The WCW/ECW Invasion - Was it a failure or a success?

[JP]

Quite a few differing opinions on this so I thought a thread of its own would be cool.

For me, the Invasion is very unfairly looked upon. It was the main angle in what I believe is the best year both in and out of the ring that the WWE has ever produced.

New stars were brought in from the purchased companies, an energy surrounded every show, we truly never really knew what was going to happen next.

I think the people that look back and call it a failure do so not because of what they saw but of what they believe should have happened. Now, they could be right, maybe it could have been. But that in itself doesn't take away from the fact that in terms of ratings, buy rates, creating new stars and maintaining a buzz around the industry it worked a charm.

[Andy]

If someone could bring the posts over from the other thread again...in my opinion it wasn't far off being a complete disaster. The only thing saving it was the quality of the matches in that period.

[Vice]

It was pretty great for what it was, but it could have been so, so much more.

[chatty]

As I said int he other thread, I quite enjoyed a lot of the product at that time but I would still maintain that the Invasion angle was a failure. What should have been an influx of dream matches basically turned into home grown stars or WWE made guys facing a bunch of jobbers. The majority of the angle consisted of WWE guys facing WWE guys, at least in the fact that most of the guys involved had signed and been on WWE TV for a while before the angle started.

The angle helped put Angle and Jericho over but I feel that was on the cards without it as they had been getting pushed up the roster previous to this. Big names were amiss and that really hurt the angle, I'm not sure how possible it would have been to get Flair, Godberg, Hogan, Nash, Hall and Steiner for the angle but they came in within a year after (except Goldberg who came just after I believe) and I believe even just getting one or two of them could have made it so much better - Flair as the leading body would have been perfect, hell Bishoff would have been perfect for the role rather than Shane and Steph.

It massively hurt the guys coming across as well, I mean how many hung around for a good period - Booker, Helms, RVD and Storm and only two ever played an major part in the company (years after). There was some good angles and matches to be fair to them, they could have just done most of them without the angle as the whole thing was basically a WWE v WWE min war rather than WWE v WCW/ECW.

[Tempest]

Quite a few differing opinions on this so I thought a thread of its own would be cool.

For me, the Invasion is very unfairly looked upon. It was the main angle in what I believe is the best year both in and out of the ring that the WWE has ever produced.

New stars were brought in from the purchased companies, an energy surrounded every show, we truly never really knew what was going to happen next.

I think the people that look back and call it a failure do so not because of what they saw but of what they believe should have happened. Now, they could be right, maybe it could have been. But that in itself doesn't take away from the fact that in terms of ratings, buy rates, creating new stars and maintaining a buzz around the industry it worked a charm.


Best year up until it kicked in...

It didn't fail because of a lack of stars, it failed because they made them look like bumholes then took it over with a family storyline.

It did not create new stars because they were bummed in the gay way until they'd been there long enough to be called WWE stars

[JP]

Best year up until it kicked in...

It didn't fail because of a lack of stars, it failed because they made them look like bumholes then took it over with a family storyline.

It did not create new stars because they were bummed in the gay way until they'd been there long enough to be called WWE stars

That's certainly not true with Booker T or RVD.

While Booker T may have lost to The Rock he was presented as upper mid card/main event talent throughout 2001 and never went below that level for his entire time in the company.

RVD got the of push most talent can only dream of. He absolutely forced their hand with the reactions he was getting from the crowd, but he was boosted like nobody else through that period, except for possibly Jericho.

[VHS]

I just remember being more amped than I'd ever been about wrestling, but after it was all over I felt like I'd watched The Phantom Menace.

[Tempest]

That's certainly not true with Booker T or RVD.

While Booker T may have lost to The Rock he was presented as upper mid card/main event talent throughout 2001 and never went below that level for his entire time in the company.

RVD got the of push most talent can only dream of. He absolutely forced their hand with the reactions he was getting from the crowd, but he was boosted like nobody else through that period, except for possibly Jericho.


Booker T was a nobber for a good while. It was only after he'd been beaten by Austin that they really paid attention to him. RVD was the exception I agree, but he was botched too fast

...thankfully

[Badger]

Best year up until it kicked in...

It didn't fail because of a lack of stars, it failed because they made them look like bumholes then took it over with a family storyline.

