The 9th Annual Wilfred's Debates - Final Four - DDT vs. Kdestiny

[Cewsh]

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GENERAL WRESTLING FORUM VS. BOARD GAMES FORUM


Oh, you guys knew this one was coming.


SHOULD JOHN CENA TURN HEEL IN 2013?


Kdestiny: Yes
DDT: No


As a reminder, the rules are as follows. If you break a rule, there will be no excuses taken, so read them carefully. Each debate will have a 72 hour time limit, a 350 word word limit. Videos and pictures are not only allowed, they're downright encouraged.

Also, to finally address the issue of the first one to go or the second having the advantage, a coin will be flipped by me in advance to determine who goes first or second. Completely fair odds for everyone.

If you have any questions about the question you are given, or about how to proceed, please direct them to me BEFORE you post about them, to avoid troubles.

You must wait your turn to post, meaning that you can't rattle off all three right from the get go, you have to post in turns with your opponent and, this is very fucking important, IF YOU GET THE COIN TOSS TO GO SECOND, YOUR INTRODUCTION POST CAN NOT BE A RESPONSE TO THE OTHER GUY'S INTRODUCTION POST.

You must wait until your second post to begin debating what the other person has said. This is the only way to make this fair, it is not up for debate, and I will penalize your asses. So be fucking told.

Your judges are former Wilfred's champions Badger and the_man_diva.


The coin toss dictates that Kdestiny will go first.

[Kdestiny]

John Cena has been many times called the most polarizing figure in WWE history. Why is that?

its because his face act has become one of the most tired things in professional wrestling history. He smiles, he yells promos, he no sells to be a superman to the kids, and for what? Sure, kids still cheer but the majority of the wrestling audience isn't children. According to the WWE website, 75% of the viewers are older than 21 and those age groups tend to hate Cena.

why not make him fresh? Why not give him the heel turn that so many have dreaded? It has been built perfectly of late.

He finally gets redemption on the Rock and he has basically done everything he can do except for one thing...

Beat the streak.

There is no way Cena would be able to outface the Undertaker, so why not have him turn slowly going to Mania to build up what would be a huge contest? Cena has been able to be a heel before, and working with someone like the Undertaker as a platform, it has the capabilities to launch some new options for him as far as possible opponents go.

WWE keeps pushing Cena as their top guy then maybe they should see if he can be top guy and let him play a heel at the biggest stage of them all against the biggest star of them all.

It will sell.

[DDT]

John Cena has been the top babyface of the company since 2006, almost a decade. That is one of the longest runs at the top in wrestling history. While he retains a sizable portion of his original fan base, an equal-sized portion has turned on him. The internet has championed their cause, clamoring for a heel turn from Mr. Cena. Surely going from goofy smiles and hanging out with special-needs kids to Super-Jerk will be a nice change of pace, right? For now, let’s ignore the fact that John Cena is the merchandise king, and that whole Make-A-Wish foundation thing. No, let’s focus on something a bit more concrete.

What this line of thought does is ignore the huge elephant in the room; who is going to replace Cena as the top babyface?

No seriously, who have they got? Rock’s gone as any kind of long term player. Brock Lesnar is evil incarnate. Undertaker’s on the mend and has shown up less in the past year than either of the gentlemen mentioned, and Rey Mysterio is in a similar boat. Sheamus’ character is starting to confuse people, and Randy Orton has apparently wanted to turn heel for months now. They already tried CM Punk, and he didn’t work out half as well as they wanted, and like Orton is more effective as a heel anyway.

In short, for there to be a top heel, there needs to be a flux of babyface challengers; that is something WWE distinctly lacks. Or do you really think John Cena can just fade back and be, “just another main event heel”? That line of thinking is even sillier than the one that brought us to this point. John Cena is The Man. There is not one single active wrestler on the roster anywhere close to his level; not Ryback, not Alberto Del Rio, no one. The only one who was ever even close was Sin Cara.

Now let’s throw that whole charity thing back in there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opligAImNjE

Turning Cena heel now would be bad for business, bad for publicity, and ultimately bad for the show.

[Kdestiny]

Take a look at one of the biggest stars in all of wrestling, Hulk Hogan.

He not only revived his career, but he flipped the industry upside down by turning heel and he turned WCW into a mega power with his heel turn and creation of nWo.

