The best Final Fantasy

[Vice]

There has been some talk recently about which one is the best, and it's one of those topics that will always be debated.

So, which one is the best/your favorite?

For me, it's VII. I don't even have to think about it. Love the way everything is set up, the designs, the characters, the wacky story.. all of it. It's one of those games that I could just play forever.

Your turn.

(get it? because they're turn based!)

[Hero!]

The only one of these that I've played is tactics. I loved it, but it took too god damned long to beat the game. I just quit playing at some point.

[Excel]

VII all the way.

truly monumental epic story. Other than one or two, the most filled out characters. Great pacing, fantastic reveals, brilliant fights, worthwhile sidequests, enough freedom while still linear enough so that you dont really get stuck.

and there was always something I loved about playing as a small group of freedom fighters taking on an evil corporation government only to get swallowed into this much bigger mess. That reveal when Shinra is killed and Cloud says that "This is a true danger to the planet" and you realise, "oh fuck, this shit just got serious" is great.

Not only that, but I think as my first FF game, i wasn't expecting the world map. So when I finally left midgar and realised "Oh shit, man that was all just one small part of this game!!" and realised how massive and epid it was, that was a good good moment for me.

[Matthew]

tactics

[Cewsh]

I well and truly think it was VIII.

The first game of its kind to have realistic (for the day) character models, and a love story that actually felt like a love story and not just some shit tacked on when it was convenient.

Then there was the Junction system which allowed for a level of customization that Final Fantasy had never really tried before, and never got right again, allowing you to customize every single stat of your character however you wanted, but forcing you to prioritize certain stats and magic types early on to keep things competitive.

Then you have the stable of characters who all had a realistic reason for being there, a story which was incredible deep and thorough and had twists that still surprise me, and some of the most perfectly done cinematics in gaming history, and you have yourself a fucking gem. That's not even mentioning the battle system which let you fight in about 800 different ways and the tactics that were entirely changeable based of skills acquired instead of restricting jobs or classes, and a World that actually felt full to the brim with stuff to do and find.

So fuck yeah I thought VIII was the best. It's my favorite game of all time, and if it weren't for Star Ocean 2 it would be my pick for best game of all time as well.

[jesus sucks]

the best one is VII. sold the PS1, best storyline, best music, most original and memorable setting of any game in any genre.

[Cewsh]

I will seriously dispute the best music bit.

As Uematsu got better technology to work with, his music really kept getting better and better until he left Square.

[Dubya]

There has been some talk recently about which one is the best, and it's one of those topics that will always be debated.


So, which one is the best/your favorite?


For me, it's VII. I don't even have to think about it. Love the way everything is set up, the designs, the characters, the wacky story.. all of it. It's one of those games that I could just play forever.


Your turn.


(get it? because they're turn based!)

Agreed .. VII is a masterpiece. I quite like VIII a lot, but VII is the one for me. I have a special place for the original on NES as well.. but definitely VII all the way.

[Grimario]

I've only ever really played VII to any great length... though I did spend about a bajillion hours playing Blitz Ball on my housemates save game for.. X? :dunno:

Have there been any proper awful FF games though? I don't think I have played a proper stinker though haven't had a relevant console since X.

[Cewsh]

12 is legitimately not fun to play, X-2 is meaningless for the most part and all of them before V are varying degrees of dated to the point of irrelevance.

[S.C.O.S.E.]

Like Cewsh I think there is a lot to be said for VIII. Trying to get every card on Triple Triad turned from a mere pass of time to a complete obsession. There were so many fantastic battles in that one too, such as Adel and Edea scuffles, and Ultimecia was a fantastic end boss.

VII is simply untouchable, however.

[Grimario]

What are the various mini games in each FF game?

I know of Blitz Ball (which I think was X without being certain)... and I have vague recollections of some card game as well. What else was there?

[Cewsh]

VII = Chocobo Breeding
VIII = Triple Triad (card game)
IX = Another card game.
X = Blitzball

[Mark Hammer]

Final Fantasy 6 was definitely my favorite followed very closely by Final Fantasy Tactics. 7 was a good game but it is over-rated as it is generally considered the best FF. I'm sorry but it's not.

Speaking of FFT I reeeeeally wish they would make another one in the same vein as the first. The GBA and DS versions are shit in comparison and nothing at all like the game I loved for so many years.

[Cewsh]

You're probably going to have to supply some betters reasons than "I'm sorry it's not."

[Mark Hammer]

That's fine, sorry for my laziness.

Like I said, 7 was a good game. It just pains me how much 6 tends to be overlooked (has anyone so far even mentioned it besides me?). I couldn't tell you how many times I've played FF6 from beginning to end. The story was just incredible and they did an amazing job getting you genuinely invested in each one of the (14 I think?) playable characters. Not to mention the fact that FF6 had the most despicable antagonist in Kefka than any game I can think of. Finally getting your hands on him at the end was great.

Again I'm not trying to pass 7 off as a dud because it certainly wasn't. But I think a huge bit of it's appeal was the fact that it was the first 3-D "new gen" Final Fantasy and 6 got the short end of the stick being on a soon-to-be-obsolete system. I've played both games and 6 was hands down more enjoyable and memorable to me.

[Cewsh]

My biggest problem with VI was definitely just how balls out unfairly hard it got out of nowhere all the time.

[Mark Hammer]

I never had that problem although I did spend plenty of time leveling up.

[Cewsh]

But every fucking enemy could, and would, eviscerate you in any battle.

It just got tiring.

[Mark Hammer]

With all due respect to you Cewsh it sounds like you just sucked at it. There were hard parts but I never had a huge problem with the enemies.

You're not referring to the Phantom Train are you? :p

[Cewsh]

The train sucked, but I was doing fine until that fucking place in the clouds where you CAN'T FUCKING LEAVE AND ALL THE ENEMIES ARE SUDDENLY WAY HARDER.

[The_Mike]

You're probably going to have to supply some betters reasons than "I'm sorry it's not."

Well he also had "it's over-rated". Case closed, I'd say. :p

I would say VII in a heartbeat, but VIII keeps tugging on my trousers, reminding me of its existence and I have trouble being so definite about it. VII is my favourite of the series, no doubt about that, but that doesn't make it the best. It is wrapped in the nostalgia of being the first RPG I played properly on my own, at a time in my life when I still had enough imagination to get lost in the magical world and really feel part of the fight against Shin-Ra, and as my first ride its surprises can never be replicated. Like Excel said, I started the game thinking I was fighting against a greedy corporation in the slums of one city, then holy shit I've got the entire planet to save and an epic adventure laid out before me. It really is a game I love, and to just sit in the Sector 7 church and hear that MIDI music brings the feel of the game rushing back.

However, there's a lot to be said for VIII. The characters probably were a bit more rounded - I loved VII's, but they were a bit archetypal, as if they were skeletons that VIII's character design turned to flesh. Squall's feelings for Rinoa seemed to develop organically, rather than him loving her because they're the two lead characters and that's what happens. The school feels like a proper community, and working for SeeD gives the early part of the game a good structure and focus. I wish there had been more SeeD missions to take part in, really.

One thing I didn't like about VIII though was the idea that they were all friends from an orphanage and then ended up forgetting about it. It was a plot point that just didn't seem to quite turn out right. Maybe something got lost in translation but to me it never seemed to quite fit.

IV and V were fun but I only played them once and they were a bit dated, though enjoyable stories. VI is pretty awesome but limited in terms of what you can do (and rather hard to be accessible to non-hardcore RPGers). IX I really liked, but it is kind of derivative, just some good fun. X I enjoyed as a story, but it didn't quite reach the heights of VII and VIII. XII failed as a story but made grinding tolerable, then XIII was a decent tale (even if I have forgotten most of it already) but that story seemed to be painted over an empty shell. Anyway, while I love VII, I can see an argument for VIII being seen as genuinely better. I'd need to think on it some more, but that's my thoughts on the games I've played.

[Mark Hammer]

The train sucked, but I was doing fine until that fucking place in the clouds where you CAN'T FUCKING LEAVE AND ALL THE ENEMIES ARE SUDDENLY WAY HARDER.
The floating island. Very tough spot although there are two places where you can return to your airship if you need to.

As obvious as it seems the key is to level up the shit out of the three characters you're taking to fight alongside Shadow (who will suck as up to that point he's hardly ever in your party). The Esper level up bonuses are very important to look at too.

[jesus sucks]

Have there been any proper awful FF games though? I don't think I have played a proper stinker though haven't had a relevant console since X.

Final Fantasy X is the shit one for me.

the worst about that game is due to the fact since it came out in 2001 and was the first big Sqauresoft game on the PS2, the game has alot of people who are about 21ish now saying it's the best one in the series, because it's the first they played.

didn't enjoy 12 either. but it came out at a time i wasn't really playing games so i only really played it for 15 hours and didn't give it a chance. i played right X up until the end boss so i feel justified in saying it is very shit.

[jesus sucks]

case in point :D

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/500986050_ARZvw-L-2.jpg

[jesus sucks]

Final Fantasy 6 is the 2nd best one imo. it's like VII on a smaller scale. complex serious story, big music themes. epic quest. just in 16 bit graphics. if you play it now and also Chrono Trigger you can see Square were just about to peak and do something very special with the next game (FF7).

[Mark Hammer]

So I read some dreadful news recently that the FF6 DS remake is now non-existant, due to "hardware issues" (bullshit). They're pitching it for the 3DS which irritates me as now I have to buy one of those if I want to play it.

Easily one of the top 10 games of all time, Final Fantasy 6.

[jesus sucks]

i've still got it on FF Anthology import and about a year ago i picked it up on the Snes from a seller in New York like. because the load times are bad on the PS1 version inbetween battles, and the game is a grind fest so that got annoying iirc. should really get round to replaying it this year and also Chrono Trigger as the Battery backup in some of my snes games is starting to fail.

[Grimario]

Final Fantasy X is the shit one for me.

the worst about that game is due to the fact since it came out in 2001 and was the first big Sqauresoft game on the PS2, the game has alot of people who are about 21ish now saying it's the best one in the series, because it's the first they played.

didn't enjoy 12 either. but it came out at a time i wasn't really playing games so i only really played it for 15 hours and didn't give it a chance. i played right X up until the end boss so i feel justified in saying it is very shit.

But... BLITZ BALL?!?!

I loved that, probably too much :(

Never really played the actual game though, so can't comment much.

[jesus sucks]

One thing I didn't like about VIII though was the idea that they were all friends from an orphanage and then ended up forgetting about it. It was a plot point that just didn't seem to quite turn out right. Maybe something got lost in translation but to me it never seemed to quite fit.

i remember that being the part that ruined the game for everyone at the time. including myself. i love FF8, it came out during my final year of school and loads of us bought it and talked about what part we were up to each lunchtime. so good memories. and i think the Laguna Loire flashback storyline is as good as anything in 7. possibly better. as a whole game though i don't think it's anywhere near as good as 7. FFVII is underrated now if anything. a couple of years ago it became cool to say it was overrated and that [insert game] is better. before that it usually topped every best game reader poll i saw for an entire decade, only other game as highly rated was Zelda oot.

[The Doc]

Final Fantasy VI is hands down the best. It's got the most epic story, lots of good twists and an entire cast of heros that are easy to fall in love with and magically not all of them are actually required. Things like waiting for Shadow at the end of the world and slowly regathering your friends, half of which don't really want to bother anymore. It's simply amazing.

Final Fantasy VII is a GREAT game but most people who love it love it for the same reason a generation of gamers swear by Golden Eye (don't go play it again, just be happy of your fond memories) or will scream about how Halo is teh greatest thing EVAH!!!! It's quite simply because that was the game most of them broke their cherry. Now there is something to be said for a game popping that many cheries, you don't do that by sucking it's just the game isn't the godsend. And it will ALWAYS poll higher, that doesn't make it better, it makes it more popular. Marvel vs Capcom 2 is plagued by balance issues etc etc (But it sure is fun. So fun we kept screaming to get it back)

I'm kinda shocked at the love of VIII here. Most gamers I knwo treat that game like the black sheep. I don't want my FF THAT real. I want Chocobos and floating castles.

12 isn't a bad game, the problem is it's NOT Final Fantasy. They made something new and exiting and instead of trusting it to stand on it's own they slapped the FF label on it. (Something Square used to have a REALLY bad habit of but they've gotten better. Final Fantasy Legends/Mystic quest anybody?)

[Vice]

I really enjoyed breeding chocobos in VII. Yeah it took a lot more effort than it should have, and racing the shit out of them over and over again was tedious, but I always got great joy out of the babies being born. If they were of the proper color and gender of course, because if they weren't perfect, I'd reset and load it up again because I'm racist and sexist like that.

Then when it was finally over and the gold chocobo was born, it was just.. delightful.

[eldanielfire]

Can i say all of VI, VII, VIII and Chrono Trigger?

VI had argueably the best game play of them all with the most varied battle characters, the fact of the best twist mid game where you find out the read 'big bad' and effectively the hero's lose. Heart breaking

VII as many have said had the most epic story, genuine emotion, outstanding characters and it was perfectly tied round the epic plotline.

VIII does much of the same but takes it to greater depths and in an even more epic story. Among the greatest ever endings to a FF game.

Chrono Trigger is spiritually a Final Fantasy and is the most inventive game of the lot. Epic story, brilliant use of time travel.

Not the best one, but a shout out to FF IV. That set the template for all future FF games. Adding in character's to care about, tragic events and twists leading to a even more epic adventure. Underrated.

[RuneEdge]

I'd probably give you a different answer to this question, depending on when you asked me. I used to think FF6 was my favourite but I think I've settled with FF10.
FF6 was my first which I played on the SNES, and I went on to play all the rest whilst playing the previous ones in between.
I never quite got the hype of FF7. I think the only explanation I can give is that it came out at a pivotal moment in gaming history, with the era being (atleast what I consider) the biggest step forward with everything moving to 3D, piracy becoming a lot more common, and for most of people I speak to, this generation was when they were first introduced to gaming. So more people would have had FF7 as their first Final Fantasy.
IMO its hard to judge a Final Fantasy properly unless you played the game at its time, and not went back to play it.
But yeah, I think Doct1400 explained this better than I did.

As for the reason why I didnt like FF7, I thought the game didnt really have much going for it other than its story. And even that is overrated. I mean, first of all the game didnt really have a good technique learning system. FF5 was great with the job system. FF6's Espers were great. Even FF9 where you had to equip weapons to learn off them was fun. But the Materia system was garbage IMO. In every other FF game, the system was addictive enough to the point where I'd want to power level up just to build up the magics that I've learnt. FF7 didnt have me doing that. Another problem I had was how in FF6, every character had their own unique ability (Sabin with Blitz, Locke with Steal, etc), even in FF9 and FF10 they had their own abilities. But in FF7, every character was potentially the same. It's things like these that ruined the experience for me cuz I dunno about you guys but most of my time in RPG's are spent doing battles and leveling up, and it just wasnt fun for me.

[Alf]

I'm torn between 7 and 8...