It did not create new stars because they were bummed in the gay way until they'd been there long enough to be called WWE stars

And the following year, Billy and Chuck were bummed in the gay way but then Bischoff saved the day.

Speaking of Bischoff, he was another piece missing from the Invasion storyline.

[JP]

Booker T was a nobber for a good while. It was only after he'd been beaten by Austin that they really paid attention to him. RVD was the exception I agree, but he was botched too fast

...thankfully


That possibly could have been Booker himself struggling at first. Him vs. Bagwell.

Now that was a failure.

[Tempest]

That possibly could have been Booker himself struggling at first. Him vs. Bagwell.

Now that was a failure.



Nah, he looked second rate all along

[Jimmy Zero]

I thought the Invasion angle was pretty bad, myself. The only really interesting part of it was when the ECW faction entered the fray, but, besides that, it wasn't very well done. None of the main eventers from WCW were involved. Booker was probably the biggest level talent on the WCW side of things. The dream matches that people wanted to see from such an angle, therefore, didn't happen, and it ended up devolving into a McMahon family feud with the big name WWE talent picking sides. It could have been amazing, had they actually gotten the people from WCW that the majority of WWE fans would have wanted to see. I mean, wasn't Buff Bagwell in the very first Invasion match? That says it all, right there.

[Tempest]

I didn't care about the dream matches as I knew they were all greedy twats. I will never accept Austins turn

[Ringo]

My take is pretty much the same as the last 4,538 times we've discussed this over the last 10 years (YEAH!) - 8/10, should've really been a 10/10.

They got a handful of things right, a lot of stuff wrong and continued to successfully book the wrestlers they really wanted to get over... until 2002.

I haven't seen that Survivor Series 10-man tag ultimate climax in a long time but I still remember it fondly. Lots of heat.

Although, if you compare it to other promotion feuds/invasions... it doesn't hold up particularly well.

[JP]

Again Jimmy, that seems to be more a resignation of what didn't happen rather than a critique of what did.

Over the year this is the angle that gave us the Shane bombshell on the last Nitro, Mike Awesome's surprise run in backstage at MSG, the deafening pop with DDP's unmasking (we shall never discuss what happened next), Booker T surprising Austing at the KotR, the fantastic Inaugural Brawl and Austin turn, Stone Cold Appreciation Night, Chris Jericho as WCW Champion, the Survivor Series ppt which is one of their finest to this day.

And some of the individual performances and feuds in the mix were outstanding. Regal as the commissioner before turning and costing Angle the belt, RVD's phenomenal rise, the elevation of Jericho into a legitimate main event talent and superb series of matches against The Rock. And of course, the first work as reluctant partners and the feud of Austin and Angle. For me neither man has ever been better. Austin has always been able to tred the line between serious and funny well and this was before Angle decided that funny wasn't for him anymore, they created some absolute gold. The Sherriff hats, the hugs, the milk truck. And for my money the best series of matches either man has ever had, including that brilliant moment where Angle, if only for a short time, regainst the WWF belt for the company.

It is, for me, the best period they have ever had.

[McBain]

The Angle/Austin stuff was absolute gold.

As was Jericho/Rock.

I tend to separate those in my head from the invasion though.

[Jimmy Zero]

JP, I'm not saying the Invasion angle didn't have its positives, but as someone who never followed WCW closely it really fell kind of flat. It felt incomplete without the guys from WCW I actually would have recognized, and those were Flair, Hogan, Nash, Hall, Goldberg, and Sting. Ignoring what I perceived as a lack of star power, the Invasion felt like yet another way to get the McMahons on tv. Instead of highlighting the WCW/ECW guys (with the main exceptions of RVD and Booker), it was reduced to McMahon kids vs Vince.

For all the positives of the Invasion, it still feels like a huge missed opportunity.

