Coming back to The Crippler, after all this time.

[BullyRayStoleMyLunch]

Ok, this may have the possibility of becoming contensious, so apologies if it does: My thread is out of 100% intrigue, and not wanting to start a war.

To cut a long backstory short, I visited my family over the weekend, and watched a TON of old WWE PPVs with my sisters.

Every time a Benoit match came on, what was remarkable was our differing reactions: My elder sister watched it the same way as she would have at the time. My younger sister didn't look comfortable for a second. First few matches with him in, you could see it didn't sit right for her to see him at all. After a short while longer, his matches were either skipped, or her moment for coffee breaks.

I think I fell somewhere in the middle of them - I wasn't horrified to the point of boycotting it. But with every hard chairshot, or Taz(z) putting him over as vicious, cold... I couldn't quite immerse myself in it as I once might.

So: How does it feel for you guys, watching Benoit back nowadays?
Is it similar to the above, or a completely different viewpoint?

Has what happened with Benoit made you appreciate wrestling as a whole in a different way, these days?
I think for me, I've been driven quite a bit more since to the more showman based than full on work based wrestlers, knowing that the former get over with a fair bit less physical price than the latter.


BEFORE WE START.

As I noted in my first sentence, such a subject as this DOES have the potential to be contentious.

I'm not looking for a RIGHT answer - in short, I don't believe there is one.
Everyones unique, with different limits and lines.
I fully believe in all matters of personal conscience such as this, our role is to ask ourselves, rather than dictating to others. I'm able to understand the reasons behind my Sisters' different opinions on it, while not subscribing to them myself.

Essentially, keep it clean, and keep it nice.
This isn't intended as a battle for any moral high ground, but an attempt to explore the differing emotions people have to the darkest point in wrestling history.


That being said, let's start.

[Cewsh]

I can still enjoy his matches, and separate the man who did what he did from the character on screen in the same way that I enjoy Billy Jean, while being throughly disgusted with Michael Jackson as a human being. Though, with wrestling by nature blurring the line between fiction and reality, is is quite a bit harder.

The discomfort is definitely there. I have a lot of trouble watching anything with both Benoit and Guerrero, because the emotion involved is so strong for both men in opposite directions.

[BullyRayStoleMyLunch]

What I find rather odd with my own feel for it is, I find myself more uncomfortable watching a Foley classic these days, seeing him alive, and the clear physical effects of it, than Benoit.

I don't understand it, but its how it is for me

[The Law]

I still enjoy hit matches, just like I did back when he was alive. Just doesn't really affect me. Certain things that have happened in some of his matches that I've seen have made me uncomfortable. I was watching a match against Triple H from 2005 where he had suffered a storyline concussion the night before and HHH was pounding his head. It made me kind of uncomfortable to watch him convulsing, rolling his eyes back in his head, knowing that head injuries most likely contributed to him snapping and killing his family.

I've always been watching the WCW shows from the Benoit/Sullivan/Woman love triangle storyline as part of the ongoing WCW Flashbacks series (cheap plug). Those do make me uncomfortable, although that storyline was like that even before Benoit killed Nancy. The fact that Kevin Sullivan booked his wife to have a storyline affair with someone that she actually ended up having an affair with is just so fucking weird. There have also been a few times where Benoit became angry with Nancy as part of the show and yelled at her. Seeing a man who ended up killing his wife yell at her years prior is a little squirm-inducing.

Whenever I see him take a bad shot to the head, I always find myself wondering which one it was that pushed him past the brink. There was obviously many factors that led to him killiing Nancy and Daniel, but I find the head injury aspect of it very compelling. Whenever I see him take a chair shot without protecting himself, or hit the Diving Headbutt, or do a Suicide Dive where he hits his head on the railing, I get a weird feeling.

On a related note, Daniel Bryan has been worrying me lately. I'm really surprised they're letting him use the Diving Heabutt. It just doesn't seem like a safe move. Knowing what we know about head injuries, diving from six feet in the air and crashing down on the mat with your head doesn't seem like a good idea. He's been taking a LOT of shots to the head in his matches recently, also doing lots of Suicide Dives. Him using (basically) the Crossface and Diving Headbutt as his finishers is a little weird.

