View Full Version : Wrestling's Greatest "What Ifs?"
The Law
March 11th, 2013, 3:00 PM
It's fun to think about how things could have turned out differently in the wrestling business. When you look back on it, there are innumerable events that brought us to the current wrestling world that we are in. There are so many little things that could have gone differently that would completely alter the wrestling world. What could have gone differently, and where would we be if things hadn't worked out the way we did? A few that I feel could have truly altered wrestling:
-What if the AWA had put the title on Hulk Hogan in 1982?
-What if Vince McMahon hadn't taken WWF national?
-What if Hulk Hogan had retired from wrestling after leaving WWF in 1993?
-What if Eric Bischoff didn't fire Steve Austin?
-What if Vince McMahon had gone to jail for distributing steroids in the mid-1990s?
-What if the Klique hadn't done the Madison Square Garden curtain call and Triple H had won the 1996 King of the Ring instead of Austin?
-What if Steve Austin had been given the "Chilly McFreeze" gimmick instead of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin?
-What if Sting had been the NWO's third member instead of Hulk Hogan?
-What if the WWF roster had gone on strike after the Montreal Screwjob?
-What if the Fingerpoke of Doom did not happen?
-What if Bischoff's group had managed to buy WCW instead of Vince McMahon?
-What if Vince had kept WCW in business as a separate company?
-What if Rock hadn't left WWF to make movies?
-What if John Cena hadn't been given the "Dr. of Thuganomics" gimmick?
I have some answers for these I'm working on that I will post later. In the meantime, what do you think would have happened? And what are some other "what ifs" that could have changed wrestling or just been interesting?
Andy
March 11th, 2013, 3:08 PM
What if the WWF had done the Invasion angle properly? (So unbelievably poorly executed when it could've been amazing. If Triple H hadn't been injured would they have waited a few months and done it properly?)
What if John Cena hadn't beaten Brock Lesnar with two moves of doom in Lesnar's return match? (No I will not let that go.)
Chris
March 11th, 2013, 3:17 PM
Edit - Andy beat me to this one. What if Triple H hadn't torn his quadriceps in 2001? We could have had a very different invasion angle. Even before that, they had planted seeds for Stone Cold vs Triple H, so it could have affected the elevation of Jericho, Benoit and Angle.
I think another big one is what would have happened if Owen Hart hadn't injured Stone Cold at Summerslam 1997. Austin's style of wrestling could have been quite different. Plus, we might have had a very different main event picture in 2000 if Austin hadn't been absent due to neck surgery.
Andy
March 11th, 2013, 3:30 PM
Austin not being injured is an interesting one. Would Rock still have hit the heights that he did? I think he would've done but it might have taken a couple more years. And if that was the case would him potentially leaving later to do movies have had an impact? Had he stayed full time for two or three more years we could've seen Rock having feuds with Orton, Cena, Michaels, Lesnar and others.
Fanny Batter
March 11th, 2013, 3:33 PM
Injuries always change the game, so much to the point where you can probably go back to the first ever injury in wrestling history and start from there. Cena for example, would he have gotten that initial main-event push against Lesnar if Angle, Undertaker and Edge didn't go down with injury? Bret Hart got his first title run because Flair injured his ear (and Warrior messed up plans). Triple H's irst run on top came when Undertaker, Foley and Austin were all struggling and he'd been promoted up the card due to Michaels' back injury too. Austin himself benefitted from another Michaels injury, as WM13 was looking to be Bret vs. Shawn and Austin would never have gotten that big submission match. There's not many wrestlers in history that have been brought in destined to be big, and stayed big because of the desired booking. Batista getting that renewed push due to Orton's failure as a face. Punk winning MITB the first time because of Jeff's positive drugs test. So many.
I think the right answer, for a lot of "what would have happened to..." is that success would have come eventually, as stars always come through. It's kind of like discussing the water cycle, because injuries and mishaps are just as frequent as star making performances.
Hero!
March 11th, 2013, 3:49 PM
What if Benoit hadn't snapped?
WizoOzz
March 11th, 2013, 3:51 PM
Since I'm bored at work and have about an hour to kill, I'll throw my hand into this.
-What if the AWA had put the title on Hulk Hogan in 1982?
Vince would have obviously had to find someone else to be the face of the WWF. He probably would have pushed Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndorff as a face, because at that time, Vince was in love with that whole look. Whether or not it would have worked, I dunno.
-What if Vince McMahon hadn't taken WWF national?
We'd still be in a territory-based wrestling system. Many of the territories would still be going on today. I think, everything else being the same, we probably would have gone the opposite direction, with many smaller territories developing within the existing ones.
-What if Hulk Hogan had retired from wrestling after leaving WWF in 1993?
The Attitude Era boom wouldn't have popped up. Hogan, being the main face of wrestling (like it or not), represented the squeaky-clean, wholesome aspects of wrestling. WCW's stock raised in the eyes of the casual wrestling fan, because he was basically the mainstream icon for the industry. WCW would have died an even earlier death, though, because there wouldn't have been that thing to get more eyeballs over to WCW. I watched both WCW and WWF(E - whatever) as a kid, and WCW, while good on its own merits, was never looked at as on par with WWF(E - whatever) until Hogan signed.
-What if Eric Bischoff didn't fire Steve Austin?
Austin would have eventually gone elsewhere anyway. He was treading water in WCW, and would have floundered on the midcard for years. There wouldn't have been a "Texas Rattlesnake," and the Attitude Era boom would have been much different.
-What if Vince McMahon had gone to jail for distributing steroids in the mid-1990s?
I don't think much would have changed form this. WWE may have been on a slippery slope, but Vince would have been running the show from inside his cell.
-What if the Klique hadn't done the Madison Square Garden curtain call and Triple H had won the 1996 King of the Ring instead of Austin?
Honestly don't think either would have affected the business in any real measurable manner. Trips was destined to be a pretty big name (although I think he's overrated, and probably holds himself in a higher esteem than is warranted), so him winning the King of the Ring would have just cemented it sooner. Austin was already too hot to go anywhere but the stratosphere. And the Kliq thing, for those of us that weren't attuned to it at the time, had no bearing on those of us that weren't attuned to it. In fact, had I known about it, it would have lessened the impact of seeing Hall on Nitro that first time. But, not knowing anything about the backstage antics in wrestling, seeing Razor Ramon on the opposite show was mind boggling. It would have, if anything, given WCW even more momentum.
-What if Steve Austin had been given the "Chilly McFreeze" gimmick instead of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin?
It wouldn't have gone over at all. The name is just silly. WWE probably wouldn't have had the success it had due to SCSA. He'd have been repackaged once again, but I think would have eventually found his niche as a solid upper midcarder at least. The Rock would have overtaken him in terms of popularity and being the main focus of the company, hands down.
-What if Sting had been the NWO's third member instead of Hulk Hogan?
This is interesting. Because while Sting is important to wrestling's history in that he was the mainstay big draw for WCW for arguably one of the longest periods in that company's history, he's not Hulk Hogan - an icon in the industry. The impact wouldn't have been as strong as Hogan, and probably would have deflated the impact of the angle. It would have probably killed the angle sooner, because the icing on the cake was that Hogan was the biggest fish in that Titan Sports pond. So Hall and Nash, on one level , were foreshadowing to the big reveal of Hogan. Sting turning would have been impactful to those who had followed WCW, but not so much on a mainstream, publicity-wise scale.
Hogan turning heel was a huge deal because it was Hulk freaking Hogan. The say your prayers, eat your vitamins, 24-inch pythons, Real American Hulk Hogan. Biggest face in wrestling at the time in many different respects, and for the longest time. Sting was a face in WCW, and a big name in WCW. But Hogan was that for the industry as a whole. So, while impactful, there wouldn't have been the fervor that was created by Hogan being the third man.
-What if the WWF roster had gone on strike after the Montreal Screwjob?
Wouldn't have ever happened, period. It's a business, after all. The guys who work are earning a living. Realistically, would not have happened at all, ever.
-What if the Fingerpoke of Doom did not happen?
If they had actually booked a match between Hogan and Nash it would have stunk on ice. However, you would have seen a continuing splinter in the ranks of both the Wolfpac and NWO, to the point where either the NWO would have ceased to exist, or would have just been shaken down to two core groups. And you would have had one group wipe the other out in a War Games (probably) scenario.
-What if Bischoff's group had managed to buy WCW instead of Vince McMahon?
TNA wouldn't exist. Jarrett wouldn't have needed to start it, because it would have been around a little longer. I still think it would have eventually died, though, as there wasn't really a place on television for it. The Turner networks were already done with it due to the AOL/Time Warner merger, and USA at the time was off wrestling. WWE had already been on TNN/Spike, and there just wasn't any other outlet for wrestling at the time. So it would have hung on to life briefly, but just briefly, and died anyway. Bischoff was a great talker and overall slicky boy, but he was never a great wrestling booker or anything like that. He had a hot angle that took off into the stratosphere, but couldn't keep it up. And even that idea was basically not an original idea.
-What if Vince had kept WCW in business as a separate company?
I think Vince not keeping the WCW brand is a gross misstep on his part. I know that king big swingin' dick wants the WWE name and brand to not only be recognized, but recognized as the greatest of all time, and that his ego wouldn't really lead him to give WCW, a company that was purchased by Turner specifically to go one-on-one against Vince, any real play. But in business, you've got to swallow some pride and realize that some brands hold value. Look at the whole hoopla that occurred when Hostess filed for bankruptcy. Twinkies and Ho-Ho's hold value. Especially Ho-Ho's because they're fuckin' delicious, but I digress. There was value left there that could have been used and at least exploited there. You're talking about the company that brought us the Horsemen for God's sake.
I would have approached a brand split different. The problem that I have seen with the brand split has always been that they're both two of the same product. It's like if McDonald's opened a restaurant with a McDonald's menu, but called the separate restaurant O'Donnell's. If it's the same menu with the same options and the money's going to the same place, but has a different paint scheme, it's still the same restaurant. They could have hired some guys who were behind the scenes at WCW, and tried to book a WCW styled show. They never did, and that art of southern-style pro wrestling was essentially dead. They did the same exact thing when they kickstarted ECW, and instead of doing something edgier with younger developing talent, they shit on something that still had value left to its name.