[Cewsh]

I'm going to take a controversial stance here and say that the Invasion was guaranteed to be a disaster no matter what they did. They could not have gotten their hands on the main eventers that people wanted to see, and even if they did, most of those guys were such enormous drug and attitude risks and had declined so much in terms of talent and fan appreciation by that point that every single one of them except for Flair, Hogan and Booker T eventually flamed out anyway. If we accept that WWE fans were likely to know WCW guys, that's fine. But realistically, by 2001 WCW was a complete joke of a promotion full of shit talent that nobody wanted to see, thanks to booking as much as anything, but jokes nonetheless. WCW hadn't been a thing people actually liked, or even widely cared about, for over 3 years by that point. So while it's fun to fantasy book the Invasion however we want, the entire concept was seriously devoid of star power and credibility from the get go. It's easy for us to say that it was a clash between these two great companies that had this long and proud rivalry, but that isn't even true. WCW had 5 great years and 5 miserable one in the 90s, and ECW, despite what smarks will tell you, had an INCREDIBLY limited reach in terms of the mainstream audience.

So we're talking about an Invasion that they basically had to build from scratch, and the two biggest stars they had to build on were DDP, who by his own admission struggled hugely to adapt to the WWE style in the ring, and Booker T, who only became a main eventer after everyone stopped watching WCW. How exactly was WWE supposed to get over an entire promotion worth of people from scratch without burying all of the talent they had that was already drawing? It isn't realistic, and it wasn't going to happen. Having Austin lead the Alliance was a mistake, because it took away from the people who were ACTUALLY leading it, and made it all about Steve. And it's obvious that fans want to cheer Austin as he kicks everyone's ass, so it was an opportunity to revitalize him as a face. But I think they made that choice because they had to rush the storyline because of Triple H's injury, and Austin was already the top heel. If Triple H had been around, he would have made much more sense as the defector from WWE to WCW, so he join join up with Shane and Stephanie against Vince. That's logical and works, but they were in a bad spot there without him.

Even so, they really did make the best of it, and those 6 months were the most exciting that I've ever seen in WWE. They captured an air of exciting unpredictability like nothing I've ever seen in wrestling, and the stakes did feel enormous, even if the outcome was inevitable. But while the Invasion wasn't the dream thing it possibly could have been, my point here is that it was never, ever, ever going to be. That dream existed in the hearts of smarks everywhere, and did not sync up to objective reality. And nothing WWE could have done would have changed that.

[Atty]

It was pretty great for what it was, but it could have been so, so much more.

This. It was a bit of a mess without the upper talent "invading" at the same time. I know contracts were an issue, but it's always struck me the wrong way to have Hogan, Nash and Hall come in about 2-3 months after the invasion ended. Austin jumping ship never really felt right and was just a reach to fill a hole at the top of the stable. They tried to stir up rumors, before the invasion, that Benoit or Jericho would take the title to WCW if they won at KOTR and, honestly, that would have made more sense than Austin.

Plus, having Austin switch sides and Rock coming back to save the WWF, only a few months after WM 17, and having them basically ignore each other always seemed odd. As did forcing DDP, a longtime face, to work heel.



In the wake of Vince buying WCW, people wanted Goldberg/Austin, Rock/Hogan, Sting/Taker and other dream matches. Not having that in the big invasion angle pretty much guaranteed it's failure.


[EDIT] This is a little too close to Cewsh's post for my comfort. INSERT HOMOPHOBIC SLUR HERE. There. Better.

[Vice]

Didn't Flair come back to WWE the night after the Invasion angle ended, or have I lost my mind?

If he did, that was horrendously stupid.

[Cewsh]

He did, yep.

But in fairness, when the angle started in April, he didn't want anything to do with WCW or even wrestling. He was burnt out for months and was just happy to see WCW die. So it's probably not a coincidence that he debuted only after it was done. He probably wanted nothing to do with it.

[G-Fresh]

It could have been so much better than it was, but Chris Jericho ended up being the first undisputed champion in over 50 years so it was cool.

[Atty]

Didn't Flair come back to WWE the night after the Invasion angle ended, or have I lost my mind?

If he did, that was horrendously stupid.

Yep. And he ranted about betting on a winner at the race track or something. It was awful. Like his match with Vince.

[The Law]

WCW was a joke, but their talent wasn't. Within two years of the end of the company, WWE had brought in: Flair, Hogan, Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Scott Steiner, Bischoff. In addition to Booker and DDP, who came in with the initial group, that's everyone you would want from WCW other than Sting, Savage, and Luger.