7 was the first RPG I had ever played. I'd just moved away from where I grew up to live in Norwich, and I was caining the PS1 hard. I had the morning off before college so went to trade in some games at GAME... I couldn't find anything I liked the look of but they had the platinum version of FVII there and with my trade-ins it was free, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

I took it home and was a bit bewildered. The random battle thing was a bit weird for me but for some reason I was hooked straight away. I died a heck of a lot but kept playing and playing... I didn't go into college that day and just kept playing. I sunk about 60 hours into in total I think. I'd never played a game with a rich storyline before, or a game where you give a shit about the characters... and I did give a shit about them. When Aeris died I was proper shocked. I too thought it would just be about Midgar, but then when I go onto the world map I was like 'holy shit, this game is serious'.

BUT...

VIII was an incredible gaming experience for me too. The love story (yeah I know this is going to sound GAY) was genuinely touching. The cinematics were epic... that bit where Rinoa is floating in space and you jump out to resuce here was tremendous. And I genuinely wanted to fuck the stuffing out of her. My love for ladies of the asian persuation stems from her. I was totally sucked into the story... and yeah it was a bit lame that they were all from the same orphanage.

Anyway, I can't really remember... but isn't it left ambiguous about Laguana beind Squall's father or something?

Anyway, both are incredible, VII is probably the better game, but I think VIII means more to me.

[Cewsh]

It isnt really spelled out but if you add it up, Squall is the son of Laguna and Ellone's mom, the one she died while giving birth to while Laguna was on his adventure.

That's why they did the bit with Julia, who was Rinoa's mom. Two generations of star crossed lovers.

[Torn]

Final Fantasy X is the shit one for me.

the worst about that game is due to the fact since it came out in 2001 and was the first big Sqauresoft game on the PS2, the game has alot of people who are about 21ish now saying it's the best one in the series, because it's the first they played.


Ahaha this is exactly the position I'm in. I loved Final Fantasy X, I'm 21 and it's the first one I played. I haven't played the earlier ones though so I'm not going to say outright it's the best one.

[Cewsh]

It makes sense, though.

Compared to the ones X and on, everything VIII and early looks like dogshit now.

[Mark Hammer]

Since we're on that topic it's worth noting that FF6 was my first, although I don't feel that is why it's my favorite.

[The_Mike]

Final Fantasy VII is a GREAT game but most people who love it love it for the same reason a generation of gamers swear by Golden Eye (don't go play it again, just be happy of your fond memories) or will scream about how Halo is teh greatest thing EVAH!!!! It's quite simply because that was the game most of them broke their cherry. Now there is something to be said for a game popping that many cheries, you don't do that by sucking it's just the game isn't the godsend. And it will ALWAYS poll higher, that doesn't make it better, it makes it more popular.

By contrast, something being very popular does not preclude it from being the best.


I'm kinda shocked at the love of VIII here. Most gamers I knwo treat that game like the black sheep. I don't want my FF THAT real. I want Chocobos and floating castles.

FFVIII had Chocobos, floating schools, and a giant floating castle at the end of time. I have heard this argument a lot from people who dislike it, but I really don't see where they are coming from, because the game was still very fantastical, it just wasn't medieval or steampunk.

[Alf]

It was a bit steampunky though.

And it was full of magic, summons, sorceressess and mythical creatures...

[The Doc]

True. Something can be fantastically populare, Mario 64 comes to mind, and still be damn good if not the best.

FF VIII just felt inheritly wrong to me and a lot of gamers. Just like XII felt/feels just off. And I enjoy XII (VIII I think it might be time to go back and give it another shot at least) but I enjoy XII, even if I didn't beat it and got caught up in a choke point and haven't touched in months.

I haven't tried XIII yet (haven't had cash to spare) is it excellent and more importantly does it FEEL right?

[Kure]

I really liked both 7 and 8. 7 was the first game of a truly epic scale I ever plaid. My parents didn't allow video games in the house, so my first console was a ps1. 7 was the first game I bought, along with Tekken. If only for that reason, 7 will be one of the greatest games I ever played on ps1, along with Metal Gear Solid.

[Mark Hammer]

Anyone who hasn't played 6 is REALLY missing out. Ok I'll shut up about it now.

[Atty]

This is a thread I'd love to see polled, but there's a lot more than 10 options. I guess if the options were more selective and left out the likes of 2-5 (which really won't get any votes anyway), Final Fantasy US, the sequels/prequels to 7 and the MMO, it could work.

My personal favorites are 7, 6 and Tactics. Out of the bunch, 7 would probably get my vote, but I think 6 is the most flawless and probably best overall game. The graphics aren't anywhere near as good in 6, but the simplicity of it allows it to run smother and it works off what it has perfectly. 7 really changed the direction of gaming. One of the earlier major console games to be fmv heavy, it really helped define not only the series but gaming in general.

Tactics was totally different than anything in the series and for that I love it. It's been far too long since I played it, but I remember loving it and getting a kick out of the fact that any character could die. First time through I lost one of the characters needed to get Cloud without realizing it. After looking up how to get him, I did a second run through just to do that.


One that I haven't seen mention of here is 9. I'd rank that well above 8, 10, 10-2, 12, 13 and so forth. Always fond it the underrated game because it went for a throwback in character design rather than realism. Kind of like how a lot of people underrate/skipped over Wind Waker based on the style of the game rather than trying it.

[The_Mike]

It was a bit steampunky though.

I wouldn't say so - steampunk tech would look kind of old world but be capable of fancy or magical things (i.e. like a steam-powered airship) but VIII's technology seemed very advanced and rooted in more futuristic stuff like electronics, missiles, jet aircraft and so on.


I haven't tried XIII yet (haven't had cash to spare) is it excellent and more importantly does it FEEL right?

If you thought VIII didn't feel right, I can't imagine you liking XIII very much. It is very, very futuristic. A lot of the settings are like Coruscant from the new Star Wars films, and it's full of guns and power armour and that sort of thing. There is a tiny Chocobo, though.

[Alf]

I wouldn't say so - steampunk tech would look kind of old world but be capable of fancy or magical things (i.e. like a steam-powered airship) but VIII's technology seemed very advanced and rooted in more futuristic stuff like electronics, missiles, jet aircraft and so on.




Yeah, it's all modern looking but I think at the same time it's quite steampunky. Well, at least as steampunky as FFVII.

Their clothing. Their weapons. Balamb Garden's outside design is steampunky crossed with modern.

[The_Mike]

I don't think I could disagree more. Clearly we have different definitions of steampunk.

[Cewsh]

My issue with IX is just how absolutely miserable and confusing the last act was. You play this great, witty old school adventure for 40 hours, and then they just totally change the rules and the tone on you 100%.

It just makes it hard to even want to play the last disc.

[wardy]

My mates say VII is the best and I've tried to get into it so many times but just cannot hack turn based fighting. Might as well get the 12 sided dice out.

[Motherboy]

I'm playing VII again right now and it still gets my vote as the best. I agree with everything Alf said about VIII (other than it being steampunk-ish), but that moment in VII where you're all standing to leave Midgar and the somber version of the world map music is playing, then you arrive on the world map and the full version hits clinches it for me.

Jesus, that still breaks my heart. That world seemed so endless when I first played it.

[Excel]

Glad to see so many of you agree with the scope of 7 once you leave midgar. It really was a huge moment for me, like the game had now kicked it into high gear.

the only problems I have with 7 are the now dated gameplay, but that still holds up fairly well, and the ending which i thought for a game of its scale was a bit too short and disappointing.

Although I prefer 8's gameplay, even with the Draw system, I just cant see the characters as particularly interesting. I never grew to love them like I did Cloud, Tifa, Barrett and Aeris. i also found that the whole Orphanage thing to be a really cheap way of tying everyone together. It felt too simple. Like "Well many of the characters in 7's lives were ins ome way intertwined, we have to do the same with 8. Lets just say they all gre up together but forgot about it". It was weak man.

In 7 the relationships are complex. Cloud and Tifa knew each other as kids until Cloud left town to join Soldier, and although Cloud always thought of her as his childhood friend, in reality it turns out they were never really that close, and his perception of their relationship was skewed by time (and Mako). Cloud took on the life of Zack without realising it, and Zack was in a relationship with Aeris before he was captured. Aeris and Cloud feel an attraction, which turns out to be because Cloud has become Zack. Once this is realised Cloud realises his feelings for Aeris arent what he thought they were but in a way they are even more powerful. Tifa and cloud develop a true affection for each other, and Tifa cares despite how fucked up Cloud is. She sees through all that. Barrett met Tifa in the slums and became friends and Barrett has as much reson to hate Shinra as she does, so they get on well.

Theres much more to it than all of this, but its easy to see how much more entangled and complex and interesting all the relationships are than "They were all orphaned together and Irvine wants to pole Selphie up the bum".

[Dreyski]

I've only played XII and X-2, so Cewsh is going to hate me :p

For me, 12 takes a lot of the RPG element out of it by eliminating random encounters (which are a major pain in the arse IMO). Add to that fully rotatable viewpoints, so no dodgy camera angles, and beautiful graphics and music, the gambit system, the license board.
It's not perfect (I'd prefer Basch to be the main character rather than Vaan, and to complete the pirate's den requires an obscene amount of luck), but I wouldn't spend around 250 hours of my life with an absolute dog of a game.

X-2 again requires luck to do well in. I consulted on-line guides too late in the storyline and ended up missing out on several dresspheres and side missions :mad:. I may have to start again, but don't know if I can be arsed with all the gay cutscenes which you need to watch for the 100% completion.

[Mark Hammer]

No biggie but the thread should probably be "Your Favorite Final Fantasy" as opposed to the best as it seems there are a handful who haven't even played the actual best one.

[Dreyski]

http://spoonyexperiment.com/category/final-fantasy-viii/

[Cewsh]

I don't mean to hold this against the game, but the relationships in FFVII aren't nearly that complex actually within the game.

The relationship between Cloud and Tifa is just plain empty throughout the entire game, and lacks any definition whatsoever that you don't apply yourself after the fact. Cloud has his stuff going on, but whther or not he and Tifa, or frankly even he and Aeris are romantic is seriously never explained. Frankly he never pays an ounce of special attention to Aeris between Midgar and her death, which muddles things a lot, and then he seems to just put up with Tifa's puzzling obsession over him.

Most of the characters are similarly one dimensional. It fits the tone of the game, but I find it hard to accept an argument that VII's STORY DEPTH is what it has over everyone else.

[Atty]

Cloud's a paedo who nailed Jailbait.

[jesus sucks]

thing is Cewish you say that and then list your favourite one as VIII. that game had 4 or 5 totally peripheral characters (quistis, zell, irvine etc) an end boss that you didn't know anything about until 2 hours before the end of the game, a dues ex-machina orphanage plot twist that renders the first half of the game pointless, and a love story where both characters can't stand eachother for the first couple of discs, then rinoa falls ill and suddenly squall falls in love with her, she wakes up and is in love with him too.

the characters were the worst thing about VIII. stupidly epic, great set pieces, great art style, great music. but to criticise VII's characters (brilliant, memorable by absolutely everyone whether they've played the game or not) ... then say VIII is your favourite is bizarre.

[Vice]

Cloud's a paedo who nailed Jailbait.


It's a shame things didn't work out with LOL pwned.

--

Squall irritated me a lot throughout VIII, mainly because half of his lines of dialog was simply "....", which I found extremely annoying.

[Excel]

"...whatever"

[Cewsh]

thing is Cewish you say that and then list your favourite one as VIII. that game had 4 or 5 totally peripheral characters (quistis, zell, irvine etc) an end boss that you didn't know anything about until 2 hours before the end of the game, a dues ex-machina orphanage plot twist that renders the first half of the game pointless, and a love story where both characters can't stand eachother for the first couple of discs, then rinoa falls ill and suddenly squall falls in love with her, she wakes up and is in love with him too.

the characters were the worst thing about VIII. stupidly epic, great set pieces, great art style, great music. but to criticise VII's characters (brilliant, memorable by absolutely everyone whether they've played the game or not) ... then say VIII is your favourite is bizarre.

It isn't bizarre at all.

Squall was a teenager dealing with serious emotional trauma in his past and the story is about him opening up to his friends and the woman he loves. Rinoa was a runaway not used to serious commitment, and it's also about her letting someone save her for once. Quistis was a teacher who thought she loved Squall and tried to deal with the feeling she had for him by putting up a stern front. Selphie and Zell are there mostly for comic relief, but Selphie has a relationship develop with Irvine in an organic and innocent (on her part) way, and Zell doesn't have some crazy backstory trying to make him more than he is. He's just a hyper guy who gets caught up in everything and is one of the first people Squall lets get to know him. Not to mention Irvine's whole badass persona that they emotionally broke apart with the sniping thing and the tortured destiny of Cid and Edea.

They aren't two dimensional people with a wacky backstory and then no continuing character development. They're actual people who react to each other like people might. And the craziest thing is that none of those things I said are things you have to agonize over extrapolating from the game after you finish it. It's written in all over the place as part of their world.

The end boss came on later because the crisis came on later, and it made perfect sense because things progressed one after another leading to that point. I've never really understood why in the hell you have to see the villain from the get go for them to work as the boss. The bitch was possessing people from the get go and working behind the scenes.

The orphanage wasn't the strongest plot device, though I really didn't mind it, and I wont defend it for being more than what it is, a way to tie the story together and give an emotional reason to continue on the way they were going. It kept everyone involved in the plot, though, whereas games like VII, IX, and X seemed to forget half the characters were even still there towards the end and gave everyone a reason to be important and I really do like that.

The fact is that it was a game that I, and many others, actually felt something emotional from, which means that the people in there were real enough to relate to. And while I think VII was a lot of fun, I can't imagine in a million years feeling that way about it. So no, it's not bizarre that it's my favorite.

Honestly, I think it's bizarre it isn't more people's.

[Cewsh]

It's a shame things didn't work out with LOL pwned.

--

Squall irritated me a lot throughout VIII, mainly because half of his lines of dialog was simply "....", which I found extremely annoying.

As opposed to "_____"?

[Atty]

...

[Bill Casey]

I got bored with Final Fantasy VIII; I quit right after beating the train mission...
I just didn't care about any of it...

More power to those who enjoyed it...

[Grimario]

Which game had the blue animal looking thing whose name started with K (I think)? As you can tell, I haven't played many of the games (and certainly nothing for 8+ years) but I have vague recollections of that game being my favourite (apart from the 300 hours in blitz ball :ashamed:)

[Bill Casey]

That's Final Fantasy 10...
Kimahri...

[The_Mike]

Cewsh is putting up a really solid defence of VIII here. It's actually starting to win me over, because I do have very fond memories of the game as well, and I felt a real emotional connection with the story. To say the characters were the worst thing about the game seems an enormous stretch to me. The Final Fantasy moment I probably remember most after Aeris' death is Irvine utterly collapsing when trying to assassinate Edea. That really tugged at the heartstrings.

