101 Best Written TV Series Of All Time

[Mik]

The Writers Guild of America have named their 101 best written tv series of all time and it goes like this...


1. The Sopranos – HBO – Created by David Chase
2. Seinfeld – NBC – Created by Larry David & Jerry Seinfeld
3. The Twilight Zone (1959) – CBS – Season One writers: Charles Beaumont, Richard Matheson, Robert Presnell, Jr., Rod Serling
4. All in the Family – CBS – Developed for Television by Norman Lear, Based on Till Death Do Us Part, Created by Johnny Speight
5. M*A*S*H – CBS – Developed for Television by Larry Gelbart
6. The Mary Tyler Moore Show – CBS – Created by James L. Brooks and Allan Burns
7. Mad Men – AMC – Created by Matthew Weiner
8. Cheers – NBC – Created by Glen Charles & Les Charles and James Burrows
9. The Wire – HBO – Created by David Simon
10. The West Wing – NBC – Created by Aaron Sorkin
11. The Simpsons – FOX – Created by Matt Groening, Developed by James L. Brooks and Matt Groening and Sam Simon
12. I Love Lucy – CBS – “Pilot,” Written by Jess Oppenheimer & Madelyn Pugh & Bob Carroll, Jr.
13. Breaking Bad – AMC – Created by Vince Gilligan
14. The Dick Van Dyke Show – CBS – Created by Carl Reiner
15. Hill Street Blues – NBC – Created by Michael Kozoll and Steven Bochco

