The 9th Annual Wilfred's Debates - Round 1 - StoneColdChris vs. Kimura Kid

[Cewsh]

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YOUNG LION CONFERENCE

Now, two new combatants will enter the circle of debate from which only one can proceed. And here is the topic that they will do battle over:

As the Undertaker grows older, the debate grows more and more urgent. What should be done with the Undertaker's Streak? Much has been made of it, what with it being the most significant stat in the wrestling world. But you aren't here to argue whether or not it should be ended, because that debate has been had to death. No no, we're going to assume that the Undertaker has decided that he does want it to end. And now, as new members of the WWE writing staff, the decision has come down to you two. One way or another, you have to choose someone. So it's time for you to state your choice and your case and say...



WHO SHOULD END THE UNDERTAKER'S STREAK?


As a reminder, the rules are as follows. If you break a rule, there will be no excuses taken, so read them carefully.

Each debate will have a 72 hour time limit, a 350 word word limit. Videos and pictures are not only allowed, they're downright encouraged.

Also, to finally address the issue of the first one to go or the second having the advantage, a coin will be flipped by me in advance to determine who goes first or second. Completely fair odds for everyone.

If you have any questions about the question you are given, or about how to proceed, please direct them to me BEFORE you post about them, to avoid troubles.

You must wait your turn to post, meaning that you can't rattle off all three right from the get go, you have to post in turns with your opponent and, this is very fucking important, IF YOU GET THE COIN TOSS TO GO SECOND, YOUR INTRODUCTION POST CAN NOT BE A RESPONSE TO THE OTHER GUY'S INTRODUCTION POST.

You must wait until your second post to begin debating what the other person has said. This is the only way to make this fair, it is not up for debate, and I will penalize your asses. So be fucking told.

Your judges are former Wilfred's champions Badger and the_man_diva.

Now let's get down to business. The coin toss dictates that STONECOLDCHRIS will go first.

[StoneColdChris]

March 24th 1991

On a cold night in Los Angeles, California, history was made when the Undertaker defeated Jimmy Snuka at Wrestlemania VII. No one knew it then, but that victory would begin an impressive undefeated streak which currently sits at 21-0. Every year, the question has been brought up: Who will be the one to beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania. Guys like Flair, Orton, HBK, Show, HHH, Kane, and recently CM Punk have all stepped up, some more than once, and despite a great showing, they’ve fallen to the mighty Undertaker and his streak. If they can’t get the job done, who can and who should?

People have argued that the man who should end the streak who should be a midcarder on the rise and that victory would in theory make him. I disagree. These past couple of years has proven that the man who fights Taker at WrestleMania already needs to be at that top level. You can’t just throw a guy like Fandango, Cesaro, Sandow, or Rhodes against Taker, because they simply just won’t be seen as a viable threat to the streak. There’s a reason why Barrett didn’t face Taker at WM 27 after his role in burying him at Bragging Rights. Streak matches nowadays require the opponent to be, in essence, Taker’s equal in order to create the drama and intrigue of whether or not this guy will beat Taker.

As for the win making a new superstar, again I disagree. It’s an unknown risk, as we don’t know if that man’s star would fade or where that man will be in the months following WrestleMania. If anything, I think if a midcarder beat Taker, it would kind of hurt that man’s career. He would have to live up to the pressures and hype of ending the streak and have that follow him the rest of his career.

The man who ends the streak needs to be someone huge, who’s already on top, a man who will create the biggest crowd reaction ever when he faces and beats Taker. A man named John Cena.


http://www.wwe.com/f/styles/superstar_bio/public/talent/bio/2012/11/johncena_bio_20121120.png

[Kimura Kid]

Some of the best qualities the undertaker has are his ability to adapt, evolve and stay meaningful. The person to end the streak NEEDS to posses those qualities. He needs to be young enough to take advantage of the opportunity to receive such a honor. But he also needs to be somewhat established.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-n6_DedgitT0/UFnf2b5ajaI/AAAAAAAAAdM/7IkOLEL1HC4/s1600/Randy_Orton_cutout_by_dipset29.png



Orton posses all the qualities you would want from the guy to end the streak. Youth, Very Established, Amazing in the ring, Legend Killer Moniker, Bit of a dark side. and the most important thing POTENTIAL. Orton is still very young and has the potential to be the main guy in the WWE. But for some reason has never been able to reach his true potential. He has the ability to be the most over heel in the company and rival any face for many many years to come, He just needs the proper outlet. Defeating the streak would be exactly the push he needs to get there.

