Is CM Punk Overrated?

[Cewsh]

In the News and Notes Thread, we've been having a discussion that appears to revolve mostly around whether or not CM Punk is merely very good in the ring, or is the second coming of the lord and savior with magical wrestling powers. The relevant posts have gone like this, and please feel free to chip in your thoughts on CM Punk at this point in his career as well.


I'd say he's easily on the level of Jericho, probably Michaels and Austin too. He is a ridiculous talent.


Hm, I'd still put prime HBK above Punk in in-ring skills and prime Austin above him both in-ring and promo wise.


Punk is pretty flawless in the ring so I don't know how you could so convincingly declare that HBK and Austin were better.

Promo-wise, yeah Austin had him beat. Michaels certainly didn't though.


Promo wise, Punk is fantastic. But he is far, far, far from flawless in the ring.


That I can agree on, I'd actually rank him above HBK when it comes to promos. In-ring I easily have both Michaels and Austin above him though.


I'd say Austin has him beat in both categories, and HBK is way ahead of him in the ring.

He probably ties with Jericho.



Punk is incapable of having a bad match, with anyone. I think a few of you are discrediting him quite a bit.


I like CM Punk a ton and rate him hugely as a performer. But he's had more than his share of bad matches.


- Any match with Elijah Burke
- The street fight with Chris Jericho
- His feud with the Big Show on Smackdown
- The cage match with Raven
- Everything TNA and IWA:MS related

These are spread out through his career as I just added what jumped to mind, but the guy isn't a perfect performer. He can be a bit sloppy and inconsistent, and needs his opponent to be good as well in order to make things work properly.


Discrediting him quite a bit. :lol:

It's hardly like we're saying he's crap now is it?



Yeah, I rate him highly it's just that Austin and Michaels are two of the best WWF/E performers of all time.


Talking about the Extreme Rules match right? Glad to see I wasn't the only one who didn't like that match.


I thought the ER match was alright, it just lacked something that I couldn't put my finger on. Can't remember it properly now but I think it was rather slow till the finish and then it picked up but ended a bit prematurely. I'll have to watch it again though.


I just want to share that I didn't like how at the end of the Punk/Cena foot on the ropes match a few weeks ago Punk immediately no-sold the wear and tear of the entire match and became outraged at the ref missing his foot on the ropes. I mean in that situation I think Punk, who just prior was on the wrong end of a AA, would be completely spent and disoriented and although he could probably OUT OF INSTINCT put his foot on the rope he'd be in no position to argue about it right away. I notice the little things :squint:


punk is my current favorite wrestler and my second favorite wrestler of all time, but he's not prone to having a 'meh' match now and again. i wasn't a huge fan of his matches with jericho this year, especially the street fight. his match with orton at wrestlemania last year didn't exactly light my world on fire either. his matches with undertaker, especially the hell in the cell, wouldn't really rate highly for me, as well. but with that said, his matches with john cena are some of my favorites of the last decade, possibly of all time, i loved the rey mysterio match from mania two years ago and all his stuff with jeff hardy was pretty brilliant. when he's on and clicking with his opponent, he's absolutely tremendous. he'll always give his utmost effort and you can't make a case for him being 'lazy' in the ring, but sometimes the stars just don't align.


Totally agree with this. When I think about it, I dont even know how his in ring abillity came to be rated so highly in the first place. Maybe it was those series of matches with Samoa Joe, I dunno.

Punk's in ring ability is ok at best for me, and this has nothing to do with being a great technical wrestler like Daniel Bryan is. His timing in the ring isnt anywhere near the likes of Eddie Guerrero or Rey Mysterio, he doesnt get me emotionally invested in a match like The Rock or HBK could, and he cant brawl as well as someone like Austin.

But he's able to hang with the best, and knows how to talk people into believing that his match matters, which goes a long way towards getting people to give a damn about him.

EDIT
Maybe saying he's "ok" was harsh. For me he's not in the same league as the people listed above.

[Morrison]

until he has a truly great, truly memorable match at wrestlemania, i think you could make the case for him being overrated in the ring. i know lots of people really like the match with jericho from this year, but i'm not one of them, and i'd laugh at anybody who tries to put it up there with hbk/hart, austin/rock, warrior/savage, steamboat/savage or the hbk/taker's from the history of the show.

i said it almost immediately after he turned heel again and started going on about respect and attacking lawler, that it was the beginning of the set-up for him facing austin at mania. it looks like it's heading that way for real, and it's his best shot so far to have a truly outstanding wrestlemania moment that tests time and looks good in a video package.

[Hero!]

I love his heel character. The change in look to the shaved down hair, wearing hoodies, and now wearing shorts again helps to set him apart from his face "voice of the voiceless" character.

Gotta love the meanstreak too. Threatening to beat up an injured Cena, and then JR, and then Vince. He shows no fear or intimidation when faced with opponents that he knows are at a disadvantage to him, but then he fears Ryback, who is an absolute machine of a man that Punk doesn't KNOW he can beat. Great chicknshit heel work.

[Tainted Eclipse]

As an all around talent, no. Great character, great on the mic, huge charisma. Punk has always climbed to the top and established for himself a certain special position in just about every promotion he was heavily involved in, and it's no accident. Punk's a guy that has "it".

In the ring, probably. I don't know how people are rating him these days. He wasn't too good til around 2009, but since then has improved tremendously. What I've seen of him recently I've generally liked but there's a whole bunch of people I'd rank above him.

I would rank Punk over Michaels, but anyone who knows my tastes knows that's not a shining compliment. I'd rank him over Austin too, lately I've been considering Austin to be tremendously overrated in the ring. For some other random comparisons with WWE guys, I'd rate him below Cena and Henry as an in ring talent.

[Hero!]

Below Henry wtf tainted. That's batshit, even for you.

[Cewsh]

Sure, sure. Henry is naturally better than Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin. Absolutely.