I still really love VII's characters, though. I think the Cloud/Tifa/Aeris relationship is genuinely interesting and well crafted, and I cared for the backstories of Barrett, Cid, Vincent and Red XIII as well. Yuffie kind of annoyed me and seemed superfluous but she wasn't a necessary character anyway. Cait Sith, I have to admit, seemed a bit two dimensional, but overall I don't think it's fair to say the story (rich in symbolism, moral ambiguity and plot twists) or the characters (generally complex individuals with clear motives drawing them together) were lacking in depth.

[Tainted Eclipse]

i havent played VIII in, um, i think 7 years but i really loved it. by memory one thing to its favor what that i felt squall worked better than most ff characters as just some guy who unwittingly got caught up in some crazy adventure. had a lot of charm to it and a unique feel. i'd love to play it again if i ever had time.

still ff7 is my pick. in terms of setting and mood i think it's a legitimately impressive work of art.

[jesus sucks]

i never really find myself agreeing with any of the criticisms of 7 tbh. to me it's just a flawless computer game. i've replayed the majority of it over the last year since it came out on PSN, and i still can't find anything wrong with it. sometimes it seems even better than when it was a new game.

only thing wrong with it was the pal conversion which is horrible. any british posters get a us account and download it from america to experience the game properly.

[The_Mike]

I am intrigued - what's so bad about the PAL conversion and how would I go about getting a US account on the Playstation Network?

[jesus sucks]

I am intrigued - what's so bad about the PAL conversion and how would I go about getting a US account on the Playstation Network?

20% slower, letterboxed squashed gameplay with massive borders at the top and bottom of the screen. as with all squares PAL releases, a bag of monkey crap.

to get an american account you create a new account on the US playstation website, using an american address. any real address with zipcode will do. then you buy your codes from one of the websites that sells PSN codes and emails it out. you use the code to credit your account, download the game to that account, and then you can play the game on any account on that PS3 console. much easier than back in the day when you had to pay someone on ebay 50 quid to sell you a 2nd hand copy and hope it arrives from The States.

[The Doc]

Cewish really is putting on a solid defense of VIII. Enough that I might have to find a friend who can still find their copy and dig it out and see if I remember it poorly for other reasons. I also remember it being SUPER easy, like I tore through the game until Ultimacia (or whatever her name was) took away my toys and since I couldn't find my best toy again (and was REALY dependant on it) got frustrated, but still. I'm willing to give it another shot. Sides I practically play games all day. And it's been too long since I've done a FF all together run.

[Dubya]

VIII is good .. I liked it a lot more a couple years later. I think some people (myself included) were turned off by it at first, but mainly because it wasn't VII .. that's my problem with all the post-VII games .. they're not VII.

[The_Mike]

I wonder if a lot of people were disappointed with VIII because they weren't so familiar with the series and were expecting a sequel of sorts to VII. With VIII being radically different in story, characters and tone, I can see why it would be a surprise.

[Jenova]

Only Vice would come up with a poll for this :p

Definitely VII story wise and the replay value.

VIII - I kinda hated the draw system. Card game kicked ass.

IX - was kinda close w/ VII as the MP was brought back and went back to having 4-member parties.

X - voice acting albeit lackluster but the story was ok....Blitzball = :yes:

XI - Didn't care about it.

X-2 - Square's verison of Charlie's Angels.

XII - I actually finally starting playing this game, loving the hunt challenges.

XIII - Got my first trophy then quit until I get a walkthrough.

[Zyphlin]

First let me just say this is not an indictment on FFVII; its my second favorite Final Fantasy. That said I do think Doct is spot on in the golden eye comparison. It gets graded higher than it probably should based on the revolutionary factor of it, the cultural icon it became, and what it represents more than what it is. I felt the story for VII while good was a bit more convoluted then was really necessary, and was not helped by the translation often. The characters ranged from great to completely “meh”, with me having little actual care for the majority of them outside of Cloud, Tifa, and Barrett (of the ones that actually stay the whole time). The rest, be it due to rarely playing them or just not finding them interesting, were average to meaningless to me. Vincent was much like Magus from Chrono Trigger, only without the buildup Magus had. A guy you get, is cool, and you put in the party, but feels like he’s more tacted on than anything else. The game was expansive but at times also seemed almost too daunting due to its sheer magnitude. All that said, this is like saying that a USDA top of the line black angus steak is a little too pink. It’s still an amazing tasting piece of meat that far surpasses most of what you’re going to have out there, but if you’re talking greatness you get a bit more nitpicky. Final Fantasy 7 was a great game.

Now, having said that…

I put it behind VI for my own views. VI is by far my favorite Final Fantasy and the one I’ve replayed the most.

There’s so much about the game that I just absolutely loved and you can’t really start anywhere else with VI other than with the characters. The cast was absolutely amazing. While rather archetypal in many ways, you can actually look back and see that when it comes to RPG’s this game in many ways helped formulate those arch types, especially with regards to RPG’s hitting the American shores. Down the line of characters its difficult for me to find one that I did not enjoy or find interesting in some way. Even the slightly more shallow ones, such as Mog, had qualities…even if it was simply novelty, it was novelty that actually worked…that made them interesting.

Relationship wise it gave you a lot to go off of. Locke’s protective nature towards the females, and the growing affection between him and Celes leading to one of the most artistic and possibly greatest scenes in the SNES’s history. You have the intriguing family ties of Realm, Strago, and Shadow, major portions of which came through Shadow’s dream sequences which themselves were a rather unique thing and something that enhanced the enjoyment of the game. Edgar and Sabin’s brotherly interactions, highlighting so perfectly from early on their personality types and what they’d be willing to do for the other. Cyan’s seeming emotional adoption of Gau after the loss of his family, not to mention his completely non-player character interaction with Lola that added greatly to his character.

Which, again, highlights another thing they did very well in 3 was give almost all the characters some sort of change or growth throughout the storyline. Terra’s loss of spirit and grasping onto normality through adoptive motherhood, only to find a new purpose to actually fight. Locke’s growing ability to move past his former love to realize what’s before him. Celes striking out from the empire and realization of a non-military life, not to mention the excellent World of Ruin beginning with Cid which amazingly for a Nintendo game includes the possibility of a near suicide attempt. Edgar and Sabin could arguably be said to have little character growth, though I also think they had some of the strongest characters early on and most of their growth occurring then. The initial deception of Setzer followed by the realization brought upon him later on of being more than simply a opportunistic selfish scoundrel. And on and on…

I think the large part of why its so easy to enjoy the characters and have attachments of sorts to all is because of how often you’re using them. Its beneficial to the player to switch the party around, and with 5 people in a group its not too difficult to do. You’re placed in so many situations where you have to use people other than who your “mains” are…be it in group fights like the caves under Narshe or the floating isle, separation story arcs such as Gau/Cyan/Sabin, or the entire situation with the World of Ruin where you’re rebuilding your party…that it gets you insight into them you may not have. By doing this not only do you end up seeing story elements of them that drag you in, but you have to learn how to utilize their abilities allowing you to actually begin to appreciate the vast amount of various mechanics go into the game to make each character unique. Slots for Setzer, the different type of magic for Strago, Lockes thieving ability, Celes’s runic absorbtion, Sabin’s street fighter-esque button attacks, etc. They all gave great flavor to the characters.

Which, with all the references to the world of ruin it’d be impossible not to talk about that. It essentially gave us two games in one, package and up until X-2 is the closest to a real final fantasy sequel type scenario you got. Starting as someone OTHER than Terra and attaining group members in a different order gave you interaction and focus on other characters that you may not have used as much before. Meanwhile the events that occurred actually affected every character in some way, making it interesting to find them all and see how it affected each. Not to mention just the basic notion that the bad guy WON…even if it was for a limited time, it was an actual substantial “victory”.

Kefka basically won the first game. And, contrary to what I would’ve imagined if you told me that before, while I was upset that you end up failing to defeat him that first time I was not upset in way that went “Oh bullshit.” It was more disappointment, akin to watching say your football team lose a playoff game…upset, but not doubting its legitimacy. The double cross by Kefka and the placement of him as a truly sinister villain and actually devious mastermind, when the entire early part of he seems almost laughable, was masterfully done. Done so well in fact that rather than going “That makes no sense” due to the seeming absurdity of Kefka early in the game you instead go “you know it kind of makes sense”. It solidified him as easily one of the top villains in any RPG if not video games in general and I’d dare say I enjoy him as a VILLIAN more than Sephiroth, who I personally think gets overrated a bit simply because he’s a “COOL” villain.

Since it’s a wrestling board, the way I could describe it is that Seph would be like the most recent heel Orton or early Heel Stone Cold, who yeah is a bad guy but he’s just so god damn cool that you can’t not cheer for him. Whereas I would see Kefka as more of a heel HHH or Jeff Jarrett (not that Jarretts on the level of any of them). Guys you could argue were better pure “HEELS” because by god they made people HATE them, that even if you respected what they did as a heel you never wanted to CHEER for those guys even if you were a smark.

The story is good I think, perhaps not as epic as VII but at the same time less convoluted, making them roughly equal in regards to my over all enjoyment of the main storyline. The build up from simply an evil emperor to an attempt to rule to an attempt to essentially become god was a nice progression from localized to entire realm altering.

The addition of relics and espers were a welcomed bit of personalization after Final Fantasy II, the music was very well done, the opera scene was amazing, ultros provided one of the better comedy villains on the SNES, every character had unique and interesting abilities, story and character development were top notch.

I just like the game from top to bottom, beginning to end, character to character, and it gives so many options for replayability with the various different interesting and entertaining groups one can put together.

I’m not saying its ahead of VII by miles, I’m not even saying its unquestionably better, but for my money if you sat me down and said “You have one final fantasy to play and that’s the only one you’ll ever get to play”, for me, I’d say III/VI every time.

[Cewsh]

Jeeeeesus.

[Zyphlin]

hahaha....

Sorry :) Work has been busy, but mindless, over the past few days since I suggested someone needed to make this thread.

Which meant I've randomly been thinking about the post while I've been working because its been so mindless, but I haven't been able to type it.

So today I finally had some free time and started typing and typing....

and well, I'm typically WAY to wordy normally and that didn't help the fact.

Yeah um.....::Cough::

FFVI is the best because its got great characters from top to bottom, the best final fantasy villian, the best final fantasy comedy villian, a wide range of unique character abilities, great story and character growth, the closest thing to an actual sequel prior to X-2 built into it, the bad guy actually WINNING, and you can fucking do a haduken in an RPG.

[Atty]

Jeeeeesus.

Yes?

[Bill Casey]

My personal favorites are 7, 6 and Tactics.

I concur with the man in pink...
I voted for VII, but VI and Tactics really were great games as well...

[The Doc]

Seriuosly why is tactics on the list? It's like asking what you're favorite mario game and listing Smash Brothers or Mario Kart.

[Mark Hammer]

It was a tremendous game, definitely good enough to make this list as it's better than all but one or two up there.

[Cewsh]

More like Super Mario RPG, which should count.

[Bill Casey]

It's like asking what you're favorite mario game and listing Smash Brothers or Mario Kart.
...yeah?


Mario Kart is a Mario Game...

[Vice]

Super Mario RPG and Super Mario World are constantly fighting for which is my favorite Mario game, so yeah, Tactics has a place on the list for sure I'd say..

[Cewsh]

Plus, Tactics had an epic story just like any Final Fantasy.

Just on story alone, it's better than all but a handfull.

[Zyphlin]

I'd actually put Tactics as my third favorite. Granted I haven't played X and onward

[Atty]

Tactics would easily make my top three. It was a toss up between 7, 6 and Tactics for my vote here. I went with 7 for the impact it had on the gaming universe and the series itself, but could have easily gone with any of those.


Also, Vincent is amazing. I bet he banged Jailbait. Either that or his sister Jill did.

[JP]

For years and years it was 7 for me, not anymore.

For me 12 is not just an almost perfect game but the single most impressive use of hardware ever implemented.

[Cewsh]

Really?

Please elaborate, amigo. I've never heard anyone so positive towards it.

[JP]

Really?

Please elaborate, amigo. I've never heard anyone so positive towards it.

I've honestly never known a game to have been so masterfully put together.

It has a learning curve that is sheer perfection, I have never, ever experienced a game like it. Eveything it throws at you is in incremental parts which lead to the next progressive area or boss you have to face. At no point are you forced to fight something which is either ridiculously out of your potential or a walkover.

The script and voice acting are without a doubt the pinnacle of any game Square have ever released. From the multi-stranded storyline to the archaic vocabulary of the chracters, every last detail was made to be felt to be realistic and important. One of the depressing points that show this to be the case is the quality of voice acting and script in 13, it is appalling.

The battle system has it's faults (most notably a lack to turn on and off individual Gambits from the battle screen) but the actual fighting mechanism is beauty itself. Unlike any individual RPG before or after it it made you plan out strategic fighting in real time with mass combinations of characters. A Tank, magick user and long-range shooter may work most of the time but there are occassions where it needs to be tweeked.

Final Fanatsy 12 is, without a doubt, one of the best use of hardware, ever. A game that large, that complex, that varied, that good looking, on a fucking PS2 - at a time when the X-Box 360 was coming out with things not even half as good - easily stands aside the like of Panyer Dragoon Zwei and Toy Story as examples of getting the best and more out of a machine.

[Vice]

Well in most cases, a late-end release on one console will look better than an early release on another-- especially the PS2 which had years and years and years of tinkering with every little bit of the hardware to get the absolute most out of it. Whenever a newer, more powerful console comes out, developers don't know how to get the most out of it, so there's a LOT of shit that gets wasted. In a few years, the late-end 360/PS3 games will look better and run smoother than XboxWhatever/PS4 launch games.

XII is definitely an excellent use of hardware because they really did impress the hell out of me with all of it, but saying that it looked better than newer console launch games, while true, doesn't really strengthen your case. ;)

[jesus sucks]

agree.

[Cewsh]

Well honestly 12 lost me when they handed me a game where the battles fought themselves.

That isn't entirely true, but its true enough.

[jesus sucks]

for me i can struggle through a game if i don't like the gameplay too much, im doing that now on Gears of War 2. but in XII it's the only game i've ever played in 19 years of gaming where i didn't understand any of the storyline whatsoever. the words and names were coming out, and just not going in. i could see it was a big epic game full of stuff happening, but i had no clue what. i couldn't name you any characters or towns, the antagonist or the aim of the game, what the plot is etc. everyone and everything seemed pointless or same sounding.

[Motherboy]

Well honestly 12 lost me when they handed me a game where the battles fought themselves.

That isn't entirely true, but its true enough.

Agree. Though it made leveling up easier.

[The_Mike]

for me i can struggle through a game if i don't like the gameplay too much, im doing that now on Gears of War 2. but in XII it's the only game i've ever played in 19 years of gaming where i didn't understand any of the storyline whatsoever. the words and names were coming out, and just not going in. i could see it was a big epic game full of stuff happening, but i had no clue what. i couldn't name you any characters or towns, the antagonist or the aim of the game, what the plot is etc. everyone and everything seemed pointless or same sounding.

