FIVE STARS

[Defrost]

For the first time since Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker at In Your House: Bad Blood a WWF/E match has received ***** in the Wrestling Observer Newsletter

Dave Meltzer gave ***** to Punk vs Cena. This is Punk's 2nd ***** match and Cena's first.

[Hero!]

I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN.


YESYESYESYES. Fina-fucking-ly, Dave Meltzer gives 5 stars to something a match that deserves it. :yes:

[Jimmy Zero]

That should probably say, "This is Cena's first. And, most likely, last."

[Defrost]

Also first time Shawn or Bret wasn't in the match

List of WWF/E WO ***** matches

Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon - Wrestlemania X
Bret Hart vs Owen Hart - Summerslam 1994
Bret Hart vs Stone Cold Steve Austin - Wrestlemania 13
Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker - In Your House Bad Blood
CM Punk vs John Cena - Money in the Bank 2011

[Vice]

Haha, he finally gives something WWE's done ***** and I don't agree with it.

[Brian M.]

That should probably say, "This is Cena's first. And, most likely, last."

Chances are Punk won't get one again either, unless he goes back to the indies. Again, this is the first time since 1997 that Meltzer has rated a WWE match this highly. And yet, still pothots at Cena.

I'm with Vice though...I don't think this was a 5 star match. Trips VS Taker was better, to me, and I'm not 100% sure I'd give that 5 stars either.

[Vice]

Yeah, I still think HHH/Taker is better.

I rewatched Cena/Punk the other night and it was a lot worse than I remembered it being. Like, the first 15-20 minutes or so the match isn't much of a match at all. It's slow, plodding, uneventful for the most part, and would have been utterly dire if not for the crowd being electric. The rest of the match picks up a ton and is very good with a lot of great moments, spots, reversals, near falls, whatever, and ends perfectly and beautifully. But yeah, remove the emotion from watching it live and there isn't really a lot to the match aside from an amazing final 10 minutes or so.

If I had to get smarky and give it STARS, I'd probably go ****1/2 at the very most.

[Excel]

I have to agree with Vice, it was a very good match, but not as good as a match can be, which is what 5 stars means to me.

Does Meltzer honestly believe there hasn't been a 5 star match in WWE for 14 years?

[Ringo]

HHH/Taker is an easy ***** for me, but Punk/Cena is probably a notch or two below. I'll have to give it another watch really. There was definitely some so-so stuff early on. Either way, I don't think I'll be expressing outrage over it getting such a rating any time soon.

[Hero!]

Yeah, but you're wrong.

edit: that was to vice -_-;;

[Ringo]

I actually thought Old Dave had given two DG 6-mans ***** but I guess not. Alright, he's not quite so silly then. :p

[Vice]

Yeah, but you're wrong.

edit: that was to vice -_-;;


Nah. :km:

[Defrost]

Chances are Punk won't get one again either, unless he goes back to the indies. Again, this is the first time since 1997 that Meltzer has rated a WWE match this highly. And yet, still pothots at Cena.

I'm with Vice though...I don't think this was a 5 star match. Trips VS Taker was better, to me, and I'm not 100% sure I'd give that 5 stars either.

I like a John Cena match more than you do

[Ringo]

The sky is falling down!

[DDT]

I fucking loved that match, but then I'm the cooky guy who can re-absorb himself in the same atmosphere of a first-time viewing. That match will never not be "live" to me, if that makes any sense.

[ANT]

:panic:

[Kyle_242]

I officially don't understand this weird world of match ratings at all.

5* storytelling? Yes. 5* storyline? Fuck yes. 5* match? Someone has to explain that part to me. It wasn't Punk's best work, it wasn't even Cena's best work...after the PPV, I found myself feeling like the match itself was the reason the whole night just falls short of perfection.

And this is coming from someone who considers this whole angle to be pretty much the highlight of his life thus far. His sad, incredibly sad life.

[Bert]

I found myself feeling like the match itself was the reason the whole night just falls short of perfection.


Yeah, this match is the reason the night wasn't perfect. It must have been so hard for them to follow that flawless Diva's match that they cracked under the pressure.

[Kyle_242]

Yeah, this match is the reason the night wasn't perfect. It must have been so hard for them to follow that flawless Diva's match that they cracked under the pressure.

Touche.

But you know what I meant.

[Last Trent Barreta Fan]

I wonder how this guy rated my favorite match of all time: Survivor Series 2003. Team Bischoff (Jericho, Christian, Orton, Scott Steiner, Mark Henry) vs. Team Austin (HBK, RVD, Booker T, Dudley Boyz). That match was Stone Cold's final match as RAW GM. A bloody and battered HBK doesn't give up and goes as far as he can but still loses to Orton (I think). Great F'in match.
I liked MITB's final match of Cena and CM Punk but that Survivor Series match was awesome.
If CM Punk goes to TNA and wins the title over there, he would be the only wrestler to have held the ROH, TNA and WWE titles. That'd be sweet. However, I don't see him leaving WWE, I mean, he talks a big game, but they probably have a secret contract with him where he'll come back in a couple weeks. RVD may be "The Whole F'n Show" but CM Punk is "The Whole F'n Storyline".

[Psycho666Soldier]

I wonder how this guy rated my favorite match of all time: Survivor Series 2003. Team Bischoff (Jericho, Christian, Orton, Scott Steiner, Mark Henry) vs. Team Austin (HBK, RVD, Booker T, Dudley Boyz). That match was Stone Cold's final match as RAW GM. A bloody and battered HBK doesn't give up and goes as far as he can but still loses to Orton (I think). Great F'in match.
I liked MITB's final match of Cena and CM Punk but that Survivor Series match was awesome.
If CM Punk goes to TNA and wins the title over there, he would be the only wrestler to have held the ROH, TNA and WWE titles. That'd be sweet. However, I don't see him leaving WWE, I mean, he talks a big game, but they probably have a secret contract with him where he'll come back in a couple weeks. RVD may be "The Whole F'n Show" but CM Punk is "The Whole F'n Storyline".

While it would be sweet to have that resume, I highly doubt Punk will ever go back to TNA. He's explicitly stated that he'd never work for them again due to a lot of shit he's dealt with and seen.

About that match, I definitely don't think that match is what took away its perfection. Five star match? Maybe not, but a very great one that I highly enjoyed. Even going back and watching it, I still really enjoyed it. I actually liked the slower pace of the beginning. The whole thing built towards the end.

EDIT: The Punk/Cena match, not the Survivor Series match, to clarify. I remember watching the Survivor Series match, but it was so many years ago, I don't remember how it went down.

[JRSlim21]

Rock/Hogan wasn't a 5 star match but I can understand if someone rates it highly based upon everything else. It's just another angle to rate something. It's like people who rate Hogan/Andre as 1 of the greatest matches of all-time. No one is looking at work rate when they classify it as such

[Psycho666Soldier]

Precisely. Everything surrounding that match was highly emotional. All the historical changes that hung on the shoulders of that match made it what it was, while I think Punk and Cena put on a great performance to make it all the better. Plus, the crowd, and being a part of it, gets you into it that much more.

[Zyphlin]

I must REALLY underrate HHH and Undertaker. I think entire package both HBK / Undertakers were better and HBK Flair was on par. I thought Punk/Cena was under HBK/Undertaker I and II because the in ring wasn't as good, but I don't think it's far off from HHH/Undertaker.

I'd go with **** 1/2 as a good choice

[Psycho666Soldier]

As a stand alone match without having all the story behind it, I found the Triple H/Taker bout to be better. With the storyline included, I'd put it on the same par. It's actually hard for me to decide which one is better just because they're both great for different reasons.

EDIT: I do think Taker/Triple H told a better story in the ring, though.

[RuneEdge]

What's strange is that you look at the previous WWF matches that got 5 stars, they had the whole package including great work in the ring. So for that, Cena/Punk getting the same rating seems like a bad move IMO. Having said that, the crowd were more into this than any of the previous 5 star matches.

[Morrison]

huh? why does punk/cena getting the same rating seem like a bad move? are you saying they didn't put great work on in the ring?

[Beer-Belly]

Punk/Cena was as entertaining as a one on one match could be. I don't see why we need to get into a pissing contest about star ratings.

[Morrison]

because wrestling fans are huge homos.

[Cewsh]

I have to agree with Vice, it was a very good match, but not as good as a match can be, which is what 5 stars means to me.

Does Meltzer honestly believe there hasn't been a 5 star match in WWE for 14 years?

I doubt very much that Dave Meltzer has watched a WWE match since 2001.

[Defrost]

I fucking loved that match, but then I'm the cooky guy who can re-absorb himself in the same atmosphere of a first-time viewing. That match will never not be "live" to me, if that makes any sense.

I'm with you. I still get emo over Kobashi returning from cancer when I watch that match for instance.

[KorruptJustice]

I must REALLY underrate HHH and Undertaker. I think entire package both HBK / Undertakers were better and HBK Flair was on par.

I was the same way. I watched Taker/HHH, and thought it was good/very good, but not really anything special. Then after WM I came on here and read all the people jizzing all over it, and I immediately went and rewatched the match to see what I had missed. My opinion didn't change very much, and it still hasn't. Was it a good match? Absolutely. Is it a match that I'll go back and rewatch, or one that I'll remember and talk about with my wrestling friends 5 or 10 years down the road? Probably not.

[Morrison]

considering it could possibly be the undertaker's last match, you probably will.

[KorruptJustice]

considering it could possibly be the undertaker's last match, you probably will.

That's a fair point. If it turns out Undertaker never wrestles again, then yes, the match will gain more significance. But I'm pretty hopeful that he's got one more WM in him, and him retiring still won't change the actual quality of the match.

[Morrison]

i think it would. if that ends up being the match that 'retired' the undertaker, the weight of the story of in match increases dramatically.

[KorruptJustice]

i think it would. if that ends up being the match that 'retired' the undertaker, the weight of the story of in match increases dramatically.

I don't know; I'd think it'd just dig up a lot of the old resentment I have for Triple H. I'd like to think I'm over the HHH hate (for the most part), but I still don't want him to be the one to retire the Undertaker, and the only thing I'd resent more than him beating the Undertaker at WM is him losing the match, but still beating the Undertaker so badly that he retires anyway.

If that was 'Taker's last match, I think I'd just be annoyed every time I saw it from now on.

[Vice]

If that's Taker's last match, I don't think I could be any happier about it. It's a perfect way to go out in my eyes.

[Cewsh]

I'll be sad that the story doesn't have its proper conclusion, but fuck, talk about going out on top.

[RuneEdge]

huh? why does punk/cena getting the same rating seem like a bad move? are you saying they didn't put great work on in the ring?

Cuz I was under the impression that the match itself would have the biggest influence in the rating. Clearly I was wrong.
You strip away all the build up, how much the fans were hyped up for it, etc. Would you still have a 5 star match? Arguably no.
The previous 5 star matches from WWE were far more entertaining to me if we were strictly talking about just the match itself.
Having said that, I was far more hyped for Cena/Punk than any of those other matches, and was also a lot more satisfied with the finish. So if that's what the rating was based on then that makes more sense to me.

[Cewsh]

You strip away all the build up, how much the fans were hyped up for it, etc. Would you still have a 5 star match? Arguably no.

How are those things not part of the match?

No decent match exists in a vacuum, and viewing them that way just misses out on so much of the joy of watching wrestling.

[Morrison]

if you want to strip away the hype and build, you might as well strip away the name and identity of the people in the match, to boot. in analyzing potential five star matches, are we supposed to just look at it as two nameless, faceless humonoids doing a chain of wrestling moves? and if it's still really entertaining, then we give it five stars?

[Bennedy]

Morrison is right. There is more to a 5 star match then just great in ring action. The storyline, emotion, crowd reaction, these all make a match for me.

I enjoyed this match quite a bit. I probably wouldn't give it fives stars, but it's damn sure close.

[Ringo]

I'm with you. I still get emo over Kobashi returning from cancer when I watch that match for instance.

Same. :(


if you want to strip away the hype and build, you might as well strip away the name and identity of the people in the match, to boot. in analyzing potential five star matches, are we supposed to just look at it as two nameless, faceless humonoids doing a chain of wrestling moves? and if it's still really entertaining, then we give it five stars?