[Tainted Eclipse]

lets not be silly guys. i've written on this shit at length, i think it's time to not be surprised when i say mark henry is better than wrestlers held in higher esteem by the internet.

[Tainted Eclipse]

i should say punk at his best is up there with henry and cena. but he has more flaws than both overall.

[DDT]

I don't know about above Austin, but Henry's big heel run on Smackdown was more entertaining to me than almost anything non-Undertaker related that Shawn Michaels has done. But then, I'm a weirdo who has never liked Michaels all that much.

But yeah, Punk is very good, but definitely over-rated. One of the most jarring things about him is that he has been incredibly sloppy his entire career, and yet it somehow gets passed over/blamed on his opponent. Example being the MITB match against Cena; Punk fucks up a springboard crossbody and lands on Cena's knee. Cena is clearly in pain, but shakes it off and continues to wrestle. The next day smarks are all going, "WTF didn't sell the knee lol Cena sucks".

[Cewsh]

lets not be silly guys. i've written on this shit at length, i think it's time to not be surprised when i say mark henry is better than wrestlers held in higher esteem by the internet.

My reaction wasn't one of surprise, Tainted.

[Hero!]

Tainted, wot r u doing


i should say punk at his best is up there with henry and cena.

TAINTED


but he has more flaws than both overall.

STAHP

[Defrost]

I think the question depends on who you ask. His most ardent supporters way overrate him. Just watch that video game deal he did with Austin and Austin blew him away as a promo in that. He can have good matches. Randomly great matches all the time with Cena which is weird. Great promo guy as a heel. Always thought he was a shit babyface.

[MichaelC]

Like I said on Twitter, Cewshter, CM Punk is Edge. A better merch selling Edge.

Nowt wrong with that.


PS A bit harsh on Elijah Burke - some of their matches were quite good.

[Ringo]

Yeah, Tainted made his feelings pretty clear in the list thread in Gen Wrestling. I actually think Hero posted in that thread.

[Tainted Eclipse]

My reaction wasn't one of surprise, Tainted.

yes it was mindless sarcasm repeated for the 500 millionth time of the same sort you become indignant against when people dismiss your unpopular opinions out of hand. stop being dumb.

[Cewsh]

Like I said on Twitter, Cewshter, CM Punk is Edge. A better merch selling Edge.

Nowt wrong with that.


PS A bit harsh on Elijah Burke - some of their matches were quite good.

Yeah, I agreed with you at the time. There are a lot of paralleled in terms of their roles in the company and that characters they can play between Edge and Punk.

And Punk and Burke had some of the worst chemistry I've ever seen between two wrestlers. The miscommunication was horrid.


Yeah, Tainted made his feelings pretty clear in the list thread in Gen Wrestling. I actually think Hero posted in that thread.

Oh yeah, the greatest wrestler list thread. That thread was incredible. Loved those discussions.

[Hero!]

Yeah, Tainted made his feelings pretty clear in the list thread in Gen Wrestling. I actually think Hero posted in that thread.

If i did, i probably didnt read any of this lunacy about Henry over Punk.

[Cewsh]

yes it was mindless sarcasm repeated for the 500 millionth time of the same sort you become indignant against when people dismiss your unpopular opinions out of hand. stop being dumb.

Sarcasm isn't really my game, though I did employ it here lazily, I'll agree. That's mostly because I've been trying for years to tell if you were doing an elaborate troll job or just had a way of viewing wrestling matches that was philosophically so totally different from mine that it's like we share different senses.

[Ringo]

Oh yeah, the greatest wrestler list thread. That thread was incredible. Loved those discussions.

Might be worth reviving at some point in the near future. :)

On topic, I was interested to hear Punk's thoughts on the Morrison series in the documentary. He thought every match but the last one on ECW television where he won the belt absolutely sucked.

[Cewsh]

I thought the matches weren't very good, but it was a turning point for both guys as performers, I think. Before that they were either outright bad or mediocre, and they both improved rabidly afterwards.

[Beer-Belly]

I think the question depends on who you ask. His most ardent supporters way overrate him. Just watch that video game deal he did with Austin and Austin blew him away as a promo in that. He can have good matches. Randomly great matches all the time with Cena which is weird. Great promo guy as a heel. Always thought he was a shit babyface.

I need to see that Austin promo.

I might be the only person who prefers Punk as a babyface. He's one of the few recent faces who wasn't eye-rollingly cheesy in his promos.

[Psycho666Soldier]

I need to see that Austin promo.

I might be the only person who prefers Punk as a babyface. He's one of the few recent faces who wasn't eye-rollingly cheesy in his promos.
Punk was better as a face than when he was officially a face. The promos he was doing after RAW 1000(and the promos he continues to do) would be terrific face promos if he cut out the cowardice and trying to get out of matches and complaining about "unfair stipulations" and such. I've learned through Punk in the last year, though, that it's official that WWE wrestlers become neutered, in and out of the ring, when they turn face. It's bullshit. It's what ruined his face run.

He turns face: His promos lose edginess and his matches start to follow patterns focused around 5 or so big moves.

He turns heel: He starts cutting awesome promos that could be morphed to a face perspective, and his matches seem to be more varied suddenly.

No wonder everyone hates Cena. I understand his role, so his promos wouldn't change anyway, but restricting a man's wrestling because of his alignment just shoves someone into a terrible corner with hardly any freedom.


As for Punk's general overrated-ness, there is definitely a strong case of "markism" for him. He's one of the best heels of the generation, as a face he's good to great depending on the circumstances, and he has a certain appeal about him that does grab people's attention. Most people don't disagree with that. His wrestling, though, is definitely hit or miss. As a heel, he employs the most emotion and personality, and he seems to be into it more. However, no matter his alignment, he tends to be pretty sloppy, and has been said many times, he can't turn out a great match with ANY opponent, but these days it's more rare to see him have a bad one than anything below decent.