If Vince weren't so bull-headed in thinking that his product done his way is the only way that the product can be put forth, and had swallowed his pride and allowed WCW and ECW to flourish on their merits, hiring selected guys who had been there when it had worked, and actually let them run things with a less bearing hand and more of an editing style than a micromanaging style, he'd be a much richer man, in my opinion, because both brands would still be around.
But what do I know? I'm just a fan with no actual practical experience. Meh.
-What if Rock hadn't left WWF to make movies?
Rock would have left. While Austin was huge, Rock was at one point his equal in stature in WWE, and had so much potential that it couldn't just be contained to wrestling. It sucked when he left, because it was yet another huge name in the business gone. He was a straight through and through WWE guy. He was basically everything that Randy Orton has failed to be.
That being said, if Rock hadn't left, he'd probably be in a similar role to that of Triple H. Because I don't think his ultimate goal was ever to be just a wrestler. He had too much potential for that. He may not necessarily have still been in WWE, though.
-What if John Cena hadn't been given the "Dr. of Thuganomics" gimmick?
There'd be no John Cena on my tv today. While I respect him for being the top of the talent pool (even though I can't fucking stand him), if it weren't for that gimmick that actually entertained me at the time, he would have never gotten over, and would have been "future endeavored" as a white meat babyface.
Meh, I hope all that makes sense.
Cewsh
March 11th, 2013, 3:51 PM
CM Punk would be losing matches to Mason Ryan on Main Event right now.
Edit: Responding to Hero.
Andy
March 11th, 2013, 3:53 PM
Wasn't he due to win the title the night the whole thing came out?
Cewsh
March 11th, 2013, 3:56 PM
The ECW title, sure. How much did that help John Morrison, Ezekiel Jackson, Jack Swagger, Chavo Guerrero, Tommy Dreamer and Matt Hardy?
Hero!
March 11th, 2013, 4:02 PM
CM Punk would be losing matches to Mason Ryan on Main Event right now.
Edit: Responding to Hero.
Not really man. Punk's time in ECW and the stuff he did after are almost 2 entirely seperate entities.
Plus, Punk didn't get the ECW title till like 6 months later, after JoMo got suspended.
The Law
March 11th, 2013, 4:07 PM
Answers to my questions:
-What if the AWA had put the title on Hulk Hogan in 1982?
The AWA would have been relevant for much longer than it was in the real world. Hogan would have put them in a position to be a major competitor to the WWF. WWF would have inevitably won the war, they had the most money and the best media markets. I think McMahon's national push would have been delayed for a few years while he searched for a top guy to build his company around. The answer would have been "Macho Man" Randy Savage, who signed with the company in mid-1985. Savage would have been the man on top instead of Hogan during WWF's national expansion. When Hogan inevitably signed with the WWF, he would have been brought in as a foil to Savage-either as a villain or a rival babyface in the same way that Warrior was to Hogan. Hogan still would have been a major star, but him and Savage would essentially flip-flop their places in wrestling history.
-What if Vince McMahon hadn't taken the WWF national?
Vince McMahon Senior's dying wish to his son was that he not take the WWF national. Let's say that Vince honored that wish and kept the WWF as a northeast regional promotion. Inevitably someone would have had the idea to create a national wrestling company. It might have been Ted Turner, it might have been some other rich entrepreneur. Cable TV and pay-per-view made the nationalization of wrestling inevitable. There's just too much money in it. McMahon would have eventually been forced to compete with someone trying to put him out of business.
-What if Hulk Hogan had retired from wrestling after leaving WWF in 1993?
If Hogan's acting career had taken off (yes, we're in the realm of fantasy now) he wouldn't have come back to wrestling. If Hogan never signs with WCW I don't think they would have ever overtaken the WWF. Instead they would have coasted along in second place until Turner got tired of it and they went out of business. There's a decent chance that WWF is never forced to go out of their comfort zone and start presenting a more adult product-we never get the Attitude Era. Perhaps Bret Hart would have never turned heel and stayed as the top guy in WWF until Rock was ready to take the torch from him?
-What if Eric Bischoff didn't fire Steve Austin?
Austin never would have been pushed to the level he deserved in WCW. It's unlikely he ever would have been given a chance to develop the "Superstar" Steve Austin character that came to him in ECW while he was voicing his frustrations at being screwed over by Hogan and Bischoff. Without Austin I don't think the WWF would have won the Monday Night War. WCW was a self-destructive company with an unsustainable financial model, but they probably would have had time to retool if the Austin/McMahon feud hadn't kicked their ass. I think there's a reasonable chance WCW would still be in business today.
-What if Vince McMahon had gone to jail for distributing steroids in the mid-1990s?
I think this one is open and shut: the WWF would have gone out of business. WCW signed Hogan in 1994 and were well on their way to becoming a legitimate competitor. Shane and Stephanie were too young to take over the company from Vince. There was no one else that could have done all the things he did for the company at that point, and he can't run the company from federal prison. WCW would have put them out of business.
-What if the Klique hadn't done the Madison Square Garden curtain call and Triple H had won the 1996 King of the Ring instead of Austin?
I think Austin probably would have gotten over anyway, as he already had the "Stone Cold" character going. It's also not like winning King of the Ring resulted in him getting a huge push: they didn't really do anything with him until Bret said he wanted to work with him. They started their program and Austin's ascent to the top began.
-What if Steve Austin had been given the "Chilly McFreeze" gimmick instead of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin?
Yeah, this would have screwed him over. Chilly McFreeze is not going to get over. Chilly McFreeze isn't going to win King of the Ring even after Triple H gets in hot water. It probably would have been Ahmed Johnson or Marc Mero instead. Ultimately, he wouldn't have gotten over and they would have gone back to the drawing board for another gimmick. At which point they probably would have come up with something decent enough for this immensely talented performer to get over.
-What if Sting had been the NWO's third member instead of Hulk Hogan?
The NWO angle wouldn't have worked to the extent that it did. The angle was hot, but Sting wouldn't have worked as a member of the NWO. First, Sting has never really played heel and it hasn't worked he he has. Second, if Hogan's not in the NWO they aren't going to get to dominate the company the way that they did at the beginning of their run. Instead, Hogan is going to return and kick their asses. That was just how it went at that time in WCW. The NWO angle would have petered out and WCW wouldn't have surpassed the WWF in 1996-1997. Therefore, we don't get a major retool of the WWF's creative direction in early 1997. Again, no Attitude Era.
-What if the WWF roster had gone on strike after the Montreal Screwjob?
Not sure if this was something that could have plausibly happened, but if the roster refuses to work Vince is done. If the show consists of Shawn, Triple H, and a bunch of guys they signed off the street their ratings are going to drop even further and they would have gone out of business. They were at a point where they couldn't afford to pay Bret Hart $1 million a year, so they clearly didn't have much excess cash floating around.
-What if the Fingerpoke of Doom did not happen?
WCW would have bombed out anyway. I think they were pretty much past the point of no return by then. The Fingerpoke makes a nice ending point for WCW being a serious competitor to WWF, but they were still doing solid ratings for awhile after that.
-What if Bischoff's group had managed to buy WCW instead of Vince McMahon?
Not sure. My understanding is that WCW was going to get kicked off of TNT and TBS because the higher-ups hated wrestling. That means they have to find a way to get back on TV. Wrestling really isn't a hot commodity with TV networks, despite its ratings success. I'm sure they would have found someone to put them on TV. It's hard to see WCW ever surpassing the WWF. But I think they would essentially be a better version of TNA.
-What if Vince had kept WCW in business as a separate company?
Not sure this was really a plausible option. They could have take the WCW guys they got when they bought the company and added some WWF guys to the roster. But did they really have the resources to produce and manage a totally separate wrestling company? By 2001 they were struggling to produce one good wrestling show. Producing two would have been a real stretch.
-What if Rock hadn't left WWF to make movies?
He would still be on top, and he would have been the top guy this entire time. Rock basically went away after 2002. He was there for three months in 2003 and one match in 2004. Instead, he would have take the torch from Austin and run with it. Smackdown was Brock's show at that point, so Rock would have been the star of Raw. No Triple H reigns of doom, unless they happen on Smackdown. Guys like Cena, Batista, and Orton still become main eventers, but they wouldn't surpass Rock. I don't think we would have gotten tired of him because he can place face and heel equally well. He probably would have made a run at Flair's 16 world championship record. There's a good shot he would have gone down as the greatest professional wrestler ever. Business still would have declined. But it probably never would have dropped as far as it did.
-What if John Cena hadn't been given the "Dr. of Thuganomics" gimmick?
Cena's too talented to not become a main eventer. He was floundering before Stephanie heard him rapping and they decided to give him that gimmick, but he would have found something that worked eventually. "The Prototype" always seemed like a pretty awesome gimmick. Ultimately, Cena is the type of guy whose rise was more or less inevitable.
Andy
March 11th, 2013, 4:10 PM
What if they hadn't turned Austin at WM17?
This has always been an interesting one for me. How long could he have gone on for as the absolute top face and continue to get the reactions he had done for the previous four years. He could've feuded with Angle and Jericho for a start, maybe Lesnar too if they'd postponed the Invasion angle.
One interesting thing I've always thought about is if Austin didn't turn heel at 17, would The Undertaker's streak have lasted beyond 2001? Triple H was basically the third guy from late 1999 until he got injured in 2001. From what I remember Undertaker had returned from injury in mid 2000 and didn't really have a huge amount of momentum heading into Mania. He'd lost title matches throughout late 2000 in HIAC, a fatal four way and one on one against Angle. He didn't do anything in The Rumble either. Triple H had lost a lot but he was constantly in the title picture and had just come out of a massive feud with Austin.
Anyway, what I'm saying is if Stone Cold had won as a face, would that have opened up a spot for the heel Trips to beat Taker at Mania? With Austin turning heel that card would've been kind of stacked with heel victories without Taker winning.
Cewsh
March 11th, 2013, 4:12 PM
Not really man. Punk's time in ECW and the stuff he did after are almost 2 entirely seperate entities.