Orton is established but at the same time has several good years to go in the wrestling business. Orton is also "The Legend Killer" what better way to solidify himself as the legend killer than to end the undertakers undefeated streak at Mania?

Going back to the traits of the undertaker that the person beating the streak must posses. The ability to adapt, evolve and stay meaningful

Stay Meaningful: Orton is an 11 Year veteran of the WWE. He's had the ability to stay meaningful and a top draw for his entire WWE Career.

Ability to Evolve:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arc1cCNy7mc

Adapt: Thus far, Orton has done well to adapt. He is wildly popular, receiving electric pops in arenas across the country. But should he remain stagnant with his gimmick and persona, he won't live up to his full career potential.

That's why I feel Orton should be the one to end the streak. This will keep him relevant year after year after year. And Orton's career could end up being mind-bogglingly fantastic!!

[Slare]

Uh...pssst...KK...350 word limit.

[Matthew]

As a reminder, the rules are as follows. If you break a rule, there will be no excuses taken, so read them carefully.lol

[Kimura Kid]

Butchered my post to get it down to 350.

I apologize fellas

[StoneColdChris]

While I do like Randy Orton and I do like his match with Taker at Wrestlemania 21, the Randy Orton of today is a terrible choice to end the streak. Remember that unknown risk I mentioned earlier, it applies heavily to Randy. Just last year Orton was lined up for a World Title fued with Sheamus and look what happened; He got suspended for the third time(2 wellness, 1 behavioral) in his career. One more wellness strike and he’s done with the company. Can you really trust Randy to end the streak? What happens if he gets suspended again right after he beats Taker? You can’t waste that huge win on an unreliable guy like Orton.

You said Orton has potential, but then you mention that he’s an 11-year veteran in the company. Randy has had plenty of chances, multiple world title reigns, and lengthy feuds with Cena, HHH, HBK, and Taker. If he hasn’t reached that potential at this point, then he never will. Beating Taker at Wrestlemania won’t be that push that makes Orton the man. Just like HHH said, “The title doesn’t make the man, the man makes the title.” That mentality applies here. You can’t use the streak as a way to make someone, its up to the man to make himself. And again Orton’s been given a lot, and still has nothing to show for it.

Cena has earned the right to beat the Undertaker. He’s a proven draw, the top guy, and a man that they can trust to end the streak. John Cena vs The Undertaker is the biggest streak match there is at the moment. Cena beating Taker is a much bigger than Orton doing it. You said the man that ends the streak needs to be able stay meaningful, well look no further than Cena. Cena will be relevant for years to come moreso than Orton. Cena ending it solidifies his spot as the man, which is what the win should be about, not making someone relevant for a short period of time like it would in Orton.

[Kimura Kid]

John Cena has nothing to gain by beating undertakers streak. He's already reached the pinnacle of his career. He's been the "main guy" for over a decade. Ending the streak shouldn't be the icing on the cake for someone's career. Which is exactly what it would be for Cena's already storybook career. What your proposing would be just another accolade to Super Cena's already pampered career. Ending the streak is the biggest accolade in the wrestling business and it should be utilized to elevate someone's career to the highest level.

Cena's stagnant gimmick and underdog angle's are fucking tiresome. People are sick and tired of seeing Super Cena do the "unthinkable", and ending the streak would be the biggest implication yet. People would riot. It would only hinder Cena's career if he ended the streak. He is currently the most hated face to ever wrestle inside a wrestling ring and ending the streak wouldn't benefit anyone. Not him, Not the fans and not the business. It's a lose lose situation for everyone involved. And a terrible idea.

Ending the streak is such a huge deal it could quite possibly change the landscape of the WWE forever. And it should be utilized just to that effect. I think having a mega heel is what the WWE has been lacking in the past. And utilizing the streak is a fantastic way to get some permanent heat on Orton. Randy Orton is a fantastic heel & one of the single most talented in ring performers to ever lace up a pair of boots. A dirty win over Undertaker would solidify Orton as the biggest heel in the past decade. And elevate him to the top of the business.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5voiz_fY8C4
The streak is precious why would you throw it away on another Cena underdog victory that he doesn't deserve.....Woo Hoo, Cena does it again. :barf:

[StoneColdChris]

Ending the streak is the biggest accolade in the wrestling business and it should be utilized to elevate someone's career to the highest level.