I also thought it was pretty fucked up when Triple H or Michaels would use the Crossface and some idiots in the crowd would start chanting "Benoit." I think the first time Michaels did it was Survivor Series 2007. It was less than six months after the murders. Of all the holds he could have used, I have no idea why he picked that one.

I'm glad they've disappeared him from history. I'm fine with his matches being included in compilation sets if he was part of them, but if they have a choice of what matches to put on there's no reason to include him. To acknowledge him in that context is to glorify him. I'm absolutely baffled when I read people saying he should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Can you imagine what that would be like? The video packages honoring him? Are they going to mention at the end that he murdered his wife and son? Is Dean Malenko or whoever inducts him going to talk about that during his speech? I'm just getting this imagine of "Hall of Fame" playing while they show clips of Benoit and whoever else is being inducted that year in my head and it's horrific to contemplate.

[chatty]

I can completely separate it and even enjoy his matches as I did back in the day. I don't really look upon him as a pyschotic killer when I watch him back, I find some of the documentaries or even books, articles more sickening than watching what he did as a job. That said I can easily watch a Roman Polanski film or listen to Charles Manson etc and enjoy or even appreciate it without having to put my mind through the question of whether its morally right to do so.

That said I do a lot of reading on serial killers etc and find the psychology of it fascinating so maybes I'm not quite as easily put off as others. The Benoit case has always intrigued me though just because it is so odd, we know basically what happened but there seems to be no rhyme or reason behind it - sometimes you just never know though. I believe he was a sick man (as in mentally ill) at the end of the day, I'm not sure if it could have been prevented or if it was even the same guy that done it.

[Kdestiny]

He won't be inducted in the Hall of Fame, ever.

i still enjoy his matches but I can understand people who can't bring themselves to separate fictional Benoit from what came of the real Benoit

[chatty]

I still enjoy hit matches, just like I did back when he was alive. Just doesn't really affect me. Certain things that have happened in some of his matches that I've seen have made me uncomfortable. I was watching a match against Triple H from 2005 where he had suffered a storyline concussion the night before and HHH was pounding his head. It made me kind of uncomfortable to watch him convulsing, rolling his eyes back in his head, knowing that head injuries most likely contributed to him snapping and killing his family.

I've always been watching the WCW shows from the Benoit/Sullivan/Woman love triangle storyline as part of the ongoing WCW Flashbacks series (cheap plug). Those do make me uncomfortable, although that storyline was like that even before Benoit killed Nancy. The fact that Kevin Sullivan booked his wife to have a storyline affair with someone that she actually ended up having an affair with is just so fucking weird. There have also been a few times where Benoit became angry with Nancy as part of the show and yelled at her. Seeing a man who ended up killing his wife yell at her years prior is a little squirm-inducing.

Whenever I see him take a bad shot to the head, I always find myself wondering which one it was that pushed him past the brink. There was obviously many factors that led to him killiing Nancy and Daniel, but I find the head injury aspect of it very compelling. Whenever I see him take a chair shot without protecting himself, or hit the Diving Headbutt, or do a Suicide Dive where he hits his head on the railing, I get a weird feeling.

On a related note, Daniel Bryan has been worrying me lately. I'm really surprised they're letting him use the Diving Heabutt. It just doesn't seem like a safe move. Knowing what we know about head injuries, diving from six feet in the air and crashing down on the mat with your head doesn't seem like a good idea. He's been taking a LOT of shots to the head in his matches recently, also doing lots of Suicide Dives. Him using (basically) the Crossface and Diving Headbutt as his finishers is a little weird.

I also thought it was pretty fucked up when Triple H or Michaels would use the Crossface and some idiots in the crowd would start chanting "Benoit." I think the first time Michaels did it was Survivor Series 2007. It was less than six months after the murders. Of all the holds he could have used, I have no idea why he picked that one.

I'm glad they've disappeared him from history. I'm fine with his matches being included in compilation sets if he was part of them, but if they have a choice of what matches to put on there's no reason to include him. To acknowledge him in that context is to glorify him. I'm absolutely baffled when I read people saying he should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Can you imagine what that would be like? The video packages honoring him? Are they going to mention at the end that he murdered his wife and son? Is Dean Malenko or whoever inducts him going to talk about that during his speech? I'm just getting this imagine of "Hall of Fame" playing while they show clips of Benoit and whoever else is being inducted that year in my head and it's horrific to contemplate.