16. Arrested Development – FOX – Created by Mitchell Hurwitz
17. The Daily Show with Jon Stewart – COMEDY CENTRAL – Created by Madeleine Smithberg, Lizz Winstead; Season One – Head Writer: Chris Kreski; Writers: Jim Earl, Daniel J. Goor, Charles Grandy, J.R. Havlan, Tom Johnson, Kent Jones, Paul Mercurio, Guy Nicolucci, Steve Rosenfield, Jon Stewart
18. Six Feet Under – HBO – Created by Alan Ball
19. Taxi – ABC – Created by James L. Brooks and Stan Daniels and David Davis and Ed Weinberger
20. The Larry Sanders Show – HBO – Created by Garry Shandling & Dennis Klein
21. 30 Rock – NBC – Created by Tina Fey
22. Friday Night Lights – NBC – Developed for Television by Peter Berg, Inspired by the Book by H.G. Bissinger
23. Frasier – NBC – Created by David Angell & Peter Casey & David Lee, Based on the Character “Frasier Crane” Created by Glen Charles & Les Charles
24. Friends – NBC – Created by Marta Kauffman & David Crane
25. Saturday Night Live – NBC – Season One: Writing Supervised by Walter Kempley, Harry Shearer; Written by: Ann Beatts, Chevy Chase, Tom Davis, Al Franken, Rosie Michaels, Garrett Morris, Michael O’Donoghue, Herb Sargent, Tom Schiller, Alan Zweibel
26. The X-Files – FOX – Created by Chris Carter
27. Lost – ABC – Created by Jeffrey Lieber and J.J. Abrams & Damon Lindelof
28. ER – NBC – Created Michael Crichton
29. The Cosby Show – NBC – Created by Ed Weinberger & Michael Leeson and William Cosby, Jr., Ed. D.
30. Curb Your Enthusiasm – HBO – Created by Larry David
31. The Honeymooners – CBS – Season One writers: Herbert Finn, Marvin Marx, A.J. Russell, Leonard Stern, Walter Stone, Sydney Zelinka
32. Deadwood – HBO – Created by David Milch
33. Star Trek – NBC – Created by Gene Roddenberry
34. Modern Family – ABC – Created by Steven Levitan & Christopher Lloyd
35. Twin Peaks – ABC – “Pilot,” Written by Mark Frost & David Lynch
36. NYPD Blue – ABC – created by David Milch & Steven Bochco
37. The Carol Burnett Show – CBS – Season One: Written by Bill Angelos, Stan Burns, Don Hinkley, Buz Kohan, Mike Marmer, Gail Parent, Kenny Solms, Saul Turtletaub; Writing Supervised by Arnie Rosen
38. Battlestar Galactica (2005) – SYFY – Developed by Ronald D. Moore, Based on the Series Battlestar Galactica Created by Glen A. Larson
39. Sex & the City – HBO – Created by Darren Star, Based on the Book by Candace Bushnell
40. Game of Thrones – HBO – Created by David Benioff & D. B. Weiss, Based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin
41. – The Bob Newhart Show *TIE – CBS – Created by David Davis and Lorenzo Music
41. – Your Show of Shows *TIE – NBC – Season One: Written by Mel Tolkin, Lucille Kallen, Max Liebman
43. Downton Abbey *TIE – PBS – Created by Julian Fellowes
43. Law & Order *TIE – NBC – Created by Dick Wolf
43. thirtysomething *TIE – ABC – Created by Marshall Herskovitz & Edward Zwick
46. Homicide: Life on the Street *TIE – NBC – Created by Paul Attanasio, Based on the Book Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets by David Simon
46. St. Elsewhere *TIE – CBS – Created by Joshua Brand & John Falsey, Developed by Mark Tinker / John Masius
48. Homeland – SHOWTIME – Developed by Howard Gordon & Alex Gansa, Based on the Original Israeli Series Prisoners of War by Gideon Raff
49. Buffy the Vampire Slayer – WB – Created by Joss Whedon
50. The Colbert Report *TIE – COMEDY CENTRAL – Season One writers: Stephen Colbert, Rich Dahm, Eric Drysdale, Peter Gwinn, Jay Katsir, Laura Krafft, Allison Silverman
50. The Good Wife *TIE – CBS – Created by Robert King & Michelle King
50. The Office (UK) *TIE – BBC – Created by Ricky Gervais & Stephen Merchant
53. Northern Exposure – CBS – Created by Joshua Brand & John Falsey
54. The Wonder Years – ABC – Created by Neal Marlens & Carol Black
55. L.A. Law – NBC – Created by Steven Bochco & Terry Louise Fisher
56. Sesame Street – PBS – Created by Joan Ganz Cooney
57. Columbo – NBC – Created by Richard Levinson & William Link
58. Fawlty Towers *TIE – BBC – Written by John Cleese & Connie Booth
58. The Rockford Files *TIE – NBC – Created by Roy Huggins and Stephen J. Cannell
60. Freaks and Geeks *TIE – NBC – Created by Paul Feig
60. Moonlighting *TIE – ABC – Created by Glenn Gordon Caron
62. Roots – ABC – Written by William Blinn, M. Charles Cohen, Ernest Kinoy, James Lee; Based on the Book by Alex Haley
63. Everybody Loves Raymond *TIE – CBS – Created by Philip Rosenthal
63. South Park *TIE – COMEDY CENTRAL – Created by Matt Stone & Trey Parker
65. Playhouse 90 – CBS – Season One writers: Edna Anhalt, Edmund Beloin, Harold Jack Bloom, Marc Brandel, George Bruce, James P. Cavanagh, Whitfiled Cook, Helen Doss, Scott Fitzgerald, Devery Freeman, Frank D. Gilroy, Helen Howe, Speed Lamkin, Ernest Lehman, Herbert Little, Jr., Don Mankiewicz, Elick Moll, Paul Monash, Dean Reisner, Norman Retchin, Selma Robinson, William Sackheim, Rod Serling, Leonard Spigelgass, Leslie Stevens, Brandon Thomas, David Victor, Charles M. Warren, Hagar Wilde, Cornell Woolrich
66. Dexter *TIE – SHOWTIME – Developed for Television by James Manos, Jr., Based on the Novel Darkly Dreaming Dexter by Jeff Lindsay
66. The Office (US) *TIE – NBC – Created by Ricky Gervais & Stephen Merchant, Developed by Greg Daniels, Based on the BBC Series The Office
68. My So-Called Life – ABC – Created by Winnie Holzman
69. The Golden Girls – NBC – Created by Susan Harris
70. The Andy Griffith Show – CBS – Episode 1, “The New Housekeeper,” Written by Jack Elinson and Charles Stewart
71. 24 *TIE – FOX – Created by Joel Surnow & Robert Cochran
71. Roseanne *TIE – ABC – Created by Matt Williams, Based on a Character Created by Roseanne Barr
71. The Shield *TIE – FX – Created by Shawn Ryan
74. House *TIE – FOX – Created by David Shore
75. Murphy Brown *TIE – CBS – Created by Diane English
76. Barney Miller *TIE – ABC – Created by Danny Arnold & Theodore J. Flicker
76. I, Claudius *TIE – PBS – Written by Rupert Graves and Jack Pulman
78. The Odd Couple – ABC – Episode 1, “The Fight of the Felix,” Written by Peggy Elliott & Ed Scharlach
79. Alfred Hitchcock Presents *TIE – CBS – Season One writers – Gwen Bagni, Samuel Blas, Robert Blees, Ray Bradbury, Richard Carr, James Cavanagh, Eustace Cockrell, Francis Cockrell, Marian Cockrell, John Collier, Robert C. Dennis, Mel Dinelli, Stanley Ellin, Fred Freiberger, Irwin Gielgud, Gina Kaus, Terence Maples, Richard Pedicini, Louis Pollock, Joseph Ruscoll, A.J. Russell, Stirling Silliphant, Andrew Solt, Harold Swanton, Victor Wolfson, Cornell Woolrich
79. Monty Python’s Flying Circus *TIE – BBC – Conceived and Written by Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Terry Gilliam, Eric Idle, Neil Innes, Terry Jones, Michael Palin
79. Star Trek: The Next Generation *TIE – SYN – Created by Gene Roddenberry
79. Upstairs, Downstairs *TIE – PBS – Created by Jean Marsh and Eileen Atkins
83. Get Smart – NBC – “Pilot,” Written by Mel Brooks and Buck Henry
84. The Defenders *TIE – CBS – Created by Reginald Rose
84. Gunsmoke *TIE – CBS – Episode 1, “Matt Gets It,” Written by Charles Marquis Warren & John Meston
86. Justified *TIE – FX – Developed for Television by Graham Yost, Based on the Short Story “Fire in the Hole” by Elmore Leonard
86. Sgt. Bilko (The Phil Silvers Show) *TIE – CBS – Created by Nat Hiken
88. Band of Brothers – HBO – Written by Erik Bork, E. Max Frye, Tom Hanks, Erik Jendresen, Bruce C. McKenna, John Orloff, Graham Yost; Based on the Book by Stephan E. Ambrose
89. Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In – NBC – Season One: Written by Chris Beard, Phil Hahn, John Hanrahan, Coslough Johnson, Paul Keyes, Marc London, Allan Manings, David Panich, Hugh Wedlock, Digby Wolfe
90. The Prisoner – CBS – Premiere Episode: Written by George Markstein and David Tomblin
91. Absolutely Fabulous (UK) *TIE – BBC – Episode 1, “Fashion,” Written by Jennifer Saunders, Based on an Original Idea by Jennifer Saunders & Dawn French
91. The Muppet Show *TIE – SYN – Season One: Written by Jack Burns, Jim Henson, Jerry Juhl, Marc London
93. Boardwalk Empire – HBO – Created by Terence Winter, Based on the Book Boardwalk Empire by Nelson Johnson
94. Will & Grace – NBC – Created by David Kohan & Max Mutchnick
95. Family Ties – NBC – Created by Gary David Goldberg
96. Lonesome Dove *TIE – CBS – Teleplay by Bill Wittliff, Based on the Novel Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
96. Soap *TIE – ABC – Created by Susan Harris
98. The Fugitive *TIE – ABC – Episode 1, “Where the Action Is,” Written by Harry Kronman
98. Late Night with David Letterman *TIE – CBS – Season One: Writing Supervised by Merrill Markoe, Writers: Andy Breckman, Tom Gammill, David Letterman, Richard Morris, Gerard Mulligan, Max Pross, Karl Tiedemann, Steve Winer
98. Louie *TIE – FX – Season One: Written and Directed by Louis C.K.
101. Oz – HBO – Created by Tom Fontana

Discuss.

[Mik]

Gah, why the hell is it copying it in like that? It doesnt look like that on the new post screen. Hah! Fixed.

[Simon]

fcgadsb vfgashdgasd I assumed it was an all-American list after reading through a few, but no - they've been kind enough to give the UK entries at #50, #58, #79 and #93. No other countries included at all, as far as I can see. What a laughably shit list, is it supposed to hold any credibility?

EDIT: It isn't fixed on my screen Mik, unless you intended to have it in dark grey text on a very slightly lighter grey background. I just assumed you did that on purpose in case people didn't want the list spoiled.

[Mik]

Well...it is the Writers Guild of America.

It's hard to argue with many of the inclusions on the list. Easier to argue about many of the exclusions.

[Slare]

First glaring one is that I'd have The US Office much, much higher than 66th.

[LOCONUT]

This list is going to explode my head. Mash is awful, I agree the Office should be much higher, not sure how Jon Stewart/The Daily Show or any of the other talk shows really qualifies here, and Lost was a brilliant story with loads of horribly written dialogue. I'd have the Shield and Family Ties much higher as well.

