Homosexuality in Wrestling

[The Law]

Jason Collins coming out as gay is a good chance to take stock of homosexuality in the wrestling business. Generally, wrestling's history on this subject (and most other social issues) is not good. Gay characters have overwhelmingly been portrayed in a stereotypical and offensive manner, and almost exclusively as villains. Behind the screen, the record is a little more mixed: Chris Kanyon claimed he was fired for being gay, but WWE employed Pat Patterson for decades, and it was well-known for much of that time that he was gay.

What would progress on homosexuality in wrestling look like? I could definitely go for less gay jokes. Is there a positive portrayal of a homosexual character in the future? What would happen if a member of the WWE roster came out?

[Slare]

Rico had a nice wee face run as a flaming homo in 2004 and Billy and Chuck got turned eventually too. I think fans would be quite happy getting behind a gay character that's not presented as a dastardly faggotly heel.

[Kimura Kid]

Kanyon and Patterson are homosexuals? I had no idea. Who else is?

[Kdestiny]

No one else that I know of.

i try to picture if John Cena, the top guy in all of wrestling, were to come out. What would the reactions to that be like?

[takerson]

Were, in Kanyon's case, he committed suicide.

[Slare]

So having a read through a bunch of recent posts by him, and well...Kimura Kid HAS to be a troll or a sock ffs. Come on. Either that or he's genuinely just spawned into existance in the last few months and has no idea what the internet or wrestling is beyond February of 2013.

[takerson]

Supposedly that's exactly the case. He quit wrestling for many years and JUST got back into it... I believe it. :dunno:

[Slare]

But like, no disrespect to the guy because he's pleasant enough, but its just too 'wide-eyed mark' who loves everything and is genuinely astonished by little nuggets well known by everyone who has even the slightest interest in wrestling. Like the whole "IS HHH REALLY DISLIKED" and waiting for about 20 massive replies explaining it all. Just seems like a brilliant bit of trolling to me.

[Hero!]

Orlando Jordan is Bi.

TNA had him pour white stuff all over his face and chest once.

[turdpower]

Didn't we establish KK was about 14 or something?

It explains it a bit.

EDIT: His profile says he's 29.

[MMH]

I dont think you really can progress homosexuality in wrestling. Its hard to push them as a face without referring to their sexuality if that makes sense? It shouldnt matter what sexual orientation they are. The ideal way would be to have someone openly homsexual in real life but just be a regular wrestler not be the whole "hey support this guy because he is gay".

As for what would happen backstage I honestly dont think anybody would give a damn. There have been powerful gay people in wrestling already and I dont think its seen as that big of a deal anymore.

Oh Terry Garvin and Jim Barnett were openly gay too.

[Kimura Kid]

But like, no disrespect to the guy because he's pleasant enough, but its just too 'wide-eyed mark' who loves everything and is genuinely astonished by little nuggets well known by everyone who has even the slightest interest in wrestling. Like the whole "IS HHH REALLY DISLIKED" and waiting for about 20 massive replies explaining it all. Just seems like a brilliant bit of trolling to me.

I'm a bit of a n00b to almost everything past WM14. Hated Seeing Michaels leave the business and wasn't a huge fan of the attitude era. I tunned in to wrestling every once in a while after WM 14. I enjoyed the time Trips was on top because he was affiliated with HBK, who was the reason I fell in love with wrestling. I loved 80's and Early 90's Wrestling, Still do.

I'll admit I love to hear the opinions of the modern wrestling fan. I enjoy hearing their opinions and learning. I'm sure I come off as a complete n00b and idiot sometimes. But I don't really give a fuck. I enjoy learning new things and am not ashamed of my lack of knowledge. I had no idea that either of these guys were gay, I had no idea that HHH was hated deeply by the Wrestling community....Especially because around the time I attended WM 22 he was super over and billed as the legitimate best in the Biz. The Chicago fans fucking loved him and we are known for being Huge Wrestling fans. So yea it suprized me he was hated. (The Boo, Yeah chant was created that night for the Cena Vs HHH Match)

And I don't enjoy all of wrestling. I used to be pretty vocal about my dislikes but felt that I came off like a whiney bitch. I hated Fandango and still don't understand why he was givin such a terrible gimmick. Not a fan of a Ballroom Dancer as a Pro Wrestler.....but it's working. I fucking hate the push that swagger got. I don't think that Colter is as special as everyone thinks. He's fucking boring. I don't enjoy Cesaro's Yodeling or lack of push. I don't like the champions loosing every week. But who wants to listen to a guy that's just getting back in to wrestling complain about everything and act like a fucking know it all?

[JP]

A slow-burning coming out angle with the right people involved and the right locations used and more importantly not used (yes, I'm looking at you Carolinas) could be mega money.

In terms of the company themselves, their honest commitment to eradicating homophobia or homophobic comments from themselves has been a joy to watch. Even someone like Michael Cole, who is not homophobic in any way and actually a bit of a progressive, when he messed up on twitter the response was almost immediate. Ditto with Punk - who is proud and loud with his support of equality - when he misjudged the boundaries. They're work with young people is especially touching and will have such a positive effect.

It's not that surprising in context, McMahon's best friend for over 30 years has been Pat Patterson and he's been defending him from homophobic attacks for just about as long.

Credit should also go to TNA, who while don't have an official policy in place as the WWE does (and its incredible partnership with GLADD) they are very hot on this too, as seen with their fast response to Bully Ray recently and his seemingly fulsome and genuine apology too.

In general, it's never been better to be gay or bi and we're seeing a reflection of that. It's good to see and long may it continue.

[Kimura Kid]

Didn't we establish KK was about 14 or something?

It explains it a bit.

EDIT: His profile says he's 29.

Yeah I'm 14 coming from the the guy with a username of Turdpower.......

[JP]

I'm a bit of a n00b to almost everything past WM14. Hated Seeing Michaels leave the business and wasn't a huge fan of the attitude era. I tunned in to wrestling every once in a while after WM 14. I enjoyed the time Trips was on top because he was affiliated with HBK, who was the reason I fell in love with wrestling. I loved 80's and Early 90's Wrestling, Still do.

I'll admit I love to hear the opinions of the modern wrestling fan. I enjoy hearing their opinions and learning. I'm sure I come off as a complete n00b and idiot sometimes. But I don't really give a fuck. I enjoy learning new things and am not ashamed of my lack of knowledge. I had no idea that either of these guys were gay, I had no idea that HHH was hated deeply by the Wrestling community....Especially because around the time I attended WM 22 he was super over and billed as the legitimate best in the Biz. The Chicago fans fucking loved him and we are known for being Huge Wrestling fans. So yea it suprized me he was hated. (The Boo, Yeah chant was created that night for the Cena Vs HHH Match)

And I don't enjoy all of wrestling. I used to be pretty vocal about my dislikes but felt that I came off like a whiney bitch. I hated Fandango and still don't understand why he was givin such a terrible gimmick. Not a fan of a Ballroom Dancer as a Pro Wrestler. I fucking hate the push that swagger got. I don't think that Colter is as special as everyone thinks. He's fucking boring. I don't enjoy Cesaro's Yodeling or lack of push. I don't like the champions loosing every week. But who wants to listen to a guy that's just getting back in to wrestling complain about everything and act like a fucking no it all? Besides you of course.

This is why I don't immediately discredit the sock calls, seem so desperate to argue against it. Was the same - and bloody hilarious - when Tempest did the same with you.

Presuming you're not a sock, why give a shit if someone thinks you are, just ignore the post and carry on enjoying the forums.

[Kimura Kid]

Cuz it's annoying that guys feel the need to talk shit or poke fun at a guy that is just eager to learn. It's fucking childish. And I don't like to be accused of something that's not true. I shouldn't just accept the fact that people think i've created a fake forum account to troll. I would like to make this place my home for wrestling talk, And be a respected member of the community.....that's not gonna happen if people think that i'm a giant fucking troll. You don't like me that's 1 thing....I can deal with that. But don't accuse me of something so fucking stupid and childish and expect me to be cool with it.

[Matthew]

didn't like the attitude era... but loves cm punk

doesn't make sense

[JP]

Cuz it's annoying that guys feel the need to talk shit or poke fun at a guy that is just eager to learn. It's fucking childish. And I don't like to be accused of something that's not true. I shouldn't just accept the fact that people think i've created a fake forum account to troll. I would like to make this place my home for wrestling talk, And be a respected member of the community.....that's not gonna happen if people think that i'm a giant fucking troll. You don't like me that's 1 thing....I can deal with that. But don't accuse me of something so fucking stupid and childish and expect me to be cool with it.

Yeah mate, that's the only childish thing here. Not your responses. Oh no, they're completely mature and not overblown at all. Statesman-like, I'd go as far as saying.

Look, you're a quality poster who's added to the conversation around here, don't be so hung up on an accusation that is actually a backhanded compliment anyway.

Take up yoga or something bab, I think you might need a stress release. ;)



Anyway, back on topic.

New question: Why are gays so amazing? GO!

[Kimura Kid]

didn't like the attitude era... but loves cm punk

doesn't make sense

Why doesn't it make sense? Punk's from the city I was born and raised in. His personality is that of someone that lives in Chicago not sombody that lived in the Attitude Era.

I didn't hate the attitude era either. Just wasn't very fond of it. I don't look back on it as the good ol days.

[Matthew]

Why doesn't it make sense? Punk's from the city I was born and raised in. His personality is that of someone that lives in Chicago not sombody that lived in the Attitude Era.because cm punk is pretty much the attitude era.

[Kimura Kid]

Yeah mate, that's the only childish thing here. Not your responses. Oh no, they're completely mature and not overblown at all. Statesman-like, I'd go as far as saying.

Look, you're a quality poster who's added to the conversation around here, don't be so hung up on an accusation that is actually a backhanded compliment anyway.

Take up yoga or something bab, I think you might need a stress release. ;)

I don't need yoga "bab" I just expect people to give me the same respect I give them. Maybe that's my issue. Too many people with small mans complex around here. Like the fucking idiot who neg repped me for because I didnt have a Witty title for the Raw thread.

[virms]

This thread is about homos so get back on topic.

[Kimura Kid]

because cm punk is pretty much the attitude era.

:eyebrow:

Ok buddy whatever you say. A single person doesn't make up what an entire era of wrestling was about.

[JP]

I don't need yoga "bab" I just expect people to give me the same respect I give them. Maybe that's my issue. Too many people with small mans complex around here. Like the fucking idiot who neg repped me for posting the Raw thread without a Witty title.

:lol:

You're either a sock or you're mental. I like you either way, petal.

[Kimura Kid]

I'm a little unstable at times. Normally in situations of conflict.

[Kyle_242]

I dont think you really can progress homosexuality in wrestling. Its hard to push them as a face without referring to their sexuality if that makes sense? It shouldnt matter what sexual orientation they are. The ideal way would be to have someone openly homsexual in real life but just be a regular wrestler not be the whole "hey support this guy because he is gay".

As for what would happen backstage I honestly dont think anybody would give a damn. There have been powerful gay people in wrestling already and I dont think its seen as that big of a deal anymore.

Oh Terry Garvin and Jim Barnett were openly gay too.

Basically this.

We've finally gotten to the point where being gay doesn't necessarily define perceptions about who you are and what you can do. Wrestling should be no exception. We don't need a gay character, a heel or otherwise, and creating one would immediately make it seem very dated.

So naturally, I wouldn't put it past the WWE.

[turdpower]

Yeah I'm 14 coming from the the guy with a username of Turdpower.......

Oh I can't be bothered.

While I wasn't having a go at you I can see why you would read it like that.

[Jimmy Zero]

I always point to Goldust's first run in the mid-90's when this sort of topic comes up. I don't think his character was explicitly portrayed as a gay, but the ambiguity was there and based on his mannerisms and stuff, the implication was obvious. He was an incredibly revolutionary character, at the time, and the portrayal was excellent. He did the fruity stuff, sure, but he was also portrayed as a skilled wrestler and legitimate (mid-card) threat. He was easily one of the most compelling characters they had, at the time.

[Matthew]

:eyebrow:

Ok buddy whatever you say. A single person doesn't make up what an entire era of wrestling was about.the attitude era was all about crossing the line and such. that is basically what cm punk is. you can let it roll off of you, but it doesn't make it less true.

[Slare]

Cuz it's annoying that guys feel the need to talk shit or poke fun at a guy that is just eager to learn. It's fucking childish. And I don't like to be accused of something that's not true. I shouldn't just accept the fact that people think i've created a fake forum account to troll. I would like to make this place my home for wrestling talk, And be a respected member of the community.....that's not gonna happen if people think that i'm a giant fucking troll. You don't like me that's 1 thing....I can deal with that. But don't accuse me of something so fucking stupid and childish and expect me to be cool with it.

I didn't mean what I was saying in a bad way by the way. I'm just so used to the same type of smarky, dickish, annoying wrestling fans coming on here and elsewhere in the internet I'm just absolutely baffled by you.

If you're legit then fair play to you, you love your wrestling and you love posting on here and I quite enjoy your perspective on some things, and if you're a socktroll then you're playing an incredible and dedicated long game.

[Kimura Kid]

Oh I can't be bothered.

While I wasn't having a go at you I can see why you would read it like that.

My aplogies if that wasn't your intention. That's how I precieved it though. :cheers:

[Slare]

Oh I can't be bothered.

While I wasn't having a go at you I can see why you would read it like that.

shut up TURD POWER. What kind of fucking name is that mate? POO WATTAGE or something?

[Kimura Kid]

I didn't mean what I was saying in a bad way by the way. I'm just so used to the same type of smarky, dickish, annoying wrestling fans coming on here and elsewhere in the internet I'm just absolutely baffled by you.

If you're legit then fair play to you, you love your wrestling and you love posting on here and I quite enjoy your perspective on some things, and if you're a socktroll then you're playing an incredible and dedicated long game.

Man I need some reading comprehension courses. I felt like I was getting attacked here and it turns out I'm just over reacting again.....Yikes. I'm sorry bud. No troll/sock just love wrestling and love this community....most of the time....hahaha!!

[Jimmy Zero]

Man I need some reading comprehension courses. I felt like I was getting attacked here and it turns out I'm just over reacting again.....Yikes. I'm sorry bud. No troll/sock just love wrestling and love this community....most of the time....hahaha!!

You could also try not pitching a hissy fit every time someone brings it up.

[Kimura Kid]

You could also try not pitching a hissy fit every time someone brings it up.

Prolly not gonna happen man. Accuse me of bullshit and I'm prolly not gonna be cool with it. Seems logical but apparently I'm supposed to not be bothered by retarded alligations when I've done nothing but try and contribute here in a positive way.

[Andy]

For fucks sake turdpower, Kimura Kid is a breath of fresh air but you may well have turned him into a clone of every other poster here. :lol:

[Kneeneighbor]

Yeah I'm 14 coming from the the guy with a username of Turdpower.......

In that case Id say you are fucking 29, why are you calling yourself a kid?

[Jimmy Zero]

Prolly not gonna happen man. Accuse me of bullshit and I'm prolly not gonna be cool with it. Seems logical but apparently I'm supposed to not be bothered by retarded alligations when I've done nothing but try and contribute here in a positive way.

I don't have a problem with you, I'm just saying it does you know favors by writing essays in response to people accusing you of being a sock.

For a 29 year old, you seem awfully thin skinned.

[VHS]

[pushed to next page]

[Kimura Kid]

I don't have a problem with you, I'm just saying it does you know favors by writing essays in response to people accusing you of being a sock.

For a 29 year old, you seem awfully thin skinned.

Just bored at work with nothing else to do. And Im admittedly a hot head.

[Kimura Kid]

In that case Id say you are fucking 29, why are you calling yourself a kid?

Just thought it sounded cool to be honest.