Plus, Punk didn't get the ECW title till like 6 months later, after JoMo got suspended.
The ECW title doesn't have anything to do with it. I was just saying that him being scheduled to win it doesn't mean much in terms of where his career was headed and the level of success he would have had.
If Benoit never happens, then WWE doesn't use Punk as the anti-Jeff Hardy in damage control with the Money in the Bank contract because so much drug related scrutiny is on them. It means they don't push Punk to the upper midcard where he hung around until he got his real opportunity because the people against him backstage no longer have a reason to see the value in having him as a significant part of the shows during the crisis as a fop to advertisers. It means that WWE doesn't push upper midcarders like Punk so hard to title reigns because they aren't trying so hard to fill in holes brought on my main eventer suspensions, and a deflating of the roster as they got off of the steroids. And considering the crazy chain of events that was needed to make him the main eventer he is today, it almost certainly wouldn't have happened.
I love Punk, and I'd have been rooting for him all the way, but it's hard to see it as likely that he'd even still be in WWE, because he never would have broken through the glass ceiling unless WWE had had no other choice but to let him.
chatty
March 11th, 2013, 4:41 PM
I don't think it would have made that much difference if Austin had turned or not. He was only a heel for about six months anyway and then turned back. He was running his course at the end of his career really as he fell out with them not long after and buggered off only for a couple of matches left when he returned.
What if Owen, Eddie or Benoit hadn't had died?
Those have bigger implementations as they highly effected the way the business worked bringing in certain safety procedures, wellness policy, total crackdown on roids etc.
Cewsh
March 11th, 2013, 4:55 PM
If nothing else, Austin turning heel and forming the Alliance created the vehicle that made Rob Van Dam an incredibly fast rising star. It also resulted in cementing Kurt Angle's status as a permanant main eventer.
Mills
March 11th, 2013, 4:56 PM
On wrestlecrap, they have a section called rewriting the book. Pretty interesting takes on major and minor angles and how they would turn out
stylepoints
March 11th, 2013, 6:28 PM
Much like the previously mentioned scenarios, the gravity of this event would have most likely shaped everything around it. What if Magnum TA never got in the career ending car wreck.
Of course he was scheduled to win the NWA title at SC87. Many say that they intended to move from a heel champion constant to a face champion. How would have it impacted Flair's legacy? Would he have been JPC's answer to Hogan as hoped? Would JPC have thrived or would things been the same?
Cewsh
March 11th, 2013, 6:33 PM
Well they were going out of business regardless.
JRSlim21
March 11th, 2013, 11:28 PM
The only thing I can offer to not make things repetitive....
If Sterling Golden never jumped, then would Piper be the mega heel champion we like to think he would have been? And instead of Hogan, Savage might've been given the ball to become the mega babyface setting up an interesting alternate universe. Taking into the assumption that the territories still existed, you would've had WWF, NWA and AWA jockeying for top dog in the cable market. WWF pushing Savage/Piper, NWA pushing Magnum TA & Flair, and AWA pushing Hogan & Hansen/Bockwinkel?
Bluegunn
March 12th, 2013, 3:07 AM
What if the Brand split never happened.
What if Ultimate Warrior was not so hung up on money?
Here is one I wonder, what if it was Jennetty that superkicked HBK at the Barbershop?
What if the Rumble ending got botched and Santino won the Rumble?
Archangel
March 12th, 2013, 4:02 PM
What of Triple H never married Stephanie McMahon?
Cewsh
March 12th, 2013, 4:08 PM
Johnny Ace would still be in charge of talent and development and we'd be a lot worse off right now.
Peter Griffin
March 12th, 2013, 4:08 PM
What if Undertaker had become The American Bad Ass at the time DOA were around and been the leader of the faction?, i have no idea why that just came to mind, but it did :shifty:
Mills
March 12th, 2013, 4:18 PM
What if Eric Bischoff didn't give creative control to wrestlers?
Vice
March 12th, 2013, 5:29 PM
What if Vince Russo did for WCW what he helped do for WWE?
Cewsh
March 12th, 2013, 5:32 PM
He pretty much did. He just tried to do it with Chuck Palumbo instead of the Rock.
Vice
March 12th, 2013, 5:51 PM
Pffft.
Cewsh
March 12th, 2013, 5:53 PM
Actually, he did it with The Juice instead of the Rock, which is like a 500% improvement. I have no idea how he failed.
Edit: JUICE ON COMMENTARY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJyDPAeUPAA
Ochoa
March 12th, 2013, 8:11 PM
What if Lex Luger had won the title at WM X instead of Bret Hart?
Bluegunn
March 12th, 2013, 11:23 PM
What if someone else slammed Yokozuna before Luger did
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 13th, 2013, 12:05 AM
What if Rock did'nt bury Booker T in 2001?
Kdestiny
March 13th, 2013, 12:32 AM
What if the Undertaker lost before his streak became so significant?
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 13th, 2013, 12:50 AM
What if the Undertaker lost before his streak became so significant?
you know I think WWE had it planned all along. There was a discussion on when did they start referencing the streak and the phrase "Undertaker has never lost at Wrestlemania" was coined all the way back to King Kong Bundy.
Mills
March 13th, 2013, 1:34 AM
Why dont we try to write some of these up? I could always go for some fantasy booking #atnumbers
Kdestiny
March 13th, 2013, 1:45 AM
What if Lex Luger had won the title at WM X instead of Bret Hart?
I do feel that if this happened then both guys might be still wrestling today I'd imagine.
Bluegunn
March 13th, 2013, 2:41 AM
I would think Bret would still have feuded with Owen and Luger would have feuded with Crush.
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 13th, 2013, 5:08 PM
Why dont we try to write some of these up? I could always go for some fantasy booking #atnumbers
Well my "what if" could have brought Sting to WWE. We all know Rock has always wanted to face him in a money match at Wrestlemania.
So what if Rock would have faced Hogan at WM X8 (which he did) but then heel Rock faced Sting at X9? or viceversa?
turdpower
March 13th, 2013, 5:28 PM
What if Vince matched Nash and Hall's wage offer from WCW?
What if HHH never got injured in 2001?
What if WCW had decent wrestlers during the invasion and someone managed to convince Vince (hey, that rhymes) that WCW should win to set up a REFUED?
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 13th, 2013, 5:37 PM
What if Flexi Lexi lead the invasion?
and Demolition faced the Dudleyz?
stylepoints
March 13th, 2013, 7:37 PM
What if Rock did'nt bury Booker T in 2001?
We might be watching Sting in WWE right now.
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 13th, 2013, 7:54 PM
We might be watching Sting in WWE right now.
It would have happened on 2-21-11
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 13th, 2013, 7:56 PM
It would have happened on 2-21-11
playing with numbers though was 2-21-11 a long term prophecy for 21-1???? wm 30????? John Cena??? Stone Cold Steve Austin????
seriously though I would mark the FUCK out if Taker returned after EC next year on Raw, walked to the ring and then just like Triple H's music hit we hear the glass break and the match of matches is set up without a single word just a throat slash and 2 middle fingers
but naawww it'll probably be a you can't see me motion which is epic enough in it's own right....
chatty
March 13th, 2013, 8:18 PM
This one probably wouldn't have made that much difference in the long haul but what if WWE hadn't screwed up Punks story when he was mega over and instead kept the belt on him, not brought in crippled Nash and instead of rushing things set up the Punk-HHH match for Mania instead of blowing it off in a month.
mr sabu
March 13th, 2013, 8:29 PM
what if Edison didn't fuck over Tesla
Kneeneighbor
March 13th, 2013, 8:49 PM
What if Hogan didnt have lust in his eyes?
Hero!
March 13th, 2013, 8:53 PM
What if Triple H wasn't injured during the invasion? Would he have betrayed the WWE? Would he have been the undisputed champion instead of Jericho?
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 13th, 2013, 10:08 PM
Would there have been a 3 or even a 4 Man Power Trip?
Ochoa
March 14th, 2013, 6:25 AM
What if Bret and Shawn got along back in the late 90's?
Chris
March 14th, 2013, 7:08 AM
What if Lita hadn't injured her neck in 2002. Trish was already training to become a better wrestler, but I'd say Lita's absence created a vacuum for her to be the centre-piece of the division. Quite similar to how Austin's absence in 2000 led to the Rock becoming the top dog.
What if Edge had never had an affair with Lita? I think the on-screen alliance with Lita was a big turning point for Edge as a heel. It was also a really interesting time for fans, as they made their voices known about the real-life affair on the live shows; to the point that WWE teased Matt's return before finally bringing him back. It was clear that WWE thought they were on to something big - they even had Vince McMahon introduce Matt when he made his return. Then you have all the professional and personal ramifications for Matt stemming from that affair.
chatty
March 14th, 2013, 8:17 AM
What if Nash and Hall had stayed with WWE instead of crossing over?
Would probably have vettoed the NWO, Mankind, Austin etc - No attitude era, WCW probably wuldn't have done as well as it did and we would have had a major clique takeover of WWE.
McBain
March 14th, 2013, 9:41 AM
What if more people in this thread actually speculated on what might happen in answer to some of these questions?
casselmm47
March 14th, 2013, 9:42 AM
What if HBK hadn't lost his smile/been injured/left in '97-'98? Or even if he had been straight enough to be there for WMX7 and the Invasion?
Cewsh
March 14th, 2013, 10:54 AM
What if more people in this thread actually speculated on what might happen in answer to some of these questions?
Agreed.
What if HBK hadn't lost his smile/been injured/left in '97-'98? Or even if he had been straight enough to be there for WMX7 and the Invasion?
To be honest, I seriously doubt that Michaels would have still been around by 2001 if he hadn't had to retire. He was on a self destructive run that few have ever matched and was becoming increasingly unreliable. He found God and got himself better while at home recovering from his injury, and if he hadn't had to face it he'd basically be Scott Hall right now. At best.
Other ramifications of that wound be the fact that his erratic behavior would almost certainly have dragged Triple H down with him, or at least would have kept them from having such a positive on screen relationship, which they've mined to great results for over 10 years since Michaels came back. Then there's the undermining of Austin by having someone at the top not willing to do business, (the only guy above Austin on the totem pole when he finally got there was Taker, a consummate professional,) so that would have hurt things as well.