Goldberg was perfectly fine. Hogan was enormously over. Nash was Nash. Flair was broken down, but that didn't stop him from having good matches when called upon and he was still lighting up the mic. Steiner's matches with Triple H were abysmal, but that's a product of him not being in condition to go 20 minutes at that point. Keep him out of long singles matches and he's fine. Hall obviously had his problems and probably would have flamed out regardless.

So basically, my view is that if they had either put up the money to buy them all out of their contracts or waited until their contracts expired and signed them it would have been huge. I don't think you can simultaneously claim that you enjoyed the angle they ended up with using subpar talent and then say it would have been a disaster or failure with the guys we all wanted to see.

If they bring in the top guys and allowed them to look strong, this would have been huge. People had been dreaming about WWF vs. WCW for years. You don't think a card with Austin vs. Goldberg, Hogan vs. Rock, Bischoff vs. Vince, Undertaker vs. Flair, Steiners vs. Dudley Boyz, DDP vs. Jericho, and Booker T vs. Kurt Angle would have drawn and been awesome to watch?

[Atty]

A combination of the two, The Law. Don't wait for all the contracts to expire, but wait for enough of them to (if that was the delay on Flair, Hogan, Hall and Nash) so they can use those names as leverage to lure the others back. It could have been the biggest thing any of them had ever been a part of if done right and most won't turn away from that.

[Vice]

He did, yep.

But in fairness, when the angle started in April, he didn't want anything to do with WCW or even wrestling. He was burnt out for months and was just happy to see WCW die. So it's probably not a coincidence that he debuted only after it was done. He probably wanted nothing to do with it.

Maybe he should have come out during the WCW vs. WWF match and swerved everybody by helping WWF get the victory. Then he can cut a promo about how shit WCW was and he's not only glad it's dead, but that he helped kill it.

I think that would have made more sense than like.. Angle.

[Badger]

As did forcing DDP, a longtime face, to work heel.

To be fair, the stalker build-up and reveal was pretty cool. Then they had him job to fuckin Sara.

[Zacharie]

I think it was successful until they did that damn "Winner Take All" match. The storyline had good intentions; great moments, great talent, good feuds.

I think it's the aftermath or result of the final invasion match that sucked.

Why not have WCW squeak by with the victory and have them go on to take over Thursday Smackdown? If they didn't want to utilize the ECW or WCW initials then give them a new name. After all, they were basically just "The Alliance" by the end of it.

Or okay--WWF wins--cool, whatever. Why not have the WCW guys continue to harass the WWF and eventually take over Thursday Smackdown? Make it an ongoing struggle over on SD where the WWF guys are slowly run off the show.

Instead they let the idea of two separate promotions die out, and then we got a watered down concept in the Raw vs. Smackdown brand split.

Just look at them talents they had...

WWF: The Rock, Chris Jericho, The Undertaker, Kane, The Big Show, HHH, Hardyz
Alliance: Stone Cold, Kurt Angle, Booker T, Rob Van Dam, Shane McMahon, DDP, Dudleys

[Atty]

Maybe he should have come out during the WCW vs. WWF match and swerved everybody by helping WWF get the victory. Then he can cut a promo about how shit WCW was and he's not only glad it's dead, but that he helped kill it.

I think that would have made more sense than like.. Angle.

That would have been infinitely better than Angle. But Vince likes wasting big returns on RAW. (See: Batista, Dave; WrestleMania 25)

[Cewsh]

WCW was a joke, but their talent wasn't. Within two years of the end of the company, WWE had brought in: Flair, Hogan, Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Scott Steiner, Bischoff. In addition to Booker and DDP, who came in with the initial group, that's everyone you would want from WCW other than Sting, Savage, and Luger.

Goldberg was perfectly fine. Hogan was enormously over. Nash was Nash. Flair was broken down, but that didn't stop him from having good matches when called upon and he was still lighting up the mic. Steiner's matches with Triple H were abysmal, but that's a product of him not being in condition to go 20 minutes at that point. Keep him out of long singles matches and he's fine. Hall obviously had his problems and probably would have flamed out regardless.

So basically, my view is that if they had either put up the money to buy them all out of their contracts or waited until their contracts expired and signed them it would have been huge. I don't think you can simultaneously claim that you enjoyed the angle they ended up with using subpar talent and then say it would have been a disaster or failure with the guys we all wanted to see.