[Cewsh]

Honestly, if you swap Mad Men and Dick Van Dyke, I don't think I have any issue with the entire first half of the list.

[Anaconda Sniper]

No Batman? List is useless. Also Wonder Years and The Muppet Show should be way higher.

[Simon]

Well...it is the Writers Guild of America.


But then why does it have UK shows? It seems like a half-arsed compromise that makes it meaningless. I'd give it some credit for acknowledging that a lot of comedy has fantastic writing though, comedy shows hardly ever turn up in these sort of lists, or at least no more than a couple of obvious ones like Seinfeld and The Simpsons.

[Chris]

Scrubs and Mr Bean seem like big omissions in the comedy department.

Star Trek TNG is a much better written show than the original series. Though if any Trek series was to wind up on such a list, I would have expected it to be Deep Space Nine.

I'm glad that Frasier got so high since it's one of my favourite shows ever, but I'm surprised that it ranked ahead of Friends. The quality of writing in Friends was often more consistent than Frasier, which had peaks and troughs in between seasons 4 and 7 and again in the later seasons.

[The_Mike]

This list is going to explode my head. Mash is awful, I agree the Office should be much higher, not sure how Jon Stewart/The Daily Show or any of the other talk shows really qualifies here, and Lost was a brilliant story with loads of horribly written dialogue. I'd have the Shield and Family Ties much higher as well.

Only 6 minutes of the Daily Show is a talk show, the rest is scripted satire, and some of it has had a profound effect on American politics. They win an Emmy basically every year, and The Daily Show's writing shamed Congress into finally providing healthcare for 9/11 first responders, a decade after the attacks.

Was never a big fan of MASH myself. Maybe it's just too archaic, but I can't help but find most of it plain dull. Loved the film, though.

I can't imagine how they really came to decide on the order. The X-Files is really high, and had some of the best and worst writing I've ever seen. Does it lose points for having several plain bad seasons and bone-headed moves? Should that impinge the stellar first few seasons?

[Cewsh]

But then why does it have UK shows?

Because the ones that are on there air in America through PBS or BBC America.

[Vice]

Lost at 27 is ridiculous. I don't think it should be on this list at all.

[Ringo]

Yeah, right. The suggestion that Lost is better written than something like The Shield or 24 is probably difficult to argue. Generally though, not really worth getting worked up about lists like these. Good stuff I would expect to be included that is, good stuff I wouldn't expect to be included that isn't, plenty of stuff I haven't seen and the odd thing I don't rate highly but I know others do. Fair play.

[Pete Cash]

Sopranos is there mostly for influence. Its not as well crafted as say mad men imo plus it meanders quite a bit in the middle. Seinfeld is still the best comedy ever by miles but is it better written than arrested development. Curb your enthusiasm is mostly improv. Its a good list mostly but the wga really just voted for their favourite shows.

[Jacknife]

First thing I looked for was the X-files. Hooray!

[Peter Griffin]

Everybody Loves Raymond is to low :squint:

[Fro]

It's tough to distinguish between great shows and well written shows. I would agree with those above that Lost is a good example of a great show that isn't particularly well written (particularly after the second season).

The Wire would probably be my #1, both as a show and in terms of writing.

[wardy]

I find it really hard to imagine that shows like All In The Family and Mary Tyler Moore were better written than The Wire.

[Vice]

The Simpsons is a tricky one for me, as a few season of it are some of the best writing/comedy ever.. but the rest ranges from pretty good to quite poor.

[Cewsh]

I find it really hard to imagine that shows like All In The Family and Mary Tyler Moore were better written than The Wire.

They operated under MUCH stricter restrictions, and had to be significantly more clever in how they freshened up tired material and incredibly controversial social issues so that the mainstream public would not only embrace them, but love them.

The Wire was free to tell it's story in a vacuum. So while it is an incredible masterpiece of television writing, I will argue all day that the writers for Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore and the like had by far the tougher job.

[Peter Griffin]

The best thing Van Dyke did was Diagnosis Murder :shifty:

[Jimmy Zero]

Breaking Bad should be top 5. It should be ahead of Mad Men, too.

[wardy]

They operated under MUCH stricter restrictions, and had to be significantly more clever in how they freshened up tired material and incredibly controversial social issues so that the mainstream public would not only embrace them, but love them.

The Wire was free to tell it's story in a vacuum. So while it is an incredible masterpiece of television writing, I will argue all day that the writers for Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore and the like had by far the tougher job.
Using that logic, all the older shows would be near the top of the list. This is supposed to be the 101 best written shows of all time not at the time.

[Mark Hammer]

First glaring one is that I'd have The US Office much, much higher than 66th.

Was it really all that well-written though? Not taking anything at all away from the show but of the many positive things I could say about it "well-written" probably isn't one of them.

[Cewsh]

Using that logic, all the older shows would be near the top of the list. This is supposed to be the 101 best written shows of all time not at the time.

Not even remotely true. All in the Family and The Mary Tyler Moore show were shows that were built on challenging serious societal issues that were going on in the country during an era of censorship and difficulty. Nobody making television right now has to go to the same effort to write edgy, interesting television under that kind of duress and pressure. The fact that those shows are hugely rewarding, clever and sharp even to this day in spite of all of that is a crowning achievement in the industry.

[Mik]

Breaking Bad should be top 5. It should be ahead of Mad Men, too.


See, I love Breaking Bad and I love The Wire even more. In fact The Wire is probably my favourite TV show of all time.

However to me, Mad Men is better written than any of them, or Game of Thrones, or Lost.

Really glad to see Louie on the list though.

[Jimmy Zero]

Was it really all that well-written though? Not taking anything at all away from the show but of the many positive things I could say about it "well-written" probably isn't one of them.

I agree with this. The writing wasn't terrible, or anything, but it certainly isn't groundbreaking, nor the plots particularly interesting.

[Jimmy Zero]

See, I love Breaking Bad and I love The Wire even more. In fact The Wire is probably my favourite TV show of all time.

However to me, Mad Men is better written than any of them, or Game of Thrones, or Lost.

Really glad to see Louie on the list though.

Mad Men just does absolutely nothing for me. At this point, having watched the first 2 seasons, I guess I just have to resign myself to, "I don't get it."

[Ringo]

I'm with Mik. Mad Men is perhaps the best written show I've ever seen. Definitely better in that department than Breaking Bad for me, which I am a big fan of.

[Mik]

Mad Men just does absolutely nothing for me. At this point, having watched the first 2 seasons, I guess I just have to resign myself to, "I don't get it."