[virms]

VHS is actually a beta max machine :panic:

I posted from the future. Neat.

[chatty]

I dont think you really can progress homosexuality in wrestling. Its hard to push them as a face without referring to their sexuality if that makes sense? It shouldnt matter what sexual orientation they are. The ideal way would be to have someone openly homsexual in real life but just be a regular wrestler not be the whole "hey support this guy because he is gay".

As for what would happen backstage I honestly dont think anybody would give a damn. There have been powerful gay people in wrestling already and I dont think its seen as that big of a deal anymore.

Oh Terry Garvin and Jim Barnett were openly gay too.

Pretty much this. They could mention he/she was gay and just get on with it but building a character around their sexuality will almost always end up stereotyping in some way.

[VHS]

Everybody has their buttons, no harm no foul. I don't like being wrongly alphabetized, but surely this is the easiest place to role with things KK. :yes:

As for the original topic, I respect Collins in his announcement because even in 2013 there's still a sense of caution that needs to be registered when an athlete contemplates coming out. With wrestling, sadly, it's a whole other story since different minds and opinions run the industry from another perspective. The NBA is a real-life competitive sport while WWE is an act, which shouldn't inhibit a performer's openness in their sexual orientation, but even then... we still have people keeping their mouths shut about it. They still fear for their jobs, and that ain't right. Hopefully some day that will change in WWE.


VHS is actually a beta max machine :panic:

I paved the way for your... PRECIOUS... "next chapter" button.

[Red Dog]

This is why I don't immediately discredit the sock calls, seem so desperate to argue against it. Was the same - and bloody hilarious - when Tempest did the same with you.

Presuming you're not a sock, why give a shit if someone thinks you are, just ignore the post and carry on enjoying the forums.
He is damned if he does and damned if he doesnt - if he ignores it people will say it is suspicious.

I think calling him a sock is just a crap bit of trolling by SLARE to be honest.

No-one puts that much effort into being a sock - leave him alone.

[Andy]

In theory there really shouldn't be a problem with homosexuality in wrestling. Unless they decided to try and make a story out of it, it shouldn't be an issue at all. If people know someone is gay, so what? I don't think it's like football or other sports where idiotic fans will use it to wind up rivals and opponents. Wrestling fans aren't like that.

[Slare]

It wasn't really crap trolling though was it mate? I never attacked him or said anything remotely trolly, I just asked if it was a point anyone had picked up on and pretty much gave the guy a few backhanded compliments in there too.

The guy has said his piece and I'm happy with his explaination, so you can leave your shining armour in the closet (that's a gay reference because the thread is about homosexuals, I'm not trolling you, just to clarify).

[VHS]

Is it too much to ask for you guys to drop it?

[Red Dog]

It wasn't really crap trolling though was it mate? I never attacked him or said anything remotely trolly, I just asked if it was a point anyone had picked up on and pretty much gave the guy a few backhanded compliments in there too.

The guy has said his piece and I'm happy with his explaination, so you can leave your shining armour in the closet (that's a gay reference because the thread is about homosexuals, I'm not trolling you, just to clarify).
Accusing someone of being a sock is pretty much textbook beginner's trolling - because it will 99/100 illicit a negative or defensive reaction.

Here to help.

Back on topic if the WWE were to turn anyone gay it would be Fandango. Ratings.

[Slare]

No, it's not.

As for Homosexuals in wrestling, I'm fairly sure I've read that there's a good few of the guys in the locker room who are shirt-lifters and nobody really gives a fuck, which is how it should be.

The only way it would be an issue is if the WWE made it an issue, and while Vince is still cutting about, I wouldn't put it past them. It seems like something that they would massively misjudge in a misguided attempt to B A STAR while completely offending poofs all over the shop - much like TNA did with Orlando Jordan.

However, as was said earlier in the thread, I don't think there is any want or need for an OMG HES OUT wrestler, but I reckon it's not too far around the corner.

[Red Dog]

Yes it is.

Just cause you have a crap life at the moment, dont take it out on the KIMURA KID.

[Slare]

'No, it's not' was for VHS when he was asking us if it was too much trouble to drop it.

I was dropping it. I repped you privately to stop cluttering up the thread, but here you fucking come Red Dog, here you fucking come bringing up my shit job and my shit life and my shit not having a girlfriend and you made it personal mate. This isn't about the Kid from Kimura anymore you Crimson Canine, this is about something else probably.

[JP]

There's only one person trolling at the minute, Red Dog.

Let's all just agree that we love KK, this place is better with him and get back to discussing the dirty gays.


I think some of you are possibly thinking a little bit too black and while when it comes to the possibility of building an angle around a potentially gay character. The fact he's gay isn't the story, the building of a narrative of finding strength, acceptance and friendship until having the courage to come out would be the story. And then after, depending on how it was handled, with the right people a homphobic heel could be beaten.

[Ringo]

Right. Since the sexuality of the vast majority of the characters on the roster is not relevant (has Sheamus ever done anything on screen to suggest he's heterosexual? Kofi Kingston? etc.) the best way to portray a gay character if they were to go there would to simply reference it in a fleeting way. But that's probably not going to happen.

Jeff Katz did it with Joey Ryan in WRP - a regular guy who just happened to be gay - but of course that never saw the light of day.

[Kimura Kid]

The fact he's gay isn't the story, the building of a narrative of finding strength, acceptance and friendship until having the courage to come out would be the story. And then after, depending on how it was handled, with the right people a homphobic heel could be beaten.

That sounds fantastic man, I would root for the guy. And the homophobic heel is genius!!

He could come out to one of the bigger faces of the company for support behind the scenes. The fans would see that the face accepts him for who he is and he gains acceptance from the fans right then. Of course like you mentioned earlier you could build the story around courage to come out and gain acceptance from the rest of the locker room. But then the Homophobic heel over hears them discussing it ands tells the entire WWE community. The WWE Universe rally's behind said gey wrestler and the fued is born.

[chatty]

I think Fandango could be a good character to pull it off. It could be portrayed as stereotypical to begin with with him being a dancer etc but then he has that mean steak than goes against the old stereotype of them being cowardly chickenshit heels. The fans love him so they could build the anger angle up as his unacceptance to admit his sexuality and then turn him face with it as he starts just being who he is. Plenty ammo to have a homophobic heel and the crowd would take to him imo plus it could get him out of the dancer gimmick that'll get old after about a year.

[Red Dog]

'No, it's not' was for VHS when he was asking us if it was too much trouble to drop it.

I was dropping it. I repped you privately to stop cluttering up the thread, but here you fucking come Red Dog, here you fucking come bringing up my shit job and my shit life and my shit not having a girlfriend and you made it personal mate. This isn't about the Kid from Kimura anymore you Crimson Canine, this is about something else probably.
Haha. Chin(s) up mate.

Consider this dropped.

[Cewsh]

didn't like the attitude era... but loves cm punk

doesn't make sense


the attitude era was all about crossing the line and such. that is basically what cm punk is. you can let it roll off of you, but it doesn't make it less true.

The Attitude Era was about getting away with doing dick and fart jokes on television while setting people on fire. That has nothing to do with CM Punk, just because both of them are edgy in different ways. Stop being a bully for no reason and bully the people who actually have it coming.


As for homosexuality in wrestling, I very much hope that any wrestlers who are gay, or anyone who enters the industry from here on who is gay, can find a safe and supporting community, and an audience that is ready for them. But I don't want another gay character on wrestling television for at least another 20 years, because it's too loaded an issue to be treated with respect. It's all well and good for all of us here to say that we'd be behind it, and then you watch as whole cities cheer Jack Swagger for hating Mexicans and you realize that middle America is still very much what it has always been. Progress takes time, and wrestling has a heavy hand. Just leave sexuality out of it altogether.

[chatty]

Things don't cange unless you challenge them though. if your saying middle America isnt ready for it yet then they probably wont be in twenty years if they dont have to deal with it in that time.

[Cewsh]

Things don't cange unless you challenge them though. if your saying middle America isnt ready for it yet then they probably wont be in twenty years if they dont have to deal with it in that time.

There's a major difference between slowly changing the minds of your audience about a controversial social topic, and having a dude wear a rainbow flag and fight against Neo Nazis. Wrestling doesn't know the difference.

[chatty]

There's a major difference between slowly changing the minds of your audience about a controversial social topic, and having a dude wear a rainbow flag and fight against Neo Nazis. Wrestling doesn't know the difference.

True, it would probably be likely they would just do an over the top characterture.

[Mik]

I always point to Goldust's first run in the mid-90's when this sort of topic comes up. I don't think his character was explicitly portrayed as a gay, but the ambiguity was there and based on his mannerisms and stuff, the implication was obvious. He was an incredibly revolutionary character, at the time, and the portrayal was excellent. He did the fruity stuff, sure, but he was also portrayed as a skilled wrestler and legitimate (mid-card) threat. He was easily one of the most compelling characters they had, at the time.

But for the fact that many of the people he wrestled used to act terrified and weirded out by him through fear that he would fuck them...presumably.

[Ringo]

Remember when Goldust gave Ahmed mouth to mouth and Ahmed went mental?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xihj59_goldust-administers-cpr-to-ahmed-johnson-raw-5-27-96_sport

[Tainted Eclipse]

yeah, goldust isnt much to hold as an example of showing that homosexuals are something other than freaky weirdos to be feared, but was at least pushed as a serious competitor, which is something i guess.

i think having a regular wrestler who is gay but whose homosexuality isnt a definitive characteristic of him, and who ends up in a feud with a bigoted heel, could work well enough at this stage.

[Mik]

Remember when Goldust gave Ahmed mouth to mouth and Ahmed went mental?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xihj59_goldust-administers-cpr-to-ahmed-johnson-raw-5-27-96_sport


And Vinny Mac calls it the most disgusting and revolting act ever seen in the history of Monday Night Raw?

Yeah...that pretty much sums it up I think.

[Chris]

Since a good number of sitcoms and dramas in this day and age continue to portray homosexuals in a stereotypical manner, I'm not sure we can expect pro-wrestling to be at the forefront of handling the topic sensitively.

If WWE was to re-focus on a teenage audience, then a homosexual character might be a compelling social topic that could reflect the struggles of young people who struggle with coming out to their friends and family. But I don't think it's something that necessarily needs to be on their agenda, particularly as wrestling storylines remain quite simplistic and formulaic. The worst thing they could do, given their history, is to use homosexuality as a one-off story-telling gimmick or cheap heat device.

I think attitudes towards homosexual wrestlers will change gradually and indirectly - like someone else suggested, through the later recognition that a wrestler had been homosexual despite it never being referenced or reflected in storylines. These kinds of topics are best explored when they have an organic purpose, featuring a character that viewers are heavily invested in. Given how many wrestlers are left out in the wilderness when it comes to character development and consistency, the last thing I'd want to see is the creative team arbitrarily deciding to make a wrestler gay with no long-term plan beyond the shock factor.

[MMH]

And Vinny Mac calls it the most disgusting and revolting act ever seen in the history of Monday Night Raw?

Yeah...that pretty much sums it up I think.

Jerry Lawler outright called him a fag.

Vinnie Mac is hardly homophobic though of course so its a weird one.

[turdpower]

It surely doesn't matter. I don't care, does anyone?

Why would it be part of a gimmick? Most wrestlers could be gay and it doesn't affect the storyline in anyway. Imagine all of them as being gay instead of straight and it changes little to stories (apart from all the people involved with AJ).

[Jimmy Zero]

But for the fact that many of the people he wrestled used to act terrified and weirded out by him through fear that he would fuck them...presumably.

Yes, but the point was that, in spite of the way his opponents acted towards him (and all his sexual androgyny), he was still presented as a legitimate threat as a wrestler who was capable of beating, and at that very least stand toe to toe with, Razor Ramon. The fans bought it despite the massive homosexual overtones of his character.

[Hero!]

"I wonder why we can't get any new new posters to sign up"

*one signs up*

"SOCK! NOOB! ARE YOU SERIOUS MATE?"

[Cewsh]

It surely doesn't matter. I don't care, does anyone?

Well, yeah, obviously.


Yes, but the point was that, in spite of the way his opponents acted towards him (and all his sexual androgyny), he was still presented as a legitimate threat as a wrestler who was capable of beating, and at that very least stand toe to toe with, Razor Ramon. The fans bought it despite the massive homosexual overtones of his character.

Even if it did try to fight against the stigma that gay men couldn't be legit fighters, it undermined it at the same time by making actually being a gay man something disgusting and heelish. And since they distanced him from actually BEING gay later on, all that is left is him acting gay because that is weird and wrong.

[chatty]

How many wrestlers have WWE even used in a gay angle. Can't think of any past Goldust and Billy and Chuck?

[Kimura Kid]

How many wrestlers have WWE even used in a gay angle. Can't think of any past Goldust and Billy and Chuck?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lkjcKUA5q-s/TV56thueIqI/AAAAAAAAGVQ/y99vfjP3yCU/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-02-18+at+1.30.26+PM.png

[MMH]

How many wrestlers have WWE even used in a gay angle. Can't think of any past Goldust and Billy and Chuck?

Adrian Adonis and Rico.

[Cewsh]

Well Adrian Adonis was clearly intended that way. And looking into it, apparently the Heart Throbs were also intended to be seen that way.

[Kimura Kid]

Is Orlando Jordan ghey too?

[G-Fresh]

Adrian Adonis and Rico.

They would legit beat the fuck out of somebody though.

[Ringo]

"GHEY"?!

[Matthew]

omg don't jump on him, he's new here

[G-Fresh]

Don't jump on him cause he ain't ghey.

[JP]

They would legit beat the fuck out of somebody though.

:yes:

Same with Adrian Street. Was required I suppose, more likely to get attacked back in the day so had to be able to handle themselves.

[Kimura Kid]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_u3--I1q8j8Y/S7KViYm-KfI/AAAAAAAAU44/khsf4V1qVOs/s1600/4a5a1d6f88560.jpg

[The Law]

So I'm pretty much in agreement with what's been said in this thread. Wrestling is a very poor vehicle for societal progress, as it tends to appear to the lowest end of society and overwhelmingly indulges primal urges. Wrestling has a terrible history on race relations, foreigners, sexism, homosexuality, pretty much any minority group in existence has been portrayed poorly. For these reasons, I'm really not interested in seeing a gay wrestling character at any point in the near future. I don't think it would be handled well and I'm concerned how wrestling crowds would react to it.

Here's the big thing: What happens if an active member of the WWE roster came out? Or if WWE hired a wrestler who was already out? Should/would they acknowledge that wrestler's sexuality? Would it become part of their character? Should it be?

I guess my thought is that you probably couldn't ignore it because it would be a pretty big deal. The best way to handle it would probably just be for the wrestler to briefly acknowledge it on TV and then say that they hope to be judged for their skills in the ring rather than by their sexuality. And then never really acknowledge that they are gay again and just go back to treating them like any other member of the roster. That would be the real victory, when it was no longer important that someone was homosexual. That was the case when Tammy Baldwin won her Senate seat in Wisconsin last year (becoming the first openly gay American Senator): it just wasn't a big deal because it wasn't really surprising or unusual that a gay person would be in a prominent political role.

One last thing, which is sort of a separate issue: Should gay wrestler come out to the broader public? I'm of the feeling that while it's an individual's decisions how and when to come out, it's generally something that should be encouraged. The best way to make progress for LBGT rights is to continue to expose people to LBGT people. It's not a coincidence that support for gay rights has climbed as the number of people who knew a gay person has risen over the years. So basically, I consider coming out to be a public service, but one that is ultimately an individual's choice. I would hope that a gay wrestler would make the choice to come out.

[Cewsh]

Is Orlando Jordan ghey too?

He's bisexual. As am I, mth and, I believe, Ringo. Just for reference.

