The 9th Annual Wilfred's Debates - Round 1 - Rip vs. Bennedy

[Cewsh]

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ASYLUM INMATE CONFERENCE

Now, two new combatants will enter the circle of debate from which only one can proceed. And here is the topic that they will do battle over:

Recently, the forums have been abuzz with conversation about how the WCW/ECW invasion of WWE was, and what improvements could have been made to it. Most people seem to agree that having known WWE favorite Steve Austin lead the Alliance team was a mistake, and distracted from the identity of the invaders. So for the purposes of this debate, I'm sending you both back in time to 2001. And further more, I'm giving you full reign to spend as much money as you want. So, in other words, you have unlimited funds to go out and get any living person you want, and full reign to choose anyone already in WWE, in order to answer the following question...



WHO WAS THE BEST CHOICE TO LEAD THE INVASION?


As a reminder, the rules are as follows. If you break a rule, there will be no excuses taken, so read them carefully.

Each debate will have a 72 hour time limit, a 350 word word limit. Videos and pictures are not only allowed, they're downright encouraged.

Also, to finally address the issue of the first one to go or the second having the advantage, a coin will be flipped by me in advance to determine who goes first or second. Completely fair odds for everyone.

If you have any questions about the question you are given, or about how to proceed, please direct them to me BEFORE you post about them, to avoid troubles.

You must wait your turn to post, meaning that you can't rattle off all three right from the get go, you have to post in turns with your opponent and, this is very fucking important, IF YOU GET THE COIN TOSS TO GO SECOND, YOUR INTRODUCTION POST CAN NOT BE A RESPONSE TO THE OTHER GUY'S INTRODUCTION POST.

You must wait until your second post to begin debating what the other person has said. This is the only way to make this fair, it is not up for debate, and I will penalize your asses. So be fucking told.

Your judges are former Wilfred's champions Badger and the_man_diva.

Now let's get down to business. The coin toss dictates that RIP will go first.

[Rip]

Really?

Simple...

One man, three letters.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI_6FI6FZ0Q

1:48 if you want to get to the point.

The Invasion failed because the original plan, for WCW to be the face group, was poorly put together and the WWE fans booed the WCW 'headline' matches out of the building, WCW should have come in as a strong heel group and one man defined that, he came in AGAINST THE UNDERTAKER with a poorly thought out, badly designed gimmick and STILL blew the roof of the building.

Imagine him as the leader for an edgy WCW/ECW group...

DDP is the ultimate workhorse, he learns and adapts better than anyone else in the business he spent his entire career proving people wrong, proving that by sheer force of determination and personality he could achieve anything, he combines all the best qualities of Dean Ambrose and Paul Heyman in one marketable package.

He is possibly one of the most under-rated wrestlers in history, imagine that passion fuelling a stripped down hungry ECW/WCW team out to tear their way to control of the WWE...

Watch the promo, imagine THAT directed at Vince, driving a hungry team of former Champions into the heart of the WWE.

Got goosebumps yet?

[Bennedy]

The Invasion was an interesting period for the wrestling world. The buy out of WCW will go down as a pivotal moment in the wrestling business. But what followed could have been so much better, if only for Hulkamania and a few of his buddies.

Hulk Hogan is arguably the biggest star the wrestling business has ever seen. He is an icon amongst men. A hero to children worldwide. This man sold out arenas everywhere during the 80's. Some would argue that he made the wrestling business what it is today. Hulkamania and more importantly the NWO would have made the Invasion angle that much bigger.

Imagine the damage Hogan, Nash and Hall could do a year before they actually arrived in the WWF. Terrorising the WWF locker room and facing off against the likes of Rock, Austin and the Undertaker. Hulk Hogan is the biggest star in the wrestling world. He could have become even bigger if he had lead the WCW/ECW alliance against the superstars of the World Wrestling Federation.

[Rip]

Hmm.

Hogan?

The man who required major surgery on both knees in 2001 so would have been unable to wrestle, that Hogan?

The man who was brought back as a heel in 2002 but was so over the creative team had to re-write storylines?

That's your choice as the man to spearhead the heel WCW/ECW invasion?

The man who was despised by the very men your trying to put over, the senior WCW stars, the man who was best friends with the person who many felt responsible for destroying their company, costing them jobs?

This is the man to lead the WCW?