Yeah, I despise that stupid argument. Reminds me of the old "well if it wasn't Rock and Austin wrestling but Johnny Blade and Bill Smith would it really be as good?!". No, of course it wouldn't. Doesn't even make sense. :banghead:

Obviously I like to see movez and chain wrestling but only if it makes sense in context, because otherwise it is irrelevant. ***** "storytelling" = a ***** match for me because that's what pro wrestling is.

[RuneEdge]

I wasn't saying you should strip away all the build up an everything, I was just tryin to make a point. I guess I failed miserably. :\

What I was trying to say is when you look at the previous 5 star matches, there wasn't much to the build up, it was more about the performance on the night of the match. Or at least in my case, not knowing the build up didn't stop me from enjoying the match and labelling it a personal classic.
Take Joe vs Kobashi. I loved that match from start to finish. I didn't know who Kobashi was up until then or why they were even having the match. I just downloaded it and loved it. The same with HIAC 1. As far as I remember, HBK hit Taker with a chair and now Taker was pissed, that was literally my understanding of the build up. Yet that match was also a personal 5 star classic. Some of these matches were great with the build up but still amazing without. I have a friend who was an "attitude era fan" and stopped watching around 2001-02 and moved onto MMA. I told him to watch HBK/Taker from WrestleMania 25 and he absolutely loved it. He didn't watch any build up or anything. I literally fast forwarded to the entrances and he picked up from there. Sure the build up makes it better but it wasn't necessary.

Now looking at the list of previous 5 star matches, I was under the impression that that's the kind of match Meltzer looks for. Cena/Punk is a classic match in my eyes, I just didn't think it would be the same for Meltzer. And what confuses me is that if Cena/Punk can get 5 stars, why can't something like HBK/Taker?

[Ringo]

Just for kicks, here's his full list of 5 star ratings:


JCP/Territories/World Championship Wrestling

* 4/19/86 Sheepherders vs. Fantastics (Bobby Fulton/Tommy Rogers)
* 4/11/87 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham
* 2/20/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (NWA Chi-Town Rumble)
* 4/2/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (2/3 falls, NWA Clash of the
Champions VI: Ragin' Cajun)
* 5/7/89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA WrestleWar '89: Music City
Showdown)
* 11/15/89 Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk ("I Quit" Match, NWA Clash of the
Champions IX: New York Knockout)
* 2/24/91 Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham, & Sid Vicious vs.
Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner, & Scott Steiner (WarGames Match, WCW
WrestleWar 1991)
* 5/17/92 Sting, Nikita Koloff, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, &
Dustin Rhodes vs. Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, &
Larry Zbyszko (WarGames Match, WCW WrestleWar 1992)

World Wrestling Federation/Entertainment

* 3/20/94 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder Match, WrestleMania X)
WWF Intercontinental Championship
* 8/29/94 Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Cage Match, SummerSlam 1994) WWF
Championship
* 3/23/97 Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission Match, WrestleMania
13)
* 10/5/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker (Hell in a Cell Match, In Your
House: Bad Blood) WWF Championship
* 7/17/11 John Cena vs. CM Punk (Money in the Bank) WWE Championship
Total Nonstop Action Wrestling (TNA)

* 9/11/05 AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels (TNA
Unbreakable 2005)

Ring of Honor

* 10/16/04 Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (ROH Joe vs Punk 2)
* 10/1/05 Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (ROH Joe vs Kobashi)
* 3/31/06 Dragon Kid & Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs. CIMA & Naruki
Doi & Masato Yoshino (ROH Supercard Of Honor)

Pro Wrestling NOAH

* 3/1/03 Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa
* 7/10/04 Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama

All Japan Pro Wrestling

* 12/08/84 Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs. Dory Funk & Terry Funk
* 03/09/85 Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi
* 06/06/89 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu
* 06/08/90 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta
* 10/19/90 Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi
* 05/22/92 Jumbo Tsuruta & Masanobu Fuchi & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada
* 05/25/92 Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi
Kikuchi
* 04/14/93 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 07/02/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama
* 07/29/93 Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 08/31/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 12/03/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta
Kobashi
* 02/13/94 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Giant Baba vs. Masanobu
Fuchi, Toshiaki Kawada, & Akira Taue
* 05/21/94 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 06/03/94 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 01/19/95 Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 01/24/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 03/04/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams & Johnny
Ace
* 04/15/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue
* 06/09/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 05/23/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 06/07/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams & Johnny
Ace
* 12/06/96 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun
Akiyama
* 06/06/97 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 10/31/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 6/11/99 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 10/23/99 Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari
Ogawa
* 04/20/91 Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo
Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi
* 07/05/92 Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Kenta Kobashi &
Tsuyoshi Kikuchi
* 06/30/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs. Toshiaki
Kawada & Akira Taue & Tamon Honda
* 12/05/97 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun
Akiyama

New Japan Pro Wrestling

* 04/23/83 Tiger Mask I vs. The Dynamite Kid for the NWA Junior
Heavyweight Title
* 04/16/94 "Wild Pegasus" Chris Benoit vs. Great Sasuke (Super J Cup
'94)
* 07/08/94 Jushin Liger vs. Great Sasuke
* 06/05/97 El Samurai vs. Koji Kanemoto (Best of the Super Jr. IV)

Asistencia Asesorà a y Administración

* 11/06/94 Los Gringos Locos vs. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon AAA When
Worlds Collide; (hair vs. masks)

All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling

* 08/15/92 Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada
* 04/02/93 Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori
* 04/02/93 Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki
* 04/11/93 Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki vs. Manami Toyota & Toshiyo
Yamada
* 12/06/93 Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi
Ozaki
* 08/24/94 Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue
* 11/20/94 Aja Kong vs. Manami Toyota

Universal Wrestling Federation

* 12/05/84 Kazuo Yamazaki vs. Nobuhiko Takada

Japan Women's Pro Wrestling

* 07/31/93 Dynami Kansai & Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki & Hikari Fukuoka
vs. Aja Kong & Sakie Hasegawa & Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue

Although I think he may have given a bunch of other matches in the 80's *****.

[OD50]

Hm, Sheepherders/Fantastics. Would that be the barbed-wire cage match?

[Ringo]

The match he gave ***** is from this tournament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crockett,_Sr._Memorial_Cup_Tag_Team_Tournament #1986

The barbed wire steel cage which took place a month later was actually The Fantastics & Terry Taylor vs. The Sheepherders & Jack Victory. :yes:

[OD50]

Aha. I know the Sheepherders were a very good legit team since I actually watched them in JCP before they got Bushwhacked, but them being in a ***** match sounds wild. I need to check that one out. :yes:

I remember reading about the barbed-wire match in one of my old wrestling magazines (Wrestling All Stars: Heroes & villains perhaps?) and thinking it was the craziest thing ever. I got the WWF, the AWA, NWA/JCP, World Class, Stampede, POWW and GLOW on television here in Sweden but sadly never Mid-South/UWF.

And I'm no fan of giving star ratings but I really enjoyed Cena/Punk for what it was. Mechanically it wasn't a masterpiece by any means, but BAH GAWD the DRAMA and EMOTION was through the roof. This is coming from someone who hasn't watched a full John Cena match/promo/segment in years by the way.

[terencestamp7]

I thought Bret/Owen at Wrestlemania X was better than their Summerslam bout.

[KorruptJustice]

I thought Bret/Owen at Wrestlemania X was better than their Summerslam bout.

Agreed. While the Summerslam match is awesome, their WM match is actually one of my all time favorites.

[Slare]

Meltzer has stated on many occasions that when he gives a ***** match, its about everything. Its about what happens in the ring, but it is also about the events surrounding it, the crowd, the storytelling and the emotion.

This was 5 stars.

HHH/Taker, Taker/HBK and HBK/Flair were all 5 stars to me too, but theres no point comparing. Looking at Cena/Punk alone, its the most ive enjoyed/marked out to a match in years.

The little nuances made it;
- The video package leading into it.
- The anticipation in the entrances (little pauses between music hitting).
- Punk's intensity when entering the ring and getting the crowd going fucking nuts.
- The new T-shirt.
- Cena's Entrance, head down, the ridiculous booing.
- Punks little mannerisms, like asking the crowd if it was *him* that they said couldnt wrestle.


It was a solid, simple match for the first 15 minutes that played perfectly to the crowd and built things up slowly. It didn't rely on any big spots outside the ring or anything too ridiculous, just really basic and really awesome storytelling.
The kickout of the first F-U was perfect.
The sequence of GTS reversed into STF into Anaconda Vise into F-U into nearfall was incredible.
They teased every shit finish that the internet would've pissed on. Double countouts, Cena clean win, then the screwjob. They delivered probably the best finish imaginable then just gave more when it came to the Del Rio scenario and him escaping through the crowd.

From the moment that the Video Package started playing until the show went off air (the full match package if you will), its 5 stars alll day.

[OD50]

I thought Bret/Owen at Wrestlemania X was better than their Summerslam bout.

So do I. I prefer straight wrestling over 500 dramatic cage escapes. Bret/Owen/Summerslam 1994 was a good one though, no doubt.

Hm, seems I have the entire 1986 Crockett Cup. Will check out the Sheepherders/Fantastics match tonight.

[Hero!]

because wrestling fans are huge homos.


if you want to strip away the hype and build, you might as well strip away the name and identity of the people in the match, to boot. in analyzing potential five star matches, are we supposed to just look at it as two nameless, faceless humonoids doing a chain of wrestling moves? and if it's still really entertaining, then we give it five stars?


Morrison is right. There is more to a 5 star match then just great in ring action. The storyline, emotion, crowd reaction, these all make a match for me.

I enjoyed this match quite a bit. I probably wouldn't give it fives stars, but it's damn sure close.

These posts are correct, you massive homos. There's more to a match than just in-ring action. Pro wrestling isn't a sport, it's an art. You can't just look at the physical, you have to look at all of the other elements that go into this match making it not only a beautiful piece of art, but a wrestling match that deserves a place among the all-time greats.

I fucking hate the internet sometimes.

[Chris]

The little nuances made it;
- The video package leading into it.
- The anticipation in the entrances (little pauses between music hitting).
- Punk's intensity when entering the ring and getting the crowd going fucking nuts.
- The new T-shirt.
- Cena's Entrance, head down, the ridiculous booing.
- Punks little mannerisms, like asking the crowd if it was *him* that they said couldnt wrestle.
I agree. There were a lot of elements which made it an absolute classic. Commentary is another factor which is important for me. I think the quality of it was inconsistent during the match, and hindered by having 3 announcers instead of 2. But I've no problem with someone rating the match 5 stars - I may even do so myself when I watch it again in the future. Based on the aspects you mentioned above and a few other things, I think there's been loads of 5 star WWE matches in the past decade.

[KorruptJustice]

I agree. There were a lot of elements which made it an absolute classic. Commentary is another factor which is important for me. I think the quality of it was inconsistent during the match, and hindered by having 3 announcers instead of 2. But I've no problem with someone rating the match 5 stars - I may even do so myself when I watch it again in the future. Based on the aspects you mentioned above and a few other things, I think there's been loads of 5 star WWE matches in the past decade.

I don't think the problem with the commentating was so much because there were 3 of them instead of 2; I think the problem was that 2 out of the 3 commentators are fucking dreadful, and the third is a shadow of his former self.

[Slare]

Obviously it would've been better with J.R or Solie calling it, but that's all if's and but's. It was incredible, and for me the commentating didnt detract from it, which is the main thing.

[OD50]

Man, I never thought about that. Good ol' Jim Ross calling Cena/Punk would have been amazing. PUNK KICKS OUT! PUNK KICKS OUT!! PUNK KICKS OUT!!" :eek:

It's a good thing Don West didn't call it. He would probably have suffered a stroke before the 15-minute mark.

[Defrost]

Dave buried the commentary in his review

[OD50]

I can imagine.

[Cewsh]

Dave buried the commentary in his review

It is quite awful.

Dave Meltzer and I agree on this.

[KorruptJustice]

When was the last time WWE commentary wasn't awful? It's the single worst part of any WWE show, and it has been for a while now. I'd rather have no commentary at all than what we have right now.