Honestly, try again. I know it sounds stupid but I could've taken it or left it after two seasons, same with everyone I know who is a big fan. It doesnt get better as such, you just come to realise how fantastic it is.

[LOCONUT]

Only 6 minutes of the Daily Show is a talk show, the rest is scripted satire, and some of it has had a profound effect on American politics. They win an Emmy basically every year, and The Daily Show's writing shamed Congress into finally providing healthcare for 9/11 first responders, a decade after the attacks.

Was never a big fan of MASH myself. Maybe it's just too archaic, but I can't help but find most of it plain dull. Loved the film, though.

I can't imagine how they really came to decide on the order. The X-Files is really high, and had some of the best and worst writing I've ever seen. Does it lose points for having several plain bad seasons and bone-headed moves? Should that impinge the stellar first few seasons?

I love Jon Stewart but its a news show combined with topical satire. It doesn't belong on this list because it has zero future rewatchability. I'm not even sure how you can go back in time and rate the writing unless you memorize every piece of political nuance from its run.

[Jimmy Zero]

Honestly, try again. I know it sounds stupid but I could've taken it or left it after two seasons, same with everyone I know who is a big fan. It doesnt get better as such, you just come to realise how fantastic it is.

I think I'd rather watch grass grow, at this point. I might, at some point, rewatch it, but not anytime soon.

[Simon]

I know I'm a Wire fanboy but the writing is better than anything I've ever seen. In terms of writing I think that and Arrested Development are the most intelligent of all time.

[lotjx]

No Babylon 5. Fuck this list. Honestly, Twilight Zone would be my number one. Sopranos way too high. I'd put Breaking Bad in the top 5. For me, its Twilight Zone, All in the Family, Seinfeld, Breaking Bad and Babylon 5. I am ok with Mary Tyler Moore and Dick Van Dyke. Honestly, Buffy, Muppet Show and X-Files being on the list is pretty great. No Sons of Anarchy is a shame, I like it better than Shield.

[Tainted Eclipse]

I love Jon Stewart but its a news show combined with topical satire. It doesn't belong on this list because it has zero future rewatchability. I'm not even sure how you can go back in time and rate the writing unless you memorize every piece of political nuance from its run.

besides most of the jokes on the daily show not being particularly good. somehow a 'best written' list doesnt seem like the place to award accolades for journalistic accomplishment.

deadwood should be a lot higher also, i'd have it and breaking bad in the top 5, with the wire at 1.

[The_Mike]

I love Jon Stewart but its a news show combined with topical satire. It doesn't belong on this list because it has zero future rewatchability. I'm not even sure how you can go back in time and rate the writing unless you memorize every piece of political nuance from its run.

It's still written by members of the Writers Guild, and this is their list of what they consider to be the best written shows. Doesn't really matter if it's not topical ten years later. Neither is All in the Family, and I guess your mileage may vary but I have a terrible memory and still find old segments to be very rewatchable. Dick Cheney shooting a guy in the face and Glenn Beck being a loon are still funny to me. I used to lose so much time surfing youtube for clips before I could see the show regularly.

Speaking of All in the Family, what a fantastic show. I honestly would be surprised if such a show could stay on the air now without Fox News and pressure groups flipping out. They freaked out at Glee, which was essentially a music industry infomercial with attractive people telling you that it's ok to be gay (and in a wheelchair if you can walk sometimes, and a non-threatening goth). A nuanced and highly incisive look at ourselves as a culture in the guise of a sitcom just doesn't seem like it could survive in such a partisan world, and I worry that too few people would even get it. A good portion of Republican voters thought Colbert was a genuine Republican. And a network would have to have the guts to let stories play out that might make people uncomfortable. The car bomb episode utterly shocked me long after I thought 24 had stopped me remotely caring about explosions on TV. There's something truly powerful about honing in on a simple family and watching them struggle with the big issues of the day, and I think it's a shame there isn't more TV like that. Now every show seems to be all about the elite, either high-ranking government agents or really rich people, or it's about people in the absolute gutter of the underworld. Maybe I'm missing something obvious (Breaking Bad is kind of an exception, for one), but it seems like the viewpoint of 'regular people' has practically vanished from television. Even The Simpsons dropped any pretence at lampooning normal family life years ago, and became all about Super Homer and how much of an idiot jerk he could manage to be.

[Jimmy Zero]

Do people besides the morons that actually watch Fox News give half a fuck about anything Fox News has to say?

[Myles]

Friday night lights was a nice teen drama, bit of a guilty pleasure kinda like the oc.... But 22nd best written show of all time? Come on now. I do agree with the first choice though. Sopranos is the greatest and best written show I have ever seen. :yes:

[Peter Griffin]

Out of curiosity is there a similar list knocking about as regards British shows?

[lotjx]

Do people besides the morons that actually watch Fox News give half a fuck about anything Fox News has to say?

Its more about Fox News screaming about stories that force the other news networks to cover it, because they badger on about it. Look at the IRS thing. Its meaningless. The Tea Party and all the conservative groups plus even some liberal groups got their tax exemptions it was just down the road than most. Part of it has to do with the Supreme Court giving out that retard ruling in Citizens United. Yet, Fox News screams about the injustice of it all and it becomes a story with legs. When in reality, its nothing.

On topic, Is the Wire really that good? Also, no Doctor Who?

[Pete Cash]

The wire is one of the best dramas of all time so yes its that good.

[The_Mike]

Do people besides the morons that actually watch Fox News give half a fuck about anything Fox News has to say?

Of course, because what Fox News says creates an alternative reality that makes millions of Americans vote based on complete fantasies and gives members of Congress political cover for doing things that actively harm people and might wreck the planet. But I didn't really mention Fox News, and the Daily Show is not just an endless lampoon of one news network. Its main thrust is that the US news media is an abysmal failure at operating as the fourth estate and their transparent self-serving is often comical and sometimes tragic, which is the heart of comedy anyway.


Also, no Doctor Who?

Doctor Who is a good show, but I'm not sure I'd consider it to have had consistently good writing for any length of time.

[Canuck]

Although Friday Night Lights is fairly high at 22, it's much better written than some of the shows ahead of it.

[ReDPath]

Don't have much of a problem with Sopranos at 1.

It had quite literally the most colorful collection of actors/even actresses on that show during its run. Pretty much everyone on the show was easy to watch, including that shithead who played AJ. That, and the show wasn't the Sopranos: GQ Edition aka a bunch of pretty boy actors. It was a cast loaded with a variety of different looking people so it stuck more with people.

Now onto everything else.

Not sure how I feel about including shows that aren't done with their runs.