If anything, ending the streak should be used to cement someone’s legacy. The person who beats Taker already needs to be on that level, you can’t just give a guy the win and expect it to elevate him.

It’s a lose lose situation if Cena wins? How about if Orton wins? Orton winning would be a bigger “waste” than Cena. Like I said, Orton has proven to be unreliable risk. He can’t be trusted with that win. If Orton wins, how long before he gets another suspension(which would lead to his firing), gets injured again, or has another backstage incident.

You call the streak precious but then you say Orton should beat him via shenanigans? You’d want the streak to end like that? The streak should end in a definitive way, clean, no shady business to it. The streak shouldn’t just be used as a vehicle to get Orton over as the top heel. And again, wins and losses don’t necessarily elevate the superstar. It’s up to the superstar himself to get on that level.

John Cena is the perfect choice to end the streak. Cena is the face of the company, the man who’s runs the media, does the Make-a-Wish stuff, on the box of cereals, etc.. He’s proven he can step up to the plate and is worthy of ending the streak. You’re right, Cena is not the most popular guy with the fans, but how does he handle it? He doesn’t let it bother him, he handles it with class, and goes out there and works with what he’s got. He can handle the pressure and responsibility of ending the streak. You mention there’d be a riot if Cena wins, however I disagree. How many times have we heard that phrase, “If Cena wins, we riot” It never happens. One thing that will happen if Cena does win, it would indeed guarantee a reaction, positive or negative. Bigger than anything Orton would ever generate. The streak is big moment for sure, Cena ending it makes the moment astronomically bigger. You couldn’t ask for a greater Wrestlemania moment.

[Kimura Kid]

The person who beats Taker already needs to be on that level, you can’t just give a guy the win and expect it to elevate him..

Uhh Yes....Yes you can. Instruments have been used to elevate superstars for as long as pro wrestling has been around, In most cases the championships of a company, Vignettes, face or heel turns, unexpected comebacks. I could on on and on. But to discredit the use of ending the streak as a push to further someone's career is ludicrous. It's the only way to reap the fruits of the labor put into it. Cementing someone's career using the streak seems disrespectful to the Undertaker. Cena's career doesn't need cementing anyway. WTF is all that talk about? It's John fucking Cena we are talking about. The guy is going to be the longest reigning face in the history of the WWE. He's won more WWE Championships than anyone before him. But let's have him end Undertaker's streak just to make sure everyone knows he's "the guy"!?!?!?


You call the streak precious but then you say Orton should beat him via shenanigans? You’d want the streak to end like that? The streak should end in a definitive way, clean, no shady business to it.

Yeah I would want Orton (the proposed ubber villian) to beat Undertaker at Wrestlemania via shenanigans, We want him to become the biggest heel in the company. You want to have Undertaker just lie down for Super Cena to get a clean win?? You want undertaker to cheapen everthing he's done for the past 22 years by letting super fucking cena get the clean win? CHEAP!! It will diminish the streak's importance immediately. Just another accolade that was given to Cena that we will all forget about by next year.

They were seriously considering having Orton end the streak at WM 21, so much so that according to all reports leading up to WM21, he was even penciled in to get a clean win over him. If news reports are true, they changed the outcome the night of WM21, But Taker himself was going to lay down for Orton at Mania.

Randy Orton's incentive this time would be this: last time they faced off, he was the "Legend Killer" but now, he's become a legend himself. He has won the Royal Rumble, become a nine-time World Champion, main evented WrestleMania. However, the last time they faced off, he was young and inexperienced. Now, he is in the prime of his career and he wants just one more shot.

[Cewsh]

THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED.


And now it's your turn, readers. All you have to do is reply with your vote and a short explanation as to why you voted the way you did, and your voice will be heard. Remember that your votes count for 50% of the total judging for every tie, so your one vote could be the difference between your choice moving on to the next round or being left out in the cold.

Badger and The-Man_Diva will send their votes to me via Private Message as usual, to keep them secret until the end. Voting will end on Sunday, May 12th. Now have at it!