[Hero!]

Don't forget JP, the OG of BI.

[Cewsh]

JP BE DA OG BI FR

[JP]

Damn straight. Sort of.

Orlando likes 'em camp, I see.

[Andy]

Ringo is bi? Learn something new every day. Isn't Tempest gay too?

[Hero!]

Tempest is as gay as I am short.

[Judas Iscariot]

That's pretty damn gay.

[wardy]

Lets be honest. We're all gay.

[G-Fresh]

All you eurofucks are.

[wardy]

I knew you'd be first to reply.

[G-Fresh]

IHQ shun

[Ringo]

I'm mostly gay.

[Hero!]

Oh, we know.


PsILoveYou

[mth]

Can't say much that hasn't already been said but I think it'd be cool if there was a wrestler who's (or who's character was) gay but it really had next to nothing to do with his gimmick. Similarly to how they have little romance angles where a guy has eyes for a diva and maybe they flirt a bit here and there and maybe she becomes his manager or they hang out on-screen, I'd just do something like that only a dude with another dude. But I can absolutely see that stirring up a negative reaction even if it's nothing shocking or overly flamboyant so not sure if it'd be worth doing. But I think tainted eclipse made a decent suggestion where you could then put them against a bigoted bullying face and have a feel good story where they overcome the heel and the heel realizes the error of their bigotry and comes to respect the guy (and make it the one angle that involves his sexuality, after which it's a non-factor).

Also, why has no one brought up Mickie going all lesbian with Trish? Her character was at least bisexual given that whole angle, I'd say.

[Cewsh]

I thought it was revealed that her intentions were much more like Goldust's than any actual interest in Trish sexually.

[Bill Casey]

How many wrestlers have WWE even used in a gay angle. Can't think of any past Goldust and Billy and Chuck?
Does Demolition count?

[mth]

I thought it was revealed that her intentions were much more like Goldust's than any actual interest in Trish sexually.
I can't remember. Did she cut a promo where she said she was just doing it to mess with her? I thought it just kind of fizzled from her character after their Mania match...though she did keep kissing chicks with her Long Kiss Goodnight kick finisher.

[mr sabu]

there need to be a gay guy who t-bags everyone after a win

[Hero!]

I vote for Donkey Dick Damnien to do it.

[The_Mike]

I can't remember. Did she cut a promo where she said she was just doing it to mess with her? I thought it just kind of fizzled from her character after their Mania match...though she did keep kissing chicks with her Long Kiss Goodnight kick finisher.

That's what I thought, too. I don't recall Mickie repudiating her interest in Trish, more just admitting to being plain crazy, until she turned face and was forcibly kissing women for the pops. Which, as much as a double standard as it may be, is probably a big reason nobody thought to bring her up before: it's different when girls do it. That is usually presented as purely titillating for the audience. The same company that outright called Goldust a fag also outright said "we want to get ratings by parading around some lesbians".

Maybe that's a place they could start. Do the story with a woman rather than a guy, but don't turn it into softcore porn and try to remember that these are real people with real feelings. They'd get less resistance even from fairly conservative audiences I imagine, but at the same time, it would require the WWE to remember that women are people too. So, yeah, I'm with Cewsh in thinking they would be better leaving this alone. Even when Linda McMahon was in charge, the company couldn't drag its portrayal of women out of the 1950s, other than to stick a thong on them. The first chance they get to have a pseudo-Arab on screen in the 21st century, they have him praise 9/11. Wrestling just is too backward an environment to handle this kind of issue without utterly imploding with bad taste.

[Hero!]

Edit: wrong thread

[mth]

Awhile back I decided in my mind that the Prime Time Players are a gay couple.

[G-Fresh]

The fruity dancing shit didn't give it away?

[lotjx]

That's what I thought, too. I don't recall Mickie repudiating her interest in Trish, more just admitting to being plain crazy, until she turned face and was forcibly kissing women for the pops. Which, as much as a double standard as it may be, is probably a big reason nobody thought to bring her up before: it's different when girls do it. That is usually presented as purely titillating for the audience. The same company that outright called Goldust a fag also outright said "we want to get ratings by parading around some lesbians".

Maybe that's a place they could start. Do the story with a woman rather than a guy, but don't turn it into softcore porn and try to remember that these are real people with real feelings. They'd get less resistance even from fairly conservative audiences I imagine, but at the same time, it would require the WWE to remember that women are people too. So, yeah, I'm with Cewsh in thinking they would be better leaving this alone. Even when Linda McMahon was in charge, the company couldn't drag its portrayal of women out of the 1950s, other than to stick a thong on them. The first chance they get to have a pseudo-Arab on screen in the 21st century, they have him praise 9/11. Wrestling just is too backward an environment to handle this kind of issue without utterly imploding with bad taste.

It would work better with a woman. The guys would be about it and it might allow for some female fans to feel empowered. Yet, this company has been missing lay ups as if they were a 6th grader special ed team of late. Its better they leave it alone, but knowing how Vince loves grabbing media attention, I kinda doubt it. If anything I expect JBL to bury whoever it is, because well its JBL.

[Cewsh]

It would work better with a woman. It might allow for some female fans to feel empowered.]

Why would it make women feel empowered?

[The_Mike]

It would work better with a woman. The guys would be about it and it might allow for some female fans to feel empowered. Yet, this company has been missing lay ups as if they were a 6th grader special ed team of late. Its better they leave it alone, but knowing how Vince loves grabbing media attention, I kinda doubt it. If anything I expect JBL to bury whoever it is, because well its JBL.

I'm not sure female fans will feel empowered by the inevitable use of women for sexual titillation that would come from a lesbian storyline, but I am sure it is somewhat ironic to complain that WWE is failing to handle diversity issues by making fun of the physically and mentally challenged.

[Kyle_242]

Eugene was an inspiration to us all.

[G-Fresh]

Mickie James doing the snatch rub finger lick against Trish will forever be the hottest shit in wrestling history.

[Bert]

http://i.imgur.com/LsPYeQI.gif


Mickie James has revealed in an interview how Vince McMahon yelled at her in the aftermath of her first WrestleMania match.

James debuted in WWE in 2005 and participated in a memorable angle with Trish Stratus. The storyline climaxed at WrestleMania 22 where James capture the WWE Women's Championship from the blonde bombshell, but contained a controversial moment. Her character had developed crazed lust-like feelings for her opponent, touched Stratus' crotch and made a provocative gesture towards the camera insinuating lesbian intimacy.

McMahon was furious with James and ordered the gesture be edited out of future video releases.

Speaking to Wrestlecast, James recalls: "The only people that remember that are the people watching or who were there live and in person. It didn't make the DVD.

"I came back through the curtain and Vince was really mad. In the moment it had seemed amazing to me. I thought 'Vince will love this'.

"'Crass' was the word I got. He didn't like it at all. He told me 'We're going to have to go back and edit that out. Do you know how much time (this will take)?'

"This was my first Wrestlemania, my mom was in the audience, I'm freaking out already. I'm back through the curtain and I'm already in tears and an emotional mess. And I got yelled at."

Poor Mickie.

[G-Fresh]

If that ain't motivation for rape, nothing is.

[Atty]

http://ourwweviews.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/big20040728-brocksmooch.jpg

[Brian M.]

I recently re-watched that James VS Stratus match. It was pretty good and the crowd was super into it. Very fun to watch.

Basically what I'm saying is before WWE should think about introducing a gay character, it should think about re-introducing women who can actually wrestle.

[JP]

Tempest is as gay as I am short.

Tempest is short as you are short.

[Atty]

I recently re-watched that James VS Stratus match. It was pretty good and the crowd was super into it. Very fun to watch.

Basically what I'm saying is before WWE should think about introducing a gay character, it should think about re-introducing women who can actually wrestle.

The unedited version is fantastic. It was so unique and fresh.

[Beer-Belly]

http://ourwweviews.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/big20040728-brocksmooch.jpg

I'm amazed that Brock didn't say, "No fucking way" to that.

[Badger]

Queering don't make the wrestling work.

[casselmm47]

Didn't WWE get some flack when, after going all-out promoting Billy and Chuck and their impending wedding, they revealed (to the remaining part of the world that didn't get that it was a storyline, not legit) Billy and Chuck weren't gay? They'd be better off finding and building up a legit homosexual wrestler than have a wrestler 'become' gay as a storyline.

[Slare]

Wanted: Faggot.

[Cewsh]

Didn't WWE get some flack when, after going all-out promoting Billy and Chuck and their impending wedding, they revealed (to the remaining part of the world that didn't get that it was a storyline, not legit) Billy and Chuck weren't gay? They'd be better off finding and building up a legit homosexual wrestler than have a wrestler 'become' gay as a storyline.

They got TONS of flack from that. GLAAD and a lot of gay publications had actually given WWE a lot of good press leading up to the wedding, only for WWE to basically take the biggest shit physically possible on it. There were some boycotts after that. Just mind numbingly stupid on WWE's part.

[The_Mike]

I find it baffling that Vince was determined to get both the Katie Vick angle and some kind of incest angle on TV, but he flips out at a visual allusion to cunnilingus. Well, par for the course with the WWE and their utter incapability of being consistent, which I largely put down to Vince himself, but it probably explains why it's the sort of company that would torpedo its own good press by wrecking the Billy and Chuck angle and why they just shouldn't get within fifty feet of trying to deal with any kind of sensitive social issue again.

[Cewsh]

For the record, there truly is no evidence that the Burchill incest angle was ever actually going to happen.

[Ringo]

They certainly hinted at it early on.

[Vice]

I was thinking Mike was referring to Vince wanting to be the father of Steph's child. And then when Steph shot that idea down, he wanted Shane to be the father.

[Beer-Belly]

Christ, that incest angle could have seriously killed WWE.

[The Law]

I think the evidence is that every single person who saw those segments thought that it was going there. "What Katie wants, Katie gets."

[The_Mike]

For the record, there truly is no evidence that the Burchill incest angle was ever actually going to happen.

I actually meant his proposed incest angle with his own daughter. She and HHH have both mentioned that one publicly.

EDIT: Yeah, what Vice said. Should have checked the next page.

[Cewsh]

Gotcha. :yes:

[mth]

I'm pretty sure I've read interviews with Katie Lea where she said the incest angle was the initial plan.

[The Law]

Man, Vince is such a fucked up guy. The Playboy interview pretty much told you everything you need to know: physically and sexually abused as a child, had a sexual relationship with a girl he referred to as "in essence, my cousin." Basically, we've been watching Vince's therapy play out on TV for the last few decades. By far the most fascinating man in wrestling and one of the most interesting people in the world.

[Andy]

Got a link to this interview?

[Ringo]

Here:


The following interview was conducted by Playboy magazine in February of 2001. It offers a rare glimpse at the man beneath the character that drives American wrestling into the future. The following is the first of four parts, in which McMahon discusses growing up in a trailer park and enduring physical and sexual abuse at the hands of his mother and stepfather:

Vince McMahon grew up in Havelock, North Carolina, with an abusive stepfather and a mean streak wider than a country road. He learned to fight dirty. After years of street brawls and minor crimes, young Vince got shipped off to military school, where he was court-martialed. But somehow he stayed out of jail long enough to run headlong into a game as reckless and raw as he was, a game that was in his blood.
On a trip to visit his real father -a man long divorced from Vince's vivacious, five-times-married moth-the kid got a look at dad's business: pro wrestling, a "sport" that featured snarling men in leotards who pretended to beat the crap out of each other. It was the same sideshow his grandfather had promoted before Vince's father took over, and that boy was hooked in a heartbeat. But his dad told him to find steadier work. "Get a nice government job" said his father. Only after years of waiting and pestering was Vince McMahon allowed to promote a few cards in the backwaters of his father's wrestling circuit.

The rest is a hell of a storyline: Eager young huckster turns regional circuit into national spectacle, body-slams cable competitors, gets famous, expands empire into action figures and restaurants, makes his first billion, rides 150mph motorcycle into sunset.

Except that in this story, nothing is as simple as it seems. In fact, McMahon's road to the top was full of potholes. There was bankruptcy, federal charges that he distributed steroids to wrestlers, a media war with Ted Turner. There was trouble with his marriage to Linda McMahon, the school sweetheart who became his wife and chief executive of the WWF. There was the death of WWF star Owen Hart in a ring accident, and McMahon's decision to let the show go on after Hart's body was whisked away. There was and is the persistent change that McMahon is a cultural boogeyman, a panderer who owes his wealth to bulked-up lugs and their babes, cartoon pimps and their ho trains, the lowest of lowbrow TV.

McMahon answers with a shrug: "That's what the people want".

Is the McMahon of the hour a hero or a villian-- in wrestling talk a face or a heel? What makes him tick people off? And just how good is he in bed? We sent sports talker Kevin Cook to ask.

PLAYBOY: Are you fearless?

MCMAHON: Like I said, I grew up in a very volatile environment. My view was that if I took a beating and lived, I won. I still have that view. It gives me a tremendous advantage, because I'm not afraid of failure. Don't get ne wrong --I hate failing. But I'm not afraid to take chances and fall on my ass, because if I live through it I'll be better off, and I'll win.

PLAYBOY: You had a rough childhood in Havelock, North Carolina, where you grew up in a trailer.

MCMAHON: [Laughs] A new Moon trailer, eight feet wide. Trailer park isn't poverty. You don't have much privacy, but there are nice things about it. Everything is compact, and it beats some other places. Prior to that I lived in Manly, North Carolina, in a house with no in-door plumbing. That could get a little disconcerting in the wintertime,

PLAYBOY: So you're the manly man from Manly" Are those your first memories?

MCMAHON: Yeah, and the summertime wasn't much better, sitting on the privy with the heat and humidity and stench. Oh man, the flies! So when we moved ot the trailer park, it wasn't so bad.

PLAYBOY: You lived with an older brother, your mother and occasional others right?

MCMAHON: My parents got divorced and I went with my mom, Vickie. She was in the church choir. A real performer, a female Elmer Gantry. Very striking, with an excellent voice. Lived with her and my real asshole of a stepfather, a man who enjoyed kicking people around.

PLAYBOY: Your stepfather beat you?

MCMAHON: [Nodding] Leo Lupton. It's unfortunate he died before I could kill him. I would have enjoyed that. Not that he didn't have some redeeming qualities. He was an athlete, great at any sport, which I admired. And I remember watching The Jackie Gleason Show with him. We used to laugh together at Jackie Gleason.

PLAYBOY: Lupton was an electrician. He hit you with tools didn't he? A pipe wrench?

MCMAHON: Sure.

PLAYBOY: He hit your brother, too?

MCMAHON: No, I was the only one of the kids who would speak up, and that's what provoked the attacks. You would think that after being on the receiving end of several attacks I would wisen up, but I couldn't. I refused to. I felt I should say something, even though I knew what the result would be.

PLAYBOY: You fought him when he hit your mother.

MCMAHON: Absolutely, First time I remember, I was six years old. The slightest provocation would set him off. But I lived through it.

PLAYBOY: That's an awful way to learn how a man behaves.

MCMAHON: I learned how not to be. One thing I loathe is a man who will strike a woman. There's never an excuse for that.

PLAYBOY: Eventually, you escaped from your stepfather.

MCMAHON: By the time I was 14 I was on my own. I was pretty much a man then. Physically at least. In other ways I'm still becoming a man.

PLAYBOY: Was the abuse all physical, or was there sexual abuse, too?

MCMAHON: That's not anything I would like to embellish. Just because it was weird.

PLAYBOY: Did it come from the same man?

MCMAHON: No. It wasn't...it wasn't from a male.

PLAYBOY: That's so mysterious. It sounds like a difficult thing for a kid to deal with.