I hate to bring a Game of Thrones argument into this considering I can't really watch it, perhaps I should set aside some time during the summer to try to legit.

But just looking from afar.

Game Of Thrones - An adult fantasy show supposedly better written than...

- The original Law and Order which had one helluva run
- Dexter, a show that follows the inner thinkings of a serial killer
- Wonder Years, a show that depicted coming of age in the 60s/70s quite well
- Buffy The Vampire Slayer which had layers upon layers, especially the first few seasons that served as PSA's at times while the overall show shows a real to life coming of age story

All I gotta say is...GTSOH

If the crowning achievement of that show (from what I read/hear) is that it doesn't piss off the fanboys by straying from the source material, and in fact copies it directly. Then that criteria needs to be reevaluated because I find just in those 4 shows alone, a much better narrative/messages.

[Cewsh]

You know nothing, Redpath.

[lotjx]

Well to be fair to Redpath. Game of Throne Book Book 4 is lukewarm and Book 5 is a bear. It also seems GRR has a game plan, but it may not be the one people want. He may have a point over time, but as of right now, no. Yet, I still think Buffy season 3 is one of the best seasons of all time.

[Peter Griffin]

You know nothing, Redpath.

I honestly think He is a troll, problem is he puts way to much effort into it.

[ReDPath]

List should be disqualified as is anyway regardless of who likes what, and what spots everything should be in.

Having shows still going on the list kinda defeats the purpose of the entire thing.

Some shows in their final seasons get completely wonky, some shows don't.

Also, as I said as I feel I shouldn't have to explain myself to the typicals.

I do not feel (based off the scenes I've watched both from Season 3 and Season 1 of Game of Thrones).

That Game Of Thrones is a better written show, than the shows I've mentioned, or quite frankly a half a dozen other shows on what is a list that includes shows still running which also disqualifies Dexter.

I mean wtf...who thought that was a good idea to begin with?

Anyway, feel free to continue to hit the attack key, its very typical at this point, because when you respond with insults/attacks, the question is...who is the real troll? o_0

I'll leave the thread now as any further discussions with the typicals will probably derail what is otherwise, a good thread.

[Kdestiny]

So the shows that are currently are on now don't deserve to be included in a list of shows that have happened all time.

That is what you are saying.

I feel like I agree with a huge amount of the list even though I haven't seen most of the shows. Just from what I have heard and clips I have seen makes me see it this way.

[Lagom]

No Partridge...?

[Pete Cash]

Well to be fair to Redpath. Game of Throne Book Book 4 is lukewarm and Book 5 is a bear. It also seems GRR has a game plan, but it may not be the one people want. He may have a point over time, but as of right now, no. Yet, I still think Buffy season 3 is one of the best seasons of all time.

Your spoiler is actually wrong you silly tool. Also not a spoiler but your dumb opinion. Book 4 and 5 are fine when read together. The issue with feast was it was half a book.

Redpath you are also wrong about GOT sticking to its source material like glue. They have made a number of changes including bringing in new characters. Its also possibly the biggest show in the world right now as far as cultural impact goes. Did Buffy have storylines make the front pages of newspapers like with the red wedding.

[Pete Cash]

Also is anything more annoying than some self righteous jackass giving his opinion and going hurr I'm afraid you "typicals" just wouldn't understand my wonderful arguments so now I leave the thread in a cloud of smug.

[Judas Iscariot]

South Park is too low.

Also, Reno 911! isn't on the list. The list is invalid.

"Oh, but Judas, it was all improvised."

Meaning it was being written at the exact moment it was being filmed. Technical marvel.

[lotjx]

Your spoiler is actually wrong you silly tool. Also not a spoiler but your dumb opinion. Book 4 and 5 are fine when read together. The issue with feast was it was half a book.

Redpath you are also wrong about GOT sticking to its source material like glue. They have made a number of changes including bringing in new characters. Its also possibly the biggest show in the world right now as far as cultural impact goes. Did Buffy have storylines make the front pages of newspapers like with the red wedding.

I am spoiler tagging everything to do with Game of Thrones, because people are getting butt hurt over it and I don't want to get banned. Buffy dropping episodes due to Columbine did make headlines and EW had it as their show the year.

[Pete Cash]

So a Buffy episode never made the papers on plot alone. Buffy is an ok show. It suffers from being too zany like all his work and xander is possibly the worst character ever invented but its fun. Its not a cultural icon like GOT.

[Pete Cash]

South Park is too low.

Also, Reno 911! isn't on the list. The list is invalid.

"Oh, but Judas, it was all improvised."

Meaning it was being written at the exact moment it was being filmed. Technical marvel.

Curb is on the list and that's improved.

[lotjx]

So a Buffy episode never made the papers on plot alone. Buffy is an ok show. It suffers from being too zany like all his work and xander is possibly the worst character ever invented but its fun. Its not a cultural icon like GOT.

I would say Buffy is a culturally iconic show and its one of the reasons a show like Game of Thrones with all its monsters and magic is able to get on TV. Xander is the best character, because he has zero powers and still willing to jump into the fight.

[Pete Cash]

Xander is an unfunny dweeb who I wouldn't want to associate with it we were the last two people on earth.

[Pete Cash]

Also Buffy did SHIT for GOT fantasy has been on tv since the fucking twilight zone but Hercules, the x files, Sabrina the teenage witch (hey no one said the show had to be good), touched by an angel, etc all had supernatural or fantastical elements and were all pre Buffy. Hell charmed is a contemporary of Buffy as well.

Even the books themselves were published pre Buffy. They are also heavily political and based on real historical events but changed slightly. HBO spent zillions of dollars on Rome and GOT is a lot closer to Rome than Buffy for goodness sake :lol:

[Beefy]

Curb is on the list and that's improved.

Curb isn't entirely improvised. If anything I'd say that the way that improv works in Curb is a testament to the way that the show is written. The actors have room to move with the actual words that they're saying but they're looking to achieve something very specific in each scene and the fact that pretty much every episode culminates in three story strands coming together perfectly in the final scene shows what a good job the writers have done.

Friends should be higher in this list. Lost shouldn't be on it at all, IMO.

[lotjx]

I am just saying its easier for a show with Dragons and magic when you have a hit in Buffy that was taken seriously to some degree. Minus Twilight Zone, the other shows were never taken seriously. Buffy turned wacky high school supernatural series into a show that got nominated for Emmies and lead to Angel, Firefly, Dollhouse and yeah...a little movie called Avengers. Buffy was also one of the first serial shows which Game of Throne is using. Even if the books were written before Buffy, they would weren't made until now. To be fair, season one could have been made in the 90s after Jurassic Park came out to lead the CGI generation. They could have toned down the sex and done everything, you are seeing now. It is on now thanks to shows like Buffy and Angel as well as others paving the way with showing special effects and stories dealing with the supernatural could be considered hits.