[WizoOzz]

You said Orton has potential, but then you mention that he’s an 11-year veteran in the company. Randy has had plenty of chances, multiple world title reigns, and lengthy feuds with Cena, HHH, HBK, and Taker.

Sorry, Kid. My vote goes for StoneColdChris here. Plus, there was one post where you devalued your own argument by saying Cena would have nothing to gain, but then admitted how big a deal ending the streak is. Just contradictory.

I dislike both choices - Cena has been stale far too long for anything other than turning him heel to make a difference, and Orton, IMO, is a vortex. But the arguments and points lie with SCC here.

Very intriguing debate, though. And as I stated in the discussion thread, you guys did excellent jobs.

[Kneeneighbor]

My vote is for SCC. His points about Orton being a major liability and all the strikes against him tip the scales in Cena's favor.

[Matty C]

SCC. Kimura let his hate for Cena kind of blind his argument. The final post was mostly just “you can’t have Cena win, I don’t like him” and while I also do not like John Cena, that’s not a strong argument.

SCC went after Orton’s suspension record and the fact that he’s consistently hit the glass ceiling despite an 11 year career. These are concrete reasons that Orton may not be the best choice and I didn’t feel they were countered effectively.

I would have liked SCC to mention how great a Cena heel turn after ending the streak would be but alas, it was never brought up. Still, mentioning his professionalism and obvious ability to draw were strong points for further investment in him.

SCC. I love your enthusiasm though Kimura. Keep trucking brother.

[Kimura Kid]

I love your enthusiasm though Kimura. Keep trucking brother.

:yes:

[Cewsh]

For the record, Kimura, please keep all discussion to the discussion thread and don't respond directly to votes. And please be aware that these votes here are only worth 50% of the total vote and you have not lost anything.

[maxxmisery]

I'm voting Kimura Kid here

At this point, it may seem like a wasted vote, but I really understand where he is coming from. Ending the streak would immediately put Orton back up to near Cena level, and would give the company another huge star that can either feud with Cena in epic battles (I know it's been done to death with these two, but still would draw) or spell Cena when he needs a break. Orton getting that one last chance to become a megastar would be a great storyline. It's risky with his past, but it would be huge for him. Excellent argument from SCC however on Cena. I honestly wouldn't mind either of them doing it, but prefer Orton at this point.

[chatty]

I'm voting for Stonecold Chris - Cena was the easy choice and has a lot of credibility to it despite the fact that a lot would hate it. SCC nailed all the reasons why well enough and debunked KK who imo made a massive error in choice basically because everything he could argue against Cena also falls against him with Orton (who is kind of in the same boat but a level below Cena) and SCC pretty much hit the nail on the head with his arguments against Orton.

[kangus]

Kimura Kid, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[virms]

And I reckon someone is going to report that post for trolling kangus.

[Cewsh]

Off topic stuff goes in the discussion thread.

[DaSaintFan]

I'm voting for SCC...

He made all the right arguments for a) why Cena would be his top pick and b) pointed out all the wrong reasons why Orton wouldn't be a good choice.

[Mr_Nobody]

I'm voting for SCC, which shocks me, because I actually think Orton is a better choice out of the two. I think both did a good job of explaining why their choice was the right one, but Kimura did start to ramble in the end, which really hurt his argument, and SCC gave the perfect response against Orton as the choice.

[Cewsh]

VOTING IS NOW CLOSED.

Popular Vote: StoneColdChris (5-1)

Judge Badger: StoneColdChris


A valiant effort by Kimura Kid on his first time out, however it wasn't to be in my eyes as I'm giving my vote to StoneColdChris.

He pointed out a couple of times that Orton is a liability for ending the streak being on his third wellness violation and this wasn't countered at all by Kid. Also what stuck out to me was his examples of Orton's feuds with top-level stars over the years but yet never reaching that top level, Kid used the word potential a lot but Chris pointed out it was better to have someone who is already proven to end the streak was what won it for me.

Judge Diva: StoneColdChris


Ugh, I really wish both had picked two wrestlers who I have strong opinions about NOT breaking the streak, LOL. Entertaining debate, I thought SCC really put himself in a corner by picking Cena ... but I think he did a great job not just defending his stance but also proving WHY Orton would be WORSE than Cena to break the Streak.

My Vote: SCC


CHRIS DEFEATS KIMURA! (3-0)

[Kimura Kid]

Congrats CSS!! I had a good time debating with ya bud!