[Defrost]

When Ross is there it is good. When he's not it is bad. Really that simple.

[OD50]

I think WWE commentators having scripts to follow while people are yelling in their headsets isn't doing them any favors.

Just ask Mick foley..

[KorruptJustice]

I definitely think the yelling in the ears can't be all that helpful, but Mick Foley was still good. Even Cole used to be better than he is now, back when he was working with Tazz. I don't know if Vince has gotten worse over the years, or if Cole just doesn't have chemistry with who he's working with now, but I really hope something changes soon.

[Brian M.]

The thing is, Josh Matthews is quite good. But they don't let him work the PPVs. Michael Cole is the pits now that he's not even full out playing his heel character anymore. He should have become a manager...now he just uses each match to promote himself and yell over people.

If the announce team for both shows was Josh Matthews and Booker T, quite frankly I think you'd see a huge improvement. I'm not as down on Booker as most are, and I think the main reason he's annoying at times is because he's trying to talk over Cole.

[KorruptJustice]

The thing is, Josh Matthews is quite good. But they don't let him work the PPVs. Michael Cole is the pits now that he's not even full out playing his heel character anymore. He should have become a manager...now he just uses each match to promote himself and yell over people.

If the announce team for both shows was Josh Matthews and Booker T, quite frankly I think you'd see a huge improvement. I'm not as down on Booker as most are, and I think the main reason he's annoying at times is because he's trying to talk over Cole.

I don't get to watch SD that often, but Matthews has seemed pretty good from the little I saw of him on NXT. As for Booker; maybe he'd be better if Cole wasn't around, but I still haven't really liked the little I've seen of him. Still, I'm willing to test your theory if it means getting rid of Cole, although I'd take him off Raw too, just to be sure...:shifty:

[El_Dandy]

Stanford should be the Play by Play man on Raw

[Anaconda Sniper]

When Ross is there it is good. When he's not it is bad. Really that simple.


This. It is so horrible right now. Superstars commentating is quite good and enjoyable. Though I have to admit I do laugh when Cole calls out/makes fun of Booker for mistakes or when he is just rambling about something that doesn't make sense.

[Kdestiny]

They need to get Regal to be at the table.

[TraXX]

The match would've been 6* if Punk was commentating...

:shifty:

[MikeHunt]

get rid of them all and hire don west by himself.

[RuneEdge]

But make sure there's someone standing in the background while he's commentating so that he has someone to high five whenever he's needs to.

[MikeHunt]

YES!

zac ryder maybe?

[Caito]

If you venture down to the R-Feds, you could always see Zack Ryder's color commentary skills [/shameless self promotion tactic]

[Psycho666Soldier]

Ryder could actually be pretty entertaining as a color guy.

*Someone does some insane manuever*
Ryder: "ARE YOU SERIOUS, BRO!?"

[Mike Skillz]

Meltzer has stated on many occasions that when he gives a ***** match, its about everything. Its about what happens in the ring, but it is also about the events surrounding it, the crowd, the storytelling and the emotion.

This was 5 stars.

HHH/Taker, Taker/HBK and HBK/Flair were all 5 stars to me too, but theres no point comparing. Looking at Cena/Punk alone, its the most ive enjoyed/marked out to a match in years.

The little nuances made it;
- The video package leading into it.
- The anticipation in the entrances (little pauses between music hitting).
- Punk's intensity when entering the ring and getting the crowd going fucking nuts.
- The new T-shirt.
- Cena's Entrance, head down, the ridiculous booing.
- Punks little mannerisms, like asking the crowd if it was *him* that they said couldnt wrestle.


It was a solid, simple match for the first 15 minutes that played perfectly to the crowd and built things up slowly. It didn't rely on any big spots outside the ring or anything too ridiculous, just really basic and really awesome storytelling.
The kickout of the first F-U was perfect.
The sequence of GTS reversed into STF into Anaconda Vise into F-U into nearfall was incredible.
They teased every shit finish that the internet would've pissed on. Double countouts, Cena clean win, then the screwjob. They delivered probably the best finish imaginable then just gave more when it came to the Del Rio scenario and him escaping through the crowd.

From the moment that the Video Package started playing until the show went off air (the full match package if you will), its 5 stars alll day.

With respect to your points, which i agree with: i cant give HHH/Taker and HBK/Flair five stars, because on that basis Rock/Hogan should be five stars. HBK/Flair was Ric's best match in Decades! And the emotion was off the charts, But his limitations stop it from being five stars. HHH/Taker was a great match but going into the match i knew Taker wasn't losing. and as much as HHH did to change my mind in that match, i knew that if they weren't giving it to Shawn (which i did question) they wouldnt to Hunter.

Punk/Cena i didnt have that issue, i honestly believed they would shit the bed and not let Punk leave with the belt.

[Slare]

Fair points actually, I would agree that unpredictability added 1/4* for me and got me a lot more involved in the match.

Punk/Cena was *****1/4

[Brian M.]

Shouldn't you give a match more credit if you thought a guy had NO CHANCE of losing, and yet somehow they put a doubt in your mind during the match?

[Atty]

That should probably say, "This is Cena's first. And, most likely, last."

Most likely?

[Defrost]

I have a suspicion this thread is getting bumped tomorrow

[Tainted Eclipse]

yeah its about time ryback got his first ***** rating

[Defrost]

The Ryback vs Strongman is my dream match

[Brian M.]

I have a suspicion this thread is getting bumped tomorrow

But you already bumped it, just then.

Also the exchange earlier in this thread where you told me that you enjoyed a John Cena match more than I did is one of my favorite things to ever happen on this forum.

[Defrost]

But you already bumped it, just then.

Also the exchange earlier in this thread where you told me that you enjoyed a John Cena match more than I did is one of my favorite things to ever happen on this forum.

:shifty:

Don't know what you are talking about

[Vice]

You just fucked up huge here, Frosty.

[Defrost]

The walls feel like they're closing in

[G-Fresh]

It's the meth.

[Defrost]

And here is the bump

From this week's Observer



The King of Pro Wrestling show on 10/8 from Sumo Hall in Tokyo featured IWGP heavyweight champion Hiroshi Tanahashi retaining his title against Minoru Suzuki in a match that not only was the best match of this year, but a match at a completely different level from anything this year. Tanahashi, the best in-ring performer in the industry today, always delivers on a big show, but in this case he had to completely adjust his style. Suzuki, the former Pancrase champion works a unique style and the two worked body parts and delivered an unreal level of selling and made every move count. While not the same style, the closest thing I can compare it to where the Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada matches in the 90s.


9. Hiroshi Tanahashi retained the IWGP heavyweight title pinning Minoru Suzuki in 29:22. At no point was this match slow and it never dragged. Tanahashi used an abdominal stretch right away and then acted like he was doing his air guitar. Suzuki acted pissed off like he was being mocked in a serious world title match and it turned into a fight with hard forearms. Suzuki used an armbar over the ropes. This is a great spot because people buy it, but when you do it, it can’t be the finish because you’re on the rope. But people buy you can do heavy damage in five seconds before breaking. Suzuki also gave him a reverse armbar over the guard rail and a hammerlock into the guard rail. Suzuki used knees and a head-butt, then used a Kimura and started stretching Tanahashi’s fingers. In the story of the match, Tanahashi’s left arm was getting destroyed and then out of nowhere he’d hit the dragon screw leg whip. Suzuki started selling the knee and Tanahashi did another dragon screw, followed by a sliding dropkick to the knee. Suzuki went back to the Kimura. Tanahashi had his left elbow all taped up. Suzuki tied him up and started biting the tape that was loose. I’m not sure how that’s supposed to hurt, but it got over and made for a great visual. Tanahashi cut this off with a chop block on Suzuki’s bad knee and a splash off the middle rope onto the knee. Suzuki sold that awesome. Tanahashi went for the Texas cloverleaf, but Suzuki kicked out. Tanahashi went for the figure four. First Suzuki was blocking it, but Tanahashi finally clamped it on. Suzuki would get near the ropes and Tanahashi would pull him back to the center. This figure four felt like it was on too long. Suzuki would be in it and he was just yelling that he wasn’t going to submit. Finally he made the ropes. Tanahashi used another dragon screw but missed the sling blade (flying lariat). Suzuki was limping like crazy from his knee being worked on. Then out of nowhere, Suzuki hit this A.J. Styles dropkick. The two started slapping the hell out of each other. Suzuki also did kicks to the chest and more slaps. Tanahashi came back going for this haymaker slap, Suzuki ducked it and got him in a choke. Since the match was so long at this point, the crowd was buying this as the finish. Suzuki then used a choke suplex and had his back for a rear naked choke. It was long choke and it looked like Tanahashi was going out but right as he was theoretically passing out and the ref was going to stop it, he made the ropes. Suzuki then just slapped the hell out of him over and over until he blew himself up. Suzuki went for a guillotine but Tanahashi slipped out. Tanahashi went for a dragon screw, but this time Suzuki blocked it and turned it into a choke in the middle of the ring. Suzuki set up the Karl Gotch piledriver, but Tanahashi powered out and hit the dragon screw. Tanahashi was bleeding from the mouth at his point and looked like he had just been in a war. Suzuki was kicking with the left leg until Tanahashi took out his right leg. Tanahashi finally hit the sling blade, which set up the high fly flow (frog splash). But Suzuki got his knees up. Suzuki was back to slapping the hell out of him. Tanahashi was on the apron being slapped around when he grabbed the leg and gave Suzuki a dragon screw over the rope. Tanahashi jumped to the top rope for a cross body. Suzuki kicked out. Tanahashi jumped back up and hit the high fly flow and got the pin. They did a five-star match without even prostituting one finisher, as Suzuki never hit the Gotch piledriver and Tanahashi won with his first high fly flow. *****

[Vice]

Where might somebody be able to watch this match, good sir?

[Defrost]

Where might somebody be able to watch this match, good sir?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeKCHbWudDE

[G-Fresh]

I could do that. No problem.

[Tainted Eclipse]

ugh i'll try it

[Defrost]

Honestly I think you'll like it

[Tainted Eclipse]

wow. my intuition stands entirely corrected, that match was really, REALLY good. i was so expecting it not to be that good that i'll have to rewatch it again to think about exactly how highly i'd rank it. but it was actually great.

[Defrost]

wow. my intuition stands entirely corrected, that match was really, REALLY good. i was so expecting it not to be that good that i'll have to rewatch it again to think about exactly how highly i'd rank it. but it was actually great.

Watching the match I actually thought to myself at one point, " Hey this seems like a match Tainted would like"

[Tainted Eclipse]

aw geez :happysad:

[Cewsh]

Ordinarily I would make some shitty comment here towards Tainted, but honestly him liking a Tanahashi match is an incredible endorsement of it it. This is something special right here.

[Tainted Eclipse]

So after watching it again: MOTY by a pretty considerable margin for me. Possibly match of the decade thus far. Tanahashi was actually straight up GOOD. Suzuki looked like the best wrestler in the world. I don't know about an all time classic, but as far as the modern NJ main event style goes, it's a perfect incarnation of it.

[DDT]

I absolutely marveled at the complete lack of overkill in that match. There was nothing like Cena giving Punk about a bazillion Attitude Adjustments and still not being able to put Punk away. Just simple, effective wrestling with two established characters; the main stream, pretty boy, baby-kissing babyface and the rough, tough, oldschool stretcher who thinks the way Tanahashi wrestles is not just disgusting but personally offensive (he pretty much said as much during the interview portion of the pre-match video).

[Defrost]

They were playing off Takada's twitter rant, ie Kevin Nash style begging for a gig, about Tanahashi

[Tainted Eclipse]

i dont know much about NJ booking methodology, is there any chance of a rematch any time soon? i would straight up BUY an iPPV with Tanahashi/Suzuki II.

[Defrost]

i dont know much about NJ booking methodology, is there any chance of a rematch any time soon? i would straight up BUY an iPPV with Tanahashi/Suzuki II.

It was Tanahashi/Suzuki II. Their first title match this year was at the Dome back in January. Tanahashi's next defense is against Yujiro on 11/11

[Ringo]

Tanahashi/Suzuki III for the year in fact, as MiSu beat Tanahashi at the G1.