This is exactly what happened to me. Maybe it was the painkillers, but I just felt I was assaulted with cutscenes full of random, fantasyesque words I didn't have any reason to care about. Then the characters (aside from Ashe) never really developed between their introduction and the end cinematic, so I didn't care about them either. It felt like a great game engine with a generic story tacked on, just done as a demonstration of what the PS2 could do. Graphically it was very impressive, and I actually enjoyed the battles and tinkering with the gambit system and tracking down marks, but the story, the fantasy, seemed to just be spray painted on rather than built in to the game's core.

[Torn]

I don't think Final Fantasy 12 can be called the single most impressive thing anyone has ever achieved ever on a computer JP.

JS put into words how I felt about it there, didn't get into the story at all. I honestly can't remember any of what happened in it or any of the characters now. The battles were dull too.

I'm not a fan of the new real time battle systems in the newer games, it feels like part of the strategy of them has been taken away in favour of having to rush to get an attack in. I've gone back and played FFX after 12 and 13 and found it a lot more entertaining.

[JP]

I don't think Final Fantasy 12 can be called the single most impressive thing anyone has ever achieved ever on a computer JP.

For me it stands alongside titles such as the aforementioned Toy Story (MD), Panzer Dragoon Zwei (Saturn), Shadow of the Collosus (PS2) Grandia (Saturn), and Super Mario 3 (NES) as an example of near perfection on how to get the most out of what had become seen as limited hardware.

[Cewsh]

Grandia was fucking AMAZING.

Thank christ somebody else remembers it.

[Vice]

For me it stands alongside titles such as the aforementioned Toy Story (MD), Panzer Dragoon Zwei (Saturn), Shadow of the Collosus (PS2) Grandia (Saturn), and Super Mario 3 (NES) as an example of near perfection on how to get the most out of what had become seen as limited hardware.


Shadow of the Colossus?

It is one of my absolute favorite games, and yeah the graphics are impressive considering just how gigantic the colossi are, but it runs at like 10fps throughout most of the fights. Now if it ran perfectly smooth....

[Cewsh]

Yes, but he said best use of the hardware available.

The PS2 wasn't running anything that big any better than it did.

[Vice]

By that logic, they could have gone even bigger and had everything run at 5fps and say "nothing this big runs better", and it'd be very silly.

One of the main points is not to lose frame rate, no matter how big the enemy is or how many enemies are on screen at once, or how many particle effects or polygons or whatever is going on. If it runs slow and choppy as hell, you've gone too big or there's too much crap going on for the console to handle, thus it is not exactly a success.

[Cewsh]

But the game was a success. It was beautiful and played great.

I see what you're saying, but it's possible to get too caught up in the technology sometimes.

[Vice]

but it's possible to get too caught up in the technology sometimes.


..especially when the technology of the game is the topic at hand. :p

[Cewsh]

Yes, but I didn't interpret it as being about the goddamn frame rate. Shadow of the Collosus was a tremendous success in terms of using the engine to create expansive, beautiful and ever shifting environments, and then these enormous enemies all over them with dynamic actions.

It just seems like an odd thing to nitpick at. I didn't even notice it when I played.

[RuneEdge]

How is FF8 getting more love than FF10? :mad:

[Cewsh]

I do love FFX, in all honestly.

The environments and atmosphere of the first half of that game is completely above and beyond what any other game has ever accomplished to me. Just the way everything had a vibrancy to it, is hard to explain. For such a dark story, it was too beautiful not to enjoy looking at. Though I guess that was the theme. This idyllic paradise with a dark secret.

I still listen to the Besaid Island music when i'm chilling out.

8 is still better though. ;)

[Excel]

Final Fantasy X was bollocks

[eldanielfire]

How is FF8 getting more love than FF10? :mad:

I fucking hated FF10. It's 90% running down corridors, it started the flaws which ruin 13. I also hated most of the characters, especially when the main character seems to be fucking Meg Ryan after a minor sex change op. It also took away the world map aspect and thus some of the epic adventure aspect.

[Excel]

And the story made no fucking sense

[jesus sucks]

i fucking hate FFX. Faggy Doodle McFaggot X should be it's new name.

[jesus sucks]

Meg Ryan after a minor sex change op. .

:lol:

phenomenal.

[eldanielfire]

:lol:

phenomenal.



http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:CfO5j3LH77ksAM:http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/ff10-tidus5.jpg&t=1http://www.dailymakeover.com/appImages/galleryImages/all_womens_looks/Meg_Ryan+Apr_25_2009.jpg

[eldanielfire]

Fucking heack, I'm not first person to notice that:

http://media.gamerevolution.com/images/misc/Image/tidus_meg_ryan.jpg

I should add Meg Ryan, despite being called Meg, used to be veyr screwable. Now.....not so much.

[Excel]

Yeah she was delicious once upon a time

[Atty]

I think I'll just call Tidus Meg from now on. Not so much for Meg Ryan, but more because it suddenly hit me that he's Meg from Family Guy.

[Atty]

Because of this thread, I've started playing FF IX again. I remember liking it a good deal, but really nothing about the story. I wrote a newspaper review of it when it was released, but all I can recall is giving it an "A-". Not sure why I remember so little, but it really makes for a fun play. With FF VI, VII, VIII, Tactics and even X, I remember basically everything. When I played through VII again last year, there wasn't really anything that I didn't remember from it. When I played VIII last (four years ago) I remembered most everything. Same when I revisited X and Tactics a few years back.

It's really like playing a fresh game for me. It's aged both better and worse (graphically) than I expected. The fight graphics and cinemas look really good on the PS3, but the general overworld and walking/traveling graphics of towns and characters look pretty poor. I remember loving the towns when I played it before, but that may have had more to do with the unique design than the graphics. I love how different the cities/towns/locations look than VII, VIII, X, XII, XIII, but it's difficult to see certain things on the screen. Namely, various exits from rooms, alleys and such. I ran around in one city trying to find where to go because I couldn't see another exit area that was poorly rendered.


That said, I'm having a ball with it. I'd much rather they go back to this fantasy style than the futuristic style that they seem to love nowadays. Biggest shock so far is how short the first disc was. At around five hours it prompted me to go to the second. I'm sure I skipped over some big optional thing there, but it really seemed short. Especially without a lot of cinema on it.

[Alf]

I'm downloading VIII now to give it another play through...

Someone tell me about Tactics. I'd not really heard of it before this thread. What's different about it? What's good about it?

[Atty]

It's more like chess than a straight forward game. It's a strategy game. Everything you do is on the battle screen. You have A LOT of characters and move them into strategic positions to beat the other side.

[Bill Casey]

If a picture is worth a thousand words, and the game plays at thirty frames a second, then this video is worth thirteen and a half million words...

YouTube- ‪Final Fantasy Tactics Gameplay HQ‬‎

[The_Mike]

I got Tactics on import (they never released it in the UK, for some reason... or probably for no reason) and I enjoy everything about it except, sadly, the gameplay. The primary problem is I suck, but it really isn't much fun just doing battle after battle, waiting for a dozen characters to get through their moves every turn, and losing very frequently later on. I just couldn't be bothered with it, which is a shame because I wanted to see how the story turned out.

[jesus sucks]

the translation in Tactics was also horrible. there was a certain charm about the dodgy translation in FF7, it added alot of dramatic-ness to the dialogue. made even Tifa and Aeris' lines often sound fucking epic. but since Tactics had more of a ye-olde style, it became tricky. i hear the PSP version from a couple of years ago had an entire new and vastly improved text.

no surprise to see VII topping the poll here too. i still see it as a flawless computer game. in the NTSC version anyway.

[Alf]

What's different about the NTSC version?

Tactics looks interesting. It reminds me a bit of UFO... like the way you move your guys etc etc.

Is there a lot of talking/exploring too or is it just battle to battle?

[Cewsh]

Plenty of talking and story, but almost no exploring.

The entire game unfolds in battles.

[jesus sucks]

What's different about the NTSC version?


not to rehash my own posts from earlier but basically the PAL versions of all Squaresoft games were hatchet jobs with 20% slower gameplay and massive borders on the top and bottom of the screen.

[The Rogerer]

They retranslated Tactics for the PSP and added some redone cutscenes. I think they're releasing the PS version on PSN, I wonder if it'll be back to the dodgy translation.

I was a bit fan of Tactics Advance on the GBA when I was travelling every day, it streamlined the game in a good way. Tactics was very desirable at the time of release because it was US only, but looking back on it now it's a fairly clunky and unforgiving system, it's filled with mental classes that you an feel punished for experimenting with. It's a serious commitment.

[Alf]

not to rehash my own posts from earlier but basically the PAL versions of all Squaresoft games were hatchet jobs with 20% slower gameplay and massive borders on the top and bottom of the screen.

I don't remember my version of FFVII having borders...

Also, according to this, if anything they added content to the US version...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197341-final-fantasy-vii/faqs/3890

And how/why would they have a game run 20% slower? Can you link me to anything, I'm pretty interested.

[The Rogerer]

I think it's about 17% slower. With the difference between PAL and NTSC televisions, you needed to do decent conversion to adjust for the different resolution (480 vs 576) and refresh rates (50Hz vs 60Hz). If the developer didn't do their job right (and a lot of them didn't), the PAL version would have a squashed screen with borders and everyone looking fat, and run 17% slower. I think this was still happening up until FF12.

[jesus sucks]

http://ntsc-uk.domino.org/showthread.php?t=76699

the PAL version ran approx 20% slower and with massive borders. i owned it myself for over ten years, up until when i sold it. still have my black label ntsc of course, which i picked up off ebay in 2000. as well as the psn DL off the yank store.

it's a 50htz european screen resolution problem that developers used to have. square's games were known to be the worst localisations. the borders were even bigger than normal. that's why there was a loads that imported or had CD-Rs of the ntsc versions. all my ps1, ps2 and nintendo snes/GC/wii games are ntsc. obviously i was a PAL gamer at first back in the 90s, but over the years thanks to ebay and the internet stores you can sell the shit pal versions and replace them with ntsc. ps3 and 360 are awesome as HD has replaced all the old formats.

Rogerer, i have FF tactics on download from psn. as with the rest of the classics selection it's the straight rip of the PS1 release so it's the old translation. that game never came out in europe though, there isn't a pal version on the PS1. imo can't ever see that coming out on the euro store tbh. has this been officially announced? they totally redid the game for the PSP and was the first pal release of the game. and is meant to be brilliant. i would have picked up a psp for it if i'd have been a bigger Tactics fan. i like it, but never really liked it as much as other people.

[Torn]

As you've said PAL means the TVs are 50Hz so they can display 50fps max, so obviously it's going to be around 20% slower than running it at 60fps on a 60Hz TV.

[Alf]

Erm, that's not exactly how it works lads... I think you're getting a bit bogged down in the numbers there. The video output has little to do with the actual speed of the actual game. If a game is running properly (i.e a consistant frame rate) then you wouldn't notice the difference between 24 fps and 29.9 fps.

That's like saying people watching Inception in NTSC will be finished before those watch the PAL version.

[jesus sucks]

i provided you a link to one thread with people discussing it, i could google it and provide tens of thousands more.

approx 20% slower, 50htz instead of 60, borders.

[The Rogerer]

Yeah we're completely making it up.

There were issues with DVDs but that's a different matter. It's absolutely the case with games. Companies like Nintendo did the conversion properly, but a lot didn't.

This was a massive issue for gamers since the 90s, and it's only cleared up in the current generation.

Look, Alf.

YouTube- Final Fantasy X - Ntsc vs Pal

Incidently, this is a problem with TV shows and always has been. Still happening. My Season 1 and 3 DVDs of 30 Rock play fine, but for some reason Season 2 has been converted wrong and everything is noticably slower, everyone is talking in slo-mo etc. Or maybe I'm getting too "bogged down in the numbers".

It doesn't always happen, it only happens when the conversion isn't handled right, and some companies were really bad for it.

[jesus sucks]

"Squaresoft is the most notorious company regarding PAL conversions. They took ages to bring over, and were always poorly converted. Much like Capcom during the 32-bit days. Huge borders, massive slowdown."

[Alf]

Fucking hell you two. Calm down. I've never known two people get so fucking narky over nothing. It's obviously something you are deeply passionate about.

[The Rogerer]

Focus on the harsh tone rather than the fact you just got schooled. No wonder I'm not a top-tier rajah poster, but never the less you should probably know I wasn't really angry, but you set the aggressive tone with the condescending language in your post so I responded in kind.

Now you know something you didn't about video conversion (although you've refrained from admitting that), and I've been educated a bit on how to act like the rajah elite. Now that Mik's back this school of disagreement is all over the place again.

[jesus sucks]

since i'm not into films or anything, i suppose this is the equivilent of saying a VHS of Star Wars 1 is better than a Limited Edition Blu Ray of Star Wars Return of the Jedi signed by george lucas to some massive movie-head. it's a pretty big deal if you're into your RPGs and games like i am.

[Alf]

Focus on the harsh tone rather than the fact you just got schooled. No wonder I'm not a top-tier rajah poster, but never the less you should probably know I wasn't really angry, but you set the aggressive tone with the condescending language in your post so I responded in kind.

Now you know something you didn't about video conversion (although you've refrained from admitting that), and I've been educated a bit on how to act like the rajah elite. Now that Mik's back this school of disagreement is all over the place again.

What the fuck are you talking about with this rajah elite bullshit?

If you read condescension in my post then that's on you. I've noticed you tend to bite peoples heads off with little reason, so I think you are pre-disposed to being offended.

[Alf]

And in response to your positive rep there Rog... I am interested. Hence why I asked the question. I didn't expect you two to lose your shit over it though.

[The Rogerer]

What do you call starting a post with "Erm" then. Unless you're dictating or have typing tourettes.

Also I don't know how I've jumped down your throat. We talked about the issue. You expressed interest. We explained it to you, and then you decided to say "No, you all appear to be talking bollocks". This is annoying. I post a link with video evidence and explain it further. You then post ridiculing us. You may have been interested but you didn't pass up the chance to act like a dick. You still haven't acknowledged that we took the time to educate you about something despite you dismissing us in the middle of it.

I bring up the Rajah elite bullshit because you're trying to turn this on us when you're acting like an arsehole, and this is what happens every time one of you lot tangle with the little people.

[jesus sucks]

Also, according to this, if anything they added content to the US version...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197341-final-fantasy-vii/faqs/3890



just to back up to this point. you're getting mixed up with subject matter. ff7 original version vs ff7 international version isn't the same as the pal/ntsc conversion differences. for a start america runs on ntsc not pal.

game out in japan first, came out in america later that year and also europe with extra stuff like Ruby Weapon. then as it was so much better than the initial game, that version came out in japan called ff7 international.

[Alf]

just to back up to this point. you're getting mixed up with subject matter. ff7 original version vs ff7 international version isn't the same as the pal/ntsc conversion differences. for a start america runs on ntsc not pal.

game out in japan first, came out in america later that year and also europe with extra stuff like Ruby Weapon. then as it was so much better than the initial game, that version came out in japan called ff7 international.