Cena shares a lot of the similarities with Hogan: kid friendly, superman feel, and that feeling that everything he does has definitely been done before right? It's even been said (main site included) that creative doesn't have much for Cena in the coming months.

build a heel turn to face the streak.

Cena can still be a top guy as a heel. Him being a heel would lead to different challenges. Crowds are already getting behind guys like Sheamus and Daniel Bryan more because they are tired the Cena happy to lucky shtick.

honestly, he wouldn't even need to change his character much either. You look at his work with Make a Wish which is astounding, but you also have to see the work that even some of the heels are doing. The Make a wish connection with WWE will not suffer if Cena turns heel, heck, it may even improve if the kids see him as a more bad ass than a goof ball.

What we need to realize is that turning Cena heel is creating a new and fresh atmosphere for the WWE. Why keep something the way it is if there is no direction? Change can be good, ask CM Punk.

the best need to be able to pull off both heel and face roles effectively, and I feel like it's the perfect time to turn John. He can be the champ while all of the newly minted main event faces go after him, it makes for compelling television and I feel that it could help the ratings more than WWE may want to think it would.

[DDT]

There is a huge problem with your analogy though; Hogan was involved in lame feuds that involved monster trucks, buried beloved company wrestlers like Ric Flair, and least we forget, was deep in old NWA territory, where he was seen as the enemy. Hogan wasn’t getting mixed reactions so much that he was universally hated. Cena is in his own company, has meaningful feuds with relevant stars and is hated by exactly half of every audience he performs in front of.

Hogan also had the benefit of a pool of babyfaces and/or huge stars to help establish the heel turn: Lex Luger, Sting, Giant, Roddy Piper, Goldberg. And any one of them could have credibly taken Hogan’s place as top guy in the company.

You keep pushing this heel turn facing the Undertaker just because no one would cheer Cena. You know who else we thought no one would cheer Cena against: Rock, RVD on an ECW show, Punk in Chicago. And yet each time he kept getting that mixed reaction, and each time no matter how he teased, they never pulled the trigger, for the same reason your scenario wouldn’t work; there’s nothing after. No big babyface to take on John Cena, no rising star that could rise above Captain Hustle, no one. Who are these newly minted babyfaces?

Sheamus needs to work on his character and not getting laughed at in huge matches before he steps up again. Bryan’s getting good reactions, but it’s still in a tumultuous stage, and they’re not sure if they want to go heel or face with him yet.

Speaking of, why would they turn Cena when they are debuting/turning multiple heel acts? Shield, Bray Wyatt, Ryback, heck throw in established ones for good measure like Ziggler’s Pack. Do you want the momentum sucked out of these guys by completely overshadowing them, turning John Cena heel?

I also don’t see how turning John Cena heel WON’T affect his Make-A-Wish work, since it will essentially mean betraying kids.

There’s no point to change if there’s still no direction, which is essentially what you’re proposing.

[Kdestiny]

I feel that this is like Hogan, but not completely the same.

Cena as a heel can be used to elevate faces rather than destroy the push that heels are getting. Do we really have that many credible heels either? Cena can become universally hated very easily by just trolling everyone like Jericho did when he returned with his light up jacket. We thought he was a face, but he got us all. I feel that something like this could easily work for someone like Cena.

Turning heel is great for Cena and great for the company. If Cena is the main face of the brand until he retires, then what?

You need to build someone, and I feel giving Cena the turn and testing the waters with someone else now is much better than shuffling for one if he retires or God forbid he has to leave suddenly.

It would also be good for Cena's legacy. Sure, he is a 10 time WWE Champion and Royal Rumble winner, but most people will remember how annoying he was. Shouldn't he have one moment that comes out of left field and blows everyone away? It would solidify his place in history. Let him work with Bryan, Sheamus, Miz, and Del Rio and let him team with heels like Wyatt, Cesaro, and even Brock Lesnar.

The possibilities are endless for Cena. Either he can cement his legacy as one of the greatest of all time by turning, or he can stay as his happy go lucky face and everyone on the internet will explode every time he wins. If he doesn't have much direction, a turn would give him a new opportunity and a way to seem fresher than he has ever been in his career.

Plus, his Make-A-Wish work will be affected a bit, but you have to understand that there are many WWE superstars that grant wishes too. They aren't going to stop because Cena is a heel, and Cena doesn't have to be a heel forever. Ask the Undertaker. Sometimes a fresh start is needed in wrestling.