Red Wedding is nice and all, but it could be the episode that shot the series in the foot. The finale was a giant let down after that. This show has a bad habit of doing something big in the episode before the final and then doing nothing for the finale. Season one, it was fine, but this is the third season with that type of ending. The end of season two had a great shot, but in the scheme of season 3, it was meaningless.Book and Show The Walkers are doing nothing for 5 books already and we expect them to cover the entire world into darkess? Yeah, I don't think so. Too much time playing sex games than storytelling is the problem with this show.

I would wager there is more Xanders on this forum than Tyrions. He is the common man and him being the nerd is the point. He is an outcast like the rest of them and yet, he fights the good fight unlike most of us in that situation.

[The_Mike]

So a Buffy episode never made the papers on plot alone. Buffy is an ok show. It suffers from being too zany like all his work and xander is possibly the worst character ever invented but its fun. Its not a cultural icon like GOT.

To be fair, if Buffy was a cultural touchstone show it would have manifested in a very different form in the 1990s than with Game of Thrones today. Game of Thrones made newspaper headlines and was talked about on news shows because it floods twitter and facebook and political blogs every week. None of that was around to form a feedback loop to get Buffy on the front page. Its storylines, from the school shooting to the lesbian love affair, did make waves in the US and UK. The BBC were repeatedly in trouble with the Catholic Church and pressure groups for airing it at all, and frequently in trouble with fans for censoring it, so it was at least a big enough target for people to bicker about.

I'm not saying Buffy was ever as big as GoT, but it's not like they are being measured on an even playing field.

The thing I always liked about Xander was that he wasn't just the typical high school outcast, he was the outcast among the outcasts. No special powers, no amazing qualities, not remotely handsome enough for Buffy (though naturally the casting made him merely Hollywood ugly, at worst), and not very comfortable with the supernatural for quite some time. He was always the outsider who tried to do the right thing for the group anyway. He remained interesting to me because he consistently failed to really achieve what he wanted.

[Mark Hammer]

This is the first time I've ever seen GoT compared to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. :lol:

[Jimmy Zero]

I definitely would not consider Buffy an iconic show, especially not during it's initial broadcast run. It was well written, sure, but it never really reached higher than cult hit status. It was, overall, a fairly specific demographic that the show resonated with, naturally, and didn't really ever achieve significant crossover success. The X-Files was iconic. Buffy was just a decent show with a rabid following. Pretty much just like everything else Whedon had done until the Avengers.

[lotjx]

You can make the same argument with Game of Thrones and their season finale 2.9 rating. Its a hit, because of the network its on that is a subscription service and do the fact that is a nerd show disguised in blood and boobs. It is like Mike said, Thrones does well, because we live in the social media age and illegal downloading is not as hard as it was back in the day. Buffy suffers from the fate that their network was shit thus its no longer around. If they were on Fox like X-Files, it might be considered by others as an iconic show, I do consider it iconic.

[Jimmy Zero]

Wait, Game of Thrones is a hit because you have to pay to watch it?

[Gary J]

Buffy went shit soon as Angel left and got his own far superior show.

[lotjx]

Wait, Game of Thrones is a hit because you have to pay to watch it?

Its a hit, because the network its on, gets shit ratings where a 2.9 is considered good which is fine for cable, but its not like its setting the world on fire with their ratings. Its not like MASH or Cheers or Seinfeld. Its ratings are closer to where Buffy was on WB. So, to say its this cultural touchstone is not really the case. It is helped by the social media presence and the critics liking much in the same way Buffy was. Yes, Angel was a better show until the disastrous season 3, thankfully season 4 was awesome. I would still put Buffy's first three seasons against any three seasons on television.

[Cewsh]

Dude, a 2.9 on a subscription network is an astounding number because of the limited eyes it reaches. It translates to like a 12 on cable.

[The_Mike]

So, to say its this cultural touchstone is not really the case. It is helped by the social media presence and the critics liking much in the same way Buffy was. Yes, Angel was a better show until the disastrous season 3, thankfully season 4 was awesome. I would still put Buffy's first three seasons against any three seasons on television.

I wouldn't go that far. Game of Thrones clearly has tapped something in the cultural consciousness, because it's not as if newsrooms are covering the happenings in Castle or Hannibal or other shows right now. Like I said, the social media trend seems to have formed a feedback loop that makes the show more exciting and gets more people involved in looking at it and talking about it, but it's a different ballgame now. Grandma is on Twitter. Bill O'Reilly knows what Facebook is. In 1997, an Internet message board with a few hundred people on it was considered busy in its niche and completely unknown by anybody else on Earth.


Dude, a 2.9 on a subscription network is an astounding number because of the limited eyes it reaches. It translates to like a 12 on cable.

I think his point is that it's still not as if it is being seen by 20% of the country every week or something. The limited number of eyes it reaches was, I think, what he was trying to make an issue of. It's a cultural phenomenon to be sure, but it's not actually being seen by a significantly larger portion of the population than Buffy ever was. Seasons 2 and 3 of Buffy were watched by essentially the same number of people as the most popular GoT episode ever. Its cultural penetration is coming from something more complex than more people saw it.

[lotjx]

I wouldn't go that far. Game of Thrones clearly has tapped something in the cultural consciousness, because it's not as if newsrooms are covering the happenings in Castle or Hannibal or other shows right now. Like I said, the social media trend seems to have formed a feedback loop that makes the show more exciting and gets more people involved in looking at it and talking about it, but it's a different ballgame now. Grandma is on Twitter. Bill O'Reilly knows what Facebook is. In 1997, an Internet message board with a few hundred people on it was considered busy in its niche and completely unknown by anybody else on Earth.


I think his point is that it's still not as if it is being seen by 20% of the country every week or something. The limited number of eyes it reaches was, I think, what he was trying to make an issue of. It's a cultural phenomenon to be sure, but it's not actually being seen by a significantly larger portion of the population than Buffy ever was. Seasons 2 and 3 of Buffy were watched by essentially the same number of people as the most popular GoT episode ever. Its cultural penetration is coming from something more complex than more people saw it.