My response was about you saying they do a hatchet job on it. I thought you were sayign they cut features.

Again, I'm genuinely interested in this stuff. I didn't realise they add/cut stuff.

[Alf]

What do you call starting a post with "Erm" then. Unless you're dictating or have typing tourettes.

Also I don't know how I've jumped down your throat. We talked about the issue. You expressed interest. We explained it to you, and then you decided to say "No, you all appear to be talking bollocks". This is annoying. I post a link with video evidence and explain it further. You then post ridiculing us. You may have been interested but you didn't pass up the chance to act like a dick. You still haven't acknowledged that we took the time to educate you about something despite you dismissing us in the middle of it.

I bring up the Rajah elite bullshit because you're trying to turn this on us when you're acting like an arsehole, and this is what happens every time one of you lot tangle with the little people.

I think we've got some serious crossed wires here mate. It's like I'm having a completely different conversation to the one you are having.

[Mark Hammer]

no surprise to see VII topping the poll here too.

Me neither. Tremendously over-rated game, has been since its release 13 years ago.

Nice to see Tactics getting a little bit of love in this thread, I was thinking it was an aquired taste. Wonderful game that was, played it through beginning to end at least 10 times.

[Torn]

I'm a huge fan of Tactics :yes:

[jesus sucks]

My response was about you saying they do a hatchet job on it. I thought you were sayign they cut features.

Again, I'm genuinely interested in this stuff. I didn't realise they add/cut stuff.

yeah, it was more common back then. there were often some differences. one thing you could be sure of was that the game would almost certainly never see the light of day in Europe, and if it did, it would be 20% slower and have borders squashing all the gameplay.

there was a famous edit in FF6, the japanese version had a big naked arse in the game on the Esper Siren (i think). and nintendo america were really angry and cut the arse out of the american release. this game of course never came out here until about 2002, on the ps1.

i don't mind explaining this shit. squaresoft are fucking boss like.

also i get an excuse to post a photo of FF7 international, which was a sexy cover.

http://www.ffmusic.info/images/ff7intl_psone.jpg

[Atty]

I still have my black label of Tactics. Can't bring myself to sell it for $50 when it was going for $120 in 2001-whenever they popped out the greatest hits version.

May sell it though, as I find myself downloading ps1 games to the ps3 now to play them.

[Mark Hammer]

Bringing back memories. I remember after playing it through a few times I'd try not to use Orlandu when I got him because he was just so ridiculously awesome it was unfair. He made battles way too easy. Even killed him off right away one time so I wouldn't be tempted to use him.

[jesus sucks]

i've only ever sold 1 of my black label ps1 RPGs, chrono cross. just as it was so shit. our platinum editions looked pretty bad, but they had nothing on your neon green labels. the platinum PS3 games are actually better than the black labels now. they have a yellow label, and a silver non see-through case which looks much better and more eye catching than the normal clear cases.

[The Rogerer]

The PS1 platinum ones are fine, as it just changes the black to grey. The PS2 ones aren't great but I'm used to them, but now I got Uncharted 2 back and it's a platinum, they've just made it silver and bright yellow and I don't want to be anal about my collection but everytime I look at it I think "Man, that's ugly". The Final Fantasy Tactics I had was the Greatest Hits version, which looked alright but I thought it was weird having it in a normal CD case.

My first Square game was Secret of Mana. It seemed a miracle that it made it out to the UK and one of my local shops. I bought Super Play magazine at the time and it would do lots of coverage on FF6, and a little bit on Secret of Mana and I was really intrigued. Secret of Mana was then my first proper RPG and I always look back on it fondly - I did a playthrough there a few weeks ago and still enjoyed it a lot.

I eventually got FF6 on SNES emulators and PS1, but I never got around to finishing it. I've heard the second half is rather dark and good, is that true?

[Mark Hammer]

YES

Post-floating continent is when the game really gets good. You're cheating yourself by not playing all the way through. :yes:

[Atty]

i've only ever sold 1 of my black label ps1 RPGs, chrono cross. just as it was so shit.

I will not hear unkind words on Chrono Cross!

[One Man Gang]

My top 5

1) Final Fantasy VI
2) Final Fantasy VII
3) Final Fantasy IX
4) Final Fantasy IV
5) Final Fantasy VIII

[13th Step]

Its hard for me to vote for which I feel is the best. I love this series so much. I absolutely loved II, III, VII and X. IX was fun because it was a throwback to older FF's. I also liked the latest one, XIII. I have to say the only ones I didnt care for were VIII and XII. I never played X-2 but from what I have been told from those who played it was I didnt miss anything.

[Atty]

More thoughts on replaying IX:

First, I take back everything I said about the uneven aging of the graphics. The PS3 was stretching it out to fill out the widescreen display and after adjusting that it looks glorious. Really, really loved IX this time through. Forgot how great it was and got really wrapped up in it. I skipped a bunch of stuff and just did the straight story. The game locks out a bunch of locations in disc four and I enjoyed it enough that I started another playthrough right away as I only had one save by the time I noticed locations blocked off. This time I'm doing everything, leveling up chocobos and all right away. I actually managed to kill a couple of the Grand Dragons (a later game enemy that you can fight on disc one) on the first disc. They're rated as level 60 and it lifted me from level 10 to 19 in one battle.

Really fun game. I'd say it's in my top three, but I need to play Tactics again. Once 9 gets rolling, it's really good. Kuja might be the best non Kefka villain in the series. Sure, Sephiroth is loads cooler, but as a pure vile bastard of a villain, I'd put those two ahead. Sephiroth is just too darn lovable and bad ass.

[jesus sucks]

been wondering for a few years now, is replaying RPGs and lengthy adventure games multiple times an american thing? i love games, but i rarely, basically never, replay one with the exception of the odd final fantasy or zelda ocarina, which i did through twice at release then 2 years later. obviously played through ff7 a few times full as it's my favourite storyline of all time, and about 20 times through Midgar. replayed mgs4 a few times as had no other games. one or two others i guess. that's about it really. obviously i played through stuff like starfox 100 times when i was a kid, and mario. but they are fairly short games especially once you know the warp zones n stuff. even Xenogears another of my best games, i only ever played through the once. i've seen the story, what's the point?

i downloaded FF9 too last month and i've put in about 10 hours and may go back to finish it again as it's been 10 years since i did it. but just seen you say you played through FF9, then immediately start a new game. personally i don't know anyone that does that sort of thing, but i see alot of americans online talk about replay value as the major selling point of a game. maybe this is an major difference between the countries. for me, and all my friends it's actually the last thing we look for in a game. once i've beat it i know the story. i've seen all the good bits. so i move onto another game. even Chrono Trigger i only played through once, and that had 15 different endings to discover. i just did Demon's Souls, another game clearly designed for numerous playthroughs but i don't see the point playing it for another 40 hours when i know the story, i know the bosses, i got most of the best items in my general play as i'm naturally an explorer and grinder in RPGs. surely it's better to invest that time into another game?

again not saying it's bad, just thinking i have discovered a cultural difference between UK and USA :D

[Vice]

I think that's actually a really good topic for a thread, JS. Maybe not so much US/UK, but replay value in general. Any interest in making it? If not, I think I will.

[The Rogerer]

JS is right, and I worked like that until recently. I used to never play anything more than once, hardly. Even games I loved - with FF7 I was obsessed with that game and when I eventually got my hands on it, I just poured everything into this one play levelling everyone up to 99, and seeing everything. I did eventually replay it, but several years later. Metal Gear Solid would be the first game that I started to replay, and I replayed it a lot, but anything else, no. It was far more important to me that I got rid of something and got trying a game that I'd never played before. It's only this generation that I've discovered the joy of replays. In the lead up to getting married, I decided to get all the achievements on Bioshock, so I played it twice back to back, looking for all the audio logs and doing it on hard, and by the end of it I thought it was a better game. I then wanted to get all the Dead Space trophies later, but I'd got rid of the PS3 and already done it twice on 360, so I ended up finishing it a further 3 times on PS3. Now I'm just finishing off Uncharted 2 for the third time, and I'd say with everything I've replayed, I end up liking it more each time. I'm constantly chasing new games, and yet I know if I replayed what I had I'd be a lot happier.

Final Fantasy wise, it's funny, I was more inclined to retry them than other games but it didn't work out well:

FF6 - Played half way through about three times, never finished
FF7 - Finished three times, countlesss false starts
FF8 - Finished once, got to disk 3 once, couple of getting to end of disk 1]
FF9 - Finished once, got to disk 3 twice]
FF10 - Almost finished, then restarted and finished.
FF12 - Three quarters through, gave up, came back and got just over three quarters through
FF13 - Got three quarters through and gave up
FFT: Finished once, One play half way
FFTA: Finished once.
Crisis Core: Finished once.
Little bit of a trend there...

[jesus sucks]

I think that's actually a really good topic for a thread, JS. Maybe not so much US/UK, but replay value in general. Any interest in making it? If not, I think I will.

go for it man, i'm not a big thread starter these days. just say something like "js made a post about replaying RPGs" or something to use as the excuse for the thread :yes:

my FF tally goes like this

FF4 started but gave up after an hour. just too old looking to play now. looks like a NES game.
FF5 started but gave up after 10 hours. still own on my FF anthology import.
FF6 Completed once, 1 false start.
FF7 Completed several times to 100% tbh, at least 20 runs through midgar and various bits of disc 1.
FF8 completed once to 100%, and 1 run through to middle of disc 2 in 2003 and i still may go back to it oneday.
FF9 completed once, started a new game on download. pending. may play it today.
FF10 got up to the end boss, needed to level up but hated the game, sold it years ago. still have the save file just incase, but i know i will never buy the game again.
FF11 didn't play, will be buying and caning 14 though.
FF12 15 hours in. one of the reasons i've just picked up a new slim PS2 is to attempt this again, even though i didn't like it from what i played.
FF13 Platinum Trophy, 145 hours, really enjoyed the gameplay.

[Alf]

The only one I haven't finished is 9. For some reason I found the last boss impossible to beat.

[13th Step]

I always thought that Kefka was the best villain of the series. Sure Sephiroth was awesome but Kafka was a psychopath and sort of had his plan succeed. Remember in the middle of the game the world was destroyed and didn't he attain god status?

[Atty]

The thing with Sephiroth, and keep in mind I LOVE Sephiroth, is just that. People love him. He's much more likable than the likes of Kefka, Kuja or that witch from Tactics. A hated villain is more effective than a cool one that people love. Sephiroth is probably my favorite character in the FF series but I want a bastard that I want to wreck in a villain/heel.


I'm trying to figure out how I never replayed 9 until now. The only thing I can think of is that it was in the era of Chrono Cross, Vagrant Story and a number of other great RPGs and X came less than a year later. X sucked up my life for awhile as it was so massive and I'm one of those OCD people that have to do every last thing in the damn game.

[The_Mike]

I disagree that a bastard villain of pure evilness is better than one we can at least like in some manner. I've always felt that a villain has a bit more impact if you can identify with them, rather than them being a pure sociopath intent on destroying everything for no apparent reason. Sephiroth is a hero to the main character and turns into a maniac because of various revelations about things that happened to him that weren't really his fault, and I felt his story was so much more compelling than Kefka's or Kuja's (though I don't really remember much about Kuja's motivations, I'll have to play IX again). It's an emotional journey and I enjoy feeling more than just hate for the villain. Then again, I always did identify with the villain in TV and movies - when I was young, I wanted the Empire to win.

Still, Vader is badass and cool but not nearly as raw evil as Tarkin or the Emperor, yet who was the icon of the original Trilogy? I think a lot of people like to identify with the villain to some extent.

[13th Step]

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I too always rooted for the bad villains in TV and movies when I was young. But I always liked Vader and the Emperor equally. And yes, every Star Wars game I played where I could be the Empire, I was the Empire. I guess my issue was always the villains plans rarely ever come to fruition. That is what made Kefka so unique. Like I said, mid way thru the game the world is destroyed because of him and he becomes god like.

I dont want to come off where I'm anti-Sephiroth. He was cool as shit! I just liked seeing a villain win so to speak. Yes the heroes overcome Kefka in the end...but of course they do. Hey, Empire Strikes Back was my favorite of the original triliogy.

[Atty]

(though I don't really remember much about Kuja's motivations, I'll have to play IX again).

I had totally forgotten the Kuja/Zidane story before replaying, but it's basically this: There are the two worlds of Terra and Gaia in different dimensions. Kuja was made by this evil dude named Garland and sent to Gaia to prepare his plan to wipe out it's citizens so he could turn it into another Terra. Zidane was made as almost identical to Kuja and was to be he replacement when Garland found fit. Zidane lived among the people, made friends and never knew what he was so he didn't want to kill everyone. Kuja made his own army (much like how he and Zidane were made) on Gaia to invade his homeworld and take over Garland's role and gain his power. When Garland reveals that Kuja is going to expire/die fairly soon, he goes nuts, gets stuck in a limit break phase and destroys everything on Terra and sets to do the same on Gaia.

I had forgotten everything about the story and had fun reliving that. And keep in mind, I like Sephiroth more, but more enjoy beating the crap out of the vile bastards. I keep trying to find a way for Sephiroth to kill Cloud in the final fight... :D

[Cewsh]

The last act of IX is so incredibly mental and such an insane departure from the entire rest of the game that i've only been able to get through it all once.

[jesus sucks]

remember the sidequest to get Excalibur in FF9? get to the final dungeon in 12 hours, in the days before trophies and achievements like, but surely that must be one of the hardest gaming tasks of all time. apparently the only way of doing it was by opening the PS1 lid and skipping every cut scene in the game, also being brilliant at the game to beat enemies with no levelling up or shopping for items at all.

[The Rogerer]

Also it was noted as being a lot harder in the PAL version due to the game slowing down but the clock still running in realtime :)

I remember buying the FF9 strategy guide and it had this experiment where for all the juicy info you were meant to use a special code to log into Playonline to complete some of the tables. Madness.

[Atty]

YouTube- Kuja's hips don't lie
:lol:



The last act of IX is so incredibly mental and such an insane departure from the entire rest of the game that i've only been able to get through it all once.

You mean VIII, right? ;)

remember the sidequest to get Excalibur in FF9? get to the final dungeon in 12 hours, in the days before trophies and achievements like, but surely that must be one of the hardest gaming tasks of all time. apparently the only way of doing it was by opening the PS1 lid and skipping every cut scene in the game, also being brilliant at the game to beat enemies with no levelling up or shopping for items at all.

Yep. Excalibur II. It's impossible now if you go through on anything but an old PS1, as you're forced to watch the cut-scenes.

