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View Full Version : The 9th Annual Wilfred's Debates - Championship Match -The Law vs. DDT



Cewsh
June 7th, 2013, 2:26 PM
http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/CewshReviews/aa4d597e-f66a-471b-8109-10458ab2d7a5_zps1cb7e720.jpg



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WWE WRESTLING FORUM VS. GENERAL WRESTLING FORUM


Welcome to the final round of Wilfred's. To this point you have proven your mettle in all kinds of different debates that challenged you in every way possible. It has all been to prepare you for this moment, where you will face the highest debate mountain that can be scaled, and only one of you will look down from the peak as the Wilfred's Grand Champion. Are you ready? Well best of luck.

You're going to need it.


WHAT IS THE GREATEST MATCH IN WWE HISTORY?


As a reminder, the rules are as follows. If you break a rule, there will be no excuses taken, so read them carefully. Each debate will have a 72 hour time limit, a 350 word word limit. Videos and pictures are not only allowed, they're downright encouraged.

Also, to finally address the issue of the first one to go or the second having the advantage, a coin will be flipped by me in advance to determine who goes first or second. Completely fair odds for everyone.

If you have any questions about the question you are given, or about how to proceed, please direct them to me BEFORE you post about them, to avoid troubles.

You must wait your turn to post, meaning that you can't rattle off all three right from the get go, you have to post in turns with your opponent and, this is very fucking important, IF YOU GET THE COIN TOSS TO GO SECOND, YOUR INTRODUCTION POST CAN NOT BE A RESPONSE TO THE OTHER GUY'S INTRODUCTION POST.

You must wait until your second post to begin debating what the other person has said. This is the only way to make this fair, it is not up for debate, and I will penalize your asses. So be fucking told.

Your judges are former Wilfred's champions Badger and the_man_diva.


The coin toss dictates that The Law will go first.

The Law
June 7th, 2013, 3:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObbB7L5RCH8

Some matches have great action. Some tell a great story. Some have historical significance. This one had all three. In spades. Steve Austin and Bret Hart had one of the most realistic, intense brawls in the history of wrestling and in the process changed the course of wrestling history. Allow me to explain, in bullet points, why this is the best:

-They beat the shit out of each other in a staggeringly realistic and entertaining way. This felt like an actual fight between two guys who hated each other.

-The story is among the best I've ever seen. Steve Austin spent months fucking with Bret Hart. Insulted him, insulted his family, and eventually physically assaulted him and members of his family. Bret handled this in his typical noble Bret Hart way, but as some point something snapped. Whether it was being screwed by Austin at the Royal Rumble, or on the Raw after Final Four when he lost the title, or in the cage match the week before Mania, he went off the deep end. This was his chance to finally get even with Steve Austin. To make him pay for his sins.And so he beat him all over the arena. He beat him with the ring bell and a chair. And he slapped on his finishing hold, trying to squeeze the life out of him. Friedrich Nietzsche said that "He who fights monsters may eventually become one" (sort of, it's a paraphrase of a translation). In this match, we witnessed Bret Hart become the monster he was trying to fight.

-And the historical significance: Huge. This is the match that made Steve Austin a superstar. Most people cite this as the beginning of the Attitude Era, possibly the most successful period in the history of the company and definitely the one that saved it from extinction.

This match made one guy the biggest heel in the company, turned Austin into the top face, and saved the WWF from extinction. Yup, this was the greatest match ever.

DDT
June 8th, 2013, 12:13 PM
When asking what the greatest WWE match of all time is, you are open to a lot of subjectivity, as different people prefer different things. They like first-times, they like big fight atmosphere, they like great action, they like big venues, they like real emotion; I suppose the best match would have to be one that includes all the above. “Something for everyone” if you will.

Fortunately, my choice does just that.



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5ua6k_randy-savage-vs-ric-flair-1-2_people#.UbNIvflthMI
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5uat4_randy-savage-vs-ric-flair-2-2_people#.UbNS3_lthMI


“Macho Man” Randy Savage was named the number one contender for Ric Flair’s WWF championship. Ric Flair was not happy about his first-ever Wrestlemania opponent being someone not named Hulk Hogan, so he took it out on Savage in ways that were just downright low. In the weeks leading up to the match, all Flair did was make insinuations that he had slept with Savage’s wife Miss Elizabeth, even threatening to spread steamy photos all over the nearly-filled Hoosier Dome and take her out to one last ride on Space Mountain.