Top-notch Talker, Decent-to-Great Wrestler depending on the day.

[chatty]

I would say he was very good but still has a way to go to become a true legend. He's capable in the ring and had a fair few good matches but I can't remember being gobsmacked by any of his matches and they seem to lacking any sort of emotional investment in them.

Again very good on the mic, he has had some brilliant promos but for the amount of mic time he gets there have only been a couple where I have really sat up and took note. I think he's on his way but he has yet to bridge that gap between where he is now and where guys like Austin/Michaels/Hart/Taker etc were.

[G-Fresh]

He's an IWA Mid-South guy and I'm from Indiana so he gets love for that. I got no problem with him being straight edge. I do have a problem with him calling a kid a homo then telling a another kid to kill himself because he says homosexuality is disgusting. I have a problem with Joey Styles and others being told to tone down their anti-Obomba tweets, but Punk being able to spit venom about the RNC wanting to take away women's rights and destroy the education system. He's a good wrestler and a great talker though. Definitely not on the level of Jericho, Michaels, or Austin though.

My points are still valid. I should have said that the GTS is horrible for Punk to use. Others have used it and it looked devastating.

[Brian M.]

His Macho Man elbow fucking sucks. He's always totally out of control and never even really ends up hitting the opponent with his elbow. Other than that, he's pretty damned good. But he's not the best in-ring guy in the company. Bryan wrestles circles around him, and I prefer Ziggler too. I actually think Punk and Cena have very similar in-ring skills at this point, but Cena didn't wrestle in ROH so I'm probably wrong on that.

[Chris]

I think the very nature of messageboards, forums and other social media means that a vast number of wrestlers are overrated to some degree. Everyone gets a bandwagon at some point. Punk is a great talent who is deserving of praise. Is he an elite talent? It's too soon to tell. The fact that he has weaknesses doesn't necessarily preclude him from joining that list some day. I wouldn't say that Austin could have a great match with anyone he worked with. Guys like Michaels and Taker have had periods where their wrestling didn't set the world on fire - Michaels in particular was pretty formulaic in the mid-2000s. And Jericho's anticipated matches with particular wrestlers are sometimes better on paper than they are on the night.

I think the most significant thing is that last year, Punk's departure and return was THE storyline in WWE. And he's racked up a nice record with the title, even if his matches aren't always given top billing. For a company that has been determined to make Cena the singular focus for many years, that's pretty remarkable all things considered.

[Cewsh]

His Macho Man elbow fucking sucks. He's always totally out of control and never even really ends up hitting the opponent with his elbow. Other than that, he's pretty damned good. But he's not the best in-ring guy in the company. Bryan wrestles circles around him, and I prefer Ziggler too. I actually think Punk and Cena have very similar in-ring skills at this point, but Cena didn't wrestle in ROH so I'm probably wrong on that.

I think Punk is a more complete wrestler, and has better matches on average, but Cena is the better big match wrestler.

[G-Fresh]

Has Punk even even won a match with the elbow drop?

[StoneColdChris]

Yep. Jack Swagger on Raw in January. (However the ref botched the finish)

And Mark Henry at a Raw this past April.

[Mark Hammer]

Discrediting him quite a bit. :lol:

It's hardly like we're saying he's crap now is it?


No, I was taking issue with how the word "easily" was being thrown around. I can hear an argument that HBK and Austin were better in the ring. But when someone says they were "easily better" I have to object. I stand by my original stance that he is a top-notch in-ring performer and certainly not leagues beneath them like a few people were trying to let on.

[Mark Hammer]

PS A bit harsh on Elijah Burke - some of their matches were quite good.

I saw them go at it live at Unforgiven 2007. Wasn't a bad match by any means. Certainly better than Cena vs Orton that same night.

[Mark Hammer]

I need to see that Austin promo.

I might be the only person who prefers Punk as a babyface. He's one of the few recent faces who wasn't eye-rollingly cheesy in his promos.

"I'M MORE DANGEROUS THAN I'VE EVER BEEN!!!"

-Randy Orton

[virms]

In the News and Notes Thread, we've been having a discussion that appears to revolve mostly around whether or not CM Punk is merely very good in the ring, or is the second coming of the lord and savior with magical wrestling powers. The relevant posts have gone like this, and please feel free to chip in your thoughts on CM Punk at this point in his career as well.

No.

[Brian M.]

I think Punk is a more complete wrestler, and has better matches on average, but Cena is the better big match wrestler.

I'd agree with this. Cena usually doesn't light the world on fire during TV matches (although I love him in tag matches because he gets the crowd involved even when he's not in the match), but I struggle to think of more than a handful of times that he hasn't come up with a very good to great performance on the PPV stage. It's quite the feat considering just how many main events he's been in. Punk is the more consistent of the two when you look at the complete package, most definitely.

[G-Fresh]

Punk didn't start lighting the crowds on fire until he got the rub from Cena.

[Bert]

Punk didn't start lighting the crowds on fire until he got the rub from Cena.

Lie.

[G-Fresh]

When has he rocked house like that other than with Cena? Hardy? lol

[Mark Hammer]

Rub from Cena? You mean that time Cena was lying there doing nothing while Punk gave his (in)famous promo? Or any of the other times before that when he had arenas full of people booing/cheering him (while Cena was completely absent)?

You are so full of shit.

[G-Fresh]

That promo is when he started to be an Austin clone with his promos and storyline. So he gets the rub from Austin by association too.

[Mark Hammer]

You are also a shitty and uncreative troll.

[G-Fresh]

Punk blew the shit up on ECW with Chavo.

[The Rogerer]

Looking through the original post and the list of bad Punk matches, Jericho is ropey as anything and how do you have a good in-ring fued with Big Show?

Even though I really like Jericho he has always been sketchy in the ring.

[G-Fresh]

Then Punk is whatever is under sketchy.