Quality post.

The whole WCW Woman/Benoit/Sullivan thing could be relevant tbh. I never knew the guy so its impossible to say but maybes the guy took a methodical approach to his character and could never fully turn off, that could explain the affair and part of his character at one time was a maniacal destroying machine - if he had that type of personality and then add in drugs/head trauma, maybes even mental trauma then it could go someway to understanding his mindframe - we'll never find out what really went down but the mind is so complex at times its impossible to fully understand - you get people who are capable of greatness but at the same time can be walking on a thin line between that and insanity.

[JP]

I've never had a problem with enjoying his matches, due to my own take on mental illnesses, degenerative diseases etc.


On a related note, Daniel Bryan has been worrying me lately. I'm really surprised they're letting him use the Diving Heabutt. It just doesn't seem like a safe move. Knowing what we know about head injuries, diving from six feet in the air and crashing down on the mat with your head doesn't seem like a good idea. He's been taking a LOT of shots to the head in his matches recently, also doing lots of Suicide Dives. Him using (basically) the Crossface and Diving Headbutt as his finishers is a little weird.

What I'd say to this is that it seems to me that Bryan is much more careful with his execution of the headbutt. I can't remember one in the WWE where it is certain that he's made contact with his opponent, yet still makes it look believable. The impact from Bryan's execution of the move seems to be more akin to the bump somebody would take when taking a splash bump from the top when they're opponent's moved out of the way.

[The Law]

It's such a toxic cocktail of shit with Benoit. It seems like he was always a little edgy, perfectionist. Add in years of steroid abuse, head trauma, painkiller abuse, alcohol abuse, and extensive tragedies in his personal life (Eddie, Rocco Rock, and an insane number of other friends dying). Yet in the weeks leading up to it no one he worked with seemed to have much idea that anything was wrong. Maybe he acted uncharacteristically a few times (some paranoid thoughts, blowing up after a finish in a match got screwed up), but no one seems to have thought that he should be taken off the road or seek treatment. And there seems to be evidence he was functioning just fine during the murders (trying to book a flight to Houston to make it to Vengeance).

It's an odd case. But it seems like at some point the guy became a ticking time bomb. Unfortunately, no one did anything. And then it was too late.

[Andy]

I find it difficult to watch some of his matches. For example, I used to love the ladder match against Jericho from Royal Rumble 2001 but I really struggle to watch it now. There's one chair shot in particular that's so brutal it makes it hard to imagine that it didn't do some lasting impact.

Some matches I don't have that issue. The match against Angle at WMX7 for example is one of my favourites and it's just a brilliant wrestling match, no brutal violence necessary. Even with those matches though, I still find my mind wondering and thinking about what happened.

[The Law]

The chair shot where he's going for the Suicide Dive was sick. One of the hardest chair shots I can remember in WWE.

On a similar note, how about this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I95HNUsgGM4

I don't think he hit his head, but that was still fucking insane.

[Andy]

55 seconds on this video. Absolute madness.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9xmYVdpdj8

[thesamuelcooke]

I can still view his matches the same way I did before the sickening events, if they appear on a recommended viewing tab on YouTube or something. I admire his skill in the ring, he is without a doubt one of the great technical wrestlers.

It is the same as Cewsh said, the MJ comparison. Great pop artist but messed up indeed.

I wouldn't settle down and watch my Benoit DVD for fun, in the same way that I can't go out of my way to put Thriller or something on, but if it's on the radio I shall sing and certainly not turn it off.

[BullyRayStoleMyLunch]

It's such a toxic cocktail of shit with Benoit. It seems like he was always a little edgy, perfectionist. Add in years of steroid abuse, head trauma, painkiller abuse, alcohol abuse, and extensive tragedies in his personal life (Eddie, Rocco Rock, and an insane number of other friends dying). Yet in the weeks leading up to it no one he worked with seemed to have much idea that anything was wrong. Maybe he acted uncharacteristically a few times (some paranoid thoughts, blowing up after a finish in a match got screwed up), but no one seems to have thought that he should be taken off the road or seek treatment. And there seems to be evidence he was functioning just fine during the murders (trying to book a flight to Houston to make it to Vengeance).