Anyway, just finished the show and it's a hell of a fucking match. I read someone dismissing the air guitar spot as "dumb" or something and assumed Tanahashi had just done it unnecessarily late on, but that wasn't the case at all. It was a perfect trigger for Suzuki's aggression which led to the "destroying the arm" phase. As DDT (and Meltzer) said, they were able to put on a great title match without resorting to overkill or prostituting finishers. The figure four and sleeper spots were perfect imo, they really had you believing. Tanahashi's dragon screws were used at just the right times - he didn't overdo them. The slap battles were intense but not excessive, Suzuki's surprise dropkick after hobbling and choke suplex to bring Tanahashi to the ground garnered particularly loud reactions. It was just about everything you want from a title match.

If you're a fan of New Japan's current heavyweight main event style, it's been a terrific year, but this match was the jewel in the crown because it was the most smartly worked and well structured of them all.

Okada is looking the business so I'm looking forward to the Dome main event, but man I'd love to see Suzuki win the belt. Probably not going to happen as the new generation continue to dominate, but I'd love it.

[Defrost]

Where might somebody be able to watch this match, good sir?

Did you watch it?

[Beer-Belly]

Holy shit. I don't watch a lot of puro, but that was fantastic.

[Vice]

Did you watch it?

Not yet. Going to watch it with Cewsh whenever his dumb ass decides to hop online.

[Cewsh]

Not yet. Going to watch it with Cewsh whenever his dumb ass decides to hop online.

Oh shit, I forgot you were waiting on me for that. We'll knock it out tonight.

[Defrost]

So ever watch the match?

[Cewsh]

Nope, we never did. I never got around to getting the show to review it. I'd better get on that.

[Defrost]

My once a month asking of did you guys ever watch it?

[Defrost]

BUMP

From the newest Observer talking the best match of Mania weekend


9. Kazuchika Okada pinned Hiroshi Tanahashi in 31:41 with the Rainmaker to win the IWGP heavyweight title. Okada came out with an entrance with yen bills falling from the ceiling. The match started with the big buzz you only get for the big-time match. Tanahashi started working the left arm, including using a Fujiwara armbar and a keylock. Fans booed him when he wouldn’t break on the ropes. Okada came back with a DDT where he dropped Tanahashi on the top of his head on the ring apron. Tanahashi had this idea of a really cool bridging double armlock, but it took him five tries to get from that awkward position and kick high enough that he could bridge over. Tanahashi missed a crossbody off the middle rope and Okada quickly hit an Oklahoma side roll for a near fall and then moved into his DID submission. Okada used a dragon screw to further work the knee and a low running dropkick, knocking Tanahashi out of the ring. He went for a tombstone piledriver on the floor, but Tanahashi blocked it and drove Okada’s back into the guard rail. Tanahashi used all kinds of body punches, then rammed Okada’s left arm into the post three times. He did his big plancha. Inside the ring, Tanahashi did a flying forearm and started working on the right arm with arm wringers. What happened was Okada, after his left arm was worked over, moved he elbow pad from the left arm to the right arm. Okada would try and use the right arm but would sell like he hurt it. He used an elbow drop off the top rope but sold his right arm hurting. Great dropkick by Okada, who went for the STF but Tanahashi made the ropes. Tanahashi came back with a running dropkick and German suplex for a near fall. He then used Michinoku driver. Tanahashi went to the top rope but Okada did a standing dropkick that knocked Tanahashi off the top rope and to the floor. Tanahashi took a big bump and teased being counted out for 20, but got back in. Okada used a vertical suplex, but missed a dropkick. Tanahashi came back with two dropkicks. Okada tried the rainmaker lariat, but Tanahashi blocked it and hit a dragon suplex. Okada finally hit the rainmaker but Tanahashi kicked out. There were dueling chants at this point. Okada tried a tombstone piledriver but Tanahashi escaped and used a front rolling cradle for a near fall. Okada reversed that into his new submission move, which is a step over toe hold camel clutch combination. He had Tanahashi in it for a long time before Tanahashi made the ropes. Tanahashi then went to his finishing sequence, a crossbody off he top, a sling blade, a dragon suplex and a high fly flow to the back. Tanahashi went for the high fly flow but Okada got his knees up. The finish saw Okada go for the tombstone, but Tanahashi got out. Then both went for a gut wrench. Tanahashi went for a tombstone but Okada reversed into his own tombstone, nailed it, hit the rainmaker with the right arm for the pin. A classic of a match. Post-match after the celebration saw Suzuki come out, and tore up the rainmaker paper yen, slapped Tanahashi in the face and put Okada’s manager, Gedo, in a choke, before throwing him into Okada, laughing and leaving. They did everything right as far as set up and build for Okada vs. Suzuki and that’s going to be a major test for the promotion. *****

[Ringo]

Can you post Meltz's Mania ratings?

So that's two ***** ratings for Tanahashi now right? This and MiSu III. I don't think I saw ratings for stuff like Nagata '07, Goto '11 or the best Nakamura matches. I wonder what he would have given them. Also, did he do ratings for the Dome or any other recent NJ shows out of interest?

[Defrost]

Dave does ratings on all the NJPW iPPVs. I just posted the Mania star ratings in the Mania thread

[Ringo]

Cool. Where can I find a list? There is a website with ratings on which has like every promotion except New Japan. Basically I want ratings for the Dome and KOPW.

[Defrost]

Cool. Where can I find a list? There is a website with ratings on which has like every promotion except New Japan. Basically I want ratings for the Dome and KOPW.

I have no idea where to find I list. I have the star ratings because I have the Observers they were in. I'm pretty sure I posted the KOPW star ratings in the KOPW thread. I can post the Dome ones if you like.

[Ringo]

Dome would be cool, I'll track down KOPW :yes:

EDIT: yeah I found them and even commented on them. I remember now. Probably saw the Dome ones too.

[Defrost]

Posted in the Dome thread for you

[JP]

Guessing from the lack of bumpage for it, I'm guessing that Punk/Cena from Raw a couple of months back didn't get 5*?

A match which - storyline aside - was superior to the MITB match in every conceivable way.

[Ringo]

****1/2 he gave it.

[JP]

:lol:

Thanks Yoda.

[Defrost]

BUMP


August 4 - Osaka Bodymaker Colosseum (6,700 sellout)

5. (A) Tomohiro Ishii pinned Katsuyori Shibata in 12:17. Just an insane war that you’ve got to see. This was the Frye vs. Takayama version of pro wrestling. They went out back and forth like Frye-Takayama with elbows. Shibata landed a running kick and Ishii was back with a lariat. They traded elbows. Then Ishii kneeled down and dared Shibata to kick him in the chest. He did. Shibata kneeled down and told Ishii to give him his best chop. He did. They went back-and-forth with this. Finally, a Shibata kick hurt Ishii and Shibata pounded him in the corner. Shibata with more hard kicks to the chest but Ishii back with a powerslam as Shibata came off the ropes for a penalty kick. Ishii used a spinning heel kick and went for the penalty kick. Shibata caught the foot and lariated Ishii. Shibata with a Boston crab and then an STF. Shibata used a German suplex but Ishii was back with one of his own. Ishii with a lariat. More trading elbows and Shibata landed a hard kick for a near fall. Ishii did a head-but and Shibata was back with one. Both sold being knocked out. They had to do that spot in this match where they tease the double knockout but both got up at nine. Shibata got the choke on and Ishii was foaming at the mouth. Shibata landed a sick kick but Ishii came back with a lariat. Shibata kicked out at one. Ishii used a second lariat and Shibata kicked out again. Then Ishii used the brainbuster and got the three count. *****

[Cewsh]

Hmm.

I feel like I have a good handle on what makes Dave give a match 5 stars at this point. After all the wrestling that he's seen, he has a tendency to reward matches that take conventional tropes and go above and beyond in shocking ways. I don't necessarily agree that that's what makes a great match, but it makes sense when you look at the matches he's given it to in recent memory. In the case of this match, I thought it was very emotional and told a simple and effective story like all Ishii matches lately, but I feel like it crossed the line into "hard to watch" territory a number of times, and it kind of beat it's own gimmick into the ground.

Ishii's push at the moment is stellar, and this certainly helped to get it over further, but I much preferred the Tanahashi match, which told a similar story in a less cringe inducing way.

[Defrost]

I liked the Tanahashi match more too to be honest. I didn't find Ishii vs Shibata to be cringe worthy. Shibata's last match with Goto I did though. Their Osaka match was great but the July match was just sorta unpleasant.

[Tainted Eclipse]

It seems an odd rating and hard not to put down to the ultra enthusiasm that Dave and a lot of people have for New Japan right now. I liked the match a whole lot but there are a lot of wrestling matches that tell a good story and are put together well that are just as or more ridiculously stiff and violent. As far as crazy Shibata matches that are both brutal and good matches in their own right, give me Shibata/Akiyama from 2005 any day.

[TimeSplitter]

Where would we rate the Daniel Bryan gauntlet matches? They were some of the best TV matches I've seen in a while. Especially Cesaro. Hell, even Ryback looked good.

[Cewsh]

It seems an odd rating and hard not to put down to the ultra enthusiasm that Dave and a lot of people have for New Japan right now. I liked the match a whole lot but there are a lot of wrestling matches that tell a good story and are put together well that are just as or more ridiculously stiff and violent. As far as crazy Shibata matches that are both brutal and good matches in their own right, give me Shibata/Akiyama from 2005 any day.

New Japan is the best wrestling company in the world over the past 3 years by an unguessable margin. But this does seem like a weird match to give that bump to.

I think he gave the wrong Tanahashi/Okada match 5 stars too.

[Cewsh]

Where would we rate the Daniel Bryan gauntlet matches? They were some of the best TV matches I've seen in a while. Especially Cesaro. Hell, even Ryback looked good.

I would have a really hard time grading that all as one match.

[Defrost]

I graded it as one match. A gauntlet match is just one match.

[Beer-Belly]

What did you give it?

[Defrost]

I think the Bryan vs Swagger, Claudio(Can't remember his WWE name), and the Ryback was the best WWE match I have seen this year and I have gone out of my way to catch the stuff people talk highly about even if I am no longer a regular WWE viewer.

[Beer-Belly]

I saw it live in the nosebleeds and was absolutely amazed by the Antonio Cesaro portion of it. I went back and watched the televised version and thought it actually worked better if you view it as one match. There's no filler. It's certainly the best gauntlet match I've ever seen.

[Andy]

Anyone got a list of recent Meltzer ratings? I'm interested to see what he gave the Ziggler/ADR double turn match, Brock/Trips cage, Shield vs Hell No and Kofi and the gauntlet match if he does TV matches.

[Defrost]

The Cage match got ****. If you tell me what shows the other matches were on I can look them up for you.

[Tainted Eclipse]

it looks like this is the first time one promotion has had more than one 5 star match a year since ajpw in 1999

[Defrost]

huh that's true. I would have assumed ROH back in the hay day but no.

[Psycho666Soldier]

Ziggler/ADR was at Payback, the Gauntlet match was on the 7/22 episode of RAW, and I'm pretty sure the Shield vs. Hell No/Kofi match was the 5/20 episode of RAW.

[Cewsh]

huh that's true. I would have assumed ROH back in the hay day but no.

I think the only ROH matches ever to get ***** were Joe/Punk II and the Dragon Gate 6 man. Unless something like KENTA/Danielson did.

[Defrost]

I think the only ROH matches ever to get ***** were Joe/Punk II and the Dragon Gate 6 man. Unless something like KENTA/Danielson did.

Joe vs Kobashi got *****

ADR vs Ziggler at Payback ***1/2

The only tv thing he rated was Bryan vs Cesaro at ****

[Tainted Eclipse]

pretty sure he gave richards/elgin five.

[Andy]

Thanks Defrost. A little surprised he didn't rate Ziggler/ADR higher. I agree with the Bryan/Cesaro rating though, ie great but not as good as Cena/Punk. Also surprised he didn't rate the six man tag, for my money that's probably the third best match from WWE this year.

[Cewsh]

WWE matches tend to either be GREAT or somewhere between average and shit based on the star ratings.