If they bring in the top guys and allowed them to look strong, this would have been huge. People had been dreaming about WWF vs. WCW for years. You don't think a card with Austin vs. Goldberg, Hogan vs. Rock, Bischoff vs. Vince, Undertaker vs. Flair, Steiners vs. Dudley Boyz, DDP vs. Jericho, and Booker T vs. Kurt Angle would have drawn and been awesome to watch?

But that's the thing, their talent WAS shit in 2001. When Steiner and Nash came back to work, they were grossly out of shape and didn't give a shit. When Hall came back to work he was barely holding off a drug problem, and wasn't ready to be a full time employee by his own admission and Luger was in full on heroin shock and was on the verge of death. Goldberg didn't give two fucks about the wrestling business anymore, Flair was out of shape and hugely anti-WCW, DDP had major issues in the ring, Sting wouldn't come, WWE wouldn't take Savage, and Booker T wasn't a star anywhere near the level of these other guys. Again, their POTENTIAL value is not the same as the value they actually offered in 2001. Of the whole group, only Eric Bischoff and Booker T had anything to really add to the product at that point, and Flair eventually did after Triple H talked off of the depression cliff.

If they could have gotten Hogan, then they should have gotten Hogan. Beyond that, nobody else was in any position to change anything.

[Atty]

Bischoff didn't come in until well after the invasion.

[The Law]

Goldberg might not have been motivated, but his run in WWE was perfectly fine other than the fact that I'm not wild about the way they used him. He got big pops and did his Goldberg stuff. Nash was Nash, the same mediocre worker with great mic skills and tons of charisma that he's always been. Steiner's run wasn't great, although he definitely improved as he got into better ring shape. Mostly, these are guys who weren't in condition to go 20 minutes, but none of them should be doing that anyway. Those names would have added credibility to the invasion and made it seem like a real threat to the WWF. If you really need more workhorses you can have Jericho and Big Show jump ship to WCW.

[lotjx]

It could have worked if the swerve was ECW took out WCW. If they had Heyman out fox Shane and never and I mean never brought Stephanie into it, it could have been fine. Then, you had Austin cement his heel turn by saying ECW was the only company that took him in arms wide open. Maybe even have Jericho turn after not getting respect when Rock came back. Rock/Jericho and Austin/Kurt was amazing stuff and only one of those feuds had anything to do with Invasion. If they made every main event match an ECW match to raise the stakes. Force DDP and Booker to go face and join WWE, maybe it could work, maybe.

Yet, I agree with Cewsh and some of the other posters, WCW really brought nothing to the table. Booker, DDP Lance and the girls were their only draws. Its not like WWE was getting Flair and the Horsemen with Sting. They were getting the cast offs to a company that was in the death throws for about a year. The irony to the entire thing was the WCW belt was their biggest asset. If that wasn't considering something desirable by the fans and the wrestlers than WCW had no creditability. ECW had more creditability in RVD than WCW had combined. He was massively over and got some of the big pops in a company that at this point had Taker, Austin, Rock, Jericho and Kurt. Again, if they could have dumped the toxic that was WCW and the McMahon family and made it ECW vs. the World, it could have been better. Not great, but better.

The thing is with Invasion, I do put a good chunk of it on WWE. They put themselves in this situation. They could have done little things all year with WCW and waiting to get guys out of contracts and still ran what they did all summer with heel Austin. Then at Summer Slam have Rock gets his revenge on Austin for Mania which he never really got. They could have done a great slow burn all fall and in the winter pulled out all the punches with a returning HHH, NWO and a better WCW brand. Instead they do what they always do turn a fighting chance for life into a quick death. They blew their load with no real vision and they have no one to blame, but themselves.

[Cewsh]

As much as I'm saying that WCW had no worth, I think that ECW had about a tenth as much value at that point. WWE basically could have just put RVD on Team WCW and that would have been fine.

[G-Fresh]

I'd have rather watched ECW's undercard than WCW's main eventers.

[The Law]

ECW was pretty terrible by the end. I'm sort of an ECW agnostic, I like some things about it and dislike others, but by the end it was a carcass picked to bits by WCW and the WWF. Basically, I think the tragedy of ECW is that by the time it actually got wide exposure from the TNN cable deal all of their real talent had been signed by the big two.

Who did they have? Tommy Dreamer, Justin Credible, Sandman, Rhino, Tajiri, Mikey Whipwreck, Super Crazy, Danny Doring, Roadkill, Little Guido, Masato Tanaka, Swinger, Simon Diamond, RVD. Basically a few solid talents and a lot of guys whose glaring flaws were hidden by Paul Heyman's booking.

On the other hand, it's worth noting that Van Dam and Dreamer were the only guys that were actually brought in to be part of the invasion. Everyone else was already there. So they wisely declined to sign guys who would not have accomplished anything.

[Simmo Fortyone]

At the time is was happening, the Invasion angle was brilliant. It provided an ongoing storyline to make easy feuds out of, and almost every show and PPV had purpose to it. WWF winning was the only conclusion that was ever going to happen so there's no point getting hung up on that.

But everyone shits all over it in hindsight because of what the storyline could have been if the universe aligned correctly. They didn't use the big WCW names because they didn't have the big WCW names. I think they did a great job given what they had to work with.

[Andy]

Can someone refresh my memory. How/when did Austin end up as a face again? My memory from Survivor Series to the Rumble is really hazy but I seem to remember he was face again by the rumble.

Thinking back, I really disliked Austin's character during that period. The build up to Mania and the heel turn were awesome, then his run as a heel was just a bit of a mess. I know he wasn't helped by Trips being injured then having the Invasion happen too quick but there was all the nonsense with the guitar etc. Didn't enjoy it at all.

[McBain]

At the time is was happening, the Invasion angle was brilliant. It provided an ongoing storyline to make easy feuds out of, and almost every show and PPV had purpose to it. WWF winning was the only conclusion that was ever going to happen so there's no point getting hung up on that.

But everyone shits all over it in hindsight because of what the storyline could have been if the universe aligned correctly. They didn't use the big WCW names because they didn't have the big WCW names. I think they did a great job given what they had to work with.

Gotta agree with this. In an ideal world it would have been one of the greatest angles of all time. As it happens it was pretty damn fun.

[Atty]

Can someone refresh my memory. How/when did Austin end up as a face again? My memory from Survivor Series to the Rumble is really hazy but I seem to remember he was face again by the rumble.

He was a face again the RAW after the Invasion ended. He came out that next night, was cheered and was a face. There was no real turn, he was just a face again.

[Andy]

That'll be why I don't remember it too well then.

[Fanny Batter]

I think for too much of it they lost scope on what made a proper babyface and a proper heel to the point where we're still dealing with mixed reactions today. They'd create a bonafide character and then shit on it, mainly in the aftermath. Jericho, Rock, RVD and Angle were all great in late Summer as they felt genuine, before they went back to the status quo booking straight after. Look at the night after Raw. Good episode by the way, but in that episode they turned RVD into your basic midcard face with no edge, Angle became an arse sniffer again despite being a badass throughout the Summer, Jericho became a basic heel cheat rather than an individual with a rivalry for Rocky, authority figures were still around and feuding. So I don't think it was necessarily the invasion that was a huge failure, it was the inability to capitalise on the characters that got over during the whole thing.

[chatty]

Yeah the next night was weird. The had Angle just become the cowardly heel that he was before the whole invasion angle even though he saved WWE the match.

They had Austin just go back to face with barely any other reason other than he disliked Angle.

They had Jericho go full heel which was fine and continue to feud with the Rock.

They just sort of went back to exactly as it was before the angle with a few extra mid-carders/jobbers.

I'm not sure if they could have got them then but just Bishoff and Hogan would have made the angle so much better with a lot more legitimacy.

They could have built it to:

Austin, Rock, Angle, Taker, Kane v Hogan, Booker, Jericho, RVD, DDP if booked right and that would have been awesome - Jericho could have been the cowardly heel traitor as he was anyway. just built a little faster, DDP would have been booked better after his initial feud with Taker, Angle could still have been face and pushed hard - Austin could have just been his usual self, a bad ass who likes to work alone but comes to when needed. The WWE side is still a bit stronger but that was always gonna be the case anyway.

[Tempest]

I think for too much of it they lost scope on what made a proper babyface and a proper heel to the point where we're still dealing with mixed reactions today. They'd create a bonafide character and then shit on it, mainly in the aftermath. Jericho, Rock, RVD and Angle were all great in late Summer as they felt genuine, before they went back to the status quo booking straight after. Look at the night after Raw. Good episode by the way, but in that episode they turned RVD into your basic midcard face with no edge, Angle became an arse sniffer again despite being a badass throughout the Summer, Jericho became a basic heel cheat rather than an individual with a rivalry for Rocky, authority figures were still around and feuding. So I don't think it was necessarily the invasion that was a huge failure, it was the inability to capitalise on the characters that got over during the whole thing.


Never really thought about it like that before, but that really is spot on :yes:

[Slare]

It was an overwhelming failure as an out and out angle, but I don't think that was really at the fault of the WWE and for me as a fan it was an enjoyable watch nonetheless. I was never bored at any point of it and I was enjoying some of the new faces involved and the huge running fued that was behind every match.

However, the WWE booked themselves more or less into a corner. For years they presented WCW as the enemy, as evil and as something inferior to the WWE. So when you bring them in, the vast majority of WWE fans either didn't care about them, didn't want to see them or wanted to see them beat.

I think the WWE did try and build the WCW brand up to be a viable contender, but saw how much the crowd shit on the real WCW only moments that they were presented with - and made a decision to go with a tried and tested McMahon family feud with a few variables thrown in. Bearing in mind that a lot of the crowd didn't watch WCW in the first place, it was something familiar and less threatening as a viewer to have Steph and Shane lead up this band of mainly new guys.

Obviously if they had included a lot of the BIG WCW names then it might have been a different story, but really, given what they had to deal with and the options open to them logistically, I think they did with it what they could.

Not capitalizing on it was a different story altogether, because it just seemed like a total reset the night after Survivor Series, but I think we saw what they had more or less intended to do in the first place a few months later by having the Draft.

The Draft Split is the legacy of the invasion, so I guess it's whether you see that as a good thing or not that will decide whether the invasion was a failure in the long run.

[lotjx]

As much as I'm saying that WCW had no worth, I think that ECW had about a tenth as much value at that point. WWE basically could have just put RVD on Team WCW and that would have been fine.

ECW had the Dudleyz, Rhyno and most of the WWE mid card. So, they had value unless you are saying WWE mid card has no value.

[chatty]

Could they not have held off on the Invasion angle though. They could have worked it pretty well back then. I mean the internet wasn't as full steam ahead as it is now so it was easier to hide things or build things up without a hundred sites having the info before it happened.

They should have had someone do some shitty WCW house shows as a separate entity with the former stars on trying to build the product up again - even if it was just a play on the name. Then have them slowly come in attacking WWE stars and claiming that Vince lost them all their jobs and they want compensating or contracts on WWE TV - then just build it up to personal extents, they could have built it a bit longer until they got a few more big names to give it more credability and then end it at X8 - by which time they would have had the NWO and Flair and could have still done Hogan v Rock plus the added bonus of HHH being back.

It just seemed a bit rushed tbh - they could have rode the WWE without HHH - Austin and Angle could have feuded all summer just the same as could Rock and Jericho

[Chris]

The invasion angle made me completely fed up with Austin. I found his schtick of coming out by himself or with the rest of the alliance and cutting a rambling promo beyond tiresome by the end of it. The invasion promised something fresh, and then threw us right back into a focus on Austin and the McMahons. There was a built-in feud with The Rock, and yet we saw them singing together. It was enjoyable, don't get me wrong, but a pretty odd way of handling things. I also thought it was incredibly lazy for Austin to go back to being a face the night after he had tried to destroy the company, while Angle (who had saved the company by helping Rock defeat Austin) suddenly became arrogant and thus was a heel.

That year was a good example of how the distinct differences between a face and a heel can be quite ridiculous. Angle had been a sensible, honourable and legitimate character during the invasion, and now he was back to being a twat. Meanwhile, pre-Wrestlemania Austin was a bad-ass, post-Wrestlemania Austin was suddenly afraid to go toe-to-toe with Undertaker and Kane, Pre-Invasion Austin could take on the entire alliance single-handed while the WWF roster was getting beaten down, post-Invasion Austin was back to being a paranoid and anxious villain and post-Survivor Series Austin was a generic bad-ass again. I know that face or heel turns are usually accompanied by a pretty severe change in personality or motivations, but Austin went back and forth between extremes and it made it very difficult to take him seriously.