Savage, being Savage, takes this about as well as you might expect, and proceeds to beat the living shit out of Ric Flair. Every time it’s a fair fight, it’s all Savage. But “fair” and “Flair” go together like oil and water; he’s got Mr. Perfect on the outside running interference, handing brass knucks, and swinging chairs. He’s got Bobby the Brain on commentary at his absolute best, running down Savage and Elizabeth at every opportunity. Eventually their dastardly cheating is too much for Miss Elizabeth to stand for anymore, and she storms down to ringside, despite several officials demanding that she return to the back.

Finally, with Flair rubbing it in Elizabeth’s face, he tries to finish it, but Savage rolls him up for three, and the place explodes. And then, it only gets better from there, with post match brawls, interviews, and setting up for more greatness to come, which it did.

This match is the perfect summation of everything that is good and right about WWF(E) and frankly all of professional wrestling: big fight, bright lights, and emotion. It is, simply the best ever.

The Law
June 9th, 2013, 9:36 PM
Action. Story. History. Those are the three elements that make a match great. And while Flair/Savage certainly has all three, it falls short of Hart and Austin on all three counts.

-Action: Flair/Savage was an excellent match for the time. With the passage of time, it's still very good, but falls short of what we expect from a modern classic. Much the match is stalling and holds. There's a place for that, but it's hard to call the greatest match ever one with that much down time. Austin and Hart beat the hell out of each other for 22 minutes they fought. They fought all over the arena, in and out of the ring.

-Story: Nothing tops it for story. Bret Hart's turn to the dark side was the equivalent of a film. He slowly lost his mind listening to the crowd cheer Austin and being unable to put him away. Finally, he snapped and decided that if the crowd was going to boo him, he would give them a reason to boo. Bret became the monster he had spent his entire career fighting. In contrast, the Flair/Savage story, while great, is something that we've seen many times before: Devious heel screws with the face and gets beaten by the face for revenge. In contrast, the double turn is much rarer and has never, ever been executed better than in this match.

History: This match changed the course of wrestling history. Bret Hart turned heel for the first time in a decade, probably hastening his depature from the WWF. Steve Austin turned face and led the boom period that saved the WWF and put WCW out of business. This match kicked off WWE's greatest boom period, and is one of the most important matches in the history of wrestling. Flair/Savage, while great, ultimately is of lesser historical significance. It was the highlight of Flair's WWE run, and Savage's second title. Not on the level as the match that changed wrestling. Austin in the Sharpshooter remains the most iconic image in WWE history.

Action. Story. History. Bret/Austin wins on all three counts.

DDT
June 10th, 2013, 2:53 AM
I’m not sure you even watched Savage vs. Flair. Holds? Downtime? You mean Flair’s control segment where he was nailing Savage with chops stiffer than any Hart or Austin punch, building tension for the big Savage comeback where every fan went crazy for everything Savage did, including of all things mounted punches? Do you mean the out-of-ring action that was more visible, more effective, and had less annoying “Look at me!” fans? Where people actually cared about Savage winning the match, as opposed to just caring about violence? If so, then yes, there was, “downtime.”

However, I would try and avoid that nasty buzzword when your match features Austin applying some of the most blatant rest hold “submissions” I’ve ever seen.

The mechanics in Austin/Hart are a mess. Both men take vicious bumps, only to offensively assume control of the match three seconds later. Hart took a chair shot to the head and won in dominate fashion. Austin got his leg destroyed by a chair yet was walking without even a limp. Whether it’s in terms of their pacing, their selling damage, and especially transitions between control segments, Savage/Flair is unquestionably superior. Even in the “extras”, the results are clear: Elizabeth garners more sympathy than Bret’s family, and Monsoon/Heenan own McMahon’s Trio.