[Atty]

To keep Meltzer in perspective, he gave Shawn/Flair and Piper/Bret *** 1/2

[Vice]

Aside from the Old Yeller ending to Shawn/Flair, and the retirement RAW that followed it, I actually don't remember it being that great of a match.

[Atty]

You son of a bitch.

[Defrost]

Bump


10. Kazuchika Okada pinned Hiroshi Tanahashi in 35:17 to retain the IWGP heavyweight title in a match. Okada’s got a major superstar entrance. The crowd was into this before it even started and felt like a major title match. Okada came from the apron into the ring with a rolling senton ala Eddy Guerrero. Tanahashi came off the ropes and started selling his right knee. He was selling great like the match would be stopped and then as Okada’s guard was down, Tanahashi attacked him. Crowd turned on Tanahashi there but the crowd went back-and-forth, more into whoever was selling. Tanahashi missed a somersault splash off the middle rope. Okada used a dragon screw and took over including hitting a flapjack for a near fall. Tanahashi missed a charge into the corner and Okada put him on the top rope, did his high dropkick and knocked Tanahashi to the floor. Okada whipped him into the guard rail and a running kick knocked him over he barricade. Okada did a draping DDT off the guard rail. Okada gave Tanahashi a DDT on the top of his head and went for a submission in the middle. Tanahashi made the ropes. Okada went to the top rope but Tanahashi slammed him off the top like in every Ric Flair match. Tanahashi did the rainmaker pose which the crowd hated. They were trading hard elbows back-and-forth. Okada tried a high kick, Tanahashi caught the foot and gave him a dragon screw. Tanahashi did a dragon screw twice on Okada’s right lariat arm. He stomped and head-butted the arm. Tanahashi worked on the arm with bolo uppercut forearms alternating with downward elbows. Okada went for his red ink (STF and camel clutch combination) but Tanahashi made the ropes. Okada finally landed his high dropkick in the middle, followed by a neckbreaker for a near fall. Okada went to the top for the Randy Savage elbow, but on landing, started selling his own elbow being out. Tanahashi used the Gedo clutch, in front of Gedo, for a good near fall. Gedo was furious at ringside. Okada hit the rainmaker and both went down selling hard, as Okada’s arm went out from all the damage Tanahashi had given it through the match. Tanahashi was selling like he was out cold. Okada took so long to recover and go for the pin that Tanahashi kicked out. It took so long fans expected him to do so. Okada went for the red ink, but gave it up because his arm was hurting. He tried it a second time and had Tanahashi in it a long time but his arm again gave out. Tanahashi was selling big. Okada went for a tombstone piledriver but his arm gave out again. Tanahashi went back to work on the arm, then hit a dragon suplex and the sling blade (flying clothesline). Okada charged after Tanahashi, who nailed him with a dropkick. Tanahashi went to the top with a crossbody. He went to the top again for the high fly flow but Okada rolled out of the ring. Tanahashi then did a super fly plancha as Okada was a good two-thirds of the way to the other post. But Okada hit a desperation tombstone piledriver on the floor. Both were selling and teased a double count out finish. Okada got in at 17 and Tanahashi at 19 ½. Okada was pounding and now the crowd was completely behind Tanahashi. Tanahashi went back to the bolo forearms to the arm and slaps, until Okada nailed a high dropkick. Okada hit another dropkick. Okada went for the rainmaker but Tanahashi ducked and hit the rainmaker on Okada for a super near fall. Tanahashi hit the Styles clash and hit the high fly flow to the back as Okada was face down. Tanahashi rolled Okada over and went to the top for another high fly flow, but Okada got his knees up. Now the crowd was chanting for Okada to come back. Okada dropkicked Tanahashi to the back. He went for the tombstone piledriver, but Tanahashi reversed. Okada reversed back and hit the tombstone. Okada went for the rainmaker four different times and Tanahashi would duck and nail him back over and over until Okada finally hit the rainmaker for the pin. This match would have been match of the year most years, but with this year having so much competition, it’s a wide open field. But it has to be under consideration. *****

[Hero!]

Jesus, another five-star between these two?

[Tainted Eclipse]

Honestly I can SEE it given the hype, the atmosphere/presentation of the match and the home stretch. But it wasn't a great match overall.

Looking through the wikipedia page I think this is the first matchup that's had 2 five star matches in a year sine Ozaki/Kansai vs. Toyota/Yamada in 1993. And the first time one company has had 3 five stars from Meltzer since AJPW in 1996.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

Gunna wait for Peter Griffin's review before I watch it.

[Defrost]

My favorite part of that review is the first sentence.

[Hero!]

Whenever this is up, send me a link, Deforest

[Defrost]

Whenever this is up, send me a link, Deforest

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1602a3_kazuchika-okada-c-vs-hiroshi-tanahashi-njpw_sport

[Defrost]

Bump


9. Hiroshi Tanahashi pinned Katsuyori Shibata in 17:57. The crowd was jacked for this one from the start. They traded sick elbows. Shibata missed a penalty kick and Tanahashi was landing ridiculous elbows like Shibata usually does. Shibata then came back. They traded elbows and bolo uppercuts until Shibata destroyed Tanahashi with elbows and dropkicked him off the middle rope to the floor. At one point they were trading elbows on the floor, oblivious to the count, and it looked like a sure double count out until both men dove in at 19. They do this spot a lot, maybe too much, in New Japan, but this was as good an execution of it as you can do. Tanahashi worked over Shibata’s knee. Shibata was slapping him to death until Tanahashi hit the dragon screw and went back to working the knee. Shibata side stepped the sling blade and used a back suplex, but Tanahashi used a German suplex. Shibata hit the penalty kick, but it was with the leg worked over and he started selling his knee. Tanahashi came back with two sling blades and a high fly flow, but Shibata got his knees up. Shibata had a choke, Tanahashi broke using a rolling reverse cradle, but Shibata kicked out and choked him again. Tanahashi ducked a penalty kick and hit a dragon suplex and a dragon screw, followed by a Texas cloverleaf. Shibata made the ropes. Tanahashi came off the ropes and Shibata hit a high dropkick out of nowhere. They traded elbows until Shibata used a spinning back chop. He set up the GTS, but Tanahashi got out with a dragon screw. Tanahashi used a sick running knee into the corner, a crossbody off the top and hit the high fly flow for the pin. After this war, with these two having the ten years of legit heat, the people popped huge with the unexpected post-match handshake, like they each understood both had their own paths in life but came back together. *****

[Psycho666Soldier]

God damn it. I was hoping to save the result of this match. First line is a spoiler.

[Defrost]

You've seen this thread before you know I post the review of said match why'd you click on it

[Psycho666Soldier]

I haven't seen this thread in almost a year if not more. Its easy to forget a detail like that. I don't see why it would have hurt to put a spoiler tag, or label the thread as "spoilers inside".

I'm not trying to bitch at you, by the way. It was just annoying.

[Beer-Belly]

You've seen this thread before you know I post the review of said match why'd you click on it

It's been a year since that last post. Would spoiler tagging it really be that big of a pain in the balls?

[Tainted Eclipse]

Wow, I hadn't even heard much buzz about that match and haven't watched it yet.

[Atty]

I haven't seen this thread in almost a year if not more. Its easy to forget a detail like that. I don't see why it would have hurt to put a spoiler tag, or label the thread as "spoilers inside".

I'm not trying to bitch at you, by the way. It was just annoying.

It's okay. If you're like me you'll forget those names immediately after reading.

[Tainted Eclipse]

It was a very good match, didn't really scream MOTYC at me or anything. I liked their G1 match better.

[Defrost]

It's been a year since that last post. Would spoiler tagging it really be that big of a pain in the balls?

Not really that so much as it never even occurred to me to do so

[thesamuelcooke]

Closer to **** stars than ***** for me. End was great though!

[Defrost]

I got yelled at last time so into spoiler tags this goes

10. Shinsuke Nakamura retained the IC title pinning Kota Ibushi in 20:12. Ross put Nakamura over as one of the most charismatic athletes in the world, comparing his unique charisma which he said he got from his love of Freddy Mercury and Michael Jackson, with the fact he’s an ass kicker, noting he fought in MMA. They pumped him up as maybe the greatest talent in the business, and Nakamura in this match came across as the best wrestler in the world today. Nakamura was the only guy who got a special ring entrance. He came out looking like the Statue of Liberty, and others thought it was a King outfit because he’s the King of Strong Style. In actuality, he was dressed as King Zarkon from Voltron in the Japanese version of Emperor Daibazaal. Ibushi missed a dropkick and Nakamura went to work with knees. They traded spots and Nakamura went for a handshake. When Ibushi did it, Nakamura gave him a knee and an ax kick. He went for a bom a ye, but Ibushi moved and dropkicked Nakamura in the back. Ibushi then did Nakamura’s spots, the vibration kick in the corner and then did Nakamura’s mannerisms. Nakamura took over with a knee, a running knee on the apron and a kneedrop off the apron while Ibushi was draped on the apron. Nakamura was slapping him around. Nakamura used a back stabber and went for a back suplex, but Ibushi landed on his feet and hit a Frankensteiner. Ibushi used a dropkick off the apron and followed with a moonsault off the top rope to the floor onto Nakamura. Back in the ring, Ibushi used a springboard hard dropkick. Ibushi went for a German suplex, but Nakamura blocked it. Ibushi had hard kicks, used a standing shooting star press for a near fall and went for a springboard, but Nakamura caught him coming off with a kick to the head. Nakamura used a spin kick and Pride style knees to the head of a grounded opponent. Nakamura missed the bom a ye and Ibushi landed a hard knee. He did a hard snap dragon suplex and a standing corkscrew moonsault for a near fall. Ibushi hit him with a roundhouse kick and Nakamura sold like he was knocked out. Ibushi used a last ride power bomb for a near fall. Ibushi missed his Phoenix splash finisher. Nakamura used a bom a ye to the back of the head. Nakamura was stomping and kicking the hell out of Ibushi. Ibushi came back with punches. Nakamura threw the ref into Ibushi and sucker punched Ibushi, knocking him down. In one of the spots of the night, Ibushi went for a clothesline and Nakamura moved, jumped up and took him down with a flying armbar. Ibushi broke it up doing hard stomps to the head. Ibushi then used Nakamura’s reverse powerslam, and then nailed Nakamura with a bom a ye, but Nakamura kicked out at one. They traded vicious attacks, punches to the back of the head and stomps to the head. Nakamura kicked Ibushi in the face. There was an incredible spot as Nakamura was coming off the ropes, Ibushi jumped up for a leap frog, Nakamura slid underneath him and Ibushi landed with a double foot stomp to the chest. Ibushi then did the move of the match. With Nakamura on the apron, Ibushi climbed to the top rope and brought Nakamura, who was standing on the apron, up for a German suplex into the ring which was as Cesaro type of feat of strength. Ibushi went for the Phoenix plex, that his best friend invented and taught him, but Nakamura broke it up with a head-butt and started throwing elbows like crazy. Nakamura hit a bom a ye to the back, a back stabber, a falcon arrow and finally a regular bom a ye for the pin. This was an all-time classic match. *****

[BabyBooboo]

I got yelled at last time so into spoiler tags this goes

10. Shinsuke Nakamura retained the IC title pinning Kota Ibushi in 20:12. Ross put Nakamura over as one of the most charismatic athletes in the world, comparing his unique charisma which he said he got from his love of Freddy Mercury and Michael Jackson, with the fact he’s an ass kicker, noting he fought in MMA. They pumped him up as maybe the greatest talent in the business, and Nakamura in this match came across as the best wrestler in the world today. Nakamura was the only guy who got a special ring entrance. He came out looking like the Statue of Liberty, and others thought it was a King outfit because he’s the King of Strong Style. In actuality, he was dressed as King Zarkon from Voltron in the Japanese version of Emperor Daibazaal. Ibushi missed a dropkick and Nakamura went to work with knees. They traded spots and Nakamura went for a handshake. When Ibushi did it, Nakamura gave him a knee and an ax kick. He went for a bom a ye, but Ibushi moved and dropkicked Nakamura in the back. Ibushi then did Nakamura’s spots, the vibration kick in the corner and then did Nakamura’s mannerisms. Nakamura took over with a knee, a running knee on the apron and a kneedrop off the apron while Ibushi was draped on the apron. Nakamura was slapping him around. Nakamura used a back stabber and went for a back suplex, but Ibushi landed on his feet and hit a Frankensteiner. Ibushi used a dropkick off the apron and followed with a moonsault off the top rope to the floor onto Nakamura. Back in the ring, Ibushi used a springboard hard dropkick. Ibushi went for a German suplex, but Nakamura blocked it. Ibushi had hard kicks, used a standing shooting star press for a near fall and went for a springboard, but Nakamura caught him coming off with a kick to the head. Nakamura used a spin kick and Pride style knees to the head of a grounded opponent. Nakamura missed the bom a ye and Ibushi landed a hard knee. He did a hard snap dragon suplex and a standing corkscrew moonsault for a near fall. Ibushi hit him with a roundhouse kick and Nakamura sold like he was knocked out. Ibushi used a last ride power bomb for a near fall. Ibushi missed his Phoenix splash finisher. Nakamura used a bom a ye to the back of the head. Nakamura was stomping and kicking the hell out of Ibushi. Ibushi came back with punches. Nakamura threw the ref into Ibushi and sucker punched Ibushi, knocking him down. In one of the spots of the night, Ibushi went for a clothesline and Nakamura moved, jumped up and took him down with a flying armbar. Ibushi broke it up doing hard stomps to the head. Ibushi then used Nakamura’s reverse powerslam, and then nailed Nakamura with a bom a ye, but Nakamura kicked out at one. They traded vicious attacks, punches to the back of the head and stomps to the head. Nakamura kicked Ibushi in the face. There was an incredible spot as Nakamura was coming off the ropes, Ibushi jumped up for a leap frog, Nakamura slid underneath him and Ibushi landed with a double foot stomp to the chest. Ibushi then did the move of the match. With Nakamura on the apron, Ibushi climbed to the top rope and brought Nakamura, who was standing on the apron, up for a German suplex into the ring which was as Cesaro type of feat of strength. Ibushi went for the Phoenix plex, that his best friend invented and taught him, but Nakamura broke it up with a head-butt and started throwing elbows like crazy. Nakamura hit a bom a ye to the back, a back stabber, a falcon arrow and finally a regular bom a ye for the pin. This was an all-time classic match. *****

Is Melt's PBP recap always that awful? That description of the finishing sequence <<<<<<

[Slare]

First ever NJPW event I have watched and the top two matches were two of the best matches I've seen in a long long time. Nakamura/Ibushi is in the top 10 matches I've ever seen and I went into it completely free of context and history. Just brilliant.

[Defrost]

Bizump


9. Tomohiro Ishii pinned Tomoaki Honma in 24:46 to win the vacant Never Open weight title. A must-see incredible match. They traded elbows right away. Then they started chopping the hell out of each other like the Kenta Kobashi vs. Kensuke Sasaki Tokyo Dome match. Big pop when Honma won the chop battle and hit the falling head-butt. From the start, the crowd was big into the idea of Honma winning the title. Even though the title was vacant, the crowd reacted to it like Ishii was defending. At one point, Honma tried a power bomb out of the corner but Ishii held onto the turnbuckle to stop the move. Honma eventually pulled him off, but Ishii then escaped the power bomb. Crowd was super hot when Honma kicked out of a delayed superplex. Honma ducked a lariat and hit the DDT and Ishii was selling like his right shoulder went out. He made that DDT more effective than any DDT in a long time. He sold it so well they teased a ref stoppage finish and got people buying it was a real injury. But Ishii wanted to continue. Then they started trading lariats, with Ishii selling the left shoulder. Honma used elbows, then hit a rabbit lariat (to the back of the head) which sent Ishii’s head into the steel turnbuckle, and Ishii was on the floor like he was knocked out. Honma then came off the top rope with a diving head-butt to the floor. That was nuts. The story was that Honma could have won the title at that point, but didn’t want a flat finish count out win, so he threw Ishii into the ring at 19. Honma landed a hard lariat, but Ishii just kicked out. Ishii hit a back suplex. They traded elbows until Ishii dropped him. Ishii then did a delayed top rope superplex, but on landing, it was Ishii selling that the left shoulder went out. By the time he covered, Honma kicked out. Honma used a Mascaras style cross head-butt and a delayed power brainbuster fora near fall. He then used a Mascaras style cross head-butt to the back of the head and a tombstone piledriver, but Ishii kicked out again. He did a falling head-butt to the back of the head and went to the top rope. He missed the diving head-butt and Ishii hit a desperation German suplex, but Honma popped up. Ishii got a one count with an enzuigiri. Honma did a shotgun lariat for a near fall. Then both nailed the other at the same time with a lariat and they both went down. They teased a double knockout finish but got up. At this point, both started selling the idea they were completely exhausted. They traded elbows, and then went back and forth until Ishii hit two- head-butts, a sliding rabbit lariat and finally hit a brainbuster for the pin. *****

[Hero!]

Figured as much. That's 2 for NJPW in less than 2 months. I got a good feeling about this year.

[Defrost]

Honestly I think I'd put my top 4 matches from this year over just about everything from last year.

[Hero!]

What else is in your top 4? Tana/Okada?

[Defrost]

1. Shinsuke Nakamura vs Kota Ibushi - Wrestle Kingdom 9
2. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Kazuchika Okada - Wrestle Kingdom 9
3. Tomohiro Ishii vs Tomoaki Honma - New Beginning in Sendai
4. HARASHIMA vs Kota Ibushi - Saitama Super DDT

[Hero!]

Good list. Haven't seen the Ibushi DDT match yet, but I may give it a watch at some point.

[Andy]

Meltzer is a terrible writer for a professional journalist.

[Defrost]

Meltzer is a terrible writer for a professional journalist.

He's always been a much better writer everywhere other than this newsletter. Whether it be The National or the LA Times or Yahoo Sports or wherever. I think it might just be the nature of the beast where he writes so much in that newsletter and it has to be out on Wednesday no matter what every week.

[Ringo]

Was expecting the big 5 for this one. Tomohiro Ishii now has the same number of ***** matches as HBK. :cool: And HONMA has more than most wrestlers ever.

[Defrost]

Well here is a dreaded five stars. It is the minus five stars.


2. Los Villanos III & IV & V beat The Psycho Circus in 11:06. Before the match they honored Tropicasas as this was to be his final match as referee. It would have been a billion times better if he ran in as a the face ref at the end of the Alberto match. Striker compared Tropicasas to Terry Funk. I think the only thing the two have in common is they each wear handbands and both have been around wrestling for 50 plus years. Marisela Pena, the owner of AAA, was almost in tears when Tropicasas came out. I believe he is the only person left from the first AAA show ever in 1992. Konnan and Mysterio were there from the start, but they both left after a few years and then came back whereas Tropicasas was always there. They did a photo feature on the screen of Los Villanos, including showing their father, Ray Mendoza, one of the biggest stars in Lucha Libre history. Los Villanos came out wearing their masks even though two of them had lost the masks. They made a deal with the commission that for the final match they could wear their masks from their heyday as long as they unmasked in the ring after the match. The Circus had the most elaborate ring entrance with circus performers around the ring including unicycle riders. Crowd was hot for both teams at the start, although you’d never know it from television. Villano V was terribly overweight. This was a terrible match with no heat. Villano III had a stroke several months back and couldn’t do anything. The crowd was forgiving, because it was Villano III’s last match and he is a legend. At one point, Villano III tagged in, and apparently suffered a dizzy spell and fell down. This wasn’t a sell. They started doing weapons spots. They kept pushing how the Alvarado family and Mendozas were one of the biggest feuds in Mexico. Psycho Clown, who I believe is the only clown who is a member of the Alvarado family, used a diving head-butt on Villano III, but refused to pin him on two different occasions, with the idea he respected him too much to beat him in his last match. The live crowd had no idea what he was doing. They didn’t understand the story. Villano IV then used a low blow to pin one of the Clowns. The post-match was touching with the clowns hugging Tropicasas. Villano III and V unmasked. The ring filled with members of the Villano family including younger kids with Villano masks on. Joaquin Roldan (Marisela Pena’s husband who plays the face authority figure) thanked Villano. Tropicasas was in tears when he left the ring. The idea behind this was to build a Villano V vs. Psycho Clown mask vs. mask match, although that didn’t come across at all on PPV. I was scared that if they unmasked Villano V it would be Psycho’s father under the mask (Porky). The Psycho Circus led Villanos chants when it was over. The post-match was good, but as for the match, -*****

[Defrost]

And in the same week

9. Hiroshi Tanahashi pinned Shinsuke Nakamura in 32:15 to win the G-1 Climax tournament. Masahiro Chono, the only five-time winner in G-1 history, came out for commentary. Then Keiji Muto came out. Muto got a big pop. Match started slow. They did their trademark spots early, such as Tanahashi with the middle rope senton, Nakamura with the vibration kicks, until Tanahashi did the high fly flow to the floor. They were trading elbows and the selling was just awesome by both. Tanahashi missed a crossbody off the top, and Nakamura used a running knee, a back stabber and a reverse powerslam. He set up for the bom a ye but as he ran in, Tanahashi dropkicked his left knee. He used a dragon screw into the Texas cloverleaf. Nakamura got out. Tanahashi missed a high fly flow and Nakamura used a bom a ye off the middle rope with the same left knee that had been worked on. The idea was the one knee didn’t have the usual power, so eh went for another, but Tanahashi used a rolling reverse cradle into a back bridge for a near fall. Nakamura used an ax kick and hit the bom a ye, but Tanahashi kicked out. Tanahashi used the Cody Rhodes’ crossroads, which in Japan is called the twist and shout. Tanahashi hit the sling blade , hit the crossbody off the top and hit the high fly flow, but Nakamura kicked out. That’s basically the sign they were going for the match of the year when someone kicks out of the high fly flow. Tanahashi got behind him for a German suplex, but Nakamura head-butted backwards. They traded slaps until Nakamura hit a falcon arrow and a landslide, but then collapsed so he couldn’t follow up. They went back to trading elbows. Nakamura started with the Pride knees to the head on the ground, and tried a guillotine. Tanahashi came back and they traded knees and slaps until Tanahashi used a dragon screw. Nakamura used the flying armbar and rolled into fighting for a regular armbar, then went for the triangle and an armbar. Tanahashi maneuvered to the top and started kicking Nakamura in the head to break it. Nakamura then hit a bom a ye and there was a last second kick out. The crowd popped when they announced they had hit the 30 minute mark. Japan is the only place left that does that but it works there. It ended up with both men standing on the middle rope fighting. Tanahashi was facing the ring and Nakamura had his back to the ring. Nakamura teased using an Olympic slam, but Tanahashi got out and they traded elbows. Tanahashi then did a crossbody block from the position onto Nakamura, still standing on the middle rope, landing like a crossbody inside the ring. Tanahashi hit a dragon suplex for a near fall, a high fly flow to the back and a high fly flow to the chest and got the pin. *****

[Defrost]