[Tainted Eclipse]

I'd agree with this. Cena usually doesn't light the world on fire during TV matches (although I love him in tag matches because he gets the crowd involved even when he's not in the match), but I struggle to think of more than a handful of times that he hasn't come up with a very good to great performance on the PPV stage. It's quite the feat considering just how many main events he's been in. Punk is the more consistent of the two when you look at the complete package, most definitely.

if we're talking about ring work, i don't see how punk is more "complete" than cena. is there any particular thing punk does better than cena? i cant think of it; not a better brawler, seller, technician, doesn't have better execution.

it may be the case that punk has more chances to put on good TV matches, but cena usually puts in very good performances in tv matches when he's got opponents who can work.

[OD50]

...seller, technician, doesn't have better execution.

:eek:

[Mark Hammer]

Seriously. That was a fine example of nonsense Tainted Eclipse.

[Tainted Eclipse]

nope. cena's an incredibly expressive seller whose "nonselling" is overblown to an outrageous degree, a shockingly good technician (he doesn't get a lot of time to show it, but check out the latest punk match and the punk match at summerslam last year. he pulls off some surprisingly slick stuff on the mat. punk never does stuff like that), and actually has very good execution in his little stuff and his power moves, don't let his shitty stf overwhelm your judgment in that.

[OD50]

'Expressive' = Cartoony?

[Mark Hammer]

And we're basing how superior Cena's technical wrestling prowess is to that of CM Punk's... by listing a few of his matches with CM Punk.

Who else has he pulled off such slick displays against?

[G-Fresh]

Cena can get technical. It doesn't have to be with Punk.

[Ringo]

Looking through the original post and the list of bad Punk matches, Jericho is ropey as anything and how do you have a good in-ring fued with Big Show?


Pretty easily. Many have.

[Cewsh]

And we're basing how superior Cena's technical wrestling prowess is to that of CM Punk's... by listing a few of his matches with CM Punk.

Who else has he pulled off such slick displays against?

I definitely recall him doing it with Michaels.

[ReDPath]

He's gotten better since working with Paul Heyman.

I don't view him as a guy who can carry a company through a sustained period of time though, talking years here not months. Whether its a financial carry or a carry that starts off a new era sort of speak.

Part of that is probably himself and probably just the powers that be who feel putting anyone over Cena is bad business.

Its very hard to go over Cena clean in that company these days. About the only way I see it happening for Punk is if he were face and it were 2-3 years down the line in a face vs face showdown or maybe face Punk vs Heel Cena.

To me he sorta sits in the lower echelon of guys before him who were main event caliber but never were given the opportunity to be 'the guy' due to any number of reasons.

Guys like...

Owen Hart
Ken Shamrock
Steve Blackman
Raven
Kane - When was a legit threat and not a comedy act
Benoit

Going further back

Jake Roberts - Back in that era, he was a much better citizen
Ted Dibiase
Bad News Brown
Rick Rude
Rick Martel
Bulldog

I know Punk has had the strap for some time but the question becomes will anyone even remember the run?

I'd wager people would remember the HHH run of doom before they remember much about this title run.

Heyman has made it interesting since he got on board but I dunno how long that can go. Maybe until Lesnar gets involved and it forces...

1. A showdown between the two
2. An Alliance between the two
3. A face/heel turn

[Cewsh]

Wait, I know we're all big Steve Blackman fans, but main event caliber?

[kangus]

Hey, you try to tell Steve Blackman to his face he's not main event caliber.

[OD50]

To me Punk will always be in the same category as Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero. Good hands, over, good/great workers etc but never being anointed the guy, like Cena, Hogan, Austin and Rock (maybe Vince believed Diesel to be the guy for a while as well).

Thoughts on that?

[Cewsh]

The problem with that is that I don't think Punk's long term role is ever going to be thought of like that. I think he's much more in the Piper, Dibiase, Michaels, Triple H, Edge group as the company's top antagonist.

Despite his year on top as a babyface, his legacy is almost certainly going to be a heel one.

[Vice]

cena's an incredibly expressive seller whose "nonselling" is overblown to an outrageous degree

It really isn't. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt fairly often, it's absurd. Part of it is his booking (selling a punt for about 3 minutes while others sell it for 3 months), but part is definitely him either just forgetting to sell, or doing a shit job at it.

Punk definitely has his moments where he completely no sells, which always takes me out of the moment and want to yell at the screen since Punk is generally so good about that. But Cena? Cena is a terrible seller. He can be a good bumper, and consistently at that, but he's had waaaaay too many moments of atrocious selling (or lack of) for me to ever consider him a good seller, much less a fantastic one.

[Cewsh]

They're both pretty rotten at it, to be fair. Two of the worst in recent memory.

[RuneEdge]

Cena's no selling is ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B81ahVzNwmw
Watch the finish of the match from 7:30.

[Mark84j]

Cena's no selling is ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B81ahVzNwmw
Watch the finish of the match from 7:30.

Thank you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iANWeEevFj8

[mth]

Not much I can really say that hasn't been said. Punk on the mic is among the elite in my opinion while in the ring he kind of averages out to be kind of average. I can't really say if he's overrated 'cuz I'm honestly not sure how he's rated in general these days. I feel like he'd be an internet darling that the internet turns on once he blows up but I have no idea if that's what's happened.

[Cewsh]

Actually he already did the "bandwagon/internet turns on him/internet loves him/internet turns on him again/internet loves him again" thing. He's due for a backlash around Wrestlemania time.

[Rip]

I can see this two ways.

I'm kind of in the over-rated camp, love him on the mic but in the ring he's very limited in what he does much more so than he was in ROH.

However...

My son loves him, he's the perfect anti-hero with just the right amount of swagger and snarl to appeal to the exact same demographic Shiney Happy Super Cena does, he's almost a Batman to Cenas Superman in a way. Look at him through the eyes of a kid an no, he's not.

It's another market question, if this was the attitude era yup he's waaaay over-rated, now in this group and in this climate he's about as good as we should expect.