Basically, the injury was the best thing for everyone, especially Shawn.
The Law
March 14th, 2013, 2:08 PM
What if Hall and Nash had stayed?
I don't think this one makes a huge difference. Hall, at his peak, never really got above the upper-midcard. By 1996 his overness and working ability had begun to decline as his personal demons began to take their toll. I think he would have been another midcarder, feuding with Val Venis, Goldust, Godfather, and the rest of the IC Title crew.
Nash is a more interesting case. Obviously, he wasn't going to be top guy. They had already declared the experiment of him on top a failure before it became apparent he was leaving. He still would have been a main eventer, but he primarily would have been putting over Austin, Rock, and Foley. If the NWO angle never happens (I wouldn't take this for certain, I think Bischoff had the idea for the angle before he signed Hall and Nash and may have pulled something similar with other guys) WWE doesn't necessarily have their big retool with Russo taking over the creative team in early 1997. Perhaps that means no "Attitude Era," but I don't think it means Austin doesn't become top guy. Austin started getting hot when he feuded with Bret-that happened in late 1996, because Bret told them he wanted to work with Austin. By the time Russo took over the creative team Austin had already won the Royal Rumble and was being heavily pushed.
I think the power of the Klique has probably been exaggerated to some extent. If anything, Hall and Nash jumping made Shawn more powerful because Michaels was all Vince had left. Bret was on the verge of leaving and Vince was terrified that the company was going to go under, so he had to keep HBK happy to stop him from leaving for WCW with everyone else. Even though Nash had the title for almost a year, they never put him over Bret. The power of the Klique didn't stop them from pulling the plug on Diesel and putting the title back on Bret at Survivor Series 1995.
As for WCW, could they have run the NWO angle with Hogan, Savage, and Luger (or Davey Boy Smith, or any other former WWF guy)? The angle wouldn't have felt as "real," because it would involve guys who were already working for WCW at the time. But what made the NWO angle huge was Hogan turning heel. A super group of former WWF guys feuding with Sting, the Horsemen, and the rest of the WCW guys would have been pretty awesome in its own right.
What if Triple H hadn't gotten hurt in 2001?
I think this one makes a big difference. Word is that they moved up the invasion after Triple H got hurt because they didn't have anyone for Austin to feud with, especially after Benoit went down. If Triple H doesn't get hurt they were presumably planning on turning him face and having him feud with Austin for most of 2001, pushing the invasion back until late 2001 or even the beginning of 2002. Now, I think they made a huge mistake pulling the trigger on the invasion so soon. They could have just done Austin vs. Jericho at the July PPV (not a huge draw, but not a disaster) and then bring Rock back for the huge Rock/Austin Summerslam main event. Rock didn't leave again until after Wrestlemania 18, so they would have had him and Austin in the main event along with Jericho and Angle. Edge was rising on the midcard and they still had the Hardys and Dudleys in the tag division.
But back on topic, if they have HHH they can hold off on the invasion until they've signed more of the guys that we wanted to see-Flair showed up after Survivor Series, and the NWO came in at No Way Out 2002. Steiner didn't sign until late 2002 and Goldberg didn't come in until 2003, but they could have gotten them earlier if they had put up the money. Basically, we could have gotten a real invasion angle instead of the bastardization that we got. Presumably they would have abandoned Austin's failed heel turn by then (that really screwed the angle up because he couldn't be a heel while fighting off the invaders). Whether or not they would have let the invaders get any heat is still and open question, but at least they would have had the personnel to make it work.
What if Bret and Shawn didn't hate each other?
Well, we probably would have gotten Bret vs. Shawn II at Wrestlemania 13 with Bret going over and turning heel. I think most people acknowledge that Shawn could have worked through his knee injury if he had wanted. That means no Bret/Austin classic. I'm not going to claim that this stops Austin becoming top guy. Shawn was hurt and was going to have to take time off after Wrestlemania, so someone would have had to feud with Bret. Austin was already getting cheered before Wrestlemania 13, so a face turn was probably inevitable. They still run the USA vs. Canada angle, but they don't have to keep teasing Bret and Shawn without them actually fighting. Shawn is part of Team USA at Canadian Stampede (or was he pulled due to injury? Mid-1997 was weird). Bret still leaves. That was for financial reasons. But there's no screwjob because he has no problem putting Shawn over on his way out. Overall, not a ton changes with this one.
chatty
March 14th, 2013, 2:39 PM
I dunno, I could see Nash/Hall staying have a knock on effect. People started turning over to the other product when those two arrived which ultimately led to the buzz of Hogan going heel and forming the NWO. I'm not sure without those two, that the faction would have took of, definitely to the level it did. Whilst Sting, Savage, Luger could have been used instead, they were already there so the whole faction wouldn't have got over originally like it did with The Outsiders.
Plus if they had stayed it would have kept Hall/Nash in the main event, upper mid-card area with guys like Austin and Foley not getting as much as a chance as they did to push their way up the card. Not saying they wouldn't have but they would have had more competition. Also if the catalyst didn't propel WCW to the number one show they wouldn't have offered Bret the mega deal which was a big factor in the Montreal screwjob.
If he was sticking around then it could have led to all sorts of alternative universe stuff like Owen not dying, Bulldog and Neidhart hanging around in a more prominent role for longer, Bret never having a stroke, we might never have gotten the Austin/Hart angle if there were other options for him when their plans went pear shaped.
If WWE/F had stayed ahead then we probably wouldn't have had an attitude era as WWE/F have shown they aren't as ballsy when the ball is in their park and that would probably see the whole wrestling world completely different.
WCW may still be here or it may have sunk quicker, thats a harder question to answer as guys like Benoit, Jericho, Eddie, Rey etc may have been pushed harder if they didn't have a host of stars keeping them away from there spots.They could however, have just had the plug pulled from under them and killed off.
Cewsh
March 14th, 2013, 2:43 PM
What if Edge had never had an affair with Lita? I think the on-screen alliance with Lita was a big turning point for Edge as a heel. It was also a really interesting time for fans, as they made their voices known about the real-life affair on the live shows; to the point that WWE teased Matt's return before finally bringing him back. It was clear that WWE thought they were on to something big - they even had Vince McMahon introduce Matt when he made his return. Then you have all the professional and personal ramifications for Matt stemming from that affair.
This is a big one. I don't think Edge would have ever found that special something in his character to make it as a top heel without that whole business happening. The genuine heat he got from it, and the incredible chemistry he and Lita had were the impetus for him to become the biggest heel in wrestling. And without him getting there, I think that Cena would have struggled to stay on top and relevant with no real foil. Cena was already a star, but he and Edge made each other. And pretty much anything good on Smackdown from 2007 on was Edge's doing as well. The ramifications go deep.
Vice
March 14th, 2013, 3:03 PM
Has anyone thought about turning this into multiple threads? We could have a new WHAT IF every few days and have people spend lots of time theorizing and discussing and stuff.
Cewsh
March 14th, 2013, 3:07 PM
Definitely a solid idea. :yes:
Does somebody want to volunteer to do it consistently so we don't get 80 new threads every day by accident?
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 14th, 2013, 5:34 PM
Definitely a solid idea. :yes:
Does somebody want to volunteer to do it consistently so we don't get 80 new threads every day by accident?
I'll do it but my "what if's" are mostly limited to WWE and WCW
I got an interesting one in mind
Kneeneighbor
March 14th, 2013, 5:56 PM
I would be up for starting the what ifs. Im around a lot and have a lot of time since I am teaching and breaks are right around the corner and then comes summer.
EDIT: Also my wrestling knowledge goes back through the 80's. My wheelhouse is 86-01
Matthew
March 14th, 2013, 6:10 PM
if someone wants matthew to do it matthew will do it
Matthew
March 14th, 2013, 6:10 PM
my wheelhouse is: the entire history of everything
kangus
March 14th, 2013, 6:53 PM
What if instead of being called Jake 'The Snake' Roberts he was Jake 'The Hippopotamus' Roberts and after every match let loose a wild hippopotamus on his opponents?
mth
March 14th, 2013, 6:54 PM
Then he'd probably be my favorite wrestler of all time.
chatty
March 14th, 2013, 7:11 PM
What if instead of being called Jake 'The Snake' Roberts he was Jake 'The Hippopotamus' Roberts and after every match let loose a wild hippopotamus on his opponents?
He probably would have been champion and still to this day by default of everyone being dead. Jake is probably the last person you would want babysitting a hippo tbf, im surprised there were no major mishaps with the snakes.
lotjx
March 14th, 2013, 7:23 PM
I think if HHH was healthy during Invasion, it would have made it worse. The ratings were already going down and I think Vince would have hit the panic button regardless. It would have lead to HHH leading team WWE instead of Kurt and to some extent Jericho. When Rock comes back, I have to wonder what would have happened. HHH is not going to give up that top spot and Rock is not coming back to play second fiddle. You may have seen Rock's last match being at WM X-8 if he isn't treated like a big deal which he was.
Matthew
March 14th, 2013, 7:52 PM
what if Laredo got the huge push he deserved?
ThE_GrEaT_GaM
March 15th, 2013, 12:55 AM
So What if Eric Bischof would've never labeled the cruiserweight division as "Boring" and such division still existed?
Would talents such as Tyson Kidd, Justin Gabriel, Sin Cara, John Morrison, Trent Baretta, Kaval, Juventud Guerrera (in WWE), etc have reached certain potential and not be so underutilized?
Would it take a Cruiserweight Championship reign so WWE could tap into Kidd's ability as a heel?
Would we get to see more of his slammy award antics with Kelly Kelly? Which I happen to find extremely hilarious?
Would all of the above have direction today?
QuoteTheRaven
March 15th, 2013, 1:10 AM
So What if Eric Bischof would've never labeled the cruiserweight division as "Boring" and such division still existed?
Would talents such as Tyson Kidd, Justin Gabriel, Sin Cara, John Morrison, Trent Baretta, Kaval, Juventud Guerrera (in WWE), etc have reached certain potential and not be so underutilized?