Bump

10. Kazuchika Okada pinned Hiroshi Tanahashi in 36:01 to win the IWGP heavyweight title. This was a classic on par with the Tanahashi vs. Nakamura G-1 final match. The first big spot was Tanahashi doing a chop block on Okada’s right knee. Usually you work the left knee, but Tanahashi was working on both knees. They did a lot of stuff early where they’d evade the others’ trademark spot with the idea they each knew the others’ big moves ahead of time. Tanahashi did a high fly flow but Okada rolled through and picked him up for a tombstone piledriver, but Tanahashi escaped. Tanahashi tried to put Okada into the turnbuckles, but Okada blocked it and dropkicked Tanahashi off the apron and Tanahashi flipped and landed on his back. Okada kicked him over the barricade and then did a running crossbody over the barricade onto Tanahashi. That’s the move Tanahashi did to Okada in previous matches. Tanahashi missed a middle rope senton and Okada DDT’d him on his head. Okada sidestepped a dropkick to the knee while Tanahashi moved out of the way of a senton. Tanahashi escaped a flapjack, so this was more escaping the big moves. Tanahashi went back to working both legs. He did a dragon screw on the right leg around the ropes and a sling blade on the apron. Tanahashi followed with a high fly flow off the top rope to the floor. Okada barely beat the 20 count. It was a great spot, as he teased getting in, and then suddenly collapsed like his legs gave out, and struggled to get in at 19. Tanahashi did a high fly flow off the middle rope to both of Okada’s knees. He went for a Texas cloverleaf but Okada struggled to the ropes. Okada came back and used the neckbreaker over the knee, but injured his knee again in the process. Okada did four low dropkicks and then a missile dropkick two-thirds of the way across the ring. He followed with the Randy Savage elbow halfway across the ring. He set up the rainmaker, but Tanahashi ducked. Okada went for a tombstone but Tanahashi turned it into a front rolling cradle for a near fall. Tanahashi went back to working the knees. Okada went for a dropkick but Tanahashi caught his legs, used another dragon screw and went back to the Texas cloverleaf. Okada again got to the ropes. Tanahashi hit the sling blade but missed the high fly flow. Okada tried a tombstone but again Tanahashi escaped. Tanahashi tried a neckbreaker but Okada blocked it and finally hit the tombstone, and hit the rainmaker, and Tanahashi kicked out. Matt Striker then said how this match is not going to end with somebody doing their trademark move. Not sure that it’s smart to take heat off the future big moves, not to mention it did end with a trademark move. Okada then did a high fly flow halfway across the ring for a near fall. Okada went for the rainmaker, but Tanahashi ducked and hit Okada with a rainmaker for a near fall. Tanahashi went back to kicking the right knee and thigh. Okada tried a tombstone, but Tanahashi got out and hit the sling blade, followed by a dragon suplex for a near fall. Tanahashi did a high fly flow to the back, and another high fly flow to the chest, but Okada kicked out. Tanahashi went back up for another high fly flow, but Okada got up and dropkicked Tanahashi as he came off the top rope. Okada went for a German suplex but Tanahashi slapped him. Okada then hit a dropkick. Okada used a German suplex and went for the rainmaker. Tanahashi ducked and slapped him in the face. But Okada maintained wrist control and hit the rainmaker, held onto Tanahashi’s wrist and hit a second rainmaker, and still held on and hit a third one for the pin. Tanahashi was helped to the back, completely beaten, while Okada and Gedo cut a promo to close the show as Okada finally was the end of the show star at the biggest event of the year. *****

[Hero!]

Knew it. That match was flawless.

what were the other ratings for the show?

[Andy]

Just watched it. I was half asleep and will need to watch again but it seemed like Okada didn't sell the knees much.

[Defrost]

Knew it. That match was flawless.

what were the other ratings for the show?

Rambo: *
Jr Tag Title: ***3/4
Never Trios Title: **
ROH Title: ***1/4
Jr Title: ****
Tag Titles: ***3/4
Naito vs Goto: ***3/4
NEVER Title: ****1/2
IC Title: ****3/4
Heavyweight Title: *****

[Morrison]

Just watched it. I was half asleep and will need to watch again but it seemed like Okada didn't sell the knees much.

of course.

[Defrost]

Chopped in the fucking throat


Tomohiro Ishii pinned Kazuchika Okada in 18:43. This was a hard physical match from the start. Ishii was delivering killer chops. Okada came back with elbows. Okada dropkicked Ishii to the floor, whipped him into the guard rail and kicked him over the top. Okada used a draping DDT off the guard rail to the floor. Okada kept the offense until setting up the rainmaker, but Ishii chopped him in the throat and followed with a second one and a German suplex for a near fall. Okada used heavy rain for a near fall. Next they each missed big moves as Ishii got out of a tombstone, Okada missed a dropkick, and Ishii missed a sliding lariat. Ishii used a dropkick, which he never does, and popped the crowd. Ishii also used a top rope superplex and a sliding lariat for near falls. He went for the brainbuster, but Okada kneed him in the head. He tried a second time and Okada got out and dropkicked Ishii to the back and hit a second drop kick. He did three low running dropkicks for a near fall. Okada threw all kinds of elbows and a super dropkick. Okada set up another rainmaker but Ishii got out and hit an enzuigiri. Okada ducked a lariat and hit a German suplex. Ishii ducked a rainmaker and landed two head-butts. Ishii tried a brainbuster but Okada reversed and went for a tombstone. Then both were fighting from the gut wrench position until Ishii used a sick tombstone piledriver, a running lariat and go the pin with a brainbuster. *****

[Nash Diesel]

I'm not a Japanese wrestling savant like I was back in the days of Kenta Kobashi, Hashimoto, etc. so I haven't really had a chance to watch a ton of Ishii, literally like 10 matches if that. I haven't liked any of them lol. I don't know why but there's just something about him that doesn't do anything for me. My son is big into Japanese wrestling and he's baffled by my opinion of him as well. But with that said, there has been a lot of buzz about this match. I just hope it's not the same buzz that surrounded Michael Elgin v. Davey Richards where it was like the greatest ROH match in a long time and it was pretty subpar lol.

[Andy]

Posted this in the thread...

So, that Ishii match. I heard all the hype and watched it, and I've come to the conclusion that that sort of wrestling just isn't for me. He just kicked fuck out of the guy. And dropped him on his head so dangerously. It just made me cringe.

[Percussion]

Spoiler nazi alert, not bitching here just asking, is there any chance that a fiver could be listed in here for who and where it took place with the rest of the content hidden?

I don't follow much of wrestling globally like I have before, and this kind of match is just the kind of thing I'd go out of my way to seek out, just with the preference to not know the outcome ahead of time with it.

Like I said, not trying to rain on parades here, just a request.

[Zeroice]

Is it fair to say Meltzer has a bias towards Japanese wrestling? Like what's the last American match he gave 5 stars too?

[DDT]

2012. Davey Richards vs. Michael Elgin.

Before that, 2011, John Cena vs CM Punk.


His 'bias' isn't a bias. New Japan is in the midst of their renaissance where their main event roster is littered with legit GOAT-tier wrestlers (one of whom, Shinsuke Nakamura, WWE snagged), similar to how All Japan was in the 90s. If it was a bias, then he'd be wanking it to Dragon Gate matches all the time (with the rest of the Western puro fanbase), and the only 'Dragon Gate' system match he ever gave 5 stars to took place on American soil.

[Atty]

Meltzer is just a hack with a chink fetish.

[Hero!]

Njpw is just out-wrestling every other promotion on the world. Ishii is such a fucking machine too.

[Tainted Eclipse]

New Japan is in the midst of their renaissance

this was 2012-2013

[DDT]

this was 2012-2013


*shrug* Their currently running on the NOAH-fumes then, which still makes them better than most.

[Atty]

Trump will build a wall to keep this matches out and make American wrestling great again.

[Sasori]

Is it fair to say Meltzer has a bias towards Japanese wrestling? Like what's the last American match he gave 5 stars too?

The matches that happen in New Japan are just a level above what you see anywhere else. I'm starting to think we need a rank above 5 Stars. Originally, the highest was 4 Stars, but then that Lawler/Funk match happened and it was so good they decided to give it 5 Stars. This way all the Nakamura/Zayn's can get 5 Stars and the Okada/Ishii's can get:


https://67.media.tumblr.com/d4625f7cc4e80134853564575317804c/tumblr_o0q476clWC1r93976o1_500.gif

[Zeroice]

The matches that happen in New Japan are just a level above what you see anywhere else. I'm starting to think we need a rank above 5 Stars. Originally, the highest was 4 Stars, but then that Lawler/Funk match happened and it was so good they decided to give it 5 Stars. This way all the Nakamura/Zayn's can get 5 Stars and the Okada/Ishii's can get:


https://67.media.tumblr.com/d4625f7cc4e80134853564575317804c/tumblr_o0q476clWC1r93976o1_500.gif

If that's the case, then over 5 stars should....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik

[Honey_Badger]

It's hard for me to ever rank a NJPW match 5 stars. I don't follow the storylines on a weekly basis, nor do I understand the commentary, so it's hard for me to become emotionally invested in the match. There were spots in Okada versus Ishii that I felt were awesome, but overall, I thought the beginning was slow and the match could have been cut 5 minutes and probably garnered the same, or better, result.

For instance, I thought Gargano and Ciampa delivered a much better match with a deeper story. That said, I don't follow NJPW so I have no clue what the story behind Ishii and Okada is.

[Nash Diesel]

I don't think there is a story outside of trying to win the G-1. It's just straight up competition basically. You're not going to get a ton of WWE style storytelling in Japan, it's just not really their thing. Almost every top feud was very "simple". Maybe they trained together, tagged together, jealous of each other's success or lack thereof. It's almost all about the match itself. As time goes by, I think they've incorporated more in depth stuff I just don't really follow it as hard as I used to when I was in high school and had the free time to read mags and keep up.

[DDT]

They are in the same stable, CHAOS. Ishii is a near-40 year old vet that, due to his size, look, and age, only VERY recently finally broke the mold of 'dumpy jobber dude'. The few times he got a singles match he shinned, but it wasn't until 2013 when he was given a spot in the G1 Climax that he finally emerged as a big player. Okada is the Golden Boy. He's been main eventing since 2012 and only just recently entered his late 20's; he's so young he's never seen an Antonio Inoki match, which is like never seeing Ric Flair wrestle. He went from 'sucky newbie' to 'HOLY SHIT THIS ISN'T FAIR HOW IS ANYONE THIS GOOD?!' literally over the course of one night.

So Ishii is sort of Okada's bodyguard and older friend; it wouldn't be unfair to call the relationship similar to Flair and Arn from the 4 Horseman.


Now, Okada is coming into the G1 Climax as the champion, and is tied for the lead in his block; a win will put him firmly in the lead, with almost no way to catch up to him. He could become the first IWGP Champion to win this tournament in YEARS (since 2000) and pretty much cement his legacy as the new Ace of New Japan. Meanwhile, Ishii is hanging onto contention in this tournament by the skin of his teeth. Even if he wins tonight he might not get to the finals, but a loss would mathematically eliminate him. Besides, this is the CHAMPION. A win here would almost certainly get him in title contention, only second ever.


So there's your story, Honey. Okada is the younger, bigger, better-looking MEGASTAR who thinks he can cakewalk through his guard-dog, and Ishii refuses to let this PUNK ruin the few opportunities he has left; fuck Okada, fuck fan expectations, and fuuuuuu~uck his age. That's a BIT deeper than Gargano and Ciampa's 5-minute friendship bringing both to tears and teasing a break-up we know won't happen. Just saying.

[Honey_Badger]

That's fair, man, and I appreciate you explaining the backstory. If I had read that previously and maybe caught a clip or two of their pervious interactions, I would have enjoyed the match more.

I admitted I don't understand much outside of the actual match itself. I'm sure in most fans eyes this match topped anything WWE or Ring of Honor has delivered all year. I've never seen a NJPW event while it aired, live, outside of Wrestle Kingdom 9, which was a complete coincidence. That said, WK9 was incredible and that Ibushi/Nakumara match still ranks as a top 10 match of all time for me.

I'm not trying to present myself like a professional on a topic I barley understand, just attempting to become more involved in New Japan. After seeing the talent they deliver like Ibushi and Nakumara in WWE, with the former originally catching my eye in NJPW, I am intriqued to follow the company more.

[Hero!]

As much as I think he's a self-absorbed windbag who likes to sniff his own socks at night, DDT is the man to go to when you have puro questions. Dude knows every obscure storyline, yes even that one.

[DDT]

As much as I think he's a self-absorbed windbag who likes to sniff his own socks at night, DDT is the man to go to when you have puro questions. Dude knows every obscure storyline, yes even that one.

I fucking hate you, too. :heart:

[Psycho666Soldier]

Spoiler nazi alert, not bitching here just asking, is there any chance that a fiver could be listed in here for who and where it took place with the rest of the content hidden?

I don't follow much of wrestling globally like I have before, and this kind of match is just the kind of thing I'd go out of my way to seek out, just with the preference to not know the outcome ahead of time with it.

Like I said, not trying to rain on parades here, just a request.

I said something about this quite a ways back in the thread. I feel like the results/review should be spoiler-tagged for this exact reason, but I don't think it's gonna happen.

[Honey_Badger]

I posted this elsewhere but after recent conversation here, I felt it was justified...