MCMAHON: You know, I'm not big on excuses. When I hear people from the projects, or anywhere else, blame their actions on the way they grew up, I think it's a crock of shit. You can rise above it. This country gives you the opportunity if you want to take it, so don't blame your environment. I look down on people who use their environment as a crutch.

PLAYBOY: Surely it must shape a person.

MCMAHON: No doubt. I don't think we escape our experiences. Things you may think you've pushed to the recesses of your mind, they'll surface at the most inopportune time, when you least expect it. We can use those things, turn them into positives-- change for the better. But they do tend to resurface.

PLAYBOY: We can leave that topic, but one last thing first. You said that the sexual abuse in your childhood "wasn't from the male". It's well known that you're estranged from your mother. Have we found the reason?

MCMAHON: [Pauses, nods] Without saying that, I'd say that's pretty close.

In Part 2, Vince McMahon discusses stealing cars, transporting moonshine and his unruly teenage years. Look for this soon at The Pro-Wrestling Chronicle.

PART 2

The following interview was conducted by Playboy magazine in February of 2001. It offers a rare glimpse at the man beneath the character that drives American wrestling into the future. The following is the second of four parts, in which Vince McMahon discusses his troubled teenaged years.
PLAYBOY: OK, let's take a look at the teenage Vince. You once said that you "majored in badass".

MCMAHON: I was totally unruly. Would not go to school. Did things that were unlawful, but I never got caught.

PLAYBOY: Did you ever steal?

MCMAHON: Automobiles. But I always brought them back. I just borrowed them, really. There were other thefts, too, and I ran a load of moonshine in Harlowe, North Carolina in a 1952 Ford V8. That was a badass car at the time.

PLAYBOY: What did you get paid for running hooch?

MCMAHON: A fortune. I think it was 20 bucks.

PLAYBOY: Finally, the police caught up with you.

MCMAHON: They had a lot of circumstantial evidence. I was always in fights, too. They'd pull up and there we were, me and my group of guys, going at it with the Marines.

PLAYBOY: You fought the Marines?

MCMAHON: Havelock is right outside the Marine base at Cherry Point. There was a place called the Jet Drive-In. Real creative --The Jet, because of all of the military jets at the base. On Friday and Saturday nights it was time to get it on with the Marines. It was a challenge. Most of them were in great condition, but they didn't know how to fight. I'm not saying they were easy pickings. They got their testosterone going and they were all liquored up. Some of them were real tough. But me and my guys were street fighters. I mean, maybe you've been through basic training and you know how to operate a bayonet. That's different from sticking your finger in someone's eye or hitting a guy in the throat, which comes naturally to a street fighter. And they can't believe you're not "fighting fait". Suddenly they can't breathe and/or see, and they realize: "Oh my God, am I in for an ass kicking".

PLAYBOY: Ever come close to killing one of them.

MCMAHON: I would like to think not very close. That's not what I wanted to do. You want to incapacitate a guy. Once you get someone down you don't want him getting back up. You don't want him moving, so you make sure he doesn't. It's not pretty, but it was challenging and fun.

PLAYBOY: Finally the authorities in Havelock gave you a choice--

MCMAHON: Right. It was reform school or military school. I went to Fishburne Military School in Waynesboro, Virginia, in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Military school is expensive. My mom was still my guardian and she couldn't afford it. So my dad was notified and he paid.

PLAYBOY: Your father was a pro wrestling promoter. It was wrestling money that sent you to military school.

MCMAHON: That's right. I would see him in the summertime and on the occasional holiday. That he was able and willing to send me to military school made an impression. It was a chance to start over. Maybe it doesn't seem that I changed, since I was the first cadet in school history to be court-martialed, but I at least started to change. No one really knew me at Fishburne. I had no badass reputation to uphold.

PLAYBOY: So why did they court-martial you?

MCMAHON: For no particular infraction. Again, I was lucky and a little drafty--I wasn't caught for some stuff that would have meant immediate dismissal, like stealing the commandant's car. Colonel Zinneker had an old, green, beat-up Buick, and he always left the keys in it. He also had a dog that he was nuts about. I love animals, but one day I couldn't resist giving the that dog a laxative. I put the laxative in some hamburger and the did his has business all over the commandant's apartment, which thrilled me greatly.

PLAYBOY: What finally got you in trouble?

MCMAHON: Insubordination. I had no respect for the military because they were playing military. Sure, it's an ROTC program, but we weren't in a war. We were a bunch of kids. The idea of this adult from Army ROTC ordering all of the kids around--and getting off on it--ugh! What kind of human being is that? I was insubordinate, but I didn't really have many scrapes at Fishburne. I was playing sports --wrestling and football- and that helped me.

PLAYBOY: What position in football?

MCMAHON: Offensive guard and defensive tackle. But all I really knew how to do was fight. So it was, "Bring it on!". But when you've got bare knuckles and you're hitting a guy with a helmet on, it's no good. I was used to gouging eyes and going for the throat. A big kick in the nuts is always primo--you hear the guy go "Huhhh!" and you think, his ass is mine. But you can't do that on the football field. Football is all about technique, and I was a lousy football player. In one game I was personally penalized more yardage than our offense gained.

PLAYBOY: Still, you beat the court-martial and even graduated. By then you had stolen cars and run moonshine. You'd had a drink. You'd had your first joint. You'd lost your virginity.

MCMAHON: [Pauses] That was at a very young age. I remember, probably in the first grade, being invited to a matinee film with my stepbrother and his girlfriends, and I remember them playing with me. Playing my penis, and giggling. I thought that was pretty cool. That was my initiation into sex. At that age you don't necessarily achieve an erection, but it was cool. At around the same time there was a girl my age who was, in essence, my cousin. Later in life she actually wound up marrying that asshole Leo Lupton, my stepfather! Boy this sounds like Tobacco Road. Anyway, I remember the two of us being so curious about each other's bodies, but not knowing what the hell to do. We would go into the woods and get naked together. It felt good. And for some reason I wanted to put crushed leaves into her. Don't know why, but I remember that. I don't remember the first time I had intercourse, believe it or not.

PLAYBOY: Your growing up was pretty accelerated.

MCMAHON: God, yes.

In Part 3, Vince McMahon discusses the ramifications of not having a father in his life, and getting to know his own and finding a place for himself in the wrestling business.

PART 3

LAYBOY: In your early teens you spent a stint in Washington, D.C. with your father.

MCMAHON: When I was 12 or a little older, living with my grandmother on my mom's side, my father and his mother came to visit. I must have behaved myself, because I got invited up to be with him.

PLAYBOY: You must have been aching for him all that time.

MCMAHON: Didn't know it, though. It's funny how you don't know what you're missing if you never had it. Then when I met my dad, I fell in love with him. We got very, very close, but we both knew we could never go back. There's a tendency to try to play catch-up, but you can't. You missed those years. There would always be something missing between us, but there was no reason to discuss it. I was grateful for the chance to spend time with him.

PLAYBOY: There was a colorful wrestler in his stable, Dr. Jerry Graham.

MCMAHON: Oh, boy. It's 1959 and I'm looking up at Jerry Graham and he's lighting cigars with $100 bills.

PLAYBOY: That's a good story, but nobody would really do it.

MCMAHON: Graham would. He spent more money than anybody I know. He was a 300-pound guy with platinum blond hair and a thick, heavy beard. He wore red pants and a riverboat-gambler shirt. The shirt was either white or red. If it was red, it had white ruffles. If it was white, it had red ruffles. He wore red shoes and rode around Washington in a blood-red 1959 Cadillac, smoking a cigar. He'd run red lights, blowing the horn, and people would scatter. If they didn't get out of his way he'd cut a promo.

PLAYBOY: Cut a promo?

MCMAHON: Yell. Go off on someone verbally. Graham was good at that. My dad wouldn't let me spend an enormous amount of time with him, but I'd sneak away when I could and go riding with the good doctor. Or we'd be at a party--my dad, Jerry and a couple of the other wrestlers. Jerry and his girlfriend would be arguing and pouring drinks over each other. It was sheer entertainment. I was learning that you can be drawn to people for their charisma, but that's not all there is to them. Damn, Jerry, he loved to drink. There was a time when I thought Jerry Graham walked on water, but he could be a mean drunk, and that turned me off.

PLAYBOY: Still, you were dying to follow your father into the wrestling business.

MCMAHON: I loved it from the day I saw it. The characters! But my dad was pragmatic. He remembered the bad years he'd had. He'd say, "Get a government job, so you can have a pension."

PLAYBOY: You wound up at East Carolina University, where you majored in business. What did you learn?

MCMAHON: That I hated economics. Sat in the back row, didn't like the subject. It's about numbers, not people. Wasn't wild about statistics, either.

PLAYBOY: You attended East Carolina with Linda, a church choir girl who followed you there and became your wife. She finished college in three years, but it took you five years. Is she smarter than you are?

MCMAHON: Generally, yes. But it depends on how you define smart. I didn't do well scholastically. Had a grade point average of 2.001. You needed a two-point average to graduate.

PLAYBOY: It came down to your last class?

MCMAHON: I had to go back to a couple of professors to get them to change me from a B plus to an A, or I wouldn't have made it.

PLAYBOY: Why did they agree? Just because you didn't steal their cars?

MCMAHON: I guess they didn't expect a knock on the door from a student who wouldn't take no for an answer. Someone who was saying he's been here five years, and his wife's been here three and she's graduating and she's pregnant. Now they figure this kid has either made up a hell of a story or maybe it's true. Either way, it didn't hurt them to change the grade.

PLAYBOY: It was a great story line.

MCMAHON: I delivered it with lots of conviction, because it was true. Not that I couldn't have delivered it with conviction had it not been true. But the grades got changed and we both graduated.

PLAYBOY: Soon you had a son, Shane, and a job selling adding machines.

MCMAHON: I'm not good with ****ing machines. They have no personality. I went from there to a job selling cups and Sweetheart ice cream cones for the Maryland Cup Corp. in Owings Mills, right outside Baltimore. I would get up early and work a zillion hours, but it wasn't for me. I mean, they want you to talk about the characteristics of the ****ing cup. It's a paper cup with a plastic coating, and it has a certain lip-type thing. They cook it at such and such a temperature. One day there I am, selling this guy on the cup , and he looks at me and says, "Son, you don't really give a damn about that cup." I said, "No, I don't, and thank you very much." That was it for that job.

PLAYBOY: Next you got work crushing rocks. You've claimed you worked 90 hours a week, but that's almost impossible, isn't it?

MCMAHON: No, it's not. Linda will tell you. I drove a huge dump truck at Rockville Crushed Stone, and after a while I got promoted to the pug mill. Linda still teases me for it. A pug mill is where you combine different levels of rock with dirt, and I was made the pug mill operator. Now, that was big time. All this time I'd been pestering my dad to let me work with him: "Come one, Pop. You know I love this stuff." He had a promoter in Bangor, Maine who had been caught stealing. Caught stealing above and beyond the norm, I should say. In those days all the promoters stole. But you can steal too much, and then you're a thief.

PLAYBOY: How much is too much?

MCMAHON: [Laughs] Over about 20 percent and you're a thief. So my dad tells me, "Look, the guy in Bangor, I just threw him the hell out. Go up there. You can't ever say I didn't give you an opportunity, but this is the first and last opportunity you'll have in this company." I went to Bangor, the northernmost outpost of my dad's territory. Now I'm hustling, promoting a product I love. People cheer and boo and have a good time, and I leave with some money in my pocket. Goddamn, life is good! Started making my way south, promoting areas that hadn't been promoted before. First thing you know, half my dad's business is in New England.

PLAYBOY: Pro wrestling had always been regional, but before long you were invading other promoters' turf. You were the guy who was going to make wrestling a national business.

MCMAHON: Right. At tremendous risk.

PLAYBOY: There was a gentleman's agreement: Promoters don't violate each other's territory. In wrestling terminology, what you were doing was sort of a double cross. You got death threats.

MCMAHON: Many times. On the phone and in person. There's a person who still works for us, Jim Ross, who was at a confab in Memphis back then. Ninety percent of the major promoters flew to Memphis for a big meeting. So one day Jim was sitting on the throne in the men's room when a few of the elder guys come in, and they're saying, "How are we going to stop this kid?" Meaning me. They're plotting to do me in. Of course, Jim doesn't want them to know he's there, because he heard them.

PLAYBOY: They were talking about killing you?

MCMAHON: [Nodding.] Murder. They were going to take me out. So Jim, God bless him, in the middle of his defecation he picks up his feet so they can't see him. Here's Jim with his feet up on the throne, thinking, Please don't let them know I'm in here. Sure enough, they walked out, and Jim had no trouble finishing his job after that.

PLAYBOY: Do you think they were serious about murder?

MCMAHON: Some of it was probably bravado from a pseudo tough-guy. Some of it was real. They were the last vestige of the old school, and I wanted to change the whole deal. I had to go national.

PLAYBOY: By 1984 you had achieved it. You were planning the Wrestlemania, the first of those huge national shows. But it was also the time your father was dying.

MCMAHON: Dying of cancer. I went to the hospital and I kissed him. I've always been demonstrative. If I don't like you, I'll tell you. If I love you, male or female, I'll hug you and say I love you. But my dad was old Irish. The old Irish, for some reason I don't understand, they don't show affection. That's not how I live my life. It's certainly not the way that my kids, Shane and Stephanie, were brought up--I don't know how many times a day I tell them I love them. But my dad, no. He never said it. Maybe he would say something complementary about me to somebody else, but not to my face. That time in the hospital, I kissed him and said I loved him. He didn't like to be kissed, but I took advantage of him. Then I started to go. I hadn't quite gotten through the door when I heard him: "I love you, Vinnie!" He didn't just say it, he yelled it.

PLAYBOY: This came after you made your first fortune and promptly went bankrupt. You owned horses, had diversified investments. What happened?

MCMAHON: It was visions of sugarplums. It was, "Look how successful I am! I guess I really am somebody." I got involved with people who weren't that bright and let them tell me that I needed tax shelters. There was a construction company, a horse farm, a cement plant, and it all went belly-up. I felt bad about the bankruptcy. I wanted to pay what I owed, but there were other people involved, and finally the banks wrote it all off.

PLAYBOY: Later you had some trouble with the IRS.

MCMAHON: I have withstood numerous IRS investigations. They've never found anything against me, because there's nothing to find. I've always remembered when my dad fronted money for some people before a light-heavyweight fight. A certain party out of New York couldn't show his money, so my dad fronted the money. Laundered it through his company, so the money could be legitimate.

PLAYBOY: A fixed fight?

MCMAHON: Yes. After that came a grand jury investigation, which my dad withstood. And then, just when he thought he was off the hook, knock, knock! It was the IRS. I can still see my dad during that time, saying, "Goddamn it, if I could just get through this I'd pay every nickel I owe and then some. I just want to be able to sleep at night." I remember the anguish on his face when he said it. So I adopted his philosophy, and I sleep at night. In terms of taxes, anyhow. I'm not wild about sleep.

PLAYBOY: How many hours a night do you sleep?

MCMAHON: About five. It takes me forever to go to sleep. I get frustrated and sweat a lot and think, Damn it, you've got to get up in two hours, you stupid son of a bitch. You've got to be at your best tomorrow. Finally, I learned that if your mind is going to race, you might as well enjoy the ride. Watch the visions. It's a colorful show. I'm also learning that as I get older, my dreams get less violent.

PLAYBOY: Are we talking video game-style violence?

MCMAHON: Not the sort you want to remember. Now they're changing, though. Now they're more typical, R-rated.

PLAYBOY: R for sex or violence?

MCMAHON: Both.

PLAYBOY: About 18 months ago you were in a violent motorcycle crash.