Oh and to round out the plan lets toss Hall and Nash in there as well, to complete the circle of hate why not bring Eric in as manager, he was looking for work...

What you are suggesting is bringing forward the NWO storyline, with a medically unfit star player, the question is WHO WAS THE BEST CHOICE TO LEAD THE INVASION, not should we have brought in the NWO early.

DDP was popular with his peers, he was capable of outstanding promos, to my mind the example I gave is above anything Hogan has produced, certainly above anything he had shown in the immediate few years before the Invasion. Page was an excellent in ring talent at the time capable of wrestling heel or face style against a huge range of opponents, he also had the ability to raise the profile of those he was involved with where as with Hogan it always comes down to the Hogan show, DDP would have lead the Invasion from the front in and out of the ring, his fire and drive would have elevated his companions and driven his opponents to new heights.


Big Show -
Page was the only guy who could build my confidence to the point where I could succeed in this business.


Sting -
Page is someone who will lend a hand and make a difference for the next wave of guys.

[Bennedy]

Hulk Hogan was a much better option than Diamond Dallas Page to lead the invasion. The sheer name power that Hogan brings to the product far eclipses anything DDP have ever brought to the table. Who do you think looks like an actual threat to the WWF, looking at it from a casual fans point of view?

Who would want to be lead by a performer who may be solid in the ring, but has no experience as a main player in the WWF. What superstars would he be able to get on his side?

Hulk Hogan may have needed surgery in 2001, but how much in ring action would he need to partake in? As I mentioned, Hall and Nash would be right beside Hogan and would be able to protect Hulk when things needed to get physical. The Invasion was all about numbers. And Hogan had the contacts such as Nash and Hall who could be brought in to give the Invasion angle that needed star power. Rock was missing through the first half of the Invasion and I think it hurt the product.

Hulk Hogan has experience, knowledge and championships. DDP has all of those but on a much smaller scale. Contrary to popular belief, Hogan does have the respect of his peers in the locker room. It is not always the Hogan show. He put over the Rock (twice), Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar during his 2002 stint with the company. He is currently working in TNA, looking to make the next stars of the wrestling world.

DDP never amounted to anything in the WWF and no matter how much you love him, there is a reason why HH>DDP.

[Rip]

A couple of point you raised, I see after I brought his health to your attention you're pulling back on Hogan performing in ring, in favour of Hall and Nash? So again here we're not discussing the Invasion but the NWO storyline being brought forward?

In 2001 Hogans father was in hospital after he suffered a stroke, he remained there until his death in December, during this period Hogan visited him almost everyday, it was during this long period that Hogan decided he would return to the WWE if the chance arose, note however until his fathers passing in late December he would have been unwilling to commit to a busy schedule, leaving the Invasion in the hands of Hall and Nash I guess?

You ask in passing...


Who would want to be lead by a performer who may be solid in the ring, but has no experience as a main player in the WWF. What superstars would he be able to get on his side?

Thank you for that, I believe you may have just hammered the final two nails into your case, let me explain.

First, isn't that the point? It isn't a WWE re-invasion here, surely the best man to lead it ISN'T an ex-WWE employee but a WCW talent, a true figurehead for the second company and not a returning son?

Second, what superstars could he bring? Erm... Really? Let's see... Two names leap to mind if you want to go down the 'old lions' route, two men who at the time were two of the biggest names in the business, huge fans of DDP and personal friends, each of whom outdrew the Outsiders, I give you Sting and Randy Savage.

DDP never amounted to anything in the WWE because he never got the chance, watch the promo, listen to the roar. Can you imagine what could have been if WWE hadn't gone for the safe option and had built the Invasion around people like Booker, RVD, Awesome, The Dudleys, Dreamer and Storm lead by the charismatic and capable DDP?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9SSgVBPBZE

[Bennedy]

Yes, my whole point is that the NWO would be brought in a year earlier. I fail to see your issue with that. Using the NWO to effectively try to end the company that Hogan made himself would have been a great storyline. Hogan returning, tired of what Vince has turnt the company into, has his own vision. A vision that would include the New World Order running the show.

I don't like the fact that you have brought up Hogans father. Who are we to say what Hogan was thinking at that time? We need to remember that this is a fantasy debate, and presumptions about Hogans personal life prove very little.