[RuneEdge]

I'd like to think that Punk's fully aware of how the fans feel about him and can sense when that backlash is coming, which might explain why his character has gone in the direction it has. With him as a heel, its hard for the internet to "turn on him" and get the response we desire, cuz thats exactly the reaction he'll be looking for from us.

[Tainted Eclipse]

Cena's no selling is ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B81ahVzNwmw
Watch the finish of the match from 7:30.

it was a babyface comeback. getting a quick burst of energy to pull off your big move in the last moments of the match and eek out a win. this is a staple of wrestling. to be fair even, if you watch closely cena is doing a half way decent groggy, getting his head back together sort of selling while he stands up after the FU. cena is a very subtle worker, which is probably why he gets so much flack from internet chumps, but it's a big reason why i like him. either way that clip had 0 percent to do with selling.

[Tainted Eclipse]

yes i know it's ironic that cena is in many aspects a subtle worker when he's also in many aspects he's the exact opposite of subtle - facial expressions, etc. i post this to spare vice responding with a cena's face gif. but i think people who've paid attention to his matches know what i mean.

[Cewsh]

Ones who aren't "internet chumps", you mean.

[Tainted Eclipse]

precisely.

[MMH]

Punk is quality your buffoons.

Just because he can be a bit "clumsy" or whatever doesnt mean he is underrated. There are loads of wrestlers who are technically excellent but their all round game is crap. Punks all round ability is top notch.

And as for the stuff saying Punk and Cena are on a par when it comes to selling. Absolute tripe!

[JRSlim21]

The moment I became done with Cena was when Miz proceeded to literally whup his ass along with the help of A-Ri for roughly 15 minutes at the least... and then a 2 minute no sell comeback to win the match.

Just my 2 cents. I don't find Punk to be overrated. Talk in-ring, out-of-ring all you want... who is actually putting fans in the seats and watching on TV. Punk is probably 1 of the top 3 reasons over the past few years.

[G-Fresh]

Definitly not reason #1. They gave him the belt and let him run main event for a month and he lost ratings.

[Brian M.]

Punk is quality your buffoons.

Just because he can be a bit "clumsy" or whatever doesnt mean he is underrated. There are loads of wrestlers who are technically excellent but their all round game is crap. Punks all round ability is top notch.

And as for the stuff saying Punk and Cena are on a par when it comes to selling. Absolute tripe!

Punk is very definitely a quality wrestler. I'm only picking him apart a bit because people are comparing him to the likes of Michaels and Austin, and he's just not in that camp yet. Again, there are at the very least 3 or 4 wrestlers in the company who are better than him, which you could never say about Michaels and Austin in their primes.

I agree that Punk is better than Cena when it comes to selling. Cena does a great job within the match and makes his opponent's offense look incredible. But then he all too often forgets that selling after the match counts too. He's been getting better at that but it doesn't excuse all the times he's done it. I just feel like in basically every other aspect, Punk and Cena are fairly similar, and you'd never hear someone comparing Cena to Austin or Bret Hart in the ring.

[Mark Hammer]

I definitely recall him doing it with Michaels.

I'm not disagreeing, my point is if he can only look great (still referring to his technical wrestling prowess) vs a select group of opponents then maybe they should get a little bit of credit for it. As opposed to claiming that Cena is better at it than they are.

[Mark Hammer]

Punk is quality your buffoons.

Just because he can be a bit "clumsy" or whatever doesnt mean he is underrated. There are loads of wrestlers who are technically excellent but their all round game is crap. Punks all round ability is top notch.

And as for the stuff saying Punk and Cena are on a par when it comes to selling. Absolute tripe!

Thank you, I honestly felt like I was losing my mind. Punk is stellar in the ring. Easily one of the top 3 workers in the company right now, in-ring I mean.

Some of you are absurd. "Sloppy and inconsistent"? Seriously get the hell out of here.

[Tainted Eclipse]

I'm not disagreeing, my point is if he can only look great (still referring to his technical wrestling prowess) vs a select group of opponents then maybe they should get a little bit of credit for it. As opposed to claiming that Cena is better at it than they are.

cena doesn't get a chance to show his technical ability very often -- it doesn't fit with his general style, and he doesn't often work very competitive peer v. peer type matches that lend themselves to opening mat segments. the few times he does he displays a genuine talent for doing so that very very few wrestlers show, punk included. in the punk/cena matches, there have been mat wrestling/technical segments. cena does a couple cool, interesting, very well executed technical things in those short segments. punk doesn't. i don't know why we shouldn't conclude cena is better at it than punk.

there's also a match with miz on a 2009 PPV where they do the theme where cena schools miz in basic wrestling for the first couple minutes, and he executes very well.


I agree that Punk is better than Cena when it comes to selling. Cena does a great job within the match and makes his opponent's offense look incredible. But then he all too often forgets that selling after the match counts too.

it's reasonable to be annoyed when cena 'recovers' too quickly after a match. i don't really care, but i'll grant it's a reasonable thing to care about. but to knock a guy who bell to bell is one of the absolute best sellers in the world because he gets up too fast after a match, to the point of saying he's "not a good seller" or even that he's not an exceptional seller, when he absolutely is from bell to bell, strikes me as odd.

[G-Fresh]

Some of you are absurd. "Sloppy and inconsistent"? Seriously get the hell out of here.

He is sloppy and inconsistent.

[Mark Hammer]

You always talk, yet you never have anything to say.

[G-Fresh]

Derka derka.

[Mik]

Punk is good in the ring, cena is average.

Punk is a good seller, cena is an average seller. Cena might sell moves quite well, but he sells the psychology of the match about as badly as anyone I've ever seen.

[MMH]

Punk is very definitely a quality wrestler. I'm only picking him apart a bit because people are comparing him to the likes of Michaels and Austin, and he's just not in that camp yet. Again, there are at the very least 3 or 4 wrestlers in the company who are better than him, which you could never say about Michaels and Austin in their primes.