Yes, perhaps, I didn't convey it well, but that is my point. The same amount of people are watching Thrones as that were watching Buffy, but thanks to advances in tech, we turn things like the Red Wedding into OMG Event of the Year. When if you watched Buffy, Season 2 with the death of Jenny Calendar and Buffy killing Angel to save the world would be OMG Event of the Year moments. The reverse works in favor for shows like All in the Family, MASH and most of the pre-cable boom shows, because more people were watching it and they did become hallmark moments. I can't imagine what Who Shot JR? would be like with social media, perhaps it would be turned into a joke into 10 minutes, but it would have been spoiled by June or the internet would explode to the various fan theories for 3 to 4 months.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Yes, perhaps, I didn't convey it well, but that is my point. The same amount of people are watching Thrones as that were watching Buffy, but thanks to advances in tech, we turn things like the Red Wedding into OMG Event of the Year. When if you watched Buffy, Season 2 with the death of Jenny Calendar and Buffy killing Angel to save the world would be OMG Event of the Year moments.

No they wouldn't. Buffy was a show for gay teenagers. It has no wider cultural impact than amongst gay teenagers.

[lotjx]

No they wouldn't. Buffy was a show for gay teenagers. It has no wider cultural impact than amongst gay teenagers.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. I am straight as are all my friends who watched the show even those of different races. It may have more meaning for gay teenagers, but it still had an impact. So, by that logic, does that mean the only cultural impact for Game of Throne is midgets and insecticidal families or meth heads for Breaking Bad? I guess you can only get Mad Men if you were a straight white guy who hates women and likes to rhyme? Idiotic.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

How is that the same logic?

[Jimmy Zero]

I think his point is that it's still not as if it is being seen by 20% of the country every week or something. The limited number of eyes it reaches was, I think, what he was trying to make an issue of. It's a cultural phenomenon to be sure, but it's not actually being seen by a significantly larger portion of the population than Buffy ever was. Seasons 2 and 3 of Buffy were watched by essentially the same number of people as the most popular GoT episode ever. Its cultural penetration is coming from something more complex than more people saw it.

Yes, but when you factor in people watching it via OnDemand, or HBO's online subscription service, the number jumps to around 15 million people. Granted, Buffy didn't have those opportunities when it was being aired in the late-90's, but that's hardly GoT's fault. Fact is, GoT reaches WAY more people than Buffy ever did.

And, quite frankly, I agree with ECG that the appeal of GoT is much broader than Buffy. Though I can see that Buffy is a well written, fairly well acted show, it has still always bored me to tears because I have no desire to sit and watch boring ass whiny people pining after other boring ass whiny people in between boring ass vampire fights. The only people I personally know who are into that show are girls who watched it when they were in high school during its initial run, and gay people. Contrast that with the fact that virtually every person I know is massively into GoT, and its really not hard to see why people are starting to consider it an iconic show. I don't deny that that's purely anecdotal evidence, but you never saw the guys on Sportscenter making Buffy references.

[Jimmy Zero]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. I am straight as are all my friends who watched the show even those of different races. It may have more meaning for gay teenagers, but it still had an impact. So, by that logic, does that mean the only cultural impact for Game of Throne is midgets and insecticidal families or meth heads for Breaking Bad? I guess you can only get Mad Men if you were a straight white guy who hates women and likes to rhyme? Idiotic.

:wtf:

What?

[Pete Cash]

People don't watch tv like they used to either. No show is going to pull Seinfeld numbers ever again. Look at nbc renewing community and parks and rec when they rate worse than freaks and geeks did. The numbers GOT pull are simply crazy for modern day tv on subscription tv.

[Pete Cash]

Friends should be higher in this list. Lost shouldn't be on it at all, IMO.

Its interesting the cultural differences at work. I may be wrong here but during the 90s in the UK friends was much bigger than Seinfeld where in Australia its reversed. Friends always seemed lame in comparison. It will always be my argument against British people being funny. Liking an obviously inferior show.

Of course some people in the UK must have watched Seinfeld considering peep show basically just rips off plots from it. Marks engagement is almost identical to Georges

The only modern comedies ahead of it are Seinfeld, the Simpson's, the Larry Sanders show, arrested development and 30 rock.

Now 30 rock will always punch above its weight on these types of things because its about tv but the others should friends really be above any of them ?

[Gary J]

I think Seinfeld did pretty well over here when it was first shown. Even though it wasn't helped by BBC 2 sticking it on at nearly midnight.

[Beefy]

Yeah, Seinfeld never got much of a chance over here because the BBC never got behind it and shafted it around in the scheduling. Whereas Friends was Channel Four's biggest show until Big Brother came along

I discovered both shows after they'd finished (well, I'd seen a few episodes of Friends but wrote it off as an instantly forgettable, over-hyped and shallow show). Now I love both of them. Seinfeld is the better show but Friends is amazingly well-written which was my original point.

[Mark Hammer]

The only modern comedies ahead of it are Seinfeld, the Simpson's, the Larry Sanders show, arrested development and 30 rock.

Modern comedies?

[Jimmy Zero]

I don't really think Friends is particularly well written, at all.

It's the same Ross/Rachel will they/won't they bullshit for almost the entire run of the show. If anything, what made Friends work was the chemistry the cast had together, since the writing was literally recycling the same hard luck lovers storyline for almost the entire series. Fun fact, virtually all but one of the Friends seasons featured some sort of Ross/Rachel cliff hanger. For real. I don't really know how going to the same well so often can constitute good writing.

[Cewsh]

Because it was stunningly effective and trend setting.

[Jimmy Zero]

I'm talking about the show, not Rachel's haircut.

And neither of those things means the writing on Friends was good. Just repetitive.

[MikeHunt]

Friends is shit. It always was shit.

[Version 6]

Because it was stunningly effective and trend setting.

Effective, yes. The numbers don't lie.

But trend setting? Not so much. Adding serious dramatic/romantic elements into comedic shows had been done for decades prior. I'm only 28, but Taxi, Cheers, the Wonder Years and Roseanne spring to mind immediately and I'm sure there are many more. The only thing Friends did differently is to make sure that every member of the central cast was ridiculously good looking.

[Beer-Belly]

Friends is shit. It always was shit.

Pretty much. Ross might be the lamest character in TV history.

[Mark Hammer]

Friends was good but I agree that Ross was very lame.

[VanillaJello]

Pretty much. Ross might be the lamest character in TV history.

Balanced out by one of the better characters of all-time, Chandler Bing.

[Vice]

Miss Chanandler Bong.

[Pete Cash]

Modern comedies?

Sort of post Seinfeld I feel there was a tonal shift in comedy so its difficult to compare say cheers and Seinfeld despite them being contemporaries and even harder to compare arrested development..

[Mark Hammer]

That makes since. I thought perhaps you were much older than I thought when you included Seinfeld, which ended in 1997 iirc.