MCMAHON: I'm a guy who gets more out of life than some people--more out of one big breath of fresh air than most people get from breathing in and out for a lifetime. Bungee jumping in Germany went OK, but the last time I rode a motorcycle I ran into an idiot in a Volvo station wagon. It was July 3, 1999. I was on a Boss Hoss, a motorcycle with a Chevy V8 engine. Enormous power. Not enormous speed--I've been on it at 150 miles an hour; it won't go much faster--but great acceleration. Zero to 60 in something like a second and a half. Having that much power between your legs, it's like having a 12-foot penis. But I had a little accident. I was coming down a secondary road, going about 45, when this idiot backed out of a blind driveway. I hit the Volvo and it launched me. It was just a question of how I was going to land. That's when my training in the ring helped me. Up in the air I was conscious of where the ground was, and I made sure I didn't land on my head. It's like taking a back drop or some other wrestling move: You might not hit just right, but you can manage to land pretty flat.

PLAYBOY: You dispersed the impact.

MCMAHON: Right, and again, it's like being in the ring--you don't realize you're hurt at first, because you've got your adrenaline going. You don't know you're hurt until you try to bounce up, and you can't. The bike was uphill from me, gasoline pouring out on me. So I had my motivation: I was going to try not to burn to death. Got up. Walked, kind of. I had broken my tail bone, which wasn't the big problem, because bones heal pretty fast. The big problem was that my pelvis was separated. It felt like I'd given birth to a 20-pound baby. Got out of there, though, and it didn't keep me from working.

PLAYBOY: You've alluded to feeling older in recent years. How's your libido?

MCMAHON: I'm a giver. Whether it's performing in the ring or sexually, that's how I get off. I give. I get off on the number of orgasms a woman has, when I'm the reason she's having them.

PLAYBOY: What's the record?

MCMAHON: [Pauses] You know, you might not be sure when you're younger. She could be like Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally. When you're older, you can generally tell. Not just from sound, but physically.

PLAYBOY: Muscular interaction.

MCMAHON: There you go. You can't fake that. To answer your question...probably six. Which is pretty damn good.

PLAYBOY: How long does that take?

MCMAHON: Over the course of an hour. See, I love women. A woman's body is so complex and so beautiful, and it's not just her body. It's her mind. To be responsible for a woman becoming absolutely without inhibition, surrendering in that way--that's about the coolest thing in the world. I'm not a guy who just appreciates a woman's physicality, either. My wife is chief executive officer of the company not because her last name is McMahon, but because she's the best one for the job. You would think the WWF is a bastion of male domination, but it's not. I am a women's rights advocate. I'm big on equal pay, all that stuff. It's the right thing to do and it's good business.

PLAYBOY: Linda's not the only family member who's in the business. Your son, Shane, and daughter, Stephanie, work on both sides of the camera. Few fans know that Stephanie, who is a major part of the on-air story line, still works behind the scenes, in ad sales.

MCMAHON: If your name is McMahon, you have a day job and a night job. Stephanie's now segueing out of sales into creative. She's going to head up the creative division.

PLAYBOY: Her night job gets rowdy. Is it annoying to hear fans yelling, "Slut!" and "Stephanie swallows!" at her?

MCMAHON: Not at all. You can't think, That's my daughter they're referring to. It's a character. As the father of the person who plays that character, I think she's getting a response. She must be doing a hell of a job. You know what my worry is? That she might get hurt, just as I worry about Shane or any of the performers. They all take big risks out there.

PLAYBOY: Shane came back after getting hurt in a fall at a SummerSlam show, carrying on the family tradition. But there's one story about a time he was scared to death. He was four years old.

MCMAHON: [Grinning] Linda and I have been married for 34 years now, but we're really different. She would always read to the kids at night. I'd make up stories for them, and my stories were full of action. Couldn't help it. They've just had their bath and they smell so good, they're tucked into their little beds and they're so sweet that you just want to eat them. I'd tell them a story, kiss them goodnight, and they would be absolutely wired. Linda would have to calm them down. So Shane was scared one night. He thought Dracula was in the closet. I said, "Oh yeah? Watch this." I went in that closet and started growling and yelling, having a battle. I threw a little furniture. Now Shane's really scared to death, until finally his dad walks out of the closet. I said, "Son, you never have to worry about Dracula again. Dracula's dead."

PLAYBOY: How are you as a husband?

MCMAHON: I tease Linda about the sacrifices I've made for my marriage, but she has made enormous sacrifices. When Linda and I got married, I promised her two things: that I'd always love her and that there would never be a boring moment. I've lived up to both promises. I have always been...loyal.

PLAYBOY: And faithful?

MCMAHON: Not necessarily faithful. I probably lied to myself, thinking she knew who I was when we got married. The wild guy. But I never, ever threw anything in her face. I was discreet. And Linda never suffered from a lack of attention, physical or emotional. But one day she asked me, point-blank, "Are you having an affair with so-and-so?" And I've never lied to her.

"Yes."

It crushed her. Then she asked, "What about such and such?" "

Yes."

It went on. More names. I said, "Yes, yes and yes."

PLAYBOY: Were your affairs at different times or concurrent?

MCMAHON: Different times. Some were concurrent, but I didn't think she had to know that. She didn't ask that question or I'd have to say yes to that, too. It's not something I'm proud of. I just didn't realize the impact of messing with other people's lives. Notwithstanding the impact on my wife, I'm talking about the havoc you create in other lives, just from wanting to have a good time. There's no such thing as an innocent fling. When a woman commits to a sexual encounter, it's generally with a great deal of emotion. With very few exceptions, it's not just, "Let's have sex! Boy, that was great. OK, see you." Women don't do that. So I guess, maybe...I hurt a lot of people. The sex was terrific, but from an emotional standpoint, I regret it.

PLAYBOY: Did you change?

MCMAHON: I learned about the ramifications of a sexual relationship, if you're married. You're touching a lot of lives, mostly negatively. You think, It was just supposed to be sexual. We were supposed to have a great time and be better off. But it's always more complicated than that. It can interfere with your own life, too. Having an affair, running off here and there, can take a lot of energy. It takes a lot of effort, a lot of time. The last five or six years, I've found that I not only appreciate my wife more, but I can get a hell of a lot more done.

PLAYBOY: You don't cheat anymore?

MCMAHON: I have been not only loyal but faithful for about six years. Linda and I have a great marriage, and I don't want to screw it up. I'm not saying I don't look. I'm not saying I won't fall off the wagon one day. I hope not, because of all the complications and because I would have to tell her if she asked me. But other than for the innate id, I don't have a desire to go outside our relationship.

And if I'm on the road for more than three days, you know I'm flying afterward to where Linda is.

PLAYBOY: You're always on the move. Were you hyperactive as a kid?

MCMAHON: Maybe. When Shane had alleged learning disabilities in high school, we put him on Ritalin. When I was in school there was no Ritalin. Attention deficit disorder hadn't been discovered, so I was just a bad kid.

PLAYBOY: A little Ritalin in 1960 might have changed the course of American entertainment.

MCMAHON: [Laughing] That's one drug I've escaped. Maybe I had learning disabilites, or maybe I was just starved for attention, striving to be liked.

PLAYBOY: Your wrestlers have been getting more attention lately. A couple of years ago Ted Turner, Time Warner, and their World Championship Wrestling beat your WWF

in the ratings for 88 weeks in a row. Now you kill them week after week. How fun is it to body-slam Turner like that?

MCMAHON: What happened was that the superstars we created got bought off by Ted Turner. When their WWF contracts came up, Ted opened his checkbook and paid them up to 10 times what we were paying. I had a fraternal, we're-brothers relationship with our stars, guys like Hulk Hogan, and I never thought they would leave. They gave me every personal assurance that they wouldn't. But exorbitant money can change minds. It's not easy competing with a billionaire and Time Warner. Still, we knew we could create new stars, and this time around we'd keep them, knowing that the guys Ted bought would get old quickly. Looking back, yes, there was a brief time when the superstars Ted purchased almost in bulk and the promotional machine he owned--CNN, TBS, TNT, the NBA package, the NFL package, which he had for a while--all combined to put him ahead. But how far ahead? An average of 20 percent, of a the most 25. It's not hte crushing situation you see now, when we have new stars and their superstars are old and jaded and don't want to work. As my dad would say, the wrinkles are out of their bellies. They're no longer hungry. At Time Warner, they don't understand the creative process. They have never been able to create stars, but Ted buys things. He's always been like that. By the way, he has tried to buy the WWF on many occasions.

PLAYBOY: What's the prognosis for Turner's WCW?

MCMAHON: I understand it's for sale.

PLAYBOY: You interested?

MCMAHON: Possibly.

PLAYBOY: Now that you're on top, has the WWF been getting a little less raunchy?

MCMAHON: On balance, we've never been raunchy. I'd say we are certainly more mainstream than we were several years ago, and we have pushed the envelope too far a few times. A couple years ago we did that with a character called Sexual Chocolate. It was an S&M parody in which Sexual Chocolate was surprised to learn the person gratifying him was a male. Some of the audience got it as humor, but some felt like, How do I explain this to my young son or daughter? So maybe we pushed it too far. There was no reason to go there. But there will always be sexuality in the product. We're a variety show, soap opera, rock concert, action-adventure with a little Comedy Central thrown in and with charismatic world-class athletes performing their feats in the ring. There has never been anything quite like this, and you can't copy it. It can't be copied because there's no formula. It's living and breathing.

PLAYBOY: Some of your critics say it's disgusting. Phil Mushnick of the New York Post calls you a pornographer.

MCMAHON: Look, we have a huge demo. Fifteen percent of our prime-time audience is 12 and under. Fifteen percent is 12 to 18. That's 30 percent who are 19 and under, while 70 percent is your older audience. Who do you write for? Remember we're part of the cable universe, where you've got The Sopranos, Sex and the City. Compared with a lot of what's on cable, the WWF actually leans to the conservative side. Phil Mushnick? He's so right-wing that everybody laughs at him. Even in the New York Post recently, there was only one pro-Mushnick letter. All the rest were pro-WWF, saying, "Phil, grow up. Who the hell are you to view the WWF the way you do in this day and age?" Jerk. Phil writes his opinion, but he never calls us before he writes. He's been invited up here. Won't come, won't meet me anywhere. Hello, Phil? Wake up! It's the real world!

PLAYBOY: Your shows feature talk about "puppies" and "tits."

MCMAHON: We don't say "tits." We use "puppies," a cute term for breasts. It's not meant to be derogatory. I'd say "tits" is vulgar, but "puppies" is cute terminology.

PLAYBOY: But the fans yell about tits. And the signs fans hold up at your Monday night show, Raw Is War, aren't just about puppies.

MCMAHON: If we see a sign that's objectionable or obscene, we'll take it away. We're scanning the crowd, but sometimes there are 20,000 people there. You might see some signs that should not be there, especially on the live show Monday night. As much as I appreciate freedom of expression, we will ask the person not to display that sign. If he displays it anyway, we'll say, "You know what? We're going to bribe you now. Would you like to have this Stone Cold T-shirt for free? Give me that ****ing sign." Generally it works.

PLAYBOY: Last year you were charged with hypocrisy for refusing to allow ads for the documentary Beyond the Mat to run during WWF broadcasts. How do you explain that?

MCMAHON: As a business decision. You want to know what happened? Ron Howard is one of my neighbors. Not that I know Ron well, but he called me and said, "Vince, I'd like you to meet this guy. He wants to do a documentary." That's how I heard about Barry Blaustein. I figured it would be a great positive. But when Linda and I went to a private screening, we found out it's so bad. It's the underbelly of the wrestling business in the early Eighties. You've got Jake the Snake off doing blow, and the movie winds up with one of our characters, Mick Foley--Mankind--bleeding everywhere. I think it was a Royal Rumble event in Anaheim. Foley's kids are in the audience, along with his wife, and the camera's on them. Now, Mick's wife has seen him in a lot worse condition, but here she is screaming so much that the kids--who shouldn't have been there for this--are reacting to her hysterical screams. It turned me off so badly. I'm thinking, Barry, you and I have completely different visions of the business.

In the early Eighties, and certianly before then, it was viewed as a six-pack and a blow job. But today's performer is more sophisticated, educated. He's on the Internet after his match, or playing video games. Or he wants to watch tape to study his performance. He does not go to the bar. So few of our performers even drink, much less do drugs and other things that were once run-of-the-mill. So to see Mick and his kids and his wife in that movie was a real downer.

Even before that screening, I had told Barry and his backers, "You're using our characters, our trademarks. But none of our performers got paid. You're not paying the company. Let us buy in--I'll pay half the production costs." We were denied. I told them, "Look, you know we control all the advertising in our vehicles." We have for years, because we didn't want Turner or anyone else capitalizing on our hard work. We can't control Ford or Chevy, but we control the wrestling genre. So I'm trying the strongarm Barry and his studio. I tell them, "If you don't let us in, you won't have access to our vehicle." I guess they didn't believe me. Ron Howard said, "You know, Vince, sometimes out there in Hollywood you make bad deals, and you have to live with them." But this wasn't one I had to live with. And my decision wasn't an editorial one, even though I didn't like that movie. There's plenty of stuff we do that I'm not in love with, but the audience likes it. So this wasn't censorship. It was financial. It was, "You guys didn't let us in, even when I was willing to buy our way in, so **** you. You raped me once, you don't get the privilege of raping me twice. **** you. You can't advertise inside our vehicle.

PLAYBOY: Tell us about fear. You're not afraid of Ted Turner or Dracula. What scares you?

MCMAHON: I was scared of the United States government when I pissed off the Justice Department and they trampled on my rights. They accused me of something that I didn't do.

PLAYBOY: You were charged with conspiring to distribute steroids. You originally faced six charges but were ultimately cleared of all of them.

MCMAHON: And they were the one who had been coming to me with a plea bargain! It's supposed to work the other way--the accused goes to the government. But they came to me, and I said, "**** you." Those were my exact words. I tried to call Attorney General Janet Reno but never got through, which is probably a good thing.

PLAYBOY: Have you worked out any plans to hand over the reins of the WWF to Shane and Stephanie?

MCMAHON: Depends on what you mean by the reins. We'll be doing films, music--there's a lot to keep me busy, like this little thing called the XFL. But if I bust tonight, Shane and Stephanie and Linda will make sure the business goes on.

PLAYBOY:When you do step aside, will you write a death scene for you alter ego, the evil Mr. McMahon?

MCMAHON: A death scene? No, that wouldn't be reality. Unless...you know what? I believe in the laws of nature. When it's time for me to go, I would like to be devoured by the biggest, baddest carnivore that ever walked the face of the earth. And then I'd like that son of a bitch to get indigestion and vomit my remains back up.

PLAYBOY: A romantic finish.

MCMAHON: Yep.

PLAYBOY: And you know what you'd get----

MCMAHON: Great ratings.

[Ringo]

Here:


The following interview was conducted by Playboy magazine in February of 2001. It offers a rare glimpse at the man beneath the character that drives American wrestling into the future. The following is the first of four parts, in which McMahon discusses growing up in a trailer park and enduring physical and sexual abuse at the hands of his mother and stepfather:

Vince McMahon grew up in Havelock, North Carolina, with an abusive stepfather and a mean streak wider than a country road. He learned to fight dirty. After years of street brawls and minor crimes, young Vince got shipped off to military school, where he was court-martialed. But somehow he stayed out of jail long enough to run headlong into a game as reckless and raw as he was, a game that was in his blood.
On a trip to visit his real father -a man long divorced from Vince's vivacious, five-times-married moth-the kid got a look at dad's business: pro wrestling, a "sport" that featured snarling men in leotards who pretended to beat the crap out of each other. It was the same sideshow his grandfather had promoted before Vince's father took over, and that boy was hooked in a heartbeat. But his dad told him to find steadier work. "Get a nice government job" said his father. Only after years of waiting and pestering was Vince McMahon allowed to promote a few cards in the backwaters of his father's wrestling circuit.