Would it take a Cruiserweight Championship reign so WWE could tap into Kidd's ability as a heel?
Would we get to see more of his slammy award antics with Kelly Kelly? Which I happen to find extremely hilarious?
Would all of the above have direction today?
I personally think that if the cruiserweights were still around, they would be in sorry state like the tag division was (and to a lesser extent, still is). All the good cruiserweights who were over would be elevated to the main event scene and the fans would probably see the belt as way below the US title and Intercontinental title, and they barely do anything to make those titles seem prestigious as it is.
This is all speculation, but I just don't think the division would be in great shape if it was around today.
McBain
March 15th, 2013, 1:50 AM
I'd probably agree with you on that.
The Law
March 16th, 2013, 1:36 AM
What if Bret Hart had never signed with WCW?
So Vince doesn't go back on Bret's contract in 1997. Bret doesn't get screwed at Survivor Series and instead he keeps the title until Wrestlemania 14, where he does the job to Austin. Maybe Wrestlemania 14 is a Triple Threat with Michaels because there's no big match for him otherwise. Of course, if Shawn isn't champion he doesn't face Taker at the Rumble and doesn't break his back. So Shawn doesn't go on the shelf after Wrestlemania.
After Bret loses to Austin, is there really anything left for him to do as a heel? Taker is occupied with Kane and the USA/Canada storyline has run its course. Bret isn't going to be Vince's handpicked challenger to Austin because Austin just kicked his ass. So I think Bret probably ends up turning face and spends most of his time working with some of the younger guys: we know he was close to Rock and high on him, so he probably puts him over. I could definitely see him doing some work with Triple H as long as they were on decent terms. Bret and Foley never worked together, that definitely would have been fun to see. For the most part I think Bret would have worked his last few years as a respected veteran upper-midcarder who put over young talent. He might have gotten the title again as they certainly traded it around a lot at that time, but I doubt he would ever been a long-term champion again. I would have loved to see him work with Jericho, Angle, the Radicalz, ect.
Also, if Bret doesn't get screwed Davey Boy and Neidhart don't leave for WCW. Davey Boy doesn't break his back on Warrior's trapdoor and get addicted to painkillers. Owen doesn't get talked into doing that stunt entrance at Over the Edge and doesn't die. Too bad Vince couldn't come up with the money to honor Bret's contract for just a few more months. By 1998 paying Bret $1 million/year would not have been any problem.
What if Ken Kennedy hadn't been screwed up/been screwed over?
So Kennedy is involved in a surprising number of What Ifs for a guy who never made it into the main event. He was always right on the verge of getting the big push and then fate would intervene. Let's start from the beginning:
-He was going to get the title in April 2007. Undertaker won the title at Wrestlemania but then got hurt. He had to dump the title and Kennedy was obviously the guy to take it since he had just won Money in the Bank. Unfortunately, Kennedy was hurt too. He went to see a specialist who told him he needed surgery. So they rushed a quick angle where he lost the Money in the Bank briefcase to Edge on Raw and Edge beat Undertaker instead. Turns out the first doctor was wrong and he wasn't actually hurt that bad. He could have worked through it and definitely would have to get the title.
Obviously if he had gotten the title he would have feuded with Batista, who was top face at the time and in the midst of an endless series of title shots. Edge beat Batista three PPVs in a row and was then set to defend the title against Kane when he got hurt. Then they put the title on Khali. Anyway, I don't think Kennedy would have held the title for that long. They probably would have had him retain against Batista once or twice before losing it to him. Then once Undertaker came back they would have had a ready-made feud. Regardless, he would have been an upper-midcarder/main eventer when he was healthy and not suspended.
-He was going to be the accomplice when Vince faked his death. Of course, they pulled the plug on this storyline after the Benoit murder/suicide. This would have been a huge storyline-presumably Kennedy would have become Vince's righthand man and ended up feuding with Shane, Stephanie, and eventually Triple H. I think Kennedy vs. Triple H would have been a big match at Wrestlemania 24. I think this would have been a very entertaining storyline and really helped get him over. You can't not get heat when you're hanging out with Vince McMahon. Solid chance he would have gotten a title run off this too. Feuded with Cena, the whole deal. Again, it would have depended on him staying healthy/not suspended, which he wasn't very good at.
-He was going to be Vince McMahon's illegitimate son. They drew this one up after they pulled the plug on the fake death angle. So the point here was to create the same storyline they were going to do before: Kennedy feuding with the other McMahons over who is the heir to WWE. Again, I like the idea and think it would have gotten over. UnfortunatelyKennedy was found to be a client of a pharmacy peddling steroids and suspended right before they revealed who the son was. So instead they substituted in Hornswaggle and proceeded to run an excruciatingly bad storyline over the next eight months. Eventually, it was revealed that Finlay was actually Hornswaggle's father and he was lying to Vince about it because... I have no idea. Anyway, we got a decent JBL/Finlay match at Wrestlemania out of it, but the storyline sucked overall.
-He was feuding with William Regal until Regal got suspended. For once, it wasn't Kennedy's fault. Kennedy was probably just a stepping stone for Regal, who was slated to feud with Triple H later that summer and possible get a title run after being King of the Ring. Instead, Regal failed a drug test and they blew it off on Raw. Kennedy had a lot of momentum as a face at this point and his ringwork was really improving. Unfortunately, he was robbed of being able to play the anti-authority role. And then they moved him to Smackdown and he got hurt again. And then they moved him to Raw and he dropped Randy Orton on his head in his first match back. So they fired him.
Kennedy's a good example of how sometimes things just go wrong. He's definitely talented, he's done some very good work in TNA. They believed in him, gave him a good character, pushed him hard, gave him major storylines... and it didn't work out through a combination of bad luck and bad choices on his part. I think he's living proof that it's harder than it seems to make a superstar.
McBain
March 16th, 2013, 1:53 AM
Really good read that was.:yes:
I wasn't really watching during Kennedy's WWE run, but the bits I did see of him entertained me. His TNA stuff hasn't really set the world alight, aside from his feud with Angle, but he has been pretty over at certain points - maybe now they're touring he'll get to shine a bit more in his promos.
The Law
March 16th, 2013, 3:37 PM
-What if Shawn Michaels hadn't stuck up for CM Punk?
This is a classic story about how things can go wrong in wrestling. It was January 2007 and CM Punk was being buried by the agents. They didn't like him, didn't like his attitude, and were doing everything they could to screw him over. They might have made it happen too, if Shawn Michaels didn't happen to be in one of the meetings where they were burying him. "If you don't like something he's doing, why don't you work with him to fix it rather than burying him?" Coming from someone other than Shawn Michaels, this might not have made any difference. Within a few months Punk went from jobbing to Bob Holly to being in the Money in the Bank Ladder Match at Wrestlemania. By the summer, he was being pushed as one of ECW's top guys and by the fall he was ECW Champion.
It's easy to see Punk washing out of WWE. He's not at all the conventional type of guy they like to push and even he would admit that he can be difficult to work with. That sounds like exactly the kind of guy who would make enemies in WWE and end up out the door quickly. At first he had Paul Heyman to protect him, but once Heyman got canned after December to Dismember it looked like he was done. I could easily see him getting buried and then asking for his release. And then what? Probably back to Ring of Honor. Maybe TNA eventually, although it's not like they used him well when they had him. Maybe he would have gotten another shot in WWE eventually, but it's easy to see him not accepting it after the way they screwed him over the first time.
Who fills Punk's role on the card? I can't really say. I don't think anyone else could have pulled off the "Summer of Punk" storyline. No one else would have held the title for a full year. I think the lack of Punk could have been to Danielson's gain, as he is quite similar in size and pedigree. Maybe Bryan and Cena feud in the summer of 2011? Maybe it's Daniel Bryan facing Undertaker at Wrestlemania this year? This one's a bit too hard to predict. There's not really anyone who can fill a CM Punk-sized hole in the card.
-What if Kevin Nash hadn't torn his quad in 2002?
The NWO was on life-support when Nash tore his quad on Raw in June 2002. They were down to Big Show, Nash, and Shawn Michaels (who wasn't wrestling at the time). However, it looked like they were on the verge of a rebirth as they were teasing Triple H joining the group. Triple H, Nash, Michaels, and Big Show definitely would have been a formidable group and been the center of Raw in 2002. I assume this would have resulted in HBK's return to the ring being delayed, as it always seemed like he came out of retirement earlier than planned because the NWO angle fizzled out prematurely. Instead, I could see the NWO running wild on Raw and Michaels not returning to face Triple H until as late as Wrestlemania 19.
You know who's a victim of this? Evolution. They were formed in January 2003 and I'm not sure it would have happened if the NWO angle was still humming along. I think Orton would have been fine, but Batista really didn't get over until early 2005 and I don't know that he would have caught on if he weren't merging from Triple H's shadow. Maybe Batista never gets over, never becomes a world champion. I think the NWO led by Triple H would have been a lot of fun, and we would have eventually gotten Michaels out of retirement and feuding with Triple H anyway.
-What if Edge hadn't had to retire?
I was always under the assumption that Christian was going to turn on Edge at Extreme Rules and cost him the World Heavyweight Championship against Del Rio. It definitely seemed like they were moving in that direction. Edge would have run with Christian until Summerslam or so in what I anticipate would have been a very entertaining feud. Meanwhile, Orton still would have jumped to Smackdown and feuded with Del Rio over the title. So who wins the Raw Money in the Bank match that year? Probably either Miz or Swagger. They needed a credible heel who could try to cash in on Punk that night and then successfully cash in at Summerslam. Swagger would probably be the better option as Miz ended up being part of the Awesome Truth storyline and Swagger wouldn't have fit that role as well. So we get Swagger vs. Cena at Night of Champions and then Swagger vs. Cena vs. Punk at Hell in a Cell. Meanwhile, Orton would have gotten the title from Del Rio and gone on to lose it to Mark Henry the way he did in reality. Where would Edge have been at Wrestlemania 28? Probably in one of the title matches, like he was every year. I could see him as the heel champion fighting Sheamus, or as a heel challenging CM Punk.
-What if Kevin Nash had been medically cleared to wrestle CM Punk in 2011?
This is a combination of conjecture based on what I've heard in shoot interviews and fantasy booking: They had a big storyline planned for fall 2011, part of which materialized and part of which got dropped. Nash was originally scheduled to face Punk at Night of Champions, but they pulled him because of concerns about heart medication he was taking. So instead they had to substitute in Triple H even though it was way too soon for him to fight Punk (they probably should have held off on that until Wrestlemania). Anyway, Nash was going to be part of a group led by Johnny Ace that was trying to take over the company. Johnny Ace would have been the one who texted Nash from Triple H's phone rather than Nash texting himself.
Who else would have been part of the group? Well, we did get some of this storyline: Miz and Truth became conspiracy theorists, started beating up everyone,and got fired. Nash would have been part of the group, because who knows more about hostile takeovers than Kevin Nash? Del Rio probably would have been the primary wrestler of the group, as Nash's interference at Summerslam benefited him. That's four guys, if you need a fifth Christian would make sense. He didn't really have anything to do after losing to Orton at Summerslam and was discontent with Triple H's refusal to give him "One more match." I think they could have run this until at least Survivor Series, where they could have done a five-on-five match for control of WWE: Triple H, Cena, CM Punk, Orton, and Rock vs. Del Rio, Nash, Miz, Truth, and Christian. Obviously Triple H's dream team would win, because look at the guys on that team. I'm not totally sure where it would have gone from there, as Punk would have unfinished business with both Cena and Triple H. This would have made more sense than what actually happened in fall 2011, but it wouldn't have fixed the fact that they messed up the Punk storyline after Money in the Bank.
Cewsh
March 16th, 2013, 3:41 PM
This is brilliant stuff, Law. Keep it up. :yes:
QuoteTheRaven
March 16th, 2013, 4:04 PM
-What if Kevin Nash had been medically cleared to wrestle CM Punk in 2011?
This is a combination of conjecture based on what I've heard in shoot interviews and fantasy booking: They had a big storyline planned for fall 2011, part of which materialized and part of which got dropped. Nash was originally scheduled to face Punk at Night of Champions, but they pulled him because of concerns about heart medication he was taking. So instead they had to substitute in Triple H even though it was way too soon for him to fight Punk (they probably should have held off on that until Wrestlemania). Anyway, Nash was going to be part of a group led by Johnny Ace that was trying to take over the company. Johnny Ace would have been the one who texted Nash from Triple H's phone rather than Nash texting himself.
Who else would have been part of the group? Well, we did get some of this storyline: Miz and Truth became conspiracy theorists, started beating up everyone,and got fired. Nash would have been part of the group, because who knows more about hostile takeovers than Kevin Nash? Del Rio probably would have been the primary wrestler of the group, as Nash's interference at Summerslam benefited him. That's four guys, if you need a fifth Christian would make sense. He didn't really have anything to do after losing to Orton at Summerslam and was discontent with Triple H's refusal to give him "One more match." I think they could have run this until at least Survivor Series, where they could have done a five-on-five match for control of WWE: Triple H, Cena, CM Punk, Orton, and Rock vs. Del Rio, Nash, Miz, Truth, and Christian. Obviously Triple H's dream team would win, because look at the guys on that team. I'm not totally sure where it would have gone from there, as Punk would have unfinished business with both Cena and Triple H. This would have made more sense than what actually happened in fall 2011, but it wouldn't have fixed the fact that they messed up the Punk storyline after Money in the Bank.
The bold/underlined part is what stuck out to me. A heel stable led by Johnny Ace trying to tear the company away from the McMahons would have been cool to see. It certainly does seems were looking to go that way. During HHH's time as the WWE on-screen authority figure (I forget what his title was), it was heavily hinted that SOMETHING was going on behind the screens, pulling strings to disrupt the harmony of the WWE. Lawler even said something to that effect during HHH's "Performance Evaluation" or whatever that was. Seemed like things were shaping up for something awesome, or at least something. Instead the whole thing kinda seemed fumbled and dropped.
Damn, that's a bigger what if than originally thought.
StoneColdChris
March 16th, 2013, 4:18 PM
-What if Edge hadn't had to retire?
I was always under the assumption that Christian was going to turn on Edge at Extreme Rules and cost him the World Heavyweight Championship against Del Rio. It definitely seemed like they were moving in that direction. Edge would have run with Christian until Summerslam or so in what I anticipate would have been a very entertaining feud. Meanwhile, Orton still would have jumped to Smackdown and feuded with Del Rio over the title. So who wins the Raw Money in the Bank match that year? Probably either Miz or Swagger. They needed a credible heel who could try to cash in on Punk that night and then successfully cash in at Summerslam. Swagger would probably be the better option as Miz ended up being part of the Awesome Truth storyline and Swagger wouldn't have fit that role as well. So we get Swagger vs. Cena at Night of Champions and then Swagger vs. Cena vs. Punk at Hell in a Cell. Meanwhile, Orton would have gotten the title from Del Rio and gone on to lose it to Mark Henry the way he did in reality. Where would Edge have been at Wrestlemania 28? Probably in one of the title matches, like he was every year. I could see him as the heel champion fighting Sheamus, or as a heel challenging CM Punk.
If Edge didnt retire, they wouldnt have moved Orton over. Plus the draft was moved up because they went into panic mode due to Edge's departure.
The fued with Punk probably would have continued, and Orton probably would have lost at Extreme Rules instead. I remember reports of the Orton/Punk fued was going to go longer and get personal, but it never happened.
lotjx
March 16th, 2013, 4:35 PM
What if Bret Hart had never signed with WCW?
So Vince doesn't go back on Bret's contract in 1997. Bret doesn't get screwed at Survivor Series and instead he keeps the title until Wrestlemania 14, where he does the job to Austin. Maybe Wrestlemania 14 is a Triple Threat with Michaels because there's no big match for him otherwise. Of course, if Shawn isn't champion he doesn't face Taker at the Rumble and doesn't break his back. So Shawn doesn't go on the shelf after Wrestlemania.
After Bret loses to Austin, is there really anything left for him to do as a heel? Taker is occupied with Kane and the USA/Canada storyline has run its course. Bret isn't going to be Vince's handpicked challenger to Austin because Austin just kicked his ass. So I think Bret probably ends up turning face and spends most of his time working with some of the younger guys: we know he was close to Rock and high on him, so he probably puts him over. I could definitely see him doing some work with Triple H as long as they were on decent terms. Bret and Foley never worked together, that definitely would have been fun to see. For the most part I think Bret would have worked his last few years as a respected veteran upper-midcarder who put over young talent. He might have gotten the title again as they certainly traded it around a lot at that time, but I doubt he would ever been a long-term champion again. I would have loved to see him work with Jericho, Angle, the Radicalz, ect.
Also, if Bret doesn't get screwed Davey Boy and Neidhart don't leave for WCW. Davey Boy doesn't break his back on Warrior's trapdoor and get addicted to painkillers. Owen doesn't get talked into doing that stunt entrance at Over the Edge and doesn't die. Too bad Vince couldn't come up with the money to honor Bret's contract for just a few more months. By 1998 paying Bret $1 million/year would not have been any problem.
I think that Austin wouldn't be that over. Something had to give with the Shawn/Bret backstage shenanigans. Call it fate, call it destiny, call it whatever, but for the WWE to succeed, they both had to go. If either one stayed after WM 14, Austin wouldn't be as big as he was. It wouldn't have left them with Foley as the only real option to face him next and have two amazing matches as well as continue the McMahon storyline. Maybe WCW would have sabotaged themselves or they pick up HBK and Shawn becomes what Bret became in WCW only Shawn makes the locker room more toxic. Add in HHH and you would have DX maybe invading on top of the NWO. In the end, I think WWE survives to some extant, but just not as huge as it was. WCW probably makes more money with Shawn than Bret, but I have a large amounts of doubts if HBK gets healthy during this time. The plus side, Owen and Davey are still with us, Shawn on the other hand and maybe even Scott Hall, I doubt it.
lotjx
March 16th, 2013, 5:16 PM
-What if Shawn Michaels hadn't stuck up for CM Punk?
This is a classic story about how things can go wrong in wrestling. It was January 2007 and CM Punk was being buried by the agents. They didn't like him, didn't like his attitude, and were doing everything they could to screw him over. They might have made it happen too, if Shawn Michaels didn't happen to be in one of the meetings where they were burying him. "If you don't like something he's doing, why don't you work with him to fix it rather than burying him?" Coming from someone other than Shawn Michaels, this might not have made any difference. Within a few months Punk went from jobbing to Bob Holly to being in the Money in the Bank Ladder Match at Wrestlemania. By the summer, he was being pushed as one of ECW's top guys and by the fall he was ECW Champion.
It's easy to see Punk washing out of WWE. He's not at all the conventional type of guy they like to push and even he would admit that he can be difficult to work with. That sounds like exactly the kind of guy who would make enemies in WWE and end up out the door quickly. At first he had Paul Heyman to protect him, but once Heyman got canned after December to Dismember it looked like he was done. I could easily see him getting buried and then asking for his release. And then what? Probably back to Ring of Honor. Maybe TNA eventually, although it's not like they used him well when they had him. Maybe he would have gotten another shot in WWE eventually, but it's easy to see him not accepting it after the way they screwed him over the first time.
Who fills Punk's role on the card? I can't really say. I don't think anyone else could have pulled off the "Summer of Punk" storyline. No one else would have held the title for a full year. I think the lack of Punk could have been to Danielson's gain, as he is quite similar in size and pedigree. Maybe Bryan and Cena feud in the summer of 2011? Maybe it's Daniel Bryan facing Undertaker at Wrestlemania this year? This one's a bit too hard to predict. There's not really anyone who can fill a CM Punk-sized hole in the card.
Punk goes to TNA and him and Joe tear it up til Christian or Kurt show up then it become same old, same old TNA. To be fair, Punk leaving means maybe R-Truth or Miz or someone else takes that sport or they go back to the Orton/Cena well. WWE is still in business, it just has less of a buzz due to the pipe bomb, but that went away as soon as Nash powerbombed him.
Spoonman
March 17th, 2013, 12:16 AM
If Brian Pillman hadn't had that Humvee crash in 1996 he wouldn't have taken all the meds that was a massive contributing factor in his death. He'd have been up there with Austin, Rock and Triple H as one of THE top stars on the Attitude Era. The guy had it all: great in the ring (before the crash obviously), phenomenal promo and a more conving psycho than just about anybody in the business before or since.
The Law
March 18th, 2013, 1:36 PM
What if WWECW hadn't been cursed?
WWE management put a surprising amount of effort into making the new ECW a success. They gave them three legitimate main eventers at the beginning: Rob Van Dam, Kurt Angle, and Big Show. Combined with Sabu, Dreamer, and Sandman you had a very strong roster. Throw in CM Punk, who was about to debut, and the other new breed guys (Matt Striker, Kevin Thorne, Elijah Burke) and it could actually be pretty awesome. Paul Heyman was booking. Obviously, Heyman is a compulsive liar, a dirtbag, and a terrible businessman. But he knows how to book a wrestling show, which he showed during his time on ECW and his time booking Smackdown. They gave them a great launching pad: the awesome One Night Stand 2006 show, which saw RVD pin Cena, Angle make Orton tap out, and ECW generally look very strong.
And then everything fell apart. Van Dam and Sabu got pulled over while smoking weed. Goodbye Van Dam, and goodbye WWE championship. Sabu was also suspended. Then Angle tore his groin and his pill popping got out of control. He refused to go to rehab, and WWE fired him. Goodbye, workhorse. They tried to salvage this about as well as they could, but there wasn't much they could do. I feel like Vince wrote the brand off right about the time they released Angle. He no longer had any interest in pushing RVD or Sabu and has never gotten along with Heyman.
This could have been a pretty awesome brand. In the beginning, it legitimately felt different from other WWE shows. It was shot different, had a much grittier feel (tiny entrance way coming through the crowd), and the shows generally weren't structured like Raw or Smackdown. If RVD doesn't get suspended, how long does he hold the title? Probably not much longer. I think they were building to RVD/Cena II at Summerslam where Cena would have won back the title. I feel like Big Show being the heel face of ECW and Heyman's guy was always part of the plan. That was a good storyline, with RVD chasing the title and Heyman throwing up roadblocks. Meanwhile, you have Angle tearing it up on the undercard (he was doing really good work at this time. He was starting to use more MMA-type stuff). Sabu was always good for entertaining TV matches. Punk vs. Angle? That sounds awesome. There were also rumors that Benoit was going to return to ECW in 2006. Not sure if there was any truth to that, but it would have been great regardless of whether or not Angle was still there.
Which brings us to December to Dismember. They could have put on a perfectly fine card. Big Show vs. RVD in the main event, with Van Dam finally winning back the ECW title. Punk vs. Angle, Hardcore Holly vs. Sabu, Dreamer vs. Test, Sandman vs. Matt Striker. That's a perfectly acceptable PPV card. It wouldn't have set the world on fire buyrate wise, but it wouldn't have been a total disaster. Instead, they throw all of their talent into the Elimination Chamber and only announce one other match before the show. We have the single worst PPV in WWE history and the end of Heyman's run as booker.
So what would have happened after D2D? If I were them I would have built towards RVD vs. CM Punk at Wrestlemania 23. Punk could turn heel, blast RVD for being a druggie, and also proclaim himself superior to any of the ECW originals. After Punk won the title at Wrestlemania, you have ready-made feuds for him: he can run through Dreamer, Sandman, and Sabu, proving his superiority. Eventually, they can bring in Mick Foley to defend the honor of the old ECW. Of course, he would have lost too since Mick Foley never beats anyone. Right about the time Punk is claiming that there's no one from the old ECW who could beat him, they have the draft and Benoit moves over. And we have another three months of top-quality stuff.
What if Iron Sheik had taken Greg Gagne's money and shot on Hogan?
This is Sheik's claim, so take it with a grain of salt: Sheik says Greg Gagne offered him a ton of money to shoot on Hulk Hogan and break Hogan's legs rather than dump the WWF title to him in January 1984. Sheik was ridiculously strong and I get the feeling he could have hurt Hogan pretty badly if he caught him by surprise. So let's say he breaks Hogan's legs in a double-cross. Sheik would obviously have been fired and stripped of the WWF Title. Sheik may or may not have faced criminal charges (would they have been willing to expose the business?). Sheik would have ended up in the AWA once the heat cooled off. Hogan would have been out and had to heel. I don't know if his credibility would have survived being destroyed by Sheik.
Who would have been WWF's top face without Hogan? I guess Paul Orndorff is the obvious choice. He had the body and the look, although he didn't have Hogan's charisma. I can't see Wrestlemania I being headlined by Ornorff and Mr. T against Piper and Bob Orton. I think this is similar to the "what if Hogan hadn't left AWA?" question. WWF's national expansion was probably inevitable, but it would have been delayed without Hogan. Instead, Savage probably would have been the top guy as they went national. Basically, take Hogan's career and replace it with Savage: Savage slams Andre the Giant, Savage loses the title to Warrior, Savage jumps to WCW and becomes the face of their company in 1994. Would Savage have been the leader of the NWO? It would have made sense. Savage was also a better wrestler than Hogan and would have put on much better matches in WCW's main event. He was also much less egotistical and more willing to put over young talent. WCW would have been better off in this scenario, but I still don't think they would have survived.
What if Matt Hardy hadn't screwed up/WWE hadn't screwed up Matt Hardy?
Matt Hardy was probably the hottest thing in wrestling in summer 2005. He got loads of sympathy after he was fired for speaking out on Edge stealing Lita from him. Fans were chanting "we want Matt" every week at Raw. When he returned, he got a thunderous pop. He was introduced by Vince McMahon. And then he started talking. Matt's return promo was really pretty terrible. He had months to prepare for it, it was the biggest moment of his career, and he didn't deliver. He was awkward and petty and generally came off as a bit of a dick. Okay, talking was never his strong point. Him fighting Edge at Summerslam was a sure thing, right? Nope. Edge kicked his ass. Like, repeatedly kicked him in the head until the match was stopped. So Edge stole his girlfriend, got him fired, and then beats him in the match. Why is anyone supposed to care about Matt Hardy? I guess they weren't. WWE wasn't really interested in pushing him. Eventually, Edge beat him to win the feud and Matt went to Smackdown. Edge went on to become world champion, Matt did some nice stuff in the midcard but never got a chance at the main event.
Matt could have been a big deal if handled properly. First, he needed to cut better promos. That might not have been possible, but maybe keeping him away from a live mic as much as possible would have been a good idea. Then he needed to actually get some heat on Edge. Who can't sympathize with a guy kicking the ass of a guy who stole his girlfriend? It's like Austin/McMahon for scorned males. I understand they had big plans for Edge, but him losing to Hardy wouldn't have set him back that much. I would have moved Matt to Smackdown once the feud ended. Get him away from Edge, get him on the wrestling show where his promos aren't as big a deal. His character really should have been similar to Punk in 2011: truth-telling anti-corporate rebel. How far could this have gone? Matt might have been the guy to get the title when Batista got hurt. I don't think he necessarily had the talent to pull this off, but he was definitely handicapped by how they handled him.
Spoonman
March 18th, 2013, 1:40 PM
What if WWECW hadn't been cursed?
"Cursed"? Is that another word to describe Vince McMahon's vindictive streak?
Matt could have been a big deal if handled properly.
He never deserved to be anything more than a midcarder IMO.
The Law
March 18th, 2013, 2:15 PM
Like I said, you can't complain about the amount of resources they invested in ECW originally: they gave them RVD, Big Show, and Angle. All three of those guys were former/current world champions and legitimate main eventers. They also put together a solid roster. You can't blame Vince for RVD and Sabu getting pulled over while smoking weed. Angle's injury and subsequent painkiller abuse/refusal to go to rehab doesn't really have anything to do with Vince wanting ECW to fail. Three of their top four guys were gone within the first few weeks of the show debuting. That's hard to come back from.
But they still tried: they had Big Show beat or at least hold his own against Flair, Batista, Kane, and Undertaker. He also feuded with Cena and Booker when they were world champions, putting the ECW title on equal footing with the other championships. This comes on top of the fact that RVD beat John Cena at Extreme Rules and Edge at Vengeance. They were definitely trying to make the show succeed as a legitimate third brand and recreation of the old ECW at first. Of course, they lost interest within a few months and after D2D they scrapped any semblance of the old ECW. But still, I think it would have been really good if not for Angle's injury/release and the RVD/Sabu incident. Benoit's murder/suicide was another final nail, as I think him and Punk feuding for the ECW Title would have kept the show from becoming a true minor league in the way it did after they lost Benoit.
Spoonman
March 18th, 2013, 2:56 PM
Like I said, you can't complain about the amount of resources they invested in ECW originally: they gave them RVD, Big Show, and Angle. All three of those guys were former/current world champions and legitimate main eventers. They also put together a solid roster. You can't blame Vince for RVD and Sabu getting pulled over while smoking weed. Angle's injury and subsequent painkiller abuse/refusal to go to rehab doesn't really have anything to do with Vince wanting ECW to fail. Three of their top four guys were gone within the first few weeks of the show debuting. That's hard to come back from.
But they still tried: they had Big Show beat or at least hold his own against Flair, Batista, Kane, and Undertaker. He also feuded with Cena and Booker when they were world champions, putting the ECW title on equal footing with the other championships. This comes on top of the fact that RVD beat John Cena at Extreme Rules and Edge at Vengeance. They were definitely trying to make the show succeed as a legitimate third brand and recreation of the old ECW at first. Of course, they lost interest within a few months and after D2D they scrapped any semblance of the old ECW. But still, I think it would have been really good if not for Angle's injury/release and the RVD/Sabu incident. Benoit's murder/suicide was another final nail, as I think him and Punk feuding for the ECW Title would have kept the show from becoming a true minor league in the way it did after they lost Benoit.
It was always going to fail from the start because it was built on a flimsy foundation. A lot of the appeal of the original ECW is that it was the alternative to the WWF and WCW. The fact that Vince McMahon owned it was always going to make it succeeding basically impossible no matter what they did. But they didn't do any favours with what they done with it. One Night Stand was a good start with what they needed to do to to stand the best chance. It was never going to be the original ECW but they could have maintained the appearance and content as much as possible. They didn't. They brought in big name WWE guys to give it star power. It was never going to be "an alternative". It was always going to be a distant third in terms of importance.
You're also basing this on the talent used. It's not about the talent. it's about the fact that guys like Angle and The Big Show, while being big names to attach to the brand aren't "ECW guys" they were true, 100% big league names that didn't represent ECW in the slightest. They should have used guys who were original ECW talent and integrated guys from developmental like CM Punk who weren't yet established within WWE. . . They also took the money-saving step of holding ECW tapings before SmackDown. Another huge mistake. Firstly because it was often inside a large arena which didn't suit the ECW vibe. Secondly because the audience were mainly WWE fans who saw ECW as a 'bonus'. They weren't the kind of smark (and in many cases nerdy elitist dickheads) that populated the ECW arena back in the day.
Vince McMahon doesn't like gimmicks or people who he feels are the brainchild of somebody else. I could give dozens of examples over the past thirty years. It sometimes appears that in spite of them now belonging to him he is almost willful in their failure. Whether he actually is or not is open to debate. It certainly wouldn't be logical. But it would feed his ego. Why else would Goldberg, nWo, the WCW invasion, DDP, Chris Harris and Vader all fail to varying degrees within the WWE like they did? Vince's biggest loves are the things that he can call all his: WrestleMania, The Rock, Triple H, the Elimination Chamber. . . People, gimmick and things that are the brainchild of another certainly aren't his priority. . . I'm not saying that he WANTED ECW to fail. But if he had people in his ear telling him that the ECW 'brand' could potentially draw him money (which I'm sure he did), he'll give it a shot, of course he will. But that doesn't mean that he'll be doing it with any real vigour or making the right steps to make it succeed.
WWE's interpretation of ECW was always destined to fail. If they'd have stuck to the blueprint laid out at the ONS PPV they might have had a marginal chance of making it last but that would only be marginal because the nostalgia had already peaked and that's all the ECW revival was buil on: nostalgia. Which is ironic since many of the people who were being nostalgic about it weren't even watching it the first time, but there you go.
Tainted Eclipse
March 18th, 2013, 3:04 PM
WWECW was awesome though. shows title reign was great, their 2008 was pretty damn good, and their 2009 was absolutely phenomenal. i'll take the full year of an ecw headed by christian and william regal over a hypothetical ecw headed by angle and rvd any day.
Jacknife
March 18th, 2013, 3:13 PM
What do you think Droz would have become in the WWE? Fired eventually?
lotjx
March 18th, 2013, 4:31 PM
It is amazing that Swagger gets busted for the exact same thing and still has a title shot at the biggest PPV of the year. I guess RVD wasn't as controversial enough in the right way
Beer-Belly
March 18th, 2013, 4:35 PM
I think that Austin wouldn't be that over. Something had to give with the Shawn/Bret backstage shenanigans. Call it fate, call it destiny, call it whatever, but for the WWE to succeed, they both had to go. If either one stayed after WM 14, Austin wouldn't be as big as he wasNo. Austin was going to be a huge star no matter what happened. If a broken neck didn't stop him, then Michaels acting like a bitch wouldn't either.
Peter Griffin
March 18th, 2013, 5:11 PM
It is amazing that Swagger gets busted for the exact same thing and still has a title shot at the biggest PPV of the year. I guess RVD wasn't as controversial enough in the right way
Wasn't Sabu's crack stash also found in the car? not quite the same if so.
Cewsh
March 18th, 2013, 5:18 PM
Just a crack pipe. No actual crack.
chatty
March 24th, 2013, 1:00 PM
What if Bret had joined the Clique when asked?
Cewsh
March 24th, 2013, 3:01 PM
When was he asked? I've never heard that.
kangus
March 24th, 2013, 3:02 PM
March 5th 1996 1:34 pm beside a vending machine.
Matthew
March 24th, 2013, 3:14 PM
hey man you wanna join the clique
kangus
March 24th, 2013, 3:23 PM
Bret Hart responded by saying no thanks eh. He then told shawn to wipe the coke off his nose, pressed B 7 on the vending machine, took his salt and vinegar chips and walked away. Fact.
The Law
March 24th, 2013, 7:16 PM
I haven't read Hart's book, but I've found a few different sites online quoting his book saying he was asked to be part of The Kliq when it was first formed. Here's the quote I found:
"Back on the bus in Europe. Davey and I worked tags all over Germany and the U.K. with Owen and Jim. The thing I remember most about that tour was Shawn, Razor and Nash talking to me in Hamburg about the idea of forming a clique of top guys who strictly took care of their own. This was what Buddy Rogers did in the 1950s, working only with his selected clique to get him over, so they could monopolize the cash flow. These boys wanted me to be the leader, to voice concerns pertaining to the group as a whole. Even though they were my friends, I couldn�t see it, and with the exception of Nash, their degree of pill popping was something I didn�t want to be around. I told them, 'Ultimately everybody has to work their way to the top all by themselves. If someone can outperform me, every night in every part of the world, then go ahead, step up and do it!'"
The length of Bret's feud with Shawn is consistently overestimated. All accounts indicate that they got along fine and were actually friends up until the aftermath of Wrestlemania 12. Bret started trashing Shawn in the dirtsheets as part of a worked shoot to set-up a rematch. Some of the stuff he said pissed Shawn off (mostly comments about how Shawn's parents should be ashamed of him). Tensions escalated when Bret came back and Shawn pulled out of Wrestlemania 13 with his knee injury. Bret thought Shawn could have worked the match and that he was only pulling out because he didn't want to job to Bret. Things really went off the rails when Bret screwed up and a Shawn/Bret segment went off-air before Shawn could superkick Bret. The plan was for Bret to trash Shawn on the mic for awhile and then Shawn to drop him with the superkick. Bret went on too long and Raw went off-air before Shawn got to kick him. Shawn flipped out and the next week on Raw he commented that Bret had been having "a lot of Sunny days" recently, implying Bret was having an affair with Sunny. The week after that Shawn and Bret fought backstage (Bret tore a chunk of Shawn's hair out, Jim Cornette tells this story in hysterical fashion in a shoot interview).
So that was a long-winded way of saying that Bret joining The Kliq wouldn't have been a totally unreasonable thing to happen. I think potentially this could have prevented the Montreal Screwjob. The Shawn/Bret feud started because Shawn and Bret weren't close enough friends to actually talk to each other when Bret wasn't on the road. If they had been closer, Shawn would have just told Bret to tone down the stuff he was saying about him and their feud could have been avoided. Bret wouldn't job the title to Shawn at Survivor Series because Shawn had told him before that he wouldn't put him over. Again, if they don't hate each other Bret most likely would have just laid down for Shawn. I don't think this really changes much about wrestling history other than the fact that Bret would have able to come back to WWE much sooner if he and Vince weren't enemies. Unfortunately Bret was forced to retire before that could happen, so it wouldn't matter much anyway.
Bluegunn
March 24th, 2013, 10:44 PM
What do you think Droz would have become in the WWE? Fired eventually?
Droz did not have much going with him. He would have been released.
Bluegunn
March 24th, 2013, 10:51 PM
What if the Radicalz stayed and not jump to WWE? Do you think Vince would have kept all 4 for the invasion?
chatty
March 25th, 2013, 9:20 AM
yeah, pretty much where Law got it from, I think I read it in his book but I also think I've heard it mentioned other places before (maybes an interview).
I'm not sure it would have made a huge difference but if he had joined I wonder if a Bret/Shawn Klique would have led to guys like Austin being held down a little longer. If it wasn;t for those two feuding I could see Vince getting Hart to stay without giving hi a silly 20 year contract and not having as much backstage disruptance. We would likely have got Hart/Shawn at 13 and possibly wouldn't have moved in the direction of a new Hatt Foundation.
I don't think it would have made huge differences but a lot of little things that would ultimately change the shape of WWEs progression into the Attitude era.
Cewsh
March 25th, 2013, 10:58 AM
Well I think it's important to note that even if Bret had joined the Kliq, he and Shawn would have had a falling out anyway. They had a tremendous amount of respect for each other and were good friends in the early 90s anyway, and that didn't stop what happened from happening.
chatty
March 25th, 2013, 11:06 AM
Well I think it's important to note that even if Bret had joined the Kliq, he and Shawn would have had a falling out anyway. They had a tremendous amount of respect for each other and were good friends in the early 90s anyway, and that didn't stop what happened from happening.
Yeah true, I was going to say at the end, ego's would have probably got in the way down the road anyway as both wanted to be the main man.
Stringer Bell
March 27th, 2013, 2:49 AM
I'm sure someone has already mentioned it but what if RVD and Sabu hadn't got pulled over with the WEEDS?
RVD was still awesome in the ring, and they had built his heat back up with an awesome program and win over Cena. He, Cena, and Edge were putting on amazing matches every week and there's no reason they couldn't have ran with him through the summer.
The Red Spider
March 27th, 2013, 8:03 AM
If he hadn't, he'd probably be pulled over for it sometime down the track.
I think that given RVD's popularity in 2001 during the invasion angle, if they weren't going to pull the trigger on him then, then they weren't ever seriously going to make him their top guy at any point in time. And yes I'm aware of the fact that he was champion during the time he, Cena and Edge were rockin' an angle, but it was for a very limited season and at no point did I personally feel like he was ever actually the top star.
The reason why I bring up how hot he was in 2001 is because I'd argue it was his greatest year for matches in WWE, he wasn't stale, nor was he mailing in performances at that point in time, he had consistently strong reactions from the crowd and sat close towards the top of the card around October 2001. You could argue that they wouldn't want to detract from their long-term plans by hotshotting the belt to him, however it was never really in their intention to make Kurt Angle champion that year (and yet it happened, at Unforgiven).
I imagine he'd have been pushed back down into the midcard, feuding with the likes of Carlito and teaming with Rey Mysterio.
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