013, 6:57 PM
The Austin/Angle Summerslam match and Benoit/Austin on SmackDown! have to be two of the most underrated matches of the early part of the decade, surely in the WWF/E at least?

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 7:07 PM
That was the 11th ladder match in televised WWE history. And in that same year there were four others, not including TLC matches.

And I had the tag match rated a few points higher.


Not too sure what point you're making here. This was the first one of that year and it was easily the best. Of the 10 that came before it, only six were one on one. So it was still a pretty new concept and these guys came up with totally unique and memorable spots which is an achievement when you consider there's only so many things you can do with a ladder match. Yeah you have repetition with guys getting pushed off the ladder and diving off it but that's not only inevitable but vital to the match.

I dunno, I can't really make any more arguments for it, I just thought it was great. Surprised you rated the tag match that highly. It's really good fun but it's a 10 minute opener, nothing spectacular.

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 7:16 PM
Also to throw my two cents in on Angle/Austin - I think it's great. The reason people might think it's underrated is because it comes from a period that people are generally not fond of. The finish also prevents it from being right up there as a truly great match IMO.

Really need to watch Benoit/Austin again but off the top of my head my 2001 list would go something like this.

1. Rock/Austin
2. Trips/Austin
3. Raw tag
4. TLCII
5. Benoit/Angle Mania
6. Jericho/Benoit
7. Austin/Angle
8. Rumble match
9. Rock/Angle
10. Rock/Jericho

wardy
July 9th, 2013, 7:38 PM
I thought everybody knew Austin/Angle was awesome. Had no idea it was underrated at all.

Tainted Eclipse
July 9th, 2013, 7:39 PM
no way is austin/angle underrated, it's rated very highly and talked up by just about everyone. one of the few of those beloved early 2000s wwe matches to warrant the praise really.

Andy
July 9th, 2013, 7:58 PM
Just rewatched Austin/Benoit. It's how I remember it really - it's really good, especially for SD, but it wouldn't make my top 10 for 2001.

Beer-Belly
July 10th, 2013, 12:17 AM
Did everyone that mentioned Austin/Taker forget about their match in '97 at "A Cold Day in Hell"?

JP
July 10th, 2013, 3:17 AM
Outrageously overrated. I think I gave it a 75 or something along those lines when I reviewed it last year.

It's a product of that time and has not aged well.

:getout:

Ringo
July 10th, 2013, 3:38 AM
Austin/Angle MOTY for sure :yes:

Benoit/Angle from Mania above it!? OH ANDY :nono: :)

Beer-Belly
July 10th, 2013, 3:43 AM
How has Austin/Angle not been on an Austin DVD yet? That's the best singles match of his heel run.

Andy
July 10th, 2013, 7:47 AM
Austin/Angle MOTY for sure :yes:

Benoit/Angle from Mania above it!? OH ANDY :nono: :)

Yeah. The Benoit/Angle match was absolutely perfect for what it was. It's never going to go down as one of the all time best matches because of the time constraints but the 14 minutes it got was pretty much wrestling perfection.

Don't get me wrong, Austin/Angle was brilliant, I watched it again recently, but this was WWE/F's best ever year for match quality.

the_man_diva
July 11th, 2013, 3:58 AM
Beth Phoenix Vs. Mickie James ... SHOULD have been good, but a lot of the times their matches felt awkward. A few of their early matches together had more than their fair share of botches, almost like they just couldn't communicate or something.

Someone above mentioned Matt Hardy Vs. Jeff Hardy, I very much agree. Some people make better partners than rivals in the ring ... and like someone else mentioned above, Edge Vs. Christian during the Invasion storyline.

Some others that didn't seem to click for me, although on paper they sounded like they should have ...

Mr. McMahon Vs. Hulk Hogan
Triple H. Vs. Kevin Nash
Lita Vs. Jacqueline
Shane McMahon Vs. Kane
Linda McMahon ... with ANYONE
Booker T. Vs. Batista

Atty
July 11th, 2013, 1:33 PM
And in that same year there were four others, not including TLC matches.


So? That was the first PPV of the year, so it came before the other four. Very odd thing to even mention, really.

Cewsh
July 11th, 2013, 2:18 PM
Not really. It was in the middle of a pretty active run of ladder matches and Andy said that there had only ever been 3 or 4 before it.

Andy
July 11th, 2013, 2:43 PM
I said it was only the fourth or fifth WWE PPV ladder match which, without looking it up, must only be one or two off.

And it's not in the middle of a big run, it's right at the start. Before this one you had like six one on one ladder matches since like 1993 or 94 and they were pretty well spread out. Through 2001 and 02 they probably added at least that many again if not more and this one is still the best of that time period. Not including the tag one, it's much more memorable than the Trips/Rock one and probably only second to Shawn/Razor. It's still in the top 3 WWE one on one ladder matches for me.

Cewsh
July 11th, 2013, 2:44 PM
Fair enough. I wasn't making some grand statement. I was trying trying to put in context. It was a ladder match happy time.

The Law
July 11th, 2013, 9:35 PM
Late to the party, but I just watched the Benoit/Jericho Ladder Match. I thought it was really good, but not quite a classic. My rating would probably be ****, which is great but not quite in Match of the Year territory. Here are my random thoughts:

-Ladder matches were getting to be overexposed at this point. I don't differentiate between Ladder Matches and TLC matches, so this was the 12th televised ladder match in WWF history, with nine of them having happened in the prior two years. There had also been several in WCW and ECW, so the typical wrestling observer had seen plenty.

-The spots in this match were pretty good, but nothing groundbreaking. The ones that stood out to be were the monster chair shot on the Suicide Dive, the Walls of Jericho on the ladder, and the missed Diving Headbutt off the ladder. The headbutt and chair shot made me a little queasy, knowing that Benoit's brain injuries probably contributed to his murders. They were both impressive spots that I wouldn't recommend anyone ever doing. The WoJ on the ladder I didn't like, because you could see Benoit positioning himself for it. There just wasn't really any natural way for that to happen.

-The match was extremely crisp. No botches, no poor timing, both guys were in the right place at the right time throughout.

-Likewise, they avoided a major pitfall of ladder matches: No slow climbing. They always timed things so that it seemed natural for the climber to get thrown off.

-As far as story, there didn't really seem to be one for me beyond "these guys hate each other and will do insane things to win the IC Title." Nothing wrong with that, but no bonus points for storytelling.

I don't really have a ton to say beyond that. There wasn't anything wrong with the match, it was damn good. There wasn't anything particularly great about it for me either, it was just solid to good in all respects. It was a very good match, but for me no the all-time classic that some have billed it as.

Defrost
July 11th, 2013, 11:27 PM
Sharknado and the dude from Beverly Hills 90210 wielding a chainsaw

Mills
July 12th, 2013, 2:26 AM
Mr Chippendale? Yeah right

Bluegunn
July 12th, 2013, 4:23 AM
Lots of people was dissappointed with HBK/Perfect at SummerSlam '93. I definitely expected way more from that match myself. Hard to judge by just one match though.

I remember thinking that Ric Flair and Eddie Guerrero had really bad chemistry when they wrestled at Road/Hog Wild.

Rey Mysterio/Ric Flair really didn't click. I remember they had a really awkward match on one of those Panama Beach spring break Nitro's.

Bill Goldberg/William Regal. :lol:
I think this was a great match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trwvyxzfmy0

Anyway, Warrior and Andre never had good matches. May have been great on paper.

mr sabu
July 12th, 2013, 4:53 AM
the great kahli and everyone not named Daniel Bryan or Batista

Andy
July 12th, 2013, 9:03 AM
How many ladder matches have amazing story telling in them? I think the best you can do is really portray that either A) these guys hate each other or B) these guys will do anything cos that title/contract is so important to them, or both of the above. Is there any ladder match that tells a completely different story?

Cena/Edge is a highly thought of one but beyond the fairly pointless stip of if Cena loses he leaves Raw, it was essentially another mix of two guys hating each other and willing to do anything for the title.

And there's nothing wrong with that of course but I don't think there's a whole lot else you can do with a ladder match.

Chris
July 12th, 2013, 9:54 AM
I don't know why Benoit/Jericho has even been mentioned in this thread. Even if you don't think their ladder match was a classic (and I'm firmly in the camp of those who think that it was), to say that they had bad chemistry is mental. Their matches together were always intense, crisp and got the crowd invested. When I think of bad chemistry, I think of Regal/Edge. It was a complete clash of styles when they feuded over the Intercontinental Title. Batista/Mr Kennedy is another one - just really boring matches. Benoit/Jericho should not be anywhere near this list. I'm not even sure about Benoit/Guerrero. Their borefest at One Night Stand wasn't typical for them, regardless of the fact that they never had an out-and-out classic together in WWE.

I guess it depends on how you weigh up the impact of certain matches and whether you think chemistry is something that is fixed. When I talked about Austin/Jericho earlier in the thread, I acknowledged that they had some decent throwaway singles matches in 2001. But I think their dire bouts at Vengeance 2001 and No Way Out 2002 far outweigh a couple of TV matches. Sometimes on the night, two guys who normally wouldn't match up well can do ok. If this was 2002, Undertaker/Triple H would probably be on this list. But the style of matches they've had at Wrestlemania over the past few years were very different to the matches they had at the tail-end of the attitude era. Under certain conditions, they can hit a home run.

thesamuelcooke
July 12th, 2013, 10:40 AM
Didn't Guerrero have one of his biggest tantrums either during or after the ONS match with Benoit?

Defrost
July 12th, 2013, 1:33 PM
Read about Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho's utter lack of chemistry and also about Sharknado here

https://forums.rajah.com/showthread.php?143105-Defrost-Reviews-Stuff-2-Electric-Boogaloo-Rewatching-a-Series-A-Go-Go&p=7149688&viewfull=1#post7149688

thesamuelcooke
July 12th, 2013, 1:56 PM
For them, being supreme technical wrestlers, it is a lack of chemistry. But most of the guys on any roster would kill to have chemistry as good as these two.

2001 Kurt Angle is the greatest thing ever too. In the ring, out of the ring. As near to perfect as American wrestling got, in my opinion.

Would've loved to have seen a Regal/Angle program. Would they mesh well or would they be too different in styles?