The rest is a hell of a storyline: Eager young huckster turns regional circuit into national spectacle, body-slams cable competitors, gets famous, expands empire into action figures and restaurants, makes his first billion, rides 150mph motorcycle into sunset.

Except that in this story, nothing is as simple as it seems. In fact, McMahon's road to the top was full of potholes. There was bankruptcy, federal charges that he distributed steroids to wrestlers, a media war with Ted Turner. There was trouble with his marriage to Linda McMahon, the school sweetheart who became his wife and chief executive of the WWF. There was the death of WWF star Owen Hart in a ring accident, and McMahon's decision to let the show go on after Hart's body was whisked away. There was and is the persistent change that McMahon is a cultural boogeyman, a panderer who owes his wealth to bulked-up lugs and their babes, cartoon pimps and their ho trains, the lowest of lowbrow TV.

McMahon answers with a shrug: "That's what the people want".

Is the McMahon of the hour a hero or a villian-- in wrestling talk a face or a heel? What makes him tick people off? And just how good is he in bed? We sent sports talker Kevin Cook to ask.

PLAYBOY: Are you fearless?

MCMAHON: Like I said, I grew up in a very volatile environment. My view was that if I took a beating and lived, I won. I still have that view. It gives me a tremendous advantage, because I'm not afraid of failure. Don't get ne wrong --I hate failing. But I'm not afraid to take chances and fall on my ass, because if I live through it I'll be better off, and I'll win.

PLAYBOY: You had a rough childhood in Havelock, North Carolina, where you grew up in a trailer.

MCMAHON: [Laughs] A new Moon trailer, eight feet wide. Trailer park isn't poverty. You don't have much privacy, but there are nice things about it. Everything is compact, and it beats some other places. Prior to that I lived in Manly, North Carolina, in a house with no in-door plumbing. That could get a little disconcerting in the wintertime,

PLAYBOY: So you're the manly man from Manly" Are those your first memories?

MCMAHON: Yeah, and the summertime wasn't much better, sitting on the privy with the heat and humidity and stench. Oh man, the flies! So when we moved ot the trailer park, it wasn't so bad.

PLAYBOY: You lived with an older brother, your mother and occasional others right?

MCMAHON: My parents got divorced and I went with my mom, Vickie. She was in the church choir. A real performer, a female Elmer Gantry. Very striking, with an excellent voice. Lived with her and my real asshole of a stepfather, a man who enjoyed kicking people around.

PLAYBOY: Your stepfather beat you?

MCMAHON: [Nodding] Leo Lupton. It's unfortunate he died before I could kill him. I would have enjoyed that. Not that he didn't have some redeeming qualities. He was an athlete, great at any sport, which I admired. And I remember watching The Jackie Gleason Show with him. We used to laugh together at Jackie Gleason.

PLAYBOY: Lupton was an electrician. He hit you with tools didn't he? A pipe wrench?

MCMAHON: Sure.

PLAYBOY: He hit your brother, too?

MCMAHON: No, I was the only one of the kids who would speak up, and that's what provoked the attacks. You would think that after being on the receiving end of several attacks I would wisen up, but I couldn't. I refused to. I felt I should say something, even though I knew what the result would be.

PLAYBOY: You fought him when he hit your mother.

MCMAHON: Absolutely, First time I remember, I was six years old. The slightest provocation would set him off. But I lived through it.

PLAYBOY: That's an awful way to learn how a man behaves.

MCMAHON: I learned how not to be. One thing I loathe is a man who will strike a woman. There's never an excuse for that.

PLAYBOY: Eventually, you escaped from your stepfather.

MCMAHON: By the time I was 14 I was on my own. I was pretty much a man then. Physically at least. In other ways I'm still becoming a man.

PLAYBOY: Was the abuse all physical, or was there sexual abuse, too?

MCMAHON: That's not anything I would like to embellish. Just because it was weird.

PLAYBOY: Did it come from the same man?

MCMAHON: No. It wasn't...it wasn't from a male.

PLAYBOY: That's so mysterious. It sounds like a difficult thing for a kid to deal with.

MCMAHON: You know, I'm not big on excuses. When I hear people from the projects, or anywhere else, blame their actions on the way they grew up, I think it's a crock of shit. You can rise above it. This country gives you the opportunity if you want to take it, so don't blame your environment. I look down on people who use their environment as a crutch.

PLAYBOY: Surely it must shape a person.

MCMAHON: No doubt. I don't think we escape our experiences. Things you may think you've pushed to the recesses of your mind, they'll surface at the most inopportune time, when you least expect it. We can use those things, turn them into positives-- change for the better. But they do tend to resurface.

PLAYBOY: We can leave that topic, but one last thing first. You said that the sexual abuse in your childhood "wasn't from the male". It's well known that you're estranged from your mother. Have we found the reason?

MCMAHON: [Pauses, nods] Without saying that, I'd say that's pretty close.

In Part 2, Vince McMahon discusses stealing cars, transporting moonshine and his unruly teenage years. Look for this soon at The Pro-Wrestling Chronicle.

PART 2

The following interview was conducted by Playboy magazine in February of 2001. It offers a rare glimpse at the man beneath the character that drives American wrestling into the future. The following is the second of four parts, in which Vince McMahon discusses his troubled teenaged years.
PLAYBOY: OK, let's take a look at the teenage Vince. You once said that you "majored in badass".

MCMAHON: I was totally unruly. Would not go to school. Did things that were unlawful, but I never got caught.

PLAYBOY: Did you ever steal?

MCMAHON: Automobiles. But I always brought them back. I just borrowed them, really. There were other thefts, too, and I ran a load of moonshine in Harlowe, North Carolina in a 1952 Ford V8. That was a badass car at the time.

PLAYBOY: What did you get paid for running hooch?

MCMAHON: A fortune. I think it was 20 bucks.

PLAYBOY: Finally, the police caught up with you.

MCMAHON: They had a lot of circumstantial evidence. I was always in fights, too. They'd pull up and there we were, me and my group of guys, going at it with the Marines.

PLAYBOY: You fought the Marines?

MCMAHON: Havelock is right outside the Marine base at Cherry Point. There was a place called the Jet Drive-In. Real creative --The Jet, because of all of the military jets at the base. On Friday and Saturday nights it was time to get it on with the Marines. It was a challenge. Most of them were in great condition, but they didn't know how to fight. I'm not saying they were easy pickings. They got their testosterone going and they were all liquored up. Some of them were real tough. But me and my guys were street fighters. I mean, maybe you've been through basic training and you know how to operate a bayonet. That's different from sticking your finger in someone's eye or hitting a guy in the throat, which comes naturally to a street fighter. And they can't believe you're not "fighting fait". Suddenly they can't breathe and/or see, and they realize: "Oh my God, am I in for an ass kicking".

PLAYBOY: Ever come close to killing one of them.

MCMAHON: I would like to think not very close. That's not what I wanted to do. You want to incapacitate a guy. Once you get someone down you don't want him getting back up. You don't want him moving, so you make sure he doesn't. It's not pretty, but it was challenging and fun.

PLAYBOY: Finally the authorities in Havelock gave you a choice--

MCMAHON: Right. It was reform school or military school. I went to Fishburne Military School in Waynesboro, Virginia, in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Military school is expensive. My mom was still my guardian and she couldn't afford it. So my dad was notified and he paid.

PLAYBOY: Your father was a pro wrestling promoter. It was wrestling money that sent you to military school.

MCMAHON: That's right. I would see him in the summertime and on the occasional holiday. That he was able and willing to send me to military school made an impression. It was a chance to start over. Maybe it doesn't seem that I changed, since I was the first cadet in school history to be court-martialed, but I at least started to change. No one really knew me at Fishburne. I had no badass reputation to uphold.

PLAYBOY: So why did they court-martial you?

MCMAHON: For no particular infraction. Again, I was lucky and a little drafty--I wasn't caught for some stuff that would have meant immediate dismissal, like stealing the commandant's car. Colonel Zinneker had an old, green, beat-up Buick, and he always left the keys in it. He also had a dog that he was nuts about. I love animals, but one day I couldn't resist giving the that dog a laxative. I put the laxative in some hamburger and the did his has business all over the commandant's apartment, which thrilled me greatly.

PLAYBOY: What finally got you in trouble?

MCMAHON: Insubordination. I had no respect for the military because they were playing military. Sure, it's an ROTC program, but we weren't in a war. We were a bunch of kids. The idea of this adult from Army ROTC ordering all of the kids around--and getting off on it--ugh! What kind of human being is that? I was insubordinate, but I didn't really have many scrapes at Fishburne. I was playing sports --wrestling and football- and that helped me.

PLAYBOY: What position in football?

MCMAHON: Offensive guard and defensive tackle. But all I really knew how to do was fight. So it was, "Bring it on!". But when you've got bare knuckles and you're hitting a guy with a helmet on, it's no good. I was used to gouging eyes and going for the throat. A big kick in the nuts is always primo--you hear the guy go "Huhhh!" and you think, his ass is mine. But you can't do that on the football field. Football is all about technique, and I was a lousy football player. In one game I was personally penalized more yardage than our offense gained.

PLAYBOY: Still, you beat the court-martial and even graduated. By then you had stolen cars and run moonshine. You'd had a drink. You'd had your first joint. You'd lost your virginity.

MCMAHON: [Pauses] That was at a very young age. I remember, probably in the first grade, being invited to a matinee film with my stepbrother and his girlfriends, and I remember them playing with me. Playing my penis, and giggling. I thought that was pretty cool. That was my initiation into sex. At that age you don't necessarily achieve an erection, but it was cool. At around the same time there was a girl my age who was, in essence, my cousin. Later in life she actually wound up marrying that asshole Leo Lupton, my stepfather! Boy this sounds like Tobacco Road. Anyway, I remember the two of us being so curious about each other's bodies, but not knowing what the hell to do. We would go into the woods and get naked together. It felt good. And for some reason I wanted to put crushed leaves into her. Don't know why, but I remember that. I don't remember the first time I had intercourse, believe it or not.

PLAYBOY: Your growing up was pretty accelerated.

MCMAHON: God, yes.

In Part 3, Vince McMahon discusses the ramifications of not having a father in his life, and getting to know his own and finding a place for himself in the wrestling business.

PART 3

LAYBOY: In your early teens you spent a stint in Washington, D.C. with your father.

MCMAHON: When I was 12 or a little older, living with my grandmother on my mom's side, my father and his mother came to visit. I must have behaved myself, because I got invited up to be with him.

PLAYBOY: You must have been aching for him all that time.

MCMAHON: Didn't know it, though. It's funny how you don't know what you're missing if you never had it. Then when I met my dad, I fell in love with him. We got very, very close, but we both knew we could never go back. There's a tendency to try to play catch-up, but you can't. You missed those years. There would always be something missing between us, but there was no reason to discuss it. I was grateful for the chance to spend time with him.

PLAYBOY: There was a colorful wrestler in his stable, Dr. Jerry Graham.

MCMAHON: Oh, boy. It's 1959 and I'm looking up at Jerry Graham and he's lighting cigars with $100 bills.

PLAYBOY: That's a good story, but nobody would really do it.

MCMAHON: Graham would. He spent more money than anybody I know. He was a 300-pound guy with platinum blond hair and a thick, heavy beard. He wore red pants and a riverboat-gambler shirt. The shirt was either white or red. If it was red, it had white ruffles. If it was white, it had red ruffles. He wore red shoes and rode around Washington in a blood-red 1959 Cadillac, smoking a cigar. He'd run red lights, blowing the horn, and people would scatter. If they didn't get out of his way he'd cut a promo.

PLAYBOY: Cut a promo?

MCMAHON: Yell. Go off on someone verbally. Graham was good at that. My dad wouldn't let me spend an enormous amount of time with him, but I'd sneak away when I could and go riding with the good doctor. Or we'd be at a party--my dad, Jerry and a couple of the other wrestlers. Jerry and his girlfriend would be arguing and pouring drinks over each other. It was sheer entertainment. I was learning that you can be drawn to people for their charisma, but that's not all there is to them. Damn, Jerry, he loved to drink. There was a time when I thought Jerry Graham walked on water, but he could be a mean drunk, and that turned me off.

PLAYBOY: Still, you were dying to follow your father into the wrestling business.

MCMAHON: I loved it from the day I saw it. The characters! But my dad was pragmatic. He remembered the bad years he'd had. He'd say, "Get a government job, so you can have a pension."

PLAYBOY: You wound up at East Carolina University, where you majored in business. What did you learn?

MCMAHON: That I hated economics. Sat in the back row, didn't like the subject. It's about numbers, not people. Wasn't wild about statistics, either.

PLAYBOY: You attended East Carolina with Linda, a church choir girl who followed you there and became your wife. She finished college in three years, but it took you five years. Is she smarter than you are?

MCMAHON: Generally, yes. But it depends on how you define smart. I didn't do well scholastically. Had a grade point average of 2.001. You needed a two-point average to graduate.

PLAYBOY: It came down to your last class?

MCMAHON: I had to go back to a couple of professors to get them to change me from a B plus to an A, or I wouldn't have made it.

PLAYBOY: Why did they agree? Just because you didn't steal their cars?

MCMAHON: I guess they didn't expect a knock on the door from a student who wouldn't take no for an answer. Someone who was saying he's been here five years, and his wife's been here three and she's graduating and she's pregnant. Now they figure this kid has either made up a hell of a story or maybe it's true. Either way, it didn't hurt them to change the grade.

PLAYBOY: It was a great story line.

MCMAHON: I delivered it with lots of conviction, because it was true. Not that I couldn't have delivered it with conviction had it not been true. But the grades got changed and we both graduated.

PLAYBOY: Soon you had a son, Shane, and a job selling adding machines.

MCMAHON: I'm not good with ****ing machines. They have no personality. I went from there to a job selling cups and Sweetheart ice cream cones for the Maryland Cup Corp. in Owings Mills, right outside Baltimore. I would get up early and work a zillion hours, but it wasn't for me. I mean, they want you to talk about the characteristics of the ****ing cup. It's a paper cup with a plastic coating, and it has a certain lip-type thing. They cook it at such and such a temperature. One day there I am, selling this guy on the cup , and he looks at me and says, "Son, you don't really give a damn about that cup." I said, "No, I don't, and thank you very much." That was it for that job.

PLAYBOY: Next you got work crushing rocks. You've claimed you worked 90 hours a week, but that's almost impossible, isn't it?

MCMAHON: No, it's not. Linda will tell you. I drove a huge dump truck at Rockville Crushed Stone, and after a while I got promoted to the pug mill. Linda still teases me for it. A pug mill is where you combine different levels of rock with dirt, and I was made the pug mill operator. Now, that was big time. All this time I'd been pestering my dad to let me work with him: "Come one, Pop. You know I love this stuff." He had a promoter in Bangor, Maine who had been caught stealing. Caught stealing above and beyond the norm, I should say. In those days all the promoters stole. But you can steal too much, and then you're a thief.

PLAYBOY: How much is too much?

MCMAHON: [Laughs] Over about 20 percent and you're a thief. So my dad tells me, "Look, the guy in Bangor, I just threw him the hell out. Go up there. You can't ever say I didn't give you an opportunity, but this is the first and last opportunity you'll have in this company." I went to Bangor, the northernmost outpost of my dad's territory. Now I'm hustling, promoting a product I love. People cheer and boo and have a good time, and I leave with some money in my pocket. Goddamn, life is good! Started making my way south, promoting areas that hadn't been promoted before. First thing you know, half my dad's business is in New England.

PLAYBOY: Pro wrestling had always been regional, but before long you were invading other promoters' turf. You were the guy who was going to make wrestling a national business.