[The_Mike]

I found Friends enjoyable and funny, but the writing had serious issues that I think were well covered in the comedic bastardy thread. These people didn't seem like friends so much as a collection of well-connected sociopaths. Ross and Phoebe especially.

[VanillaJello]

I found Friends enjoyable and funny, but the writing had serious issues that I think were well covered in the comedic bastardy thread. These people didn't seem like friends so much as a collection of well-connected sociopaths. Ross and Phoebe especially.

Has there been any recent comedy where the characters are actually good people? Hell, look at Seinfeld, they're all terrible human beings.

[The_Mike]

Has there been any recent comedy where the characters are actually good people? Hell, look at Seinfeld, they're all terrible human beings.

I think that's a very good question. I haven't really watched sitcoms in quite a while, but nothing jumps out at me. I've watched a couple of episodes of The Big Bang Theory and the girl in that seemed to be a fairly nice and normal person for that short period, though Sheldon was an inhuman monster. Last sit I recall where a major member of the cast was for the most part a really decent human being was Dougal in Father Ted, and he was an idiot hanging out with a conniving thief and a drunk sexual predator. Sitcoms are basically set up to highlight unsavoury traits in people and exploit and thwart them to various degrees, but I could be missing some obvious exception.

[Beefy]

Joey is the only decent person in Friends. But the characters from Seinfeld make the guys and girls in Friends look like Saints.

[lotjx]

I am Ok with Cheers where the people albeit drunks were nice drunks. No one was a real asshole, but Carla, but half the time, she was dead on about shit. I go with Cheers with the formula if you can have decent people in a comedy, its all about setting, storytelling and how well they interact with each other.

[Chris]

I'd say Frasier had a cast of generally decent people. They were certainly posh or neurotic in their own ways. But Frasier and NIles were both in professions where they helped others, Martin was the moral compass as the ex-police officer and Daphne went to extremes in her various housekeeping roles. Roz liked to play the field, but her approach to life was quite believable and her character was softened as the show went on.

[Jimmy Zero]

I'd say The Office has decent people. Michael Scott, for all his offensive behavior and obliviousness, is essentially a decent human. He's well meaning and truly cared for the people he worked with, though showed it in completely offensive, socially retarded and misguided ways. Hell, even Dwight has his moments of being a good guy.

[Cewsh]

Has there been any recent comedy where the characters are actually good people?

There's really only one person that comes to mind.

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/3130910982/9473e51de271c568208b629dae2ca2ff.jpeg

[Vice]

Modern Family has a fairly non-terrible cast.

[Peter Griffin]

Sorry Cewsh has to steal that pic :D

[Mark Hammer]

Joey is the only decent person in Friends. But the characters from Seinfeld make the guys and girls in Friends look like Saints.

Especially George Costanza, the fat prick. He'd be an on-screen heel if the focus on him wasn't so damn funny.

[Mark Hammer]

And just so everyone knows, Julia Louis-Dreyfus is still hot.

[Simmo Fortyone]

Has there been any recent comedy where the characters are actually good people? Hell, look at Seinfeld, they're all terrible human beings.
Parks And Recreation. But that's very much an exception to the rule. There was a good thread on here a while ago called "Comedic bastardry in sitcoms" or similar which went through just about every example in history.

This thread has been amazing. Buffy a cultural icon :lol:

[Version 6]

There's be an argument for Community as well.

Abed, Annie, Troy, Britta and Shirley are all reasonably well intentioned people.

[son_of_foley]

Modern Family has a fairly non-terrible cast.

Also Blake from Workaholics is a lovely lovely man.

[Bill Casey]

I've watched a couple of episodes of The Big Bang Theory and the girl in that seemed to be a fairly nice and normal person for that short period, though Sheldon was an inhuman monster.
Leonard is neurotic but typically a decent human being. Sometimes to a fault...

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6796/shotgun.jpg

Although he becomes more of a jerk as the series progresses...

[Ringo]

I'm just upset about all the Ross Geller hate in this thread. :(

[Pete Cash]

All the obvious ones have been mentioned but post Seinfeld there has certainly been a swing towards pretty unsympathetic characters. A good one is Michael Bluth who seems like he is supposed to be the sympathetic straight man but is actually as big a dickhead as the rest of the family.

[Pete Cash]

There's be an argument for Community as well.

Abed, Annie, Troy, Britta and Shirley are all reasonably well intentioned people.

Even Jeff is the jerk with the heart of gold

[Version 6]

All the obvious ones have been mentioned but post Seinfeld there has certainly been a swing towards pretty unsympathetic characters. A good one is Michael Bluth who seems like he is supposed to be the sympathetic straight man but is actually as big a dickhead as the rest of the family.

I think season 3 ends with George Michael and Michael as sympathetic characters. Michael has a selfish streak at points in Season 3 but is in essence still good intentioned.

It's in Season 4 where both George Michael and Michael really embrace the selfish aspects of their personality. Michael inparticular pretty much goes full Bluth.

[Version 6]

Even Jeff is the jerk with the heart of gold

And Pearce is the racist homophobe who deep down is just scared of change, has father issues and wants to be loved.

[Pete Cash]

Especially George Costanza, the fat prick. He'd be an on-screen heel if the focus on him wasn't so damn funny.

I feel for George because he was the only of the four who really ever got his comeuppance on a regular basis. Jerry was mugging old ladies for bread and completely egged on Georges destructive behaviour. Kramer was obviously one of the most selfish characters to ever exist and Elaine really was a violent maniac at times.

Yet it was poor old George the world shit on to hilarious results

There was only two times Jason Alexander copped a negative response for the actions of George. How he treated Susan especially over her death and eating the eclair out the bin when he crossed the line between man and bum.

[Pete Cash]

I think season 3 ends with George Michael and Michael as sympathetic characters. Michael has a selfish streak at points in Season 3 but is in essence still good intentioned.

It's in Season 4 where both George Michael and Michael really embrace the selfish aspects of their personality. Michael inparticular pretty much goes full Bluth.

I think while he was trying to hold the bluth family together and had purpose he mostly did the right thing. When that went in season 4 obviously that's when he went full Bluth as you say

But his jerkness does shine through occasionally. Obviously one can understand his occasional shabby treatment of GOB who while a jerk just desired Michael's approval but there is certainly a parallel between the over the top competitive way that George brought up Michael and how Michael is raising George Michael.

I'm proud....minus

[Pete Cash]

But he's no Tobias who might be the biggest comedic bastard of all time when you sit down and think how selfish that character is.

Incidentally if any Americans liked Seinfeld I'd recommend Peep show which is in many ways an English version. The writers were obviously very influenced by Seinfeld and it has some of the more unsympathetic comedy bastards of all time on it.