I just watched Omega v Naito and all I can say is... WOW. Omega sells better then anyone in modern day wrestling. The physchology in the match was flawless and they told an incredible story. I didn't understand a word they said, nor did I have any knowledge of a backstory, but it all clicked. The springboard flip to the outside after the power bomb on the table. Omega's high knew followed by a slingshot DDT off of the apron. The selling. The never say die attitude from Naito. The ending. Just WOW. Kenny Omega is amazing. I am in love with everything about this man and will follow his career now. 6 out of 5 from me. Match of the year, over anything WWE has done. Again, just WOW!

[Defrost]

Bizump again

9. Kenny Omega pinned Tetsuya Naito in 28:12. So the strategy here was whether Naito should just stall for the draw and advance or take risks for the win. Steve Corino noted that because the finals were the next afternoon, the goal should be to win with the least punishment and the quickest because Goto did very little in his match and was rested up. Both men started by spitting in each other’s faces twice. Omega missed a plancha early and sold the left knee for the rest of the match. At one point Naito tried to whip Omega into the barricade and Omega just collapsed. Omega came back and power bombed Naito through a table. Omega did a springboard flip and nailed Naito on the other side of the guard rail. They nearly killed Corino in the process and destroyed his headset. Omega did a fast dragon suplex on the apron and another in the ring. They went back-and-forth in one of the year’s beat bouts. Naito did a huracanrana off the top and Omega turned it into a sunset flip for a near fall. Naito did a German suplex, Omega flipped and landed on his feet and continued to sell the knee. Omega went for the one winged angel but Naito turned it into a kneebar. Omega was selling like crazy and teasing tapping. The ref was about to call the match when Omega grabbed the ropes. Omega came back with a jumping knee, a German suplex, a doctor bomb and went for the One Winged Angel, but Naito reversed into a Destino. Naito was too dazed to make the cover. Naito then did this incredible reverse Frankensteiner off the top rope for a near fall. Omega blocked the destino and hit a sick tombstone piledriver and two jumping knees. He tried to the One Winged Angel but his knee gave out. He tired ti again but couldn’t get him up. Naito started slapping him in the face but Omega fired back. Naito went for a flying forearm but Omega hit the jumping knee. Omega then won with a German suplex, a jumping knee and the One Winged Angel. Omega cut a promo after the match. Fans were chanting his name. He said that the reason he didn’t leave like others was because Japan was his home. Everyone started cheering and then he turned on the fans for cheering for Naito over him. He said that he proved he was the MVP of this year’s G-1. *****

[Sasori]

:hyper: New Japan has been bringing it!

[Kdestiny]

I know next to nothing about NJPW, but I agree with that rating. Jesus.... that was really something.

[Honey_Badger]

I posted my review before Meltzer and fully agree. If there were a 6 star rating, that match would earn it.

[Hero!]

Catching up on G1. Saw Ishii/Okada and it was brillz. Need to watch Omega/Naito and Omega/Goto. G1 season is so fuckibg great.

[Tainted Eclipse]

if NJPW has a five star match in 2017 they will be tied with AJW 1993-1999 as promotion with most years in a row with a five star match from meltzer.

[Peter Griffin]

I think Defrost is secretly Meltzer.

[Defrost]

Meltzer gave Cole and The Bucks vs Ricochet, Ospreay, and Sydal from the 2nd night of BOLA *****

[Sasori]

That's funny because Meltzer was in the audience and after the match everyone was chanting "FIVE STARS!" and looking at him. Unfortunately, he didn't hold up five fingers which people said would have made for a great moment. It's a shame since he ended up giving it 5 Stars anyway.

[Hero!]

Between BOLA and his abs, Meltzer is having a hell of a week

[Slare]

Im glad he didnt raise the hands up to placate those geeeeeks, probably better that he didnt. Also, Hero, the ab talk was fucking brilliant on WOR

[Hero!]

Better than johnny mundo.

[Defrost]

Naito vs Elgin got the full five

[Hero!]

Well deserved. Great match. Michael Elgin sold that knee spectacularly and Naito's heel work shone through brilliantly.

That's 2 fiver-stars for Naito in the last year, no?

[Psycho666Soldier]

Definitely. I put that right up with Okada/Omega, and if it wasn't for the stakes of Okada/Omega, Elgin/Naito would hands down be the better match. It was definitely worked better. Elgin's selling was fucking superb.

[Tainted Eclipse]

i did think it was a great match and elgin's selling really made it. feels like it needed more from naito for it to really be a top-tier, blow away MOTY quality match.

[Hero!]

More how? I thought Naito played the heel game so well. He played mind games with a fired up Elgin, the continuous spitting on him, and the overall fuckery with elgin's knee. I thought it was an excellent match from start to finish.

[Ringo]

Wrestling seems to be so divisive these days. The first review I saw for this match in the PWO thread is as follows:


Typical New Japan main event 'epic'. The first half was completely forgettable, the work Naito did on Elgin's leg was sold pretty badly by Big Mike. The match only got interesting once they kicked into the finishing gear w/ them just throwing big bombs at each other, but even then, it wasn't very interesting. *

Just about to watch Takahashi/Lee from Osaka and this match is up next.

[Hero!]

Takahashi and Dragon Lee are gonna end up with a five star at some point too. They're feud is just so vicious

[Tainted Eclipse]

i think they could definitely have a classic match but everything they've done so far is way too spot-festy for me. the spots are incredibly impressive no doubt, but none of their matches i've seen struck me as legitimately great.

[Andy]

Not five stars, but interesting to note that since Meltzer rated Charlotte/Bayley ****1/4, Bayley now has the three highest rated women's matches in wwe history. Same rating as the iron man while her match against Sasha in Brooklyn got ****1/2

[Honey_Badger]

HEY!!!! WE LOVE SOME BAYLEY!

[Sasori]

I think Meltzer gave the match where Sasha won the title for the first time ***3/4 and I thought the Bayley match was better so that rating sounds about right.

[Defrost]

Dave gave Okada vs Shibata five stars

[Andy]

Ridiculous

[Defrost]

Don't see how that's ridiculous. If I was rating it I'd give it the same. Why do you say that?

[Andy]

For the same reasons I argued against its validity as a wrestling match in the thread.

[Defrost]

You need to watch some Battlarts if you think that was rough

[Ringo]

Did you watch the whole match Andy? That head butt spot was one spot.

Regardless, if you don't like things stiff then I guess a Shibata match just isn't going to be for you. Have you seen the Takahashi/Dragon Lee match from New Beginning or Okada/Ibushi from the Anniversary show? Those are a couple of recent New Japan matches that might be more up your street.

[Tainted Eclipse]

heres a video clip of the headbutt. if you think it looks bad, wait til you hear the sound.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wsR7XYHhGM

[Morrison]

Did you watch the whole match Andy? That head butt spot was one spot.

Regardless, if you don't like things stiff then I guess a Shibata match just isn't going to be for you. Have you seen the Takahashi/Dragon Lee match from New Beginning or Okada/Ibushi from the Anniversary show? Those are a couple of recent New Japan matches that might be more up your street.
of course he didnt. he's just gonna harp on about it for no reasonand probably never watch it cause he's a sensitive bore. he'll say he has no interest in seeing shit like that as justification for not watching it in full and drone on any time it gets brought up.

[Andy]

No, that's not true at all. I did watch the match and I watch any match that is massively hyped. I have an interest in anything that's really talked about, whether it's something from Japan or Matt Hardy's stuff. I thought this match was good, but when you headbutt yourself into a bleeding brain, it's not longer wrestling. I felt the same about an Ishii match that was really hyped, I think it was WK last year. It was just two guys beating the shit out of each other.

I've watched the last two WKs in full and thought there were some truly outstanding matches. I've got nothing against Japanese wrestling, just this type of match in particular. It's dangerous and stupid. And I think it's irresponsible of Meltzer, who has such influence, to give a match five stars when one of the guys has done something so stupid and dangerous that he may never wrestle again.

[Nash Diesel]

But do you honestly believe the influence of Meltzer is "We better crack our craniums open so we get a 5 star match!" That match wasn't given a 5 star rating because of that spot. It'd be like saying because he gave HBK v. Taker @ Bad Blood 5 stars you have to get speared head first into a steel cage and fall 15 feet through an announce table all while former Fake Diesel comes out and kills you.

So no, it's not irresponsible for Meltzer to give this match a 5 star rating if he felt it was a 5 star match. Had Shibata broken his neck would it have been any different in terms of your opinion? Again, to me it sounds like you're saying his influence is so strong people would be going out of their way to try and give themselves brain damage in hopes they get a 5 star rating. I'm sure a very very small % of wrestlers give a shit about Metlzer's 5 star rating and even less will try and use his criteria-which there isn't any-to get him to reward their match with a 5 star rating.

[RuneEdge]

How much do people in Japan care about Meltzer and his ratings?

[Nash Diesel]

How much do people in Japan care about Meltzer and his ratings?

About as much as fans in Afghanistan.

To be honest who knows....They treat pro wrestling like we treat baseball so I honestly would not be shocked if they print his newsletter in the paper.

[Ringo]

The thing is, I wouldn't even say that Meltzer has a preference for stiff matches. His thing is workrate, high spots and crowd engagement. He's given higher ratings to Tanahashi/Oakes matches than Ishii or Shibata matches that lots of people thought were better. I'm almost surprised he gave this match the full five stars.

[Nash Diesel]

This match was 3 stars at best only because I've seen both of them in much much better matches in just the last 2 years alone.

[takerson]

Why do people care about Dave's opinion so much? It's just an opinion. Like jeez. And when I was sat next to him on WM Weekend, people kept coming up to him like he was Jesus Christ and I'm like... why? He's a dude with an opinion, like we all are, who cares how many stars he gives? Serious question: Why do you all care so much?

[Cewsh]

Dave clearly likes matches in which guys are either stiff enough that their work looks real, or in which they actually harm themselves to make it look real.

His 5 star matches are primarily King's Road, the stiff as fuck Joshi period, and any time someone headbutts the shit out of someone else in New Japan. Not to mention his love of ladder matches.

[Caveman89]

Why do people care about Dave's opinion so much? It's just an opinion. Like jeez. And when I was sat next to him on WM Weekend, people kept coming up to him like he was Jesus Christ and I'm like... why? He's a dude with an opinion, like we all are, who cares how many stars he gives? Serious question: Why do you all care so much?

I get why people hold him in high regard ,but my sentiments pretty much echo yours: people tend to take his word as gospel, but at the end of the day, IT'S JUST ONE MAN'S OPINION.

[Defrost]

Dave went full five for KUSHIDA vs Will Ospreay

[Morrison]

jesus, njpw is on some kind of level. seven five star or better matches since january of 2016, six of them coming in the last ten months. ya gotta go back to 95-96 all japan or 89 nwa to even find a promotional run even comparable.

[Slare]

Why do people care about Dave's opinion so much? It's just an opinion. Like jeez. And when I was sat next to him on WM Weekend, people kept coming up to him like he was Jesus Christ and I'm like... why? He's a dude with an opinion, like we all are, who cares how many stars he gives? Serious question: Why do you all care so much?

Because he is the most respected wrestling journalist in wrestling history, has written more words about wrestling in his life than anybody has written about anything, devoted his professional life to the study and analysis of wrestling, has watched more wrestling matches than probably anyone else in the world (barring a handful of people maybe), has links and friends within the business who offer him insight that we don't have, etc. etc. etc.

Don't try and make out that hes just some scrub that turns up to NXT with cupcakes.

[HHHnFoley_Rulez]

Don't try and make out that hes just some scrub that turns up to NXT with cupcakes.

:spit:

Wow..

I wonder if Dave will watch Cobb Vs Riddle from SSS16 Day 2 and just say it was shit and we're all marks.

[Defrost]

Dave goes to every PWG show. He is a big fan of those two guys.

[Peter Griffin]

Dave is a cunt.

[Beer-Belly]

Meltzer readily admits that his match ratings shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Honey_Badger]

Any opinion based rating system for a predetermined competition should not be taken seriously. That said, it's a nice way to go back and find old matches to watch.

[Andy]

I feel like he's gone way over the top recently just to wind people up. Giving that Shibata match five stars could only be a wind up.