MCMAHON: Right. At tremendous risk.

PLAYBOY: There was a gentleman's agreement: Promoters don't violate each other's territory. In wrestling terminology, what you were doing was sort of a double cross. You got death threats.

MCMAHON: Many times. On the phone and in person. There's a person who still works for us, Jim Ross, who was at a confab in Memphis back then. Ninety percent of the major promoters flew to Memphis for a big meeting. So one day Jim was sitting on the throne in the men's room when a few of the elder guys come in, and they're saying, "How are we going to stop this kid?" Meaning me. They're plotting to do me in. Of course, Jim doesn't want them to know he's there, because he heard them.

PLAYBOY: They were talking about killing you?

MCMAHON: [Nodding.] Murder. They were going to take me out. So Jim, God bless him, in the middle of his defecation he picks up his feet so they can't see him. Here's Jim with his feet up on the throne, thinking, Please don't let them know I'm in here. Sure enough, they walked out, and Jim had no trouble finishing his job after that.

PLAYBOY: Do you think they were serious about murder?

MCMAHON: Some of it was probably bravado from a pseudo tough-guy. Some of it was real. They were the last vestige of the old school, and I wanted to change the whole deal. I had to go national.

PLAYBOY: By 1984 you had achieved it. You were planning the Wrestlemania, the first of those huge national shows. But it was also the time your father was dying.

MCMAHON: Dying of cancer. I went to the hospital and I kissed him. I've always been demonstrative. If I don't like you, I'll tell you. If I love you, male or female, I'll hug you and say I love you. But my dad was old Irish. The old Irish, for some reason I don't understand, they don't show affection. That's not how I live my life. It's certainly not the way that my kids, Shane and Stephanie, were brought up--I don't know how many times a day I tell them I love them. But my dad, no. He never said it. Maybe he would say something complementary about me to somebody else, but not to my face. That time in the hospital, I kissed him and said I loved him. He didn't like to be kissed, but I took advantage of him. Then I started to go. I hadn't quite gotten through the door when I heard him: "I love you, Vinnie!" He didn't just say it, he yelled it.

PLAYBOY: This came after you made your first fortune and promptly went bankrupt. You owned horses, had diversified investments. What happened?

MCMAHON: It was visions of sugarplums. It was, "Look how successful I am! I guess I really am somebody." I got involved with people who weren't that bright and let them tell me that I needed tax shelters. There was a construction company, a horse farm, a cement plant, and it all went belly-up. I felt bad about the bankruptcy. I wanted to pay what I owed, but there were other people involved, and finally the banks wrote it all off.

PLAYBOY: Later you had some trouble with the IRS.

MCMAHON: I have withstood numerous IRS investigations. They've never found anything against me, because there's nothing to find. I've always remembered when my dad fronted money for some people before a light-heavyweight fight. A certain party out of New York couldn't show his money, so my dad fronted the money. Laundered it through his company, so the money could be legitimate.

PLAYBOY: A fixed fight?

MCMAHON: Yes. After that came a grand jury investigation, which my dad withstood. And then, just when he thought he was off the hook, knock, knock! It was the IRS. I can still see my dad during that time, saying, "Goddamn it, if I could just get through this I'd pay every nickel I owe and then some. I just want to be able to sleep at night." I remember the anguish on his face when he said it. So I adopted his philosophy, and I sleep at night. In terms of taxes, anyhow. I'm not wild about sleep.

PLAYBOY: How many hours a night do you sleep?

MCMAHON: About five. It takes me forever to go to sleep. I get frustrated and sweat a lot and think, Damn it, you've got to get up in two hours, you stupid son of a bitch. You've got to be at your best tomorrow. Finally, I learned that if your mind is going to race, you might as well enjoy the ride. Watch the visions. It's a colorful show. I'm also learning that as I get older, my dreams get less violent.

PLAYBOY: Are we talking video game-style violence?

MCMAHON: Not the sort you want to remember. Now they're changing, though. Now they're more typical, R-rated.

PLAYBOY: R for sex or violence?

MCMAHON: Both.

PLAYBOY: About 18 months ago you were in a violent motorcycle crash.

MCMAHON: I'm a guy who gets more out of life than some people--more out of one big breath of fresh air than most people get from breathing in and out for a lifetime. Bungee jumping in Germany went OK, but the last time I rode a motorcycle I ran into an idiot in a Volvo station wagon. It was July 3, 1999. I was on a Boss Hoss, a motorcycle with a Chevy V8 engine. Enormous power. Not enormous speed--I've been on it at 150 miles an hour; it won't go much faster--but great acceleration. Zero to 60 in something like a second and a half. Having that much power between your legs, it's like having a 12-foot penis. But I had a little accident. I was coming down a secondary road, going about 45, when this idiot backed out of a blind driveway. I hit the Volvo and it launched me. It was just a question of how I was going to land. That's when my training in the ring helped me. Up in the air I was conscious of where the ground was, and I made sure I didn't land on my head. It's like taking a back drop or some other wrestling move: You might not hit just right, but you can manage to land pretty flat.

PLAYBOY: You dispersed the impact.

MCMAHON: Right, and again, it's like being in the ring--you don't realize you're hurt at first, because you've got your adrenaline going. You don't know you're hurt until you try to bounce up, and you can't. The bike was uphill from me, gasoline pouring out on me. So I had my motivation: I was going to try not to burn to death. Got up. Walked, kind of. I had broken my tail bone, which wasn't the big problem, because bones heal pretty fast. The big problem was that my pelvis was separated. It felt like I'd given birth to a 20-pound baby. Got out of there, though, and it didn't keep me from working.

PLAYBOY: You've alluded to feeling older in recent years. How's your libido?

MCMAHON: I'm a giver. Whether it's performing in the ring or sexually, that's how I get off. I give. I get off on the number of orgasms a woman has, when I'm the reason she's having them.

PLAYBOY: What's the record?

MCMAHON: [Pauses] You know, you might not be sure when you're younger. She could be like Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally. When you're older, you can generally tell. Not just from sound, but physically.

PLAYBOY: Muscular interaction.

MCMAHON: There you go. You can't fake that. To answer your question...probably six. Which is pretty damn good.

PLAYBOY: How long does that take?

MCMAHON: Over the course of an hour. See, I love women. A woman's body is so complex and so beautiful, and it's not just her body. It's her mind. To be responsible for a woman becoming absolutely without inhibition, surrendering in that way--that's about the coolest thing in the world. I'm not a guy who just appreciates a woman's physicality, either. My wife is chief executive officer of the company not because her last name is McMahon, but because she's the best one for the job. You would think the WWF is a bastion of male domination, but it's not. I am a women's rights advocate. I'm big on equal pay, all that stuff. It's the right thing to do and it's good business.

PLAYBOY: Linda's not the only family member who's in the business. Your son, Shane, and daughter, Stephanie, work on both sides of the camera. Few fans know that Stephanie, who is a major part of the on-air story line, still works behind the scenes, in ad sales.

MCMAHON: If your name is McMahon, you have a day job and a night job. Stephanie's now segueing out of sales into creative. She's going to head up the creative division.

PLAYBOY: Her night job gets rowdy. Is it annoying to hear fans yelling, "Slut!" and "Stephanie swallows!" at her?

MCMAHON: Not at all. You can't think, That's my daughter they're referring to. It's a character. As the father of the person who plays that character, I think she's getting a response. She must be doing a hell of a job. You know what my worry is? That she might get hurt, just as I worry about Shane or any of the performers. They all take big risks out there.

PLAYBOY: Shane came back after getting hurt in a fall at a SummerSlam show, carrying on the family tradition. But there's one story about a time he was scared to death. He was four years old.

MCMAHON: [Grinning] Linda and I have been married for 34 years now, but we're really different. She would always read to the kids at night. I'd make up stories for them, and my stories were full of action. Couldn't help it. They've just had their bath and they smell so good, they're tucked into their little beds and they're so sweet that you just want to eat them. I'd tell them a story, kiss them goodnight, and they would be absolutely wired. Linda would have to calm them down. So Shane was scared one night. He thought Dracula was in the closet. I said, "Oh yeah? Watch this." I went in that closet and started growling and yelling, having a battle. I threw a little furniture. Now Shane's really scared to death, until finally his dad walks out of the closet. I said, "Son, you never have to worry about Dracula again. Dracula's dead."

PLAYBOY: How are you as a husband?

MCMAHON: I tease Linda about the sacrifices I've made for my marriage, but she has made enormous sacrifices. When Linda and I got married, I promised her two things: that I'd always love her and that there would never be a boring moment. I've lived up to both promises. I have always been...loyal.

PLAYBOY: And faithful?

MCMAHON: Not necessarily faithful. I probably lied to myself, thinking she knew who I was when we got married. The wild guy. But I never, ever threw anything in her face. I was discreet. And Linda never suffered from a lack of attention, physical or emotional. But one day she asked me, point-blank, "Are you having an affair with so-and-so?" And I've never lied to her.

"Yes."

It crushed her. Then she asked, "What about such and such?" "

Yes."

It went on. More names. I said, "Yes, yes and yes."

PLAYBOY: Were your affairs at different times or concurrent?

MCMAHON: Different times. Some were concurrent, but I didn't think she had to know that. She didn't ask that question or I'd have to say yes to that, too. It's not something I'm proud of. I just didn't realize the impact of messing with other people's lives. Notwithstanding the impact on my wife, I'm talking about the havoc you create in other lives, just from wanting to have a good time. There's no such thing as an innocent fling. When a woman commits to a sexual encounter, it's generally with a great deal of emotion. With very few exceptions, it's not just, "Let's have sex! Boy, that was great. OK, see you." Women don't do that. So I guess, maybe...I hurt a lot of people. The sex was terrific, but from an emotional standpoint, I regret it.

PLAYBOY: Did you change?

MCMAHON: I learned about the ramifications of a sexual relationship, if you're married. You're touching a lot of lives, mostly negatively. You think, It was just supposed to be sexual. We were supposed to have a great time and be better off. But it's always more complicated than that. It can interfere with your own life, too. Having an affair, running off here and there, can take a lot of energy. It takes a lot of effort, a lot of time. The last five or six years, I've found that I not only appreciate my wife more, but I can get a hell of a lot more done.

PLAYBOY: You don't cheat anymore?

MCMAHON: I have been not only loyal but faithful for about six years. Linda and I have a great marriage, and I don't want to screw it up. I'm not saying I don't look. I'm not saying I won't fall off the wagon one day. I hope not, because of all the complications and because I would have to tell her if she asked me. But other than for the innate id, I don't have a desire to go outside our relationship.

And if I'm on the road for more than three days, you know I'm flying afterward to where Linda is.

PLAYBOY: You're always on the move. Were you hyperactive as a kid?

MCMAHON: Maybe. When Shane had alleged learning disabilities in high school, we put him on Ritalin. When I was in school there was no Ritalin. Attention deficit disorder hadn't been discovered, so I was just a bad kid.

PLAYBOY: A little Ritalin in 1960 might have changed the course of American entertainment.

MCMAHON: [Laughing] That's one drug I've escaped. Maybe I had learning disabilites, or maybe I was just starved for attention, striving to be liked.

PLAYBOY: Your wrestlers have been getting more attention lately. A couple of years ago Ted Turner, Time Warner, and their World Championship Wrestling beat your WWF

in the ratings for 88 weeks in a row. Now you kill them week after week. How fun is it to body-slam Turner like that?

MCMAHON: What happened was that the superstars we created got bought off by Ted Turner. When their WWF contracts came up, Ted opened his checkbook and paid them up to 10 times what we were paying. I had a fraternal, we're-brothers relationship with our stars, guys like Hulk Hogan, and I never thought they would leave. They gave me every personal assurance that they wouldn't. But exorbitant money can change minds. It's not easy competing with a billionaire and Time Warner. Still, we knew we could create new stars, and this time around we'd keep them, knowing that the guys Ted bought would get old quickly. Looking back, yes, there was a brief time when the superstars Ted purchased almost in bulk and the promotional machine he owned--CNN, TBS, TNT, the NBA package, the NFL package, which he had for a while--all combined to put him ahead. But how far ahead? An average of 20 percent, of a the most 25. It's not hte crushing situation you see now, when we have new stars and their superstars are old and jaded and don't want to work. As my dad would say, the wrinkles are out of their bellies. They're no longer hungry. At Time Warner, they don't understand the creative process. They have never been able to create stars, but Ted buys things. He's always been like that. By the way, he has tried to buy the WWF on many occasions.

PLAYBOY: What's the prognosis for Turner's WCW?

MCMAHON: I understand it's for sale.

PLAYBOY: You interested?

MCMAHON: Possibly.

PLAYBOY: Now that you're on top, has the WWF been getting a little less raunchy?

MCMAHON: On balance, we've never been raunchy. I'd say we are certainly more mainstream than we were several years ago, and we have pushed the envelope too far a few times. A couple years ago we did that with a character called Sexual Chocolate. It was an S&M parody in which Sexual Chocolate was surprised to learn the person gratifying him was a male. Some of the audience got it as humor, but some felt like, How do I explain this to my young son or daughter? So maybe we pushed it too far. There was no reason to go there. But there will always be sexuality in the product. We're a variety show, soap opera, rock concert, action-adventure with a little Comedy Central thrown in and with charismatic world-class athletes performing their feats in the ring. There has never been anything quite like this, and you can't copy it. It can't be copied because there's no formula. It's living and breathing.

PLAYBOY: Some of your critics say it's disgusting. Phil Mushnick of the New York Post calls you a pornographer.

MCMAHON: Look, we have a huge demo. Fifteen percent of our prime-time audience is 12 and under. Fifteen percent is 12 to 18. That's 30 percent who are 19 and under, while 70 percent is your older audience. Who do you write for? Remember we're part of the cable universe, where you've got The Sopranos, Sex and the City. Compared with a lot of what's on cable, the WWF actually leans to the conservative side. Phil Mushnick? He's so right-wing that everybody laughs at him. Even in the New York Post recently, there was only one pro-Mushnick letter. All the rest were pro-WWF, saying, "Phil, grow up. Who the hell are you to view the WWF the way you do in this day and age?" Jerk. Phil writes his opinion, but he never calls us before he writes. He's been invited up here. Won't come, won't meet me anywhere. Hello, Phil? Wake up! It's the real world!

PLAYBOY: Your shows feature talk about "puppies" and "tits."

MCMAHON: We don't say "tits." We use "puppies," a cute term for breasts. It's not meant to be derogatory. I'd say "tits" is vulgar, but "puppies" is cute terminology.

PLAYBOY: But the fans yell about tits. And the signs fans hold up at your Monday night show, Raw Is War, aren't just about puppies.

MCMAHON: If we see a sign that's objectionable or obscene, we'll take it away. We're scanning the crowd, but sometimes there are 20,000 people there. You might see some signs that should not be there, especially on the live show Monday night. As much as I appreciate freedom of expression, we will ask the person not to display that sign. If he displays it anyway, we'll say, "You know what? We're going to bribe you now. Would you like to have this Stone Cold T-shirt for free? Give me that ****ing sign." Generally it works.

PLAYBOY: Last year you were charged with hypocrisy for refusing to allow ads for the documentary Beyond the Mat to run during WWF broadcasts. How do you explain that?

MCMAHON: As a business decision. You want to know what happened? Ron Howard is one of my neighbors. Not that I know Ron well, but he called me and said, "Vince, I'd like you to meet this guy. He wants to do a documentary." That's how I heard about Barry Blaustein. I figured it would be a great positive. But when Linda and I went to a private screening, we found out it's so bad. It's the underbelly of the wrestling business in the early Eighties. You've got Jake the Snake off doing blow, and the movie winds up with one of our characters, Mick Foley--Mankind--bleeding everywhere. I think it was a Royal Rumble event in Anaheim. Foley's kids are in the audience, along with his wife, and the camera's on them. Now, Mick's wife has seen him in a lot worse condition, but here she is screaming so much that the kids--who shouldn't have been there for this--are reacting to her hysterical screams. It turned me off so badly. I'm thinking, Barry, you and I have completely different visions of the business.