It's an odd case. But it seems like at some point the guy became a ticking time bomb. Unfortunately, no one did anything. And then it was too late.

I think the oddest thing at the time was the William Regal Tribute Show clip.

Everyone else, up to HHH and Steph, praised his professional and personal character.
Regal was very measured in comparison to others, and pointedly spoke of his professional accolades.

To me, I think the signs were noticed, but far too late.

[wardy]

I have no problem watching Benoit matches. I can tolerate the chair shots and I can separate the nutter he became from the in-ring performer. Just like we all manage to separate Stone Cold Steve Austin the greatest wrestler of all time from Stone Cold Steve Austin the pathetic wifebeater.

[chatty]

Didnt Regal have a run in with Benoit leading up to the tragedy. He may have been one of the guys who did feel something was up

[The Law]

That was a bad day. I got home from practice around 8:15 and plopped down to watch. Raw. I hadn't read the news all day, so I was confused when I turned it on and it was an old interview with Benoit and then a Benoit match. I pretty quickly put together what a tribute show meant and ran downstairs to check the news (this was back before I had a laptop). I couldn't believe he was dead. Benoit was my favorite wrestler, and it wasn't really even that close. I loved the guy from when I first started watching WCW. The scenarios started running through my head: Gas leak? A home invasion gone wrong? Something happened to Nancy and Daniel, and Chris killed himself out of grief? I don't remember if it was that night or the next morning that word came out it was a double murder/suicide. That was tough to accept. I took a break from wrestling after that. Didn't really start watching again until Orton got the belt in the fall that year. I don't feel like I've ever really been able to watch a show the same way again after that.

[Rip]

I was a huge fan of his, no doubt for a while he was my favorite wrestler by a long way, his size and aggression struck a chord with me as I'm around 5'8 and playing front row for years I was a very, very aggressive sportsman and Benoit (and Tazz) were the two wrestlers it was almost easy for me to identify with, his matches were always my favorite, they were always so well crafted, so honest seeming, so brutal yet artistic, without any doubt the man was a craftsman...

However, looking back...

Almost every match he is in, with hindsight, you can see 'tells' of the future, the brutal chairshots, the way his body changes in muscle type, his increasing aggression, the suicide dives that result in heavy skull blows, the almost painful to watch diving headbutts. Each match now is hard to watch, the later ones even more so, as each one is almost another footstep towards the inevitable, the ending you know is coming but don't want to acknowledge.

In a way it's guilt I guess because I loved the guys work so much, and in a way that makes me responsible in a small way for what he did, if his fans hadn't pushed, if he hadn't been so driven, would he still have snapped?

I guess we'll never know, but I still can't watch him anymore and I doubt I ever will.

[Rip]

Didnt Regal have a run in with Benoit leading up to the tragedy. He may have been one of the guys who did feel something was up

He did, watch his interviews on the tribute show, you can tell he's unsure.

I think he's even made allusions to the fact himself.

[The Law]

I hope pro wrestling has learned from this. It certainly seems like WWE has. The Wellness Policy seems to have much more teeth now. Steroid use on the roster seems to have dropped drastically (based on the changing physiques). They're taking concussions more seriously, although the fact that they've just now codified a concussion policy is a problem. They've banned a lot of moves that seemed unsafe (Piledrivers, certain Suplexes that dropped guys on their heads).

Benoit's steroid use was just so senseless. I understand wrestling is a big man's sport, but I can't believe there is anyone out there who liked Benoit because of his physique. Little men with average bodies can get over. Daniel Bryan, Christian, and CM Punk all look like dudes I would play basketball against at the park. And I would post their asses up. Benoit and Guerrero both fucked their bodies up with steroids. Mysterio did the same thing. It's almost bizarre to watch him in WCW before he started juicing. He's put on like 30 pounds since then. And it didn't make him a better wrestler. Steroids make you worse at wrestling. All that muscle mass reduces stamina, flexibility, and durability.

Really, when I look at WWE's roster right now there are only a few guys whose physiques I find implausible. I've always been suspicious of Cena. Triple H looks a little too good for a guy his age, although he's definitely changed in the last few years. Ezekiel Jackson and Mason Ryan are both impossibly jacked. This has to be the cleanest the roster has been since at least the mid 1990s, when Vince was on trial and they were drug testing extensively.

[Andy]

Yeah Cena seems impossibly huge but I just can't believe he's doing anything dodgy. Imagine the scandal if it came out that he was on roids while being the face of the PG era during the most stringent drug testing period in the history of the business.

As you says, Trips' physique has changed a lot in the last few years, Lesnar looks a lot different than he did the first time round too.

[Jacknife]

Yeah no problem watching Benoit.

[chatty]

Cenas the hardest one because hes full time but id hazard a guess that all the part times bar maybea jericho are juicing. The rock for sure.

[wardy]

I've got a feeling that Cena and Triple H aren't subject to the same rules as everyone else.

[Hero!]

For years after, I was fine watching his matches, probably due to my own desire to not want Benoit to be forgotten, but in the last few years its gotten harder and harder. There's just so many spot with headshots and his body looks so overdone from steroids that it just makes the homicides run through my mind. I recently watched his match with Regal after returning from his sabbatical and it used to be favorite of mine, but the headbutts between the two of them just made me uncomfortable. I couldn't help, but think "what if that's the one that ruined his mind?". I can still appreciate his skill, but the risks he took and the damage done just makes me feel uncomfortable.

He & Eddie at ONS is a match that I can't even begin to watch. Both men just look so horribly, horribly steroided out of their minds and just flat out disgusting. It breaks my heart watching that one, so I just don't.

[JRSlim21]

I still maintain that Benoit pound-for-pound is 1 of the greatest that ever was. I can watch 1 of his matches and just be amazed at how good he was. Cewsh touched on it earlier. Are you gonna deny MJ's talent because he allegedly sexually abuse someone? Thriller and Bad will continue to be 2 of American music's greatest contributions.

In reality, no one here knows who Benoit the person is; only Benoit the character. And the closest we assume about the person is through the eyes of others who claim Benoit was intense but overall cordial. And the evidence to show how his brain degenerated over time makes one assume that he might've been mentally, in terms of emotions, damaged.

All in all, I think it's easy to watch the man wrestle and separate reality from "sports entertainment." We're supposed to do it all the time with the current product, unless it's still real to you damnit.

[Anaconda Sniper]

I still watch Benoit matches all the damn time. I just watched the TLC fatal four tag match from Smackdown yesterday. My favorite match to watch of his is against Regal when he returns in 06 at no mercy. It sucks what he did but hes still one of my favorites of all time.

[Atty]

He's finally coming back? Tremendous heel turn.

[Jacknife]

Michael Jackson is innocent goddamnit. How dare you slander his name in here! It's amazing people continue to believe he was guilty.

[Hacksaw]

Not only do I have trouble enjoying Benoit matches, for quite awhile I couldn't enjoy wrestling after he died. I've probably watched, at most, a half-dozen shows since then. For most of my life I considered Benoit to be the consummate professional wrestler, the prototype of everything I thought wrestling should be. I don't think I've ever shaken that.

[JP]

I make a joke about you in the latest RAW thread and you appear like magic.

You're like the rajahforums Beetlejuice.

[Hacksaw]

Did you really? I don't know what persuaded me to log on over here today. My spidey-senses must've been tingling.

[Atty]

For years after, I was fine watching his matches, probably due to my own desire to not want Benoit to be forgotten, but in the last few years its gotten harder and harder. There's just so many spot with headshots and his body looks so overdone from steroids that it just makes the homicides run through my mind. I recently watched his match with Regal after returning from his sabbatical and it used to be favorite of mine, but the headbutts between the two of them just made me uncomfortable. I couldn't help, but think "what if that's the one that ruined his mind?". I can still appreciate his skill, but the risks he took and the damage done just makes me feel uncomfortable.

He & Eddie at ONS is a match that I can't even begin to watch. Both men just look so horribly, horribly steroided out of their minds and just flat out disgusting. It breaks my heart watching that one, so I just don't.

This is pretty much what I went through a few years ago. Really hit me hard in the Jericho ladder match, where he's bumping all over the place on his head. Used to be my favorite match. :(