The story is more impressive told than seen; Hart was almost outlandish in the weeks before trying to turn heel, barely succeeded after the match, and he had to take a cheesy “Hate USA” gimmick to make it stick. Flair/Savage’s story, for all its “simplicity” was accepted by the fans wholeheartedly.


You keep touting the “historical significance” of this match, and I’m not sure why. Does being the best match on a widely accepted shit-show make it the greatest, or is it being a pit stop on a road that would eventually lead to the feud that was the actual beginning of the boom period that placed WWF on equal footing with WCW?




Neither is as impressive as a first-ever meeting between two legends.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D2c0qfyz15I/TuSB8ve6gpI/AAAAAAAABq8/0Dz5gptlYIU/s1600/WWE-WWF_Wrestlemania-VIII_Ric-Flair_vs_Machoman-Randy-Savage.jpg



You’re right, Action, History, Story, one of these matches clearly wins: Savage vs. Flair.

The Law
June 10th, 2013, 10:53 PM
Steve Austin and Bret Hart altered the course of wrestling history at Wrestlemania 13. This is the match that made Steve Austin a top star. The match that started the run that saved the WWF and won the Monday Night War. Has anyone ever been put over more strongly in a loss than Austin was here? They made a top babyface and a top heel in the same match. Never been done before. Never been done since.

The action in this match is outstanding. It feels like a real fight. This was also one of the matches that brought the hardcore brawl style to the WWF, a style that would dominate for the rest of the Attitude Era. I've never seen a more physical, intense match. I could watch these guys fight like this for hours and not get tired.

The story makes the match: Bret Hart lost himself trying to destroy Steve Austin. In the process, he lost the fans and lost his faith in the way he had lived his life for years. And that was the end of squeaky clean babyfaces. In came anti-heroes, led by Austin. This match really did change the course of professional wrestling history. Can't say the same thing about Flair/Savage.

You're right, Wrestlemania 13 sucked. The lone bright spot was this ***** match. And by next year, WWF's product was on fire, led by Steve Austin. The guy who was made by this match. This was the birth of the Attitude Era. The period that saved the WWF and won the Monday Night War. And yes, this match made Austin. He entered to a mixed response and left as the most over face in the company. How many times have we seen Austin in the Sharpshooter over the years? In contrast, when have we ever seen or heard of the Flair/Savage match again? I loved it, but it lacks historical significance.

If not for the Austin/Hart match, the WWF might have lost the Monday Night War and gone out of business. If Flair/Savage hadn't happened...we would have gotten Flair/Hogan instead.

DDT
June 11th, 2013, 3:21 AM
I noticed that you had not one thing to say about my corrections of your misrepresentation on Savage/Flair, nor the ways it compares favorably to Austin/Hart. Yet even with this admission by silence, you continue to harp on the same points, hoping that nostalgia will triumph.

You keep desperately saying the action is “outstanding,” and “feels like a real fight,” but offer no examples of HOW it is either of those. The reason you haven’t done that is because there are no examples. Austin gets shoved hard into a post, than beats Bret throughout the crowd. Austin hits his Stunner, than Bret beats on his leg, which Austin sells like a mosquito bite. Savage/Flair felt more like a fight than this cartoon.

I find it extremely curious that someone who so articulately explained the problems of the hardcore brawling style in a previous debate would now sing its praises here, especially given how the very next match proceeded to take a 10-minute dump on everything Austin/Hart did.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=179C5z6M76s&t=115m24s


Your views on the story of the match are little better. Savage beats Flair, so Flair kisses Elizabeth, leading to an awesome brawl and two amazing promos. Bret beats Austin and gets cheered, forcing him to attack Austin to finally get the reaction WWE wanted. You cite the double-turn like it was revolutionary booking when it is a wrestling trope dating back to 1988, and cite Austin as a top babyface when after the feud he was back in the mid-card, wrestling over the Intercontinental title for the rest of the year.

As for history, I could point out various events that were arguably more important for the Attitude Era than Austin/Hart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx-O9_yp3i8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmElRraCZ1w&t=3m18s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_We-A6qnudE&t=24m36s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_We-A6qnudE&t=28m57s

I could point out your continuous dismissal of a first-ever meeting with two legends, whose feud would help sell out Summerslam at Wembley Stadium (resulting in one of the three largest crowds ever and securing the European market), as historically insulting.

But why? You failed “Action” and “Story” is shaky; “Historic," your last leg, isn’t enough, otherwise Hogan/Andre would be the greatest WWE match ever.

Austin/Hart is nostalgic, Savage/Flair is timeless.

Cewsh
June 11th, 2013, 9:37 AM
THIS TIE IS CLOSED.

VOTING WILL BEGIN NOW AND CONTINUE UNTIL SATURDAY.

Rip
June 11th, 2013, 9:50 AM
DDT

Simply a better put together argument and debate, personally I agree with Law but that's not what you're supposed to vote for in a debate and DDT hit his spots.

Kimura Kid
June 11th, 2013, 10:01 AM
I'll vote for DDT as well. Although, like RIP I agree with Law's match selection.

I felt like DDT made a better argument for his match. I felt like The Law reiterated almost everything he said in his 2nd again post in his 3rd post. Instead of countering DDT's rebuttal.

FaSho34
June 11th, 2013, 12:45 PM
DDT

Though DDT made some points I disagree with, I feel The Law did himself in by stating over and over about them beating the hell out of each other. DDT capitalized on that.

Slare
June 11th, 2013, 1:47 PM
The Law - More concise. Gets more points in with less words, doesn't dance around it. Preffered Law more accessable rundown of the story and consequences of the match. Felt DDT was slightly relying on a 'no, i disagree' argument, rather than proper counterpoints. Total nitpicking because it was great stuff from both sides but Law edged it for me.

Kneeneighbor
June 11th, 2013, 3:54 PM
DDT- One thing that I liked was how he talked about the announcers in the match. So often the announcers and the crowd are overlooked when evaluating a match.

maxxmisery
June 12th, 2013, 12:44 AM
Gotta go with DDT

For the same reasons listed above, more concise with his argument and bringing up the announcers and the atmosphere of the whole thing. Two truly great matches, and both debaters did a great job.

Mills
June 12th, 2013, 1:05 AM
Going in, I thought Law had it in the bag as there was no contest between the two matches. However, DDT put down a great fight and overcame the odds, utilizing strong points and nailing it in the final post. Nice work everyone, but DDT takes it

Matty C
June 12th, 2013, 4:48 PM
DDT. I had to sit on this for a bit because of how strongly I disagreed with his choice. I was having trouble acknowledging his points without countering them in my head but that's me, in my head, and that doesn't count. I didn't see a lot of those come out in Law's argument and I think DDT sealed it in mentioning that The Law seemed to just be repeating the same points, rather than expanding and deflecting DDT's counter-points.

Cewsh
June 14th, 2013, 4:22 PM
ONE DAY LEFT TO VOTE!

Cewsh
June 17th, 2013, 11:05 AM
VOTING IS NOW CLOSED.


Popular Vote: DDT (7-1)

Judge Badger: DDT


In all honesty I would have never chosen either of these matches, but then I can only judge what is put in front of me. DDT had this thing won by the second post in all honestly, he made a lot of good points here that were not really countered well at all by Law in his last post. Throughout this debate, I felt Law clung onto the fact about how he felt Bret/Austin changed the course of the Attitude Era but did little to rebut about DDT's points about the match's psychology and also in the grand scheme of things, the match was not that important to the Attitude Era which DDT really pounded on in his final post with numerous examples.

So with that, I would award the title to DDT. Congrats bud, didn't think you were gonna win this whole thing but you did. Also congrats to the Law for nearly pulling out this whole thing in his first go. Next year could very well be Law's year.

Judge Diva: DDT


DDT, sorry this was late on my part, work has stomped me this week with Father's Day. DDT really showcased the reasoning behind his selection very well and really outshined The Law who, I feel, just kept repeating himself ... GREAT selection by The Law that very well stands out as one of the all-time greatest encounters in the ring, but DDT swipes my vote with his better and more thought out argument. Both men should feel proud for having such a great encounter.



THE WINNER OF THIS TIE, AND NEW WILFRED'S DEBATE GRAND CHAMPION IS...

DDT! (3-0)