His face time is up, and his heel turn is now.

[DDT]

To suggest that John Cena destroys heel pushes is ludicrous. He’s done more to establish successful heel characters than anyone else on the roster.


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Speaking of, here are the credible heels: Mark Henry, CM Punk, Brock Lesnar, Ryback, Shield, and Dolph Ziggler. This is far more than babyfaces. We also have heels waiting in the wings, like Wade Barrett, Bray Wyatt, Axel and Big E. Where’s the babyface equivalent? Kofi Kingston? Hell, your suggestion to have him team with people to get them over would be more beneficial for the babyfaces at this point, yet another reason for him not to turn.

John Cena already has a legacy; the top star of the late 2000’s and early 2010’s, one of the longest runs at the top ever. What more of a legacy does one need? That he placated a group that contains the largest amount of illegal streamers? He gave those people all the response they deserved.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkrruJLwfj8


I’d also like to think that if they were going to turn the biggest star today heel “for legacy’s sake,” they’d have a bit more creativity than copying Chris Jericho’s shtick.

The time to build a new babyface star is when the big babyface is still going strong, not turning him heel and then throwing mid-carders at him hoping someone sticks. That’s worse than irresponsible, that’s asking for failure.

John Cena is the number one most requested celebrity for Make-A-Wish. Not most requested wrestler, or most requested male, most requested; period end of. Cena turning heel would not affect it, “A little bit.” Cena turning heel would affect it, “utterly, completely, and irreversibly.” You are telling little kids with cancer who look to you for inspiration to go hump themselves; that’s not something dying 8-year olds get over.

At the end of the day, your argument has been, “Turn Cena Heel Because Change!” with little suggestion to sustain it, no thought to the consequences of it, and offering only blind hope for its effectiveness. That’s okay, because WWE has the same problem. It’s why, despite the internet’s whining, they have never done it.

[Cewsh]

THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED.

YOU MAY NOW VOTE FOR WHO YOU THINK WON UNTIL JUNE 4TH!

[lotjx]

kdestiny. DDT put up three guys, one of whom he was right about, Cena putting over. Punk's speech put him over and Ziggler did nothing after beating up John expect eat pinfalls. Feel bad for DDT, because this is a fairly tough argument to make, good try though.

[Mills]

I'm going with DDT. Destiny put up a valiant effort and was close but he couldn't overcome DDTs prime question, who will take over for Cena?

[maxxmisery]

Voting DDT

Just going on his debating skills in this one. To me, he just made better points on why Cena should stay face. I must say I agree with kdestiny though that Cena should heel it up. I take his side of the argument, but I think DDT just outdid him.

Good match up either way here, very close one.

[DaSaintFan]

I'm voting DDT.

He nailed every point in terms of the debate. Destiny's entire argument is to get to a "taker-cena' wrestlemania...and that seems to be it. DDT's exactly right on the three big heels and how it was situations with Cena that put them there at the top. DDT won this in a landslide in terms of points of the debate.

[Cewsh]

ONE MORE DAY TO VOTE!

[Kneeneighbor]

Im voting Kdestiny.

I thought everytime DDT made a good point he shot himself in the foot with a stupid example of it.

[Matty C]

I'm going with DDT. Destiny put up a valiant effort and was close but he couldn't overcome DDTs prime question, who will take over for Cena?

Same here. I hate John Cena the wrestling character. He's a massive reason I stopped watching wrestling after being a 25+ year fan. KD had the side I agree with without a doubt but DDT's simple question of "who would take over" really stuck out and I don't think KD had a concrete answer for it. DDT pointed out who was ready in WCW when Hogan turned but it didn't seem to me that KD could do the same in WWE today. So, though he couldn't possibly convince me that his side of the argument is correct, I thought DDT won this one.

[Cewsh]

VOTING IS NOW CLOSED!

Popular Vote: DDT (4-2)

Judge Badger: DDT


A valiant effort from KD but DDT wins this one for me. He was able to demonstrate throughout that long term there would be too many question marks over turning Cena heel and once it happens, who would be able to replace him as THE man.

Judge Diva: DDT


KDestiny Vs. DDT. I vote DDT ... he hit every nail on the head, especially driving home that there is no established face to take over the top spot if Cena were to turn.


THE WINNER OF THIS TIE IS DDT (3-0)!

[Kneeneighbor]

I dont think I have voted for the winner of a tie yet.