You do level up, though. I used this trick to get early levels on my recent playthrough, but you get Quina (the giant he-she thing) on the first disc and eat this one enemy. She then learns "Limit Glove." You go to Grimatzke's Groto and kill Quina. Run to the back where the mogs are and save. You then give her a phoenix down and soft reset until it restores her to just 1 hp. When you get that (as it will take a few tries) you save again. Run up the vines and you'll be able to fight the Grand Dragons (later enemies rated at level 60.) When he-she's at 1 hp, limit glove does 9999 damage to the dragon. After that you can eat the dragon to kill it in two moves while frantically resurrecting everyone. At the end, if everyone's alive, you get 8000 exp (if someone's dead you get more.) That jumped me from level 10 to 20 in the first fight and then 1-2 levels per fight after that up to 30 or so. You can save immediately after the dragon battles as you're on the world map and can add 20-30 in 4-5 minutes of game time.

That's about the biggest secret to the speed run as you will be getting one hit kills on the enemies for quite a while after that.

[Cewsh]

You mean VIII, right? ;)

Nope, because the whole game builds and leads step by step to the relentless insanity towards the end. Same with 7 and 10.

With 9 you have one game, which just fucking randomly becomes something so incredibly different that it makes everything that happened over the course of the entire game literally not matter at all.

[Atty]

The end of VIII ruined all replay for me. I tried replaying it and specifically didn't do any of the last disc because it was such a diversion and turn off the first time. You go to the future and there's no place left on the planet but the final castle? Ugh.

I loved the end of IX as it was the plan: turning Gaia into another world. Fit the story perfectly.

[Cewsh]

All of the plots fit all of the stories perfectly, or near enough, but the one for IX really just seemed almost like a cheap shot. The transition from (let's battle monsters in this giant mist creating tree" to "i'm an alien from outer space, here let me fight my space brother so I can save my species of brain dead clones and make our sort of dad happy" was incredibly abrupt, and in doing it, the story really left every character but Zidane behind.

None of the rest of the party is in any way neccesary to the plot once they go into space. It's just really awkward.

And the Time Compression is the same as the North Cave in 7 or the final bit in tons of games, once you commit, you're in it for the haul.

[Vice]

You can leave the North Cave.

[Cewsh]

Yes, I know, but not easily. You can also do more than just the final boss in Time Compression.

[Excel]

You know what I disliked with all the games starting with 8? The way that everything, from the decor to the costumes was so over-elaborately designed. everything. It seemed that everything was covered in swirls and patterns and other indulgent crap. I dont know how to describe it, but lets see if I can find some examples....

Nope.

But what I mean is say, the rings around the Gardens in 8. The incredibly intricate designs of the costumes in X. There are many more examples. Edeas stupid bullshit she wears.

I wouldnt mind if it served to highlight a particular area, or a palace, or something. But from 8 onwards it seemed as though almost everything in the game world was an excersise in showing off how detailed the designers could draw shit. Like nothing in the game world was designed to be practical, just all pretty and shit.

I liken it to the difference between the star wars movies. In the OT, things looked natural, as if they were designed by some character in the universe, and they were lived in. Then in the PT everything looked like it had been designed by some twat sitting at his computer building shit in CG and sucking his own dick at how detailed and fancy he could make it look, whether or not it made sense.

Thats what i liked about FF7. There are some strange designs here and there, but for the most part, everything looks like it belongs to that world, and not to some Japanese Game Artists portfolio.

[Cewsh]

I guarantee you, though, that if they had been capable or more detail, they would have used it.

Hence them changing everyone's outfit and style with the Advent Children reboot.

[Excel]

They were capable of more detail, we're talking about prerendered stuff really. Its not so much detail thats the problem for me, just the elaborate "lets see how pretty we can make everything look" design. I wish I could find some good examples because its really not coming across in my description.

Even in advent children, while yes there was a bit of what im talking about, they do provide much mroe detail or course but everything still looks like FF7. People arent wearing ridiculously impractical costumes.

Infact the only part of that film I can think seems to have been influenced by the style of the later games is Bahamuts wings, and Im fine with that, because it is one instance with one fuck off magnificant monster.

[The Rogerer]

They've moved in this direction that is essentially tat overkill. Just detail, detail, detail without thought or scale or considering how it flows. It's designed to be cosplayed.

[13th Step]

I thought everything worked as far as XIII. I didn't find the world or clothes overboard.

[Atty]

All of the plots fit all of the stories perfectly, or near enough, but the one for IX really just seemed almost like a cheap shot. The transition from (let's battle monsters in this giant mist creating tree" to "i'm an alien from outer space, here let me fight my space brother so I can save my species of brain dead clones and make our sort of dad happy" was incredibly abrupt, and in doing it, the story really left every character but Zidane behind.

None of the rest of the party is in any way neccesary to the plot once they go into space. It's just really awkward.

And the Time Compression is the same as the North Cave in 7 or the final bit in tons of games, once you commit, you're in it for the haul.


The entire Vivi story is to parallel the Zidane story before that's introduced. Kuja creates an army of clones in much the same way that Garland created Zidane and Kuja.

And as OMG said, you can get out of the North Cave very easily in VII. I've never had a runthrough (and for VII I've lost count of how many times I've beaten it) where I didn't leave the North Cave after going down to the bottom of it. Go down to the bottom, get items, level up on the pots, make a save point at the base and then go back to the top to tie up loose ends on the world map.

[One Man Gang]

Vice actually said that. But I agree, you can depart the North Cave well enough.


Also I agree about Vivi's story being parallel to Zidane. In fact you have a lot of that going around in FFIX with stories paralleling or characters having equals.

[Atty]

Oh right. All the Mega Man avys are mixing people up for me. :lol:

And, yeah. They're building up the clone story the entire game. It's not some huge curve that they're just busting out at the last minute. If Cewsh wants to argue the end of 8 making perfect sense because they were "building to it the whole game", he's got to acknowledge the same for 9. In effect, he's arguing for one game and against another for the same reason.

[Badger]

The only thing I didn't like about IX was the bait-and-switch of villains at the last minute, Kuja is built as the main villain the whole time and then this Necron guys appears out of nowhere. Same thing happened with IV with Golbez and Zemus/Zeromus. They do the same thing with Edna/Ultimecia but at least it's not quite so last minute. Also Edna was much hotter as a possessed villain than a goody.

Otherwise IX is a fine game in my book. I like how IX is essentially an amalgation and tribute to other FF games.

[One Man Gang]

Well the bait and switch was a tribute to past FF games.

[Badger]

I'm aware of that, but it's still my pet vice (pun intended).

[Atty]

They do that in most of the games. They also did it in X and Yu Yevon.

[Badger]

True, and that battle was so pointless. It's like Russo booked some of the endings but itt's worse in 9 because it literally is right at the last minute. Least there's a little bit of warning in other FFs. I can't comment on 2 or 3 becuase I only got halfway through 2 then got bored and I've never played 3.

That's why 6 and 7 are my two favourite games, you know who you're up against and there's added satisfaction in defeating

[One Man Gang]

But you still get that with 9. They just toss in an extra battle for the challenge. Plus I'm sure it gets difficult making the villain who you encounter multiple times across the game that much more challenging at the end. There's only so many times you can morph the final villain into an angel, monster, or give them some new power that they didn't have earlier in the game.

[Atty]

Exactly. And, throughout the whole game, they were highlighting the question of whether Vivi, Zidane and Kuja were just puppets that it makes sense that there'd be another force playing a hand in manipulating the characters.

[Cewsh]

And, yeah. They're building up the clone story the entire game. It's not some huge curve that they're just busting out at the last minute. If Cewsh wants to argue the end of 8 making perfect sense because they were "building to it the whole game", he's got to acknowledge the same for 9. In effect, he's arguing for one game and against another for the same reason.

I don't think you actually are getting what I have against IX.

In 8 every disc is about a witch who is possesed until you progress to the one possesing them. In IX then entire shit is about helping Dagger retrieve her Kingdom and stop her crazy mom and maybe Kuja too whoever he is, and then in the final act you fight Death and save Kuja, who is your space brother clone guy.

That doesn't seem like a stretch to you? I'm not bashing it, I was just suggesting that it turns me off the game.

You're going way more in depth with how things mirror and suggest other things, and that's fine because I could play that game too, but that's irrelevent because it isn't what I was talking about. However relevent the other characters are UP UNTIL Bran Bal, they're all dead weight afterwards.

[Atty]

I don't think you actually are getting what I have against IX.

In 8 every disc is about a witch who is possesed until you progress to the one possesing them. In IX then entire shit is about helping Dagger retrieve her Kingdom and stop her crazy mom and maybe Kuja too whoever he is, and then in the final act you fight Death and save Kuja, who is your space brother clone guy.

That doesn't seem like a stretch to you? I'm not bashing it, I was just suggesting that it turns me off the game.

You're going way more in depth with how things mirror and suggest other things, and that's fine because I could play that game too, but that's irrelevent because it isn't what I was talking about. However relevent the other characters are UP UNTIL Bran Bal, they're all dead weight afterwards.

It absolutely seems like a stretch to me. Especially as the game was apparently about stopping Dagger's "crazy mom" until disc four, seeing as Kuja kills her on disc two.

And seriously, the entire game is about stopping death. Kuja goes crazy not wanting to die. The Black Mages serve Kuja's will under the false claim that he will keep them from expiring. Dagger has to watch her second mom die, unable to do anything. It's all about fighting death on every single disc. They even have preachers saying that the future "lays in the stars" early in the game.

[Cewsh]

I said the final act, not the final disc.

I'm glad you like and find deep meaning in the game, and i'm glad that the last act didn't jar you out of enjoying the game. I wish I could say the same.

[One Man Gang]

My issue with IX is just how absolutely miserable and confusing the last act was. You play this great, witty old school adventure for 40 hours, and then they just totally change the rules and the tone on you 100%.

It just makes it hard to even want to play the last disc.


Last act, last disc, final act, final disc....


The clones and Bran Bal are the explanation for a series of things that occurred over the course of the game starting with the eye popping out of the sky and destroying a city without explanation. Its the pay off to that storyline. They lay the groundwork for it throughout the game with Kuja, Vivi, history lessons etc. By the time the Queen dies at the end of the second disc, she was clearly not the main problem for the heroes but the guy advising her. When Garland shows up at the start of disc 3, the pay off for the eye and such begins. When Garland dies and they head back to Gaia, the final act begins and its to destroy Kuja. Its not confusing to me.

[Cewsh]

Last act, last disc, final act, final disc....

The story of Disc 3 makes me not want to play disc 4.


The clones and Bran Bal are the explanation for a series of things that occurred over the course of the game starting with the eye popping out of the sky and destroying a city without explanation. Its the pay off to that storyline. They lay the groundwork for it throughout the game with Kuja, Vivi, history lessons etc. By the time the Queen dies at the end of the second disc, she was clearly not the main problem for the heroes but the guy advising her. When Garland shows up at the start of disc 3, the pay off for the eye and such begins. When Garland dies and they head back to Gaia, the final act begins and its to destroy Kuja. Its not confusing to me.

It isn't confusing to me either. Again, I just didn't like the direction it took, and found it to be jarring.

Look, this is really getting annoyingly circular. Can we just accept that I didn't like the last act of IX and move on?

[The_Mike]

I'm with Cewsh on this one - Final Fantasy IX really seemed to change flavour for me in the final act. I think he hits the nail on the head by saying that the characters outside of Zidane and Kuja are deadweight and really have nothing to do with the culmination, and nothing you guys are saying is really countering that. Vivi being a clone of sorts himself is about as close as we get to tying the rest of the cast to the endgame. I think it's fair to argue it is a radical departure from the rest of the game that pulls the rug out from under us and abandons much of what was making the rest of the game what it was. Fair enough if you still enjoyed it, but I really felt it was a jarring shift of gears and quite unlike VIIIs' deliberately circuitous plot.

[One Man Gang]

So its not that they gave one of the main characters a personal connection to the main villain, but that they did it on disc 3 and not on disc 1. Because had they done it on disc 1 then the other characters wouldn't have been dead weight, right? Because the Queen would still be after Dagger and Vivi would still be wondering who he is etc

Yet after they give Zidane the personal connection to Kuja, there isn't much else to do but kill Kuja. Thus why The others go with because Kuja is threatening to kill them all.

I just do not understand "deadweight." Its the end of the game. They help give Zidane the strength to fight on and Dagger certainly becomes something for him to live for.

[Atty]

I have to ask, Mike, when's the last time you played 9?

If you didn't care for it, that's fine, but they do set up everything and it follows a design throughout the game and there are MANY hints at what's to come that you don't notice on the first playthrough (I didn't) as you're not looking for them.

The outline that OMG it highlights a similar structure to the one Cewsh highlighted as a reason why he liked 8 and felt it worked—that each disc progresses until you are revealed to the higher up baddie. In 9, it's using the concept of the characters as all being puppets. Bhrane is presented as the puppet master for the mages for all of disc one and Kuja is introduced at the end of that disc as the one manipulating her. Kuja kills her at the end of 2 and Garland is introduced as Kuja's puppet master at the start of disc 3. Kuja manipulates Zidane into getting rid of Garland at the end of disc 3 and Memoria is introduced for the start of disc 4. It's a very similar structure in that regard and I don't think a particularly complicated game at all as long as you don't just click X without reading what's being said.

I can totally see not liking it if you played it once and found it too jarring, but that's the same as how I feel about 8. I would get into my feelings on 8, but I feel that would just bring on a huge debate with Cewsh that I don't feel like having. We all have our tastes and the futuristic tone of 8 was very offputting to me, I didn't care for the story at all and it probably wouldn't make my top ten FF properties/games, but can see how it would have appealed to others.

[Atty]

So its not that they gave one of the main characters a personal connection to the main villain, but that they did it on disc 3 and not on disc 1. Because had they done it on disc 1 then the other characters wouldn't have been dead weight, right? Because the Queen would still be after Dagger and Vivi would still be wondering who he is etc

Yet after they give Zidane the personal connection to Kuja, there isn't much else to do but kill Kuja. Thus why The others go with because Kuja is threatening to kill them all.

I just do not understand "deadweight." Its the end of the game. They help give Zidane the strength to fight on and Dagger certainly becomes something for him to live for.

Exactly. They all save Zidane from himself in Bren Bai/Pandemonium at the end of disc 3. On disc 4, if you did side quests as you went, the only thing to do is get Zidane's ultimate weapon and go to Memoria and the end of the game.

They're treated so much as dead weight that there are stretches where you don't have Zidane in your party and they show ATE's of what everyone else is doing in towns, etc.

[The_Mike]

Guys, you still aren't getting what Cewsh said. I'm not going to repeat it again, since you seem to be so determined that he said what you think he said there's no real point getting sucked further into this circular argument. Ok, I'll repeat it one more time, just to be clear:


I think he hits the nail on the head by saying that the characters outside of Zidane and Kuja are deadweight and really have nothing to do with the culmination, and nothing you guys are saying is really countering that

For the record, I did like Final Fantasy IX, and I don't have a problem with other people liking it. I thoroughly enjoyed all the PSOne Final Fantasy games. I just felt similar to Cewsh about how IX's endgame worked out.

Changing the subject a little, did anyone enjoy the Dragon Quest series as much as the Final Fantasy games? I must admit, I've only played DQ8 (hoping to get 9 soon) and I absolutely loved it, but it wasn't quite reaching the heights in terms of story and character of something like FFVI onwards. Beautiful game though.