In the early Eighties, and certianly before then, it was viewed as a six-pack and a blow job. But today's performer is more sophisticated, educated. He's on the Internet after his match, or playing video games. Or he wants to watch tape to study his performance. He does not go to the bar. So few of our performers even drink, much less do drugs and other things that were once run-of-the-mill. So to see Mick and his kids and his wife in that movie was a real downer.

Even before that screening, I had told Barry and his backers, "You're using our characters, our trademarks. But none of our performers got paid. You're not paying the company. Let us buy in--I'll pay half the production costs." We were denied. I told them, "Look, you know we control all the advertising in our vehicles." We have for years, because we didn't want Turner or anyone else capitalizing on our hard work. We can't control Ford or Chevy, but we control the wrestling genre. So I'm trying the strongarm Barry and his studio. I tell them, "If you don't let us in, you won't have access to our vehicle." I guess they didn't believe me. Ron Howard said, "You know, Vince, sometimes out there in Hollywood you make bad deals, and you have to live with them." But this wasn't one I had to live with. And my decision wasn't an editorial one, even though I didn't like that movie. There's plenty of stuff we do that I'm not in love with, but the audience likes it. So this wasn't censorship. It was financial. It was, "You guys didn't let us in, even when I was willing to buy our way in, so **** you. You raped me once, you don't get the privilege of raping me twice. **** you. You can't advertise inside our vehicle.

PLAYBOY: Tell us about fear. You're not afraid of Ted Turner or Dracula. What scares you?

MCMAHON: I was scared of the United States government when I pissed off the Justice Department and they trampled on my rights. They accused me of something that I didn't do.

PLAYBOY: You were charged with conspiring to distribute steroids. You originally faced six charges but were ultimately cleared of all of them.

MCMAHON: And they were the one who had been coming to me with a plea bargain! It's supposed to work the other way--the accused goes to the government. But they came to me, and I said, "**** you." Those were my exact words. I tried to call Attorney General Janet Reno but never got through, which is probably a good thing.

PLAYBOY: Have you worked out any plans to hand over the reins of the WWF to Shane and Stephanie?

MCMAHON: Depends on what you mean by the reins. We'll be doing films, music--there's a lot to keep me busy, like this little thing called the XFL. But if I bust tonight, Shane and Stephanie and Linda will make sure the business goes on.

PLAYBOY:When you do step aside, will you write a death scene for you alter ego, the evil Mr. McMahon?

MCMAHON: A death scene? No, that wouldn't be reality. Unless...you know what? I believe in the laws of nature. When it's time for me to go, I would like to be devoured by the biggest, baddest carnivore that ever walked the face of the earth. And then I'd like that son of a bitch to get indigestion and vomit my remains back up.

PLAYBOY: A romantic finish.

MCMAHON: Yep.

PLAYBOY: And you know what you'd get----

MCMAHON: Great ratings.

[The Law]

Part One: http://pwchronicle.blogspot.com/2005/11/interview-with-vince-mcmahon-part-1.html

Part Two: http://pwchronicle.blogspot.com/2005/11/interview-with-vince-mcmahon-part-2.html

Apparently, there's a third part. Haven't been able to find it.

[Ringo]

It's all there I think ^

[Vice]

Edit: fuck ya'll

[Andy]

Ta.

[Peter Griffin]

http://ourwweviews.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/big20040728-brocksmooch.jpg

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS!

Tangent, I saw Sable and Torrie Wilson make out live back in the day :D

[Beer-Belly]

That part about young Vince putting crushed up leaves in his cousin's cooch... YIKES.

[The_Mike]

Vince makes for an interesting guy. Thinks anybody who 'lets' their background get in their way is a piece of shit, doesn't notice that he was basically given a wrestling company after his wealthy father paid for his schooling.

Of course, it would be beyond uncharitable for that to be the only thing I take away from that interview. Vince is clearly a haunted guy who has made an enormous success of himself despite significant issues in his past, and he obviously works hard. It's fascinating that he thinks Beyond the Mat raped WWE. A very peculiar choice of words, but I can see why he's upset. It did present a bit of a slanted view of wrestling. A wild match getting a bit out of hand in WWE is a million miles away from the life of Jake Roberts. Foley letting his children watch him get beaten half to death isn't exactly Vince's fault, even if he had a hand in crafting the match and the story.

What I find really weird about this interview is how incredibly intimate and frank it is. I don't think we've ever seen Vince nearly as honest about himself before or since. Why this interview, on this day? Was he drunk? Some of his remarks are just utterly off the wall, like his vision for the end of the Mr. McMahon character being eaten by a dinosaur and then vomited back up. I think the link with Shane having been diagnosed as having ADD is an interesting one. Vince is incredibly imaginative (to the point that he lets his own visions entertain him like a movie when trying to sleep) but seems to lack focus and constantly come up with odd non-sequitors. This interview explains a heck of a lot about WWE creative over the past decade.

[Beer-Belly]

It makes the incest angle he proposed even more creepy.

[Cewsh]

Vince makes for an interesting guy. Thinks anybody who 'lets' their background get in their way is a piece of shit, doesn't notice that he was basically given a wrestling company after his wealthy father paid for his schooling.

In fairness, that's technically true. But the promotion he was given was failing, and Vince Sr. allegedly gave it to him expecting him to drive it into the ground so he could tell Vince Jr. to leave him alone about the wrestling thing.

[Andy]

Man that's a weird interview.

This bit made me laugh...utterly bizarre

MCMAHON: A death scene? No, that wouldn't be reality. Unless...you know what? I believe in the laws of nature. When it's time for me to go, I would like to be devoured by the biggest, baddest carnivore that ever walked the face of the earth. And then I'd like that son of a bitch to get indigestion and vomit my remains back up.

[The_Mike]

In fairness, that's technically true. But the promotion he was given was failing, and Vince Sr. allegedly gave it to him expecting him to drive it into the ground so he could tell Vince Jr. to leave him alone about the wrestling thing.

A failing wrestling promotion is more of an opportunity than 99% of people brought up in trailer parks ever got at becoming a billionaire. Vince followed through, no doubt, but my point was so many people never even get the shot, and to blame them for not making something of themselves is just being a dick. The ruthless reaction to people who simply did not get the lucky breaks afforded to others really rubs me the wrong way, especially when it is manifest in a guy who had a series of incredibly unlucky breaks as well.

[MMH]

Vince makes for an interesting guy. Thinks anybody who 'lets' their background get in their way is a piece of shit, doesn't notice that he was basically given a wrestling company after his wealthy father paid for his schooling.


To be fair Vince had a pretty rough life early on.

[The_Mike]

To be fair Vince had a pretty rough life early on.

I did mention that at least twice. I would have thought that would give him something of a different perspective, but once he got lucky, he seems to have decided anyone else who has a shitty background is supposed to make themselves lucky later.

[DaSaintFan]

I always point to Goldust's first run in the mid-90's when this sort of topic comes up. I don't think his character was explicitly portrayed as a gay, but the ambiguity was there and based on his mannerisms and stuff, the implication was obvious. He was an incredibly revolutionary character, at the time, and the portrayal was excellent. He did the fruity stuff, sure, but he was also portrayed as a skilled wrestler and legitimate (mid-card) threat. He was easily one of the most compelling characters they had, at the time.

I actually go back a little further... Adrian Adonis and Adrian Street. They were both portrayed as complete homosexuals, and while they started off as villains, both characters had runs where the fans were clearly behind them, and they never to my recollection ever changed the flamboyance of the characters. I think, and I believe it was the old CWA (yes, I'm dating myself) I'm pretty sure that Street's gay character was the face (and _WAY_ over) because his primary rival "Wildcat" Wendell Cooley played the role of an extreme homophobe, and beat the hell out of Street for no reason other than his character's sexuality.

[GeezaTap]

Is there room for a 'Any port in a storm' character? They're not bothered as long as they get it wet.

A bit like a reboot of Diesel's character I suppose.

That or re-do the Rougeau's brothers thing, only instead of American-loving Canadians, it's the gayest straight man ever. Not for mind games, just really really OTT 'HIIIIIIIYAAAAAAA' :wave:

[Cewsh]

The first one would be perfectly fine, and even encouraged. Having a character be bisexual in a casual way would do wonders, because it would make it seem so much more natural and normal than a gay superhero type would.

The second one would be absurdly offensive.

[GeezaTap]

You're probably right - in true 'wrestling is your personality ramped up' way, I'm wondering how far a Chauvinist Sexist Gay Gimmick would go. Think Austin and Debra during the Invasion, only it's a gay guy and his female friend (hag).

It would be £££ to see the guy cock-block the red-blooded superstars from getting the Diva, even though he don't want none himself.

[Cewsh]

Not really sure why anyone would pay to see that, honestly.

[kangus]

I'm not gay and obviously I can't pretend to know where homosexual or bisexual people stand on the matter but I would think at the end of the day all people just want to be treated as people rather than being defined by their, in this case, sexual preference. Like I would imagine while being gay would be a source of unique pride, everyone, straight or otherwise, have similar goals in life and constantly having to explain or defend something out of their control shouldn't be part of the plan. With this in mind, I think any approach to incorporating a gay/bi character in wrestling has to tread carefully. In my opinion the best way to do this is by making the fact that one is gay a small part of a greater character. Perhaps they have an on-air boyfriend or something but it's only just one aspect of their wrestling personality. This sort of passive acceptance, rather than being the focus and overpowering the persona, shows the audience that people can be different but these differences are negligible compared to their comprehensive representation as a wrestler.

However, wrestling really tends to simplify and obviously turn up the volume of personalities and everything that goes along with that and I don't know if there is enough subtlety allowed for something I'm talking about to be successful.

[Big_Dre]

I think there's absolutely room for a gay/bi character in WWE. Like a lot of you guys have said, the problem is that every gay wrestler we've had in the past has been way too over the top. I think it'd be cool to see a regular wrester eventually come out during an interview or something. It could be part of a cool storyline.

The way I'd do it would be to have the wrestler enjoy a lot of success then suddenly start to falter... maybe lose a title or go on a losing streak. I'd have the commentators talk about his poor performance and have him look noticeably bothered by something whenever he appears. Have some of the other Superstars try to talk to the guy and see what's going on. Eventually, I'd have the wrestler come out and say he's been in the closet and it's affected his ring performance. After this they could have a lot of his peers show support and let the guy get back on the track of success now that his secret's out.

May sound kind of weird but I think it's really common for closeted people to struggle with keeping such a big secret. It'd be good to see WWE or TNA for that matter handle such an issue in a mature manner.

[Cewsh]

If that was handled right, it could turn that guy into a major, MAJOR star.

[GeezaTap]

After seeing some live wrestling at the weekend, Fergal Devitt could make it work. :eek:

Yes I know that makes me shallow.

[JP]

Gay is a work.

[Cewsh]

After seeing some live wrestling at the weekend, Fergal Devitt could make it work. :eek:

Yes I know that makes me shallow.

http://files.list.co.uk/images/s/fergalclash1.jpg

[GeezaTap]

I'm telling you, it's handy he lives in Japan as that's how far the restraining order is going to be............

Don't have me speyed. :(

[the_man_diva]

I've been involved in Professional Wrestling for a little over two years now. As a performer and a person, I haven't really experienced any issues with being openly gay. I currently work for Adrenaline Unleashed, where my promoter is staunchly against using my sexuality to get me over ... we don't hide the fact that I'm gay, but he really focuses on getting people to boo me as a heel because I'm a mouthy, sarcastic, bitchy little heel. The problem is, the fans really laugh at my insults and what I say, and cheer me as a result, which isn't what we are going for. I worked for another promotion here in Vegas, where I did a Bra & Panties Vs. Boxer-Briefs Match ... it was for Sinn Bodhi's Freakshow Wrestling but was hosted at the venue of this other promotion that I had FIRST started with. I had come up with the match and was very green at the time. I was the face, was pretty over, but the owner of the venue suggested *I* wear the bra and panties ... which kind of pissed me off.

Not every gay person is also a cross-dresser. I wound up wearing something with sequins, but refused to wear any girls' attire just for the laughs, which Sinn was very supportive of me and always very courteous about my feelings when booking me. I will say though ... I've done an Evening Gown Match here and there ... BUT, they were Hardcore Matches against a transwoman wrestler who has experiences with Deathmatches and who hits like a fucking semi, so in all honesty, the butch factor was still there.

I have no issues with WWE stating in a nonchalant manner that someone's gay and just leaving it at that. THAT would be progressive in my eyes. We don't need Orlando Jordan making a ridiculous, cringe-worthy entrance like he did in TNA. We don't need a watered-down Goldust. Let's just find someone who can work in the ring, cut a promo, and be a good example ... from what I know, there are already one or two batters from my team working for WWE. No one really seems to care, and no one seems to spill the details freely because none of that really matters.

I doubt anyone would have issues with someone being openly gay in WWE ... Triple H. got scouted by Pat Patterson, The Rock has also said great things about Patterson, Sherri Martel remarked in her HoF speech that Pat kept partners longer than the relationships she had on TV, Batista's mom is a lesbian, and Mickie James had been doing her stalker/kissing-other-girls angle long before Trish (she did it with Allison Danger when Danger, I think, was the manager for The Christopher Street Connection, a gay tandem). Matt Striker is also, supposedly, a supporter of equal rights as is CM Punk.

I remember hearing from Michael Modest during a training session that Moolah and Mae were a couple (which I could totally see) and that one of the Bushwackers was also gay. Then, there are those who don't identify as gay ... but have done Gay4Pay ... like DragonGate's AR Fox.

I'm very blessed that I have received a lot of support and encouragement from those in the wrestling business. Those who I am friends with, haven't been so lucky ... I really had an easier time of it than they did starting out, but I think that's because I'm mostly on the west coast.

There are a lot of open LGBT performers on the indie scene right now including "Boy-Diva" Rick Cataldo, Tommy Starstruck (who is focusing more on drag right now), Zane Xena-Cox, Michael Autumn, Hudson Envy (known as Spike in WOW), Madness, Sinsational Sal, Tigre Battlecat, Andrea the Giant, and Mariah "Amanda" Moreno (the transwoman who hits like a semi).

Johnny Kashmere - the first openly gay wrestler to be ranked on the PWI 500 - is going back to school currently, but he occasionally pops back up to do a show here and there.

PS: As a side note, Allison Danger labels herself as my favorite hag; Shelly Martinez and I have wrestled three times and she's completely supportive of gays; Winter is also a doll; and never assume someone from the south or someone who is of a different political party is against LGBT people ... I was scared shitless to meet Jake Roberts when he came to work a show with me and Sinn. I passed by him wearing these Dolph Ziggler looking pleather shorts and he stopped me and said, "Damn, nice legs." We've worked together a few times and I saw him recently here in Vegas for CAC where he hugged me, called me one of his favorites, and introduced me to his daughter.

So, yeah ... everyone talks about stereotyping gays, but they continue to stereotype people who are Christian, from the south, or vote Republican. Just stop. Stahp.

[Cewsh]

Great post. :yes:

[JP]

Great post.

Certainly makes me less apprehensive at the possibility of giving Wrestleicester a go.

[Peter Griffin]

Good post. I have always had a problem with Kanyon claiming he got sacked for being gay, I find it hard to believe that is the case tbh, and I believe Chris was just looking for someone to blame, sad how it all ended for him of course. The fact that Pat Patterson was and is a integral part of WWE makes me think they couldn't really give a toss about a performers sexuality.