Depends what you mean by "better". There are probably a handful of better in ring guys in terms of being fluid and great workers but I think Punks all round ability is way better than most. His stuff is believable. I recall when Austin was in his prime and there were plenty of people (wrongly in my opinion) saying that he wasnt a great worker. But again Austins all round game was tremendous.

I actually never liked Michaels until his final run for some reason.

I agree that Punk is better than Cena when it comes to selling. Cena does a great job within the match and makes his opponent's offense look incredible. But then he all too often forgets that selling after the match counts too. He's been getting better at that but it doesn't excuse all the times he's done it. I just feel like in basically every other aspect, Punk and Cena are fairly similar, and you'd never hear someone comparing Cena to Austin or Bret Hart in the ring.

I personally think Punk is better than Cena at everything except the big one, drawing power. Again I am never allowed to suspend my belief when it comes to Cena. He makes things not matter. He really annoyed me when he won money in the bank too with his ridiculous goofy face after winning and his no selling stuff again.

[MMH]

cena doesn't get a chance to show his technical ability very often -- it doesn't fit with his general style, and he doesn't often work very competitive peer v. peer type matches that lend themselves to opening mat segments. the few times he does he displays a genuine talent for doing so that very very few wrestlers show, punk included. in the punk/cena matches, there have been mat wrestling/technical segments. cena does a couple cool, interesting, very well executed technical things in those short segments. punk doesn't. i don't know why we shouldn't conclude cena is better at it than punk.

there's also a match with miz on a 2009 PPV where they do the theme where cena schools miz in basic wrestling for the first couple minutes, and he executes very well.


Wrestling aint real though... so it doesnt matter of he schooled him or not. Technical wrestling doesnt automatically make you a good wrestler I think a lot of people forget that.

[Ringo]

I think Tainted means that the story of that segment of the match was Cena schooling Miz in basic wrestling, and it was just an example of his technical execution being good. I know Tainted doesn't think technical wrestling skill carries a whole lot of weight in professional wrestling or is inherently superior to other styles. Thankfully that's something most of us agree on these days.

[Brian M.]

When I was talking about guys being better than Punk, I was strictly talking about in ring wrestling. That's been the discussion point here for the most part. I think basically everyone can agree that Punk is one of the best mic workers of all time. All around including mic work, I would say Bryan probably still has him beat, but he's in the top 2 or 3 in the company for sure.

[Ochoa]

I share the opinion of most. Is Punk great all-around? Sure. But I don't think he's the absolute best. I would put Bryan and Jericho ahead.

[Anaconda Sniper]

I feel Punk is kinda both underrated and overrated its weird. He has been one of the top workhorses for the WWE in the past 5 years..a lot of it was overlooked but he always had that fan base that kept him up there that many feel hes overrated. If I were to rank him right now I'd only put him behind Daniel Bryan with the current roster thats just ring wise...I feel his best comes out when he has great promos with the guys he his working with. I'll say his feud with Jericho was an overall dud because everyone knows both could have done way better but something didn't click with them two. But once the program with Daniel Bryan and Kane started Punk has been on fire since.

[StoneColdChris]

Figured I'd give this a bump after seeing Defrost's comment in the WON awards thread.

[Nash Diesel]

I'd say neither. He has his down periods like EVERY wrestler has had, but for the majority of his career he's lived up to the hype. Even when he's given shit to work with, he still manages to at the least make the matches appealing. I think that post-Summerslam, when he was STILL feuding with Heyman, he was phoning in a lot of his promos and he was stuck wrestling boring as fuck Curtis Axel 90% of the time with Ryback sprinkled in (yay). Heyman carried that feud for awhile, but even the talking gets boring when the main attraction is WRESTLING.

Personally, I think CM Punk is the best thing the WWE has offered in the last 3-4 years. That's not say that's the only good stuff they've given us, not by a longshot, but he's at the top and he deserves to be a top guy. He deserves it more than anyone, his crowd reactions are sick, his matches are usually very good, and his passion for the sport is hard to match.

[Fanny Batter]

He's great when he's been given good stuff, he phones it in when he's not feeling the programme though. I don't blame him, if something's not going to draw money there's no point going above and beyond when it'll be the same bottom line regardless. I don't think he's had that many GREAT matches for somebody who is meant to be incredible either, even back in the ROH days he was inconsistent.

[MikeHunt]

NO THE MAN IS FUCKING BRILLIANT

[The Rogerer]

I think any limitations of Punk are down to the rigid WWE television/match style. He can fall back to going through the motions, and I feel a lot of his promos can be overlong and directionless, but when he has a reason or opportunity to step it up, he can do it all.

[Donald]

CM Punk would have been perfect in the Attitude era.

[The Rogerer]

Rose tinted glasses, it would just mean he'd have 20 more concussions to his name and be piledriven everywhere.

[Nash Diesel]

IMHO it comes down to creative, the way they book certain angles. You can only blame the wrestlers so much, especially in today's heavily scripted environment. A lot of promos and matches just seem to be boxed in and forced to be presented a certain way. Does CM Punk work off a script verbatim, word by word? I don't think so, but I do think he has limitations in both what he says on the mic and what he's allowed to do in the ring. Can't be too violent, can't use certain words, can't do this, that. So really, Punk's negatives are few and far between and I think anyone who considers him under/overrated need to truly analyze what those terms mean in pro wrestling.

Dolph Ziggler is underrated. Randy Orton is overrated.

[Andy]

Punk has had the two best matches of his WWE career this year and a sensational feud with Lesnar. Love the guy.

[The Law]

I think Punk is pretty much properly rated as one of the best wrestlers in the world. Great performer both in and out of the ring. Not much controversy to be had there.

[Tainted Eclipse]

I think any limitations of Punk are down to the rigid WWE television/match style.

I don't know if this can really be said, a lot of guys this year have consistently had awesome TV matches. And Punk was never close to as good on the indies than he's been since he properly adapted to WWE style around 2009. Punk had one excellent performance this year vs. Cena and one out of this world incredible performance vs. Lesnar, that's not a bad year for anyone but other than that I can't recall being impressed with Punk otherwise this year. I liked his mic work in the feud with Lesnar for the most part, though the Heyman feud that continued after that was downright awful.

[Myles]

Haven't seen much wwe in years but I know punk from the odd match on raw or when he I used to like TNA when it first started. His promos are good but to say he is in the same league as Austin, Hart, HBK or even Jericho is a bit much.

Then again I haven't seen much of his work the last 4-5 years.

[Kdestiny]

Punk is a bit overrated. Not better than HBK overall, but I think he was better than pre retirement HBK though

[Kimura Kid]

It's so hard for me to say if he's over rated. I will say I was super impressed looking back at some of the stuff that brought him to the pinnacle of his career (I wasn't watching the WWE Product at the time) His run looking back through vignettes and matches during his run were fantastic. But maybe it's different looking back at the highlights and not the big picture.

Anyways since coming back he hasn't lived up to MY expectations. He's not the most gifted guy in the ring.....I'd say Orton is better inside the squared circle but I would rank Orton amungst the greatest in ring performers of my time......and I've seen a lot of great talents. Punk's not the best on the Mic.........Since Rumble 2013 I haven't seen a ton of fantastic promo's from Punk. Is he good on the Mic? or better than most?.....Yes....is he one of the greatest talkers of all time....I don't think so.

I think he is an amazing talent that has the ability to get fans excited and put on great matches with almost anyone. But I think he's gotten a bit lazy lately. Specifically since I've started watching again. He says the same boring shit pretty much from week to week and feel as if he's on the downside of his career. I don't see a hunger or passion anymore. Maybe that's because he's reached all his dreams or maybe because he's fed up with the back office and he know's he'll never be where he wants to be in the WWE. And that's "the guy"

Either way he is an Amazing Superstar and a future WWE Hall of Famer. I love the guy and get excited every time he's on the screen.....I just always want or expect more out of him. And I think that's because I've longed to see a true push of Punk as the main star of the company! And he won't be getting that opportunity with his current status quo attitude.

[Nash Diesel]

Punk is a bit overrated. Not better than HBK overall, but I think he was better than pre retirement HBK though

Personally I think HBK is the greatest wrestler of all time and to say Punk is a bit overrated because he's not better than HBK overall...man that's a tall order lol.


It's so hard for me to say if he's over rated. I will say I was super impressed looking back at some of the stuff that brought him to the pinnacle of his career (I wasn't watching the WWE Product at the time) His run looking back through vignettes and matches during his run were fantastic. But maybe it's different looking back at the highlights and not the big picture.

Anyways since coming back he hasn't lived up to MY expectations. He's not the most gifted guy in the ring.....I'd say Orton is better inside the squared circle but I would rank Orton amungst the greatest in ring performers of my time......and I've seen a lot of great talents. Punk's not the best on the Mic.........Since Rumble 2013 I haven't seen a ton of fantastic promo's from Punk. Is he good on the Mic? or better than most?.....Yes....is he one of the greatest talkers of all time....I don't think so.

I think he is an amazing talent that has the ability to get fans excited and put on great matches with almost anyone. But I think he's gotten a bit lazy lately. Specifically since I've started watching again. He says the same boring shit pretty much from week to week and feel as if he's on the downside of his career. I don't see a hunger or passion anymore. Maybe that's because he's reached all his dreams or maybe because he's fed up with the back office and he know's he'll never be where he wants to be in the WWE. And that's "the guy"

Either way he is an Amazing Superstar and a future WWE Hall of Famer. I love the guy and get excited every time he's on the screen.....I just always want or expect more out of him. And I think that's because I've longed to see a true push of Punk as the main star of the company! And he won't be getting that opportunity with his current status quo attitude.

Punk's made no bones about wanting to retire soon. I wouldn't be surprised if he retires in 2014. So that could very well be why he hasn't really seemed like we haven't seen him give 110%, or it could be that he's pretty banged up and has had to lighten up his style to avoid crippling himself. Either way, I agree with all of this except the part about Orton. Orton in-ring wise needs to work with just as good if not better wrestlers to make a match "great" such as his matches with Daniel Bryan (not just the last couple months but the stuff they did in the late Spring-early summer was phenom).

[The Law]

I think the best endorsement of Punk you can make is the fact that most of us consider him to have had a down year this year. This year where he had an all-time classic match with John Cena on Raw, a classic with Brock Lesnar at Summerslam, and a really awesome match with Undertaker at Wrestlemania. Also a really good match with Jericho at Payback. The part of the year spent working with Curtis Axel and Ryback wasn't so great, but neither of those guys have ever done much of any interest.

I remember not being a huge fan of his matches with Rock, but they weren't horrible or anything. And Rock's limitations in the ring (basically stamina) are pretty clear at this point.

Punk is really, really good. He has entertaining matches with pretty much anyone he goes up against. He's generally crisp, inventive, and safe in the ring. He sells well, tells stories effectively, and is entertaining. His hybrid style is nice because it lets him work with just about anyone and in any kind of match. He might be the single most well-rounded member of the WWE roster, as he is a better talker than either Daniel Bryan or John Cena, who I consider roughly his equals in the ring.

[JRSlim21]

I think Punk is pretty much properly rated as one of the best wrestlers in the world. Great performer both in and out of the ring. Not much controversy to be had there.

Simple. Nail on the head. I don't see him as overrated. There's a bunch of people I'd put over him (BIG ROB TERRY, perhaps), but that number is ridiculously blown up of those who he's better then (Eva Marie?)

[Doctor Who]

May be if Punk actually put people over and stopped stealing the pins in tag matches his fueds might be more fun.

I mean if he let Ryback or Axel get at least 1 win in one match during that 4 month fued things might have been more interesting. Let's face it the only person he let pin him in the above fued was an almost 50 year old fat Jewish man.

Might as well change his name to CM Cena :p

[Slare]

There is already a wrestler with similar attributes called John Cena so that would be quite confusing.

[WizoOzz]

When you've been utilizing one of, if not the, best heels in the company as a babyface for going on six months or so, it definitely is going to make things at least seem lackluster.

That being said, in no way is CM Punk overrated.

[Nash Diesel]

There's a FB page I follow that literally asked yesterday if Virgil was overrated or underrated..............Virgil for Christ's sake.

[VHS]

I'd call CM Punk more injured than overrated lol. While I haven't really enjoyed him in a short while, I had to remember how beat up he really is. Poor guy deserves a break.

[Clive Plasma]

I'd call CM Punk more injured than overrated lol. While I haven't really enjoyed him in a short while, I had to remember how beat up he really is. Poor guy deserves a break.

And what better way to let you recover from injury, than by sticking him in a handicap match at TLC. Maybe they'll let him take some time off after this, and write him out for a bit.

[VHS]

I hope so. He's been looking well old and tired for weeks now. :(

[The Law]

It wouldn't surprise me if he got taken out by Shield at TLC, then went away until returning as a surprise entry at the Rumble. They could get him a solid six weeks off without missing much of anything because the holiday shows are write-offs.

[Beer-Belly]

The holidays should really be an off season for these guys.

[virms]

Reading back thri this thread I decided to really speak my mind on this subject. I don't post much in here but when I do I put some thought behind it. Gonna spoiler my rant for length though.

no he isn't.

[OD50]

It wouldn't surprise me if he got taken out by Shield at TLC, then went away until returning as a surprise entry at the Rumble. They could get him a solid six weeks off without missing much of anything because the holiday shows are write-offs.

Just yesterday I was thinking that the two handicap matches would result in Punk getting taken out and DB joining the family.. End result being the Shield vs. The Wyatt's and DB vs. Punk at mania.

Not sure how it would/could work out, just got that feeling.. :dunno:

[Brian M.]

I've always believed Punk was a little bit overrated in the ring. Not that he's bad, he's just not the BEST. Bryan wrestles circles around him on a regular basis.

However, on the mic I think he's the best guy they have. He's just naturally gifted and can get any reaction he desires. The feud with Ryback and Axel was terrible but I thought his promos were still very entertaining. He is a guy who is much better off as a heel but the crowd reactions won't allow for that at this point. So he does the best he can with the hand he is given.

[LarryLuv]

No one active outside of Japan has better matches on the high end then Punk. Not even Bryan Danielson. Danielson can wrestle circles around Punk, but then again, Danielson doesn't have the extreme high end quality that is Punk-Joe or Punk-Cena. He has a plethora of stuff that just a tick below, but not at that highest of quality. That isn't to say he can't, he just doesn't yet. The only active guy that has the resume of Punk at the high end is Tanahashi. You can throw in Okada, too, but his highest end stuff is with Tanahashi.

[Doctor Who]

Oh look another feud in where Punk beats his opponents on TV and at the PPV!

Way to help build the other talent Punk, you really are no better then Cena in your 'care about the business' bullshit.

[Nash Diesel]

Oh look another feud in where Punk beats his opponents on TV and at the PPV!

Way to help build the other talent Punk, you really are no better then Cena in your 'care about the business' bullshit.

That's a very narrow minded way to look at what happened last night.

What I saw was even further development in the Shield breaking up and them getting beaten by one man, the one guy they haven't really had anything to do with until less than a month ago, puts an even bigger rift between the 3 members of Shield. Trust me, The Shield isn't going to suffer with the way they lost. It'd be different if it was a straight up clean win for Punk, but it wasn't.

[Matthew]

Oh look another feud in where Punk beats his opponents on TV and at the PPV
Way to help build the other talent Punk, you really are no better then Cena in your 'care about the business' bullshit.

oh hey, big rajah joke!

whats up?

[JP]

The holidays should really be an off season for these guys.

Different times for different guys. Means they can still have a full schedule without compromising income while people get the time off they need and deserve.

[MikeHunt]

[FONT=Verdana]

oh hey, big rajah joke!

whats up?

Lovely stuff

[The Rick]

whats up?

WHATS UP?



and no CM Punk is not overrated.

[stylepoints]

He IS overrated in some ways, in others he deserves the hype. His matches, psychology, great stuff. Is he the best technician ever? Absolutely not. Is he the best ring technician today? Still, no, not by a longshot. Is he the best technician in the WWE right now? No.

People can't seem to understand the difference between physical talent and mental execution. That's why there was a need for this thread. Sure, Punk isn't the best athlete in the world, but his matches are sharp and we'll thought out. There Are people out there that have better psychology than Punk but you can't really ask for any more from the guy.

[virms]

Who is running around saying he is the best of all time in all those areas?

Punk is still my personal favorite at the moment and I look forward to whatever he is involved in but I don't think he is the best ever in any of the main categories. I couldn't even say he is the best of the best of any current stars. However he is well polished in almost every aspect of the game. Always has good matches, good promos and he always excites the crowd no mqtter if he is heel or face.

Not very many people who can do that.

[JT4104]

In general I'd say every "great" guy is overrated and Punk is included in that. It takes really good chemistry with your opponent to have a great match and everyone has had a clunker in their careers. I'd say in the last 5 yrs Punk is one of the few top guys who have been consistent most of the time.

As far as all time talk he hasn't been remotely near the top long enough to even consider that. The Hogans, Flairs, etc....of the world all had 10 yr plus runs at the top. Punk is around year 3 and probably on the downside at this point since he is continually talked about going out on his terms. I view Punk like Edge and want to enjoy is few years at the top while they are going on.