[Atty]

Actually both OMG and I addressed that. Twice. They save Zidane from becoming a soulless puppet in Terra. Before that, the secondary characters get more development time than in any other FF game, if you follow all the ATEs and side quests. It's easy to miss a lot of the side quests if you just playthrough as there are most of them can only be triggered at certain points (when the group is dividing/different lead characters.)

After Terra, it's about going to Memoria and wrapping up the main character's story. And then having Dagger become Queen. And Steiner hooking up with Beatrix. And Finishing up Quina's journey of gourmet. And giving the Mages and Zidane/Kuja clones a home together. Of course the end of the game focuses on the main character. Did 7 put Vincent, Nanaki and Yuffie center stage in the North Crater? Did 8 make Zell the focus in Ultimicia's castle? No. It's about wrapping up the main's story, first and foremost, as they already wrapped up the others in the game.

[ChocolateThunder]

I can get the newest Final Fantasy brand new for A$38. Is it worth it?

[Cewsh]

Depends. What do you want out of it?

[ChocolateThunder]

Just a fun RPG/adventure game. It's on special marked down from A$120 (yes, games are truly that expensive here).

Any other Aussies interested in it need to check Game out right now. It's available at that price until August 30.

[The_Mike]

It's a good story to follow and combat is generally fun with a well balanced learning curve, but there's very little adventuring since you just run down corridors to the next cutscene again and again for about 90% of the game, killing enemies on the way. I wasn't a huge fan of it, but for that cheap (relatively) I'd go for it, especially if you're a Final Fantasy fan.

[Atty]

At that much of a markdown, I say go for it. I didn't get XIII, but that was because I'm not the biggest fan of the futuristic style and I love adventuring/exploring in these games. I watched a fair bit of it at a friend's before it was out and it's the type of thing that I'll pick up on a discount but wasn't going to run out and buy.

[ChocolateThunder]

I picked it up.... Played about four and a half hours over the past couple of days.. It's a truly gorgeous game. Good story.

Was worth it at that price. Can't get much better for that value these days.

[The_Mike]

So Final Fantasy XIV will be out in Japan, Europe and North America in... 28 days. That sort of crept up on me. Not that anyone will care, since it's an online one again, but still...

EDIT: Oh and there's an open beta too.

[jesus sucks]

i care but only about the PS3 version which isn't out for 6 months. game looks incredible :yes: .

[Excel]

Already?

[One Man Gang]

Hmm. I think I'll try it out. Need a good RPG to break in my PS3.

[Cewsh]

Did 11 really do so well that we need to revisit this again?

I mean, I get that the online tools have improved by leaps and bounds, but still. Final Fantasy games don't have the pull they once did and no console MMORPG has ever worked at all.

[The_Mike]

It's $80 or something for the game and $12.99 a month for the subscription, by the way. Don't know the EU or Japanese prices but following convention, I'm sure it'll cost enough to start a small space programme in Europe...

[The_Mike]

So I'm watching Spoony's review of FFVIII, which I find hilarious even if I actually really liked the game. But I have noticed something odd - there seem to be a few differences between the game he's playing and the one I played. In one scene Seifer calls Zell a "chicken-wuss", which is a pretty silly and childish insult, but when I played it, he actually said "chicken-shit". There was also a weird thing where Squall wandered into someone's house and searched around and was told "You found an issue of Timber Maniacs..... NOT!". In my copy, I'm sure it was pretty explicit that he found some guy's old porn mag. So, I'm guessing FFVIII was somewhat censored for the US market (because slashing someone's face open is cool, but a passing reference to boobs and the word shit are totally unacceptable), but I'm curious to what extent localisation has had that sort of impact on the series. Anyone notice any other similar issues?

[Deewun]

http://image.fpsbanana.com/ico/sprays/kefka_laugh_giant.gif

6 was the absolute best. Everything about this game was amazing.

Of the next gen consoles ... meh, I don't care. I hated 7, and liked 8, but 8 isn't as good as 6.

EDIT - Mike: Yeah, I noticed that in his reviews, too. The PC version I owned cursed and said the same crazy thing about the porn mag. Perhaps that's the difference?

[Atty]

He definitely says chicken wuss in the ps1 version I have had since it came out.

[The_Mike]

I have the PSOne version as well. My point was that I think it's a localisation issue - apparently swearing wasn't kosher in the Sony Playstation in the US. Interesting it seems to have slipped through in the PC version though. Maybe they were published by different people.

[Atty]

They swear in the US version of FF VII, so it seems really odd that there would be an issue for VIII.

[Vice]

Well, in VII all the swearing is along the lines of "@*#&!!!", which fits the feel of the game really well in an odd way. Seifer saying "chicken @*#&!!!" just seems very, very.. wrong, so swapping out words here and there seems more fitting.

[Cewsh]

Chickenwuss fits his character. He's a childish bully.

[Atty]

I bet Zell was a chicken fucker...

[JRSlim21]

YouTube - Super Troopers - Chicken Fucker!

[Excel]

My version said Chicken Wuss too, and ofcourse I had the PAL PS version.

The PAL PS version of 7 did have a lot of %&£$@ but did say Shit a few times too.

[The_Mike]

My version said Chicken Wuss too, and ofcourse I had the PAL PS version.

The PAL PS version of 7 did have a lot of %&£$@ but did say Shit a few times too.

My VIII was PAL too. Did you get the platinum version or something? I'm curious since mine really did say shit. I remember VII saying shit a couple of times too, or "shi't" on one occasion.

[Excel]

Ive had both, had the original, lost it (still years later have no idea what happened to it) so bought it platinum on ebay a couple years ago and still says Wuss.

[The_Mike]

:dunno: Maybe I hallucinated, or ended up with an EU localisation instead of a UK one.

[Stan Hibbert]

My PAL copy (bought on day one) has chicken wuss and the dummy Timber Maniacs.

[The_Mike]

Good news, everyone! Square-Enix have finally heard the please of their people, and have agreed to remake a classic Final Fantasy for the PS3.

Guess which one?

X. FFS!
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/113003-Square-Enix-Dusts-Off-Final-Fantasy-X-for-PS3-Remake

[Cewsh]

:lol:

TAKE THAT VII FANS!

In fairness, it makes sense. X was a huge, huge seller, and i'm sure it will take less work to update it from being a top notch graphical PS2 game to the PS3 rather than a low grade PS1 game. They'll basically have to start from scratch with character modeling and environments to give us VII.

[TraXX]

:grumpy:

FFX was a good start to life on the PS2, but personally I'd have preferred either VI or IX. VII is just a pipe dream. :cry:

[Bad Collin]

Converting any of the PSone FF games would be a massive task, HD FFX will do nicely.

[Cewsh]

Its worth remembering, too, that this was the most successful Final Fantasy game in Japan, a market that has been drying up in terms of RPG sales recently.

Its a shrewd move.

[The_Mike]

I honestly don't see the point. FFX isn't exactly difficult to look at, even today, and it already has full voice acting, an orchestral score, etc. Slapping an HD coat of paint on it and selling it again may be shrewd, or some might call it cynical. Honestly, I'm sick of Square at this point.

Obviously I don't have to buy it and complaining is fairly pointless in itself, but damn it's galling for them to finally remake a classic FF for a modern console and have it turn out to be fucking X.

[Cewsh]

But its logical why the chose this one, really. They needed a project they could be sure that would bring in some money without risking that it not be accepted at all like their recent efforts have been. It helps the sagging Japanese market, is a low risk, low cost deal, and its entirely possible that they're testing the waters to see what the sales for this sort of thing will be before they go for the PS1 games.

Final Fantasy VII's remake is going to be an enormous undertaking, not too far off from simply designing and making an entirely new Final Fantasy game altogether. The graphical advancements are going to change the tone and feel of the game we're familiar with, and any gameplay changes will me met with outright scorn, even if they're to better suit the game to the changes both graphical and hardware wise. All that, and its a game that is older that some of their target audience. I can understand why they'd be skittish to pursue it as the cost grows exponentially higher now that they've remade the easy 8 and 16 bit ones.

Honestly, this is probably the smartest move Square-Enix has made in the past decade.

[RuneEdge]

I was unsure about getting a Vita at first but I'm definately getting it after the FFX news. So yeah, great move. :yes:

[The Rogerer]

It's inevitable. They did away with the PS2 backward compatibility, so everything has to be rereleased in order to resell and digitially distribute it.

[The_Mike]

But its logical why the chose this one, really. They needed a project they could be sure that would bring in some money without risking that it not be accepted at all like their recent efforts have been. It helps the sagging Japanese market, is a low risk, low cost deal, and its entirely possible that they're testing the waters to see what the sales for this sort of thing will be before they go for the PS1 games.

Final Fantasy VII's remake is going to be an enormous undertaking, not too far off from simply designing and making an entirely new Final Fantasy game altogether. The graphical advancements are going to change the tone and feel of the game we're familiar with, and any gameplay changes will me met with outright scorn, even if they're to better suit the game to the changes both graphical and hardware wise. All that, and its a game that is older that some of their target audience. I can understand why they'd be skittish to pursue it as the cost grows exponentially higher now that they've remade the easy 8 and 16 bit ones.

Honestly, this is probably the smartest move Square-Enix has made in the past decade.

I don't care if it's smart or logical. It's shitty. It's not as if it would be impossible for Square to do what their customers are actually looking for instead of taking the easy option. I know I'm getting into whiny fanboy territory, but I am sick to death of so many game companies taking the easy, logical route to make as much cash as possible. I understand it's a business and they have to make money and have every right to be as lazy in going about it as possible (who wouldn't?), but i

Honestly, I'm just really frustrated that you're right, and the reason you're right is something I have been sick of for a long time. Ridiculously realistic graphics and complex 3D environments pushing hardware requirements and production costs higher and higher at the expense of everything else. It's a much bigger issue than Square, but I feel their quality has really slacked off as they strive harder and harder to make their games look pretty, and moves like this really turn me off when it's not exactly necessary for them to be particularly cagey. A FFVII remake would sell enormously, and if they could keep it in their pants so to speak, they could make it look decent enough without costing a bomb.

[Cewsh]

Square's quality has slacked off, and they haven't put out a viable product in 8 years, surviving solely off of nostalgia. They suck and they ruined my dear Enix and threw Uematsu out on the street.

However I think its being lost just what a hopeful sign this is towards the possibility of a remade VII. All of their prior remakes were incredibly easy and cheap to remake and provide. But X is going to be a somewhat expensive renovation, graphically, and since that's what VII needs (to different extents, naturally), the fact that they're doing it here to test the waters is incredibly hopeful. Whether you like X or not, you should be rooting for this to be wildly successful, because that will force the hand that they've been holding back on for all these years. And also, you have to remember that their fans have ALSO been calling for remakes of 6,8,9 and 10. Its not like they're remaking Chocobo Dungeon here. Be reasonable.

[The_Mike]

I've never come across fans looking for a remake of X. The others, certainly, but X? I don't hate it or anything but I just haven't heard anyone clamouring for it being updated for a next gen console. And why would they? As I said earlier, it really needs it the least, since there's nothing to be gained but it looking a bit sharper. I also don't see why Square need to test the waters to see if a remake is successful when they know their fans are salivating for updated versions of VI-IX.

I don't see this as a hopeful sign at all, really. It's nice they are leaning slightly in the direction of updating a modernish game to a very modern console, but they are dipping their toe in so gingerly, cynically looking for immediate gratification in terms of return on investment, that I don't have much faith they are interested in doing what has been asked for since the PS3 was an embryo. I'm not going to hold their hand and tell them it's all right while they redo X, X-2 and XII in the hope that eventually they'll put out and give us what we want.

[Cewsh]

I've never come across fans looking for a remake of X. The others, certainly, but X? I don't hate it or anything but I just haven't heard anyone clamouring for it being updated for a next gen console.

Final Fantasy X was a hit primarily in three demographics that Square has trouble reaching and dearly wants to reach. With women, with their Japanese audience, and with casual games. Funnily enough, I doubt we hear from too many of those people on this issue, but there are infinitely more of them than there are people demanding a Final Fantasy VII reboot and raging at Square on the internet for not serving it up to them.


And why would they? As I said earlier, it really needs it the least, since there's nothing to be gained but it looking a bit sharper.

But that isn't true. With the lack of backwards compatibility, this is the only way for you to even play this game except on your old dusty PS2. And frankly, people leap at the chance to buy rereleases with moderate graphical upgrades all the time. Its practically been George Lucas' mission statement for a decade now and he's made bank on it. If people weren't willing to do this then they wouldn't have fled VHS for DVD, DVD for HDVD and HDVD for Blue Ray. Its the nature of people to seek these kinds of improvements, and just bringing it back into public consciousness will likely take advantage of the nostalgia many casual gamers had for one of the best selling Playstation games of all time.


I also don't see why Square need to test the waters to see if a remake is successful when they know their fans are salivating for updated versions of VI-IX.

And who are the fans doing the salivating, exactly? Outspoken hardcore gamers on the internet? The ones that never manage to make anything catered to them near as successful as those things catered to the casual audience? Let's remember, this game is FOURTEEN YEARS OLD. As I said before, that's as old as many of the people they'd be trying to sell a game of this type to, and this game came out in a time when gaming wasn't nearly so large an industry and so mainstream a topic as it is today. Would it do great business? Sure, I imagine it would. But treating it like some kind of slam dunk certainty is just not the case.


I don't see this as a hopeful sign at all, really. It's nice they are leaning slightly in the direction of updating a modernish game to a very modern console, but they are dipping their toe in so gingerly, cynically looking for immediate gratification in terms of return on investment, that I don't have much faith they are interested in doing what has been asked for since the PS3 was an embryo. I'm not going to hold their hand and tell them it's all right while they redo X, X-2 and XII in the hope that eventually they'll put out and give us what we want.

First of all, the way you're using "we" has really pushed this from "point i'm trying to make" to "fanboy temper tantrum" and that's coming from a friend.

You and anyone else can say until your fingers are numb that you don't care about the business behind the decision, and you can be impatient for what you've been waiting for, but it will get you nowhere. I say this is a hopeful sign that we may get the thing you've been wanting (and myself as well) and so it is. Try to sit back and think about how utterly improbable it was 24 hours ago that the remake of 7 would ever happen at all, and then realize that this took the idea from "Should happen but wont" to "might actually happen if things go well".

If you judge only with impatience, you'll miss the enormity of that simple change.

[Atty]

I haven't read up on the "remake" of X, but I assume it'll be a remake the same way the God of War or Prince of Persia collections were remakes. That is to say basically the same game with a jump in frame rate and the graphics upscaled to hd. It's something that won't take much work and will sell. I've been playing old FFs lately and have held off on 10 or 12 (never played 12) as they're sure to get the hd remake treatment. It's really easy with PS2 games, shows a noticeable improvement in graphics and lets them make games available to those without backwards comparability.