You don't agree that an ex WWF superstar should lead the invasion. An ex WWF superstar is the PERFECT option to have in place as leader of the alliance. As I have touched on before, Hogan is a legend in this business. Hogan would know how the company is run and would surely still have friends within WWF. Hell, you even use that as a storyline as well. Take a few of the road agents and have them betray the WWF by giving out information to Hogan and the invaders.

And would DDP be able to get Savage on his side? We know the history between Savage and Vince. I highly doubt any amount of money would be able to entice Randy back at that period in time. Sting has also had many opportunities to work for Vince during his illustrious career, but the fact that he never chose to speaks volumes.

I am a firm believer that you have to make something from the short time you have in this world. The same goes for DDP, except replace world for WWF. DDP failed to take advantage of the time he was given in the company. A real superstar works with what little time he has. Only so much can be blamed on the bookers and writers.

I will wrap up by saying that the invasion angle was pretty poorly planned out. Just think of how bigger it would have been if A TRUE icon of a generation had lead the WCW/ECW troops into battle. The possibilities could have been endless.

[Cewsh]

THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED.


And now it's your turn, readers. All you have to do is reply with your vote and a short explanation as to why you voted the way you did, and your voice will be heard. Remember that your votes count for 50% of the total judging for every tie, so your one vote could be the difference between your choice moving on to the next round or being left out in the cold.

Badger and The-Man_Diva will send their votes to me via Private Message as usual, to keep them secret until the end. Voting will end on Sunday, May 12th. Now have at it!

[chatty]

I'm voting Bennedy

Very tough to choose in that one and I went back and forth with every single post. I thought Rip had him with his last one but Bennedy turned it around by using Hogan's name as justification as to why he would have worked better than DDP. Whether it was realistic or not, I don't know but I thought he did well to argue his point around that issue.

[DaSaintFan]

I'm voting RIP.

Bennedy shot himself in the foot with his argument, a) Using Hogan (who's already been WWE/WWF - sorry, RIP scored big on that one.),a nd by Rip nailing the time line (referring to the 2001 injuries to Hogan).

[maxxmisery]

I'm voting Bennedy

This is a tough choice, and both sides are argued extremely well. In the end I just think that the bigger name power behind Hogan would have been better for business and popularity of this angle. That being said, I would rather it have been DDP if this were to happen, but Hogan makes more sense.

[Kneeneighbor]

Im going with Bennedy on this one. Again a real good debate. And though I am not sur either of the choices would have been my choice I just cant get behind RIP and DDP in this one.

[WizoOzz]

Handing it to Rip here. I feel like Rip used logical arguments (not that Bennedy didn't), but I felt as if Bennedy was relying moreso on an NWO invasion angle, which had already been done to death at the time, and I feel would have fell even more flat than what we got did (as did the eventual NWO angle we got even later on).

[Matty C]

I really liked Bennedy’s choice at first but Rip really beat it up. The Hogan surgery point was very damaging. The dying Father point was even worse. He was rolling from there and I think took this one fairly convincingly.

Rip

[Cewsh]

VOTING IS NOW CLOSED.

Popular Vote: TIE! (3-3)

Judge Badger: Rip


I have to go for Rip here.

If this were a debate about who was the bigger draw then Hogan wins hands down. However the question is who the best choice for the Invasion.

He put forth a strong case for DDP here and how it would be easier for the WCW stars to side with him rather than Hogan who many WCW stars were disgruntled with at the time. Also a couple of valid points were his physical condition which Bennedy tried to counter by saying Hall and Nash could do the heavy lifting but I don't feel this holds much water, and the fact that when he DID come back the fans just wanted to cheer him which would've been a problem considering the group is supposed to be heel. That point wasn't countered at all.

Bennedy did come back stronger in his 3rd post saying it would be difficult to get Sting and Savage involved, but just too little too late for me in my eyes.

Great read though. :beer:

Judge Diva: kdestiny


Goddamn, that was a good debate. I need a cigarette.

Quick and painless, my vote is RIP. I was iffy on his selection because, hello, YES … Hogan leading the Invasion would’ve been huge. But RIP bringing in the timeline of Hogan’s injuries, ailing father, the animosity felt toward the NWO by their WCW brethren … what sold me was RIP’s complete third post. The idea of bringing in a WCW guy, through-and-through, to lead the WCW INVASION was a beautiful touch … not to mention, the sheer possibility of Sting possibly joining if it had been DDP given the ball.


RIP DEFEATS BENNEDY! (2-0-1)