As for the invasion as a whole, the Invasion PPV was genuinely exciting because of all the new match-ups and the Summerslam and No Mercy PPVs remain two of the best that the company has ever put on. There was also a huge amount of memorable moments - the various run-ins after KOTR, DDP revealing himself to be Sara's stalker, the former ECW stars turning on the WWF, Austin storming the ring to join the big brawl on the Raw before the Invasion PPV, Angle winning the WCW Title in his home town, The Rock's return, Rhyno goring Jericho through the set, the alliance getting doused in milk, Angle making Kane tap out, Heyman's epic promo on Vince, etc, etc. The commentary was often excellent as well. Say what you will about Stephanie being revealed as the leader of ECW, but J.R. screaming "The sins of the father...are costing us all!" as she strolls past Vince can still give me goosebumps.

[Cewsh]

ECW had the Dudleyz, Rhyno and most of the WWE mid card. So, they had value unless you are saying WWE mid card has no value.

Rhyno is the greatest.

[dunno]

Three huge things that I haven't really seen mentioned also screwed things up, I think:

1. Triple H getting injured. It rushed things and that could be the reason why we didn't get the big names for the Invasion.
2. Benoit also got injured before or at King of the Ring. He could've been a huge name for the Alliance side.
3. Eddie was in rehab and still dealing with his problems. Like Benoit, he likely would've been a big part of the Alliance side.

I also thought that, while Angle was great during that period, they turned him a bit too much. It felt like he changed 4 or 5 times in a short time period. He was really, really over as a face in the summer.

The best things about that period were Angle/Austin and Rock/Jericho, as you guys have mentioned.

[Matty C]

Not much to add really, much of what I feel has been said but I’ll always look back at it with disappointment for what it could have been. As has been said, most of the big names made their way into WWE shortly afterward anyway. It seems like a waste that they weren’t there for the main angle. You can slag the WCW main eventers off for their shortcomings (and there were many) but WWE signing them so shortly afterward kind of kills that argument for me. If you’re going to sign them, sign them for when they’ll have the most impact and to me, that’s the Invasion angle. Even WWE seemed to admit the WCW roster they provided was underwhelming by introducing ECW into the equation.

If they were a mess, and most were, sign them for the angle and then cut ties. It’s essentially what happened afterward anyway. As it was, the time period was enjoyable but given how hot WWE and their core talent was the year would have been enjoyable pretty well regardless of whether they did the Invasion angle or not. The talent made it work because some of the best talent ever assembled by WWE, guys who were already in place, were on fire. So I’m always left thinking about how much better the year could have been with the guys that people actually considered WCWs main eventers interacting with that pre-existing hall of fame talent.

Perhaps, as some have said, it was always destined to disappoint given the immediate hype and expectation thrust upon it. Still, I think there are obvious wasted opportunities and that’s too bad because I don’t think we’ll ever see anything like it again in our life times.

[Atty]

I think for too much of it they lost scope on what made a proper babyface and a proper heel to the point where we're still dealing with mixed reactions today. They'd create a bonafide character and then shit on it, mainly in the aftermath. Jericho, Rock, RVD and Angle were all great in late Summer as they felt genuine, before they went back to the status quo booking straight after. Look at the night after Raw. Good episode by the way, but in that episode they turned RVD into your basic midcard face with no edge, Angle became an arse sniffer again despite being a badass throughout the Summer, Jericho became a basic heel cheat rather than an individual with a rivalry for Rocky, authority figures were still around and feuding. So I don't think it was necessarily the invasion that was a huge failure, it was the inability to capitalise on the characters that got over during the whole thing.

So very true. Jericho got a nice slow (for the time) build to a heel turn and it worked great. Then, the second he won both belts, was booked very generically as a heel. The way they had built his feud with Rock, he had legitimate reasons to be upset with the crowd cheering for Rocky and so forth, but all of that was dropped the moment he pinned Austin.


Hell, even through him beating Rock again in the first match of the back to back, was great. Beating him with the Rock Bottom was lovely. Should have done the same with Austin. Have the interference and then have Austin struggle to get up, the new mega heel flip him off, stunner, pin. It wou;d have been gloriously dickish.