I'm playing 7 right now and it's probably my favorite game of all time, but Cewsh is right about the work needed to remake it. Everything would have to be redone and, frankly, there could be a backlash as they'd have to change some things. It really would be making an entirely new game as only the story would be the same. That's not a bad thing, but it's a massive project that they could easily fuck up.


I've been thinking about this while playing it but, if they do ever remake 7 they should offer multiple modes. Like how you can select "active" or "wait" for battles in the menu, have an option for an FF13 style ATB or "Classic Mode" where the battles work as they did in the original 7. That would require extra work but it would be a nice fail safe on fan reaction as it would keep it as it was while offering a new style of play that could appeal more to new gamers.

The other issue with a remake of 7 will be Sony. They used a redone version of the 7 intro as their PS3 tech demo and, after losing exclusivity with 13, I'm sure they'd do everything to make it a PS3 exclusive title.

[wardy]

Ocarina Of Time

[Atty]

And who are the fans doing the salivating, exactly? Outspoken hardcore gamers on the internet? The ones that never manage to make anything catered to them near as successful as those things catered to the casual audience? Let's remember, this game is FOURTEEN YEARS OLD. As I said before, that's as old as many of the people they'd be trying to sell a game of this type to, and this game came out in a time when gaming wasn't nearly so large an industry and so mainstream a topic as it is today. Would it do great business? Sure, I imagine it would. But treating it like some kind of slam dunk certainty is just not the case.

ok, I agreed with Cewsh about FF7 being massive to remake and how they'd have to rebuild it from the ground up. Having agreed with him on something, I'm now contractually obligated to tell him why he's wrong.

I really disagree with notion of it just being a handful people on the internet wanting a remake of 7 and it not being relevant on account of being 14 years old. Since then they've made two movies (three if you count the 30 minute longer Complete cut as a separate entity) based on 7, a spin off sequel for PS2, a prequel for the PSP and a mobile phone prequel game. All have sold well for them so it's not exactly like this is some random people wanting this for no reason. They've kept the propety alive over the years and it's something a lot of people have asked for.

Oh and let's not forget:

Final Fantasy 7 [PS3] technical demo PlayStation 3 - YouTube


They've done everything they can to put and keep the thought of a remake in their audience's mind over the years and, specifically, in recent years.

[Atty]

[edit] double post

I'll just add that they did start their last game with a former soldier jumping off a train with their black side kick to fight a giant robot scorpion controlled by an evil government.

[Cewsh]

ok, I agreed with Cewsh about FF7 being massive to remake and how they'd have to rebuild it from the ground up. Having agreed with him on something, I'm now contractually obligated to tell him why he's wrong.

I really disagree with notion of it just being a handful people on the internet wanting a remake of 7 and it not being relevant on account of being 14 years old. Since then they've made two movies (three if you count the 30 minute longer Complete cut as a separate entity) based on 7, a spin off sequel for PS2, a prequel for the PSP and a mobile phone prequel game. All have sold well for them so it's not exactly like this is some random people wanting this for no reason. They've kept the propety alive over the years and it's something a lot of people have asked for.

Oh and let's not forget:

Final Fantasy 7 [PS3] technical demo PlayStation 3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv8cYrGG220&feature=youtube_gdata_player)


They've done everything they can to put and keep the thought of a remake in their audience's mind over the years and, specifically, in recent years.

I didn't mean to make it sound like NOBODY cared about this or wanted it. But i'll stand by the idea of it being a risky seller. Advent Children and Crisis Core were not even remotely the successes they hoped them to be.

[Atty]

I didn't mean to make it sound like NOBODY cared about this or wanted it. But i'll stand by the idea of it being a risky seller. Advent Children and Crisis Core were not even remotely the successes they hoped them to be.

From the data I could find, Crisis Core was the fourth Hughes selling PSP title. The top two were what looks to be a Japan only game I hadn't heard of and number three was a GTA game.

That not even remotely fits the "not even remotely the successes" status.

[The_Mike]

Final Fantasy X was a hit primarily in three demographics that Square has trouble reaching and dearly wants to reach. With women, with their Japanese audience, and with casual games. Funnily enough, I doubt we hear from too many of those people on this issue, but there are infinitely more of them than there are people demanding a Final Fantasy VII reboot and raging at Square on the internet for not serving it up to them.

What Atty said. I think you do a disservice to people when you write them off collectively as people on the internet, when the rabid fandom is made up of many individuals. I know plenty of women and a couple of casual gamers who loved Final Fantasy VII. Not that anecdotes mean much in the grand scheme of things. Anyway, Atty explained all this better.


But that isn't true. With the lack of backwards compatibility, this is the only way for you to even play this game except on your old dusty PS2. And frankly, people leap at the chance to buy rereleases with moderate graphical upgrades all the time. Its practically been George Lucas' mission statement for a decade now and he's made bank on it. If people weren't willing to do this then they wouldn't have fled VHS for DVD, DVD for HDVD and HDVD for Blue Ray. Its the nature of people to seek these kinds of improvements, and just bringing it back into public consciousness will likely take advantage of the nostalgia many casual gamers had for one of the best selling Playstation games of all time.

Everyone in the world got rid of their PS2, PS2 slim or old PS3? It's not as if it's a game that is impossible to get a hold of that is crying out to appear on a modern console so people can play it again.

People went from VHS to DVD because it offered an enormous advantage - a much better picture, a much faster navigation system, and lots more storage to include extra features and so on. BluRay and HD-DVD didn't take off nearly as well, that's why regular DVDs are still all over the place, because all they gave people was a prettier picture at an inflated price. It's a great comparison, but it doesn't work to your advantage.



And who are the fans doing the salivating, exactly? Outspoken hardcore gamers on the internet? The ones that never manage to make anything catered to them near as successful as those things catered to the casual audience? Let's remember, this game is FOURTEEN YEARS OLD. As I said before, that's as old as many of the people they'd be trying to sell a game of this type to, and this game came out in a time when gaming wasn't nearly so large an industry and so mainstream a topic as it is today. Would it do great business? Sure, I imagine it would. But treating it like some kind of slam dunk certainty is just not the case.

Yeah, it is. It's the most popular RPG of all time. Popularity doesn't entirely translate into pure sales, but this thing has been such a large part of the gaming landscape for so long that Square would have to absolutely bomb the promotion of it to not see a flurry of sales. You're acting like this is wrestling and there's fifteen guys on a forum wanting to see CM Punk vs some random Japanese guy in the main event of Wrestlemania, whether or not it makes any money. This is more like booking Austin vs Undertaker - it's going to be hard not to sell tickets.


First of all, the way you're using "we" has really pushed this from "point i'm trying to make" to "fanboy temper tantrum" and that's coming from a friend.

You and anyone else can say until your fingers are numb that you don't care about the business behind the decision, and you can be impatient for what you've been waiting for, but it will get you nowhere. I say this is a hopeful sign that we may get the thing you've been wanting (and myself as well) and so it is. Try to sit back and think about how utterly improbable it was 24 hours ago that the remake of 7 would ever happen at all, and then realize that this took the idea from "Should happen but wont" to "might actually happen if things go well".

I never expected typing a rant or being impatient to get me anywhere. You really think I'm just plain stupid and think that whining online will have any effect? I'm just expressing how I feel, and right now I feel frustrated with Square and the industry as a whole.

And as I explained in my previous post, I really do not think that this step makes a FFVII remake even 1% more likely. This is blatant cash-cow milking in the safest possible way. It's not even going after the teat with the most milk, because that would require too much work. It's simply lazy profiteering. It's good that you feel encouraged, even a little, but I just don't see it.


If you judge only with impatience, you'll miss the enormity of that simple change.

They're not likely to be making many changes, simple or otherwise. It's an HD update to a game that didn't look that bad to begin with. This is just slapping a new coat of paint on something and selling it again because they can - nothing like testing the waters for the viability of a remake of a much older game in a very different style that would require a lot more work to rebuild and that doesn't exactly need a trial run in the first place.


I didn't mean to make it sound like NOBODY cared about this or wanted it. But i'll stand by the idea of it being a risky seller. Advent Children and Crisis Core were not even remotely the successes they hoped them to be.

The reception part of the Wiki article on Advent Children describes pretty good sale success and that Square seemed happy with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII_Advent_Children

Some of those achievements are not to be sneezed at. Neither's 4.1 million sales.

[RuneEdge]

Btw, on the point of how much effort this is going to take, here are some mock pictures of what FFX would probably look like on the Vita.

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4227/ffx05.png

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5809/ffx07.png

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9683/ffx11.png

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/297/ffx14.png

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4334/ffx16.png

Bare in mind that these were made using pictures that were taken using a PS2 emulator that upscaled the game to HD. Its just a matter of popping your disc into a PC and running the emulator. I imagine it wouldnt even take that much effort to release an upscaled game, except for the time it takes to maybe redo the CGI at a higher resolution, maybe redo the music, title screen, menus, etc. But the game itself already has textures and models that dont seem out of place when displayed in HD.

Now compare that to the huge change in quality that FFVII would need and we're talking about a remake that would take just as much time as a whole new installment in the series.

[Cewsh]

From the data I could find, Crisis Core was the fourth Hughes selling PSP title. The top two were what looks to be a Japan only game I hadn't heard of and number three was a GTA game.

That not even remotely fits the "not even remotely the successes" status.

Considering the PSP had had exactly one game that sold particularly well, the GTA one, before it and it came in fourth, and this was the first new Final Fantasy VII game since the original came out that filled in holes in the story, I think it can be said to be fairly disappointing.


What Atty said. I think you do a disservice to people when you write them off collectively as people on the internet, when the rabid fandom is made up of many individuals. I know plenty of women and a couple of casual gamers who loved Final Fantasy VII. Not that anecdotes mean much in the grand scheme of things. Anyway, Atty explained all this better.

My point was not that people on the internet are somehow less valid than people in real life. My point was that you can't base a large portion of your company's resources on something that people are yelling about on message boards. If you could, then CM Punk would have done the biggest buyrate in human history. As I said, there are many people who would love a remake, and i'm sure that we'll eventually get one if this project is successful, but to react with scorn to anything other than this tangible beast that is the internet subconscious wants is petulant, and irrational.


Everyone in the world got rid of their PS2, PS2 slim or old PS3? It's not as if it's a game that is impossible to get a hold of that is crying out to appear on a modern console so people can play it again.

Quite a lot of people still have their Playstation 2. Many people probably will play this game there instead of buying a new version. But are people who own a Playstation 3 going to dust off a decade old system to play the same version of the same game they've already played, or are they more likely to grab the flashy new upgraded version of one of their favorite old games and play it on their primary system?

The success of the Virtual Console and the downloadable games for XBox360 and PS3 show that they'll do the latter in spades.


People went from VHS to DVD because it offered an enormous advantage - a much better picture, a much faster navigation system, and lots more storage to include extra features and so on. BluRay and HD-DVD didn't take off nearly as well, that's why regular DVDs are still all over the place, because all they gave people was a prettier picture at an inflated price. It's a great comparison, but it doesn't work to your advantage.

We could certainly debate whether or not Blu-Ray will ever entirely penetrate the marketplace or not, and that's an interesting topic for debate, but it isn't the point. The success of Blue Ray AT ALL is an indicator of what i'm talking about here. Blu-Ray offers purely an aesthetic difference, as does this, but it has carved out a tremendously successful place for itself in the marketplace and so have game remakes along the same lines.


Yeah, it is. It's the most popular RPG of all time. Popularity doesn't entirely translate into pure sales, but this thing has been such a large part of the gaming landscape for so long that Square would have to absolutely bomb the promotion of it to not see a flurry of sales. You're acting like this is wrestling and there's fifteen guys on a forum wanting to see CM Punk vs some random Japanese guy in the main event of Wrestlemania, whether or not it makes any money. This is more like booking Austin vs Undertaker - it's going to be hard not to sell tickets.

I'm not convinced that Austin vs. Undertaker now WOULD sell tickets, and that's the whole point. The value of these things diminshes over time. Now there are exceptions, absolutely. Games have been rereleased recently that are older that have met with success, and this could certainly accomplish that too. But its not a guarantee. The only actual evidence that anyone has offered to suggest that it would be is saying "Its super popular, everyone would buy it" which wouldn't convince the Treasurer at the local bingo hall, much less the board of directors at Square-Enix.

The thing working in favor of this game being made is that there's a movement in the game industry towards remakes of games with better graphics and updated gameplay. First with the Mario successes, then with the Ocarina of Time remake scheduled for soon, and then with this Final Fantasy X announcement. Its a promising sign. And that's all i've been saying here. They probably WILL do it, but X needed to happen first to prove to them that it was the right decision. If it works, then it is.


I never expected typing a rant or being impatient to get me anywhere. You really think I'm just plain stupid and think that whining online will have any effect? I'm just expressing how I feel, and right now I feel frustrated with Square and the industry as a whole.

Mikey, you know that I don't think you're stupid. Ease back a bit, amigo. We're all frustrated with Square-Enix, but that doesn't mean its right to flame the good decisions along with the bad.


And as I explained in my previous post, I really do not think that this step makes a FFVII remake even 1% more likely. This is blatant cash-cow milking in the safest possible way. It's not even going after the teat with the most milk, because that would require too much work. It's simply lazy profiteering. It's good that you feel encouraged, even a little, but I just don't see it.

You're trying not to see it, and it does you no credit.

Yes this is cash cow milking. THAT'S A GOOD THING. That means that if this cow produces a shitton of milk for them, they'll want to milk another, even if it costs more to get. The idea that they would take the big risk FIRST in this relatively new and unexplored field of developing for them is asinine and totally unlike any company of their size and stature in the gaming industry. When you look at the pattern of how these things go it is extremely hopeful. They're tentatively going with a trend to see if it carries water. If it does, then you'll have your game. If it doesn't then we get a sexy looking X. Nobody actually loses here.


They're not likely to be making many changes, simple or otherwise. It's an HD update to a game that didn't look that bad to begin with. This is just slapping a new coat of paint on something and selling it again because they can - nothing like testing the waters for the viability of a remake of a much older game in a very different style that would require a lot more work to rebuild and that doesn't exactly need a trial run in the first place.

They are testing the market for games from that generation to see if the demand would recoup the costs of production.


The reception part of the Wiki article on Advent Children describes pretty good sale success and that Square seemed happy with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII_Advent_Children

Some of those achievements are not to be sneezed at. Neither's 4.1 million sales.

Diminishing returns.

The Marine starring John Cena, a movie universally panned and with a smaller built in audience, made 21 million in DVD sales.

If Sony say they were happy with it then fair enough. But I don't think those numbers have them chomping at the bit to throw money at this project.

[Atty]

Considering the PSP had had exactly one game that sold particularly well, the GTA one, before it and it came in fourth, and this was the first new Final Fantasy VII game since the original came out that filled in holes in the story, I think it can be said to be fairly disappointing.
Let me stop you right there. GTA Vice City Stories has sold 2.7 million copies. Crisis Core has sold 2.59 million. And it wasn't the first entry in FF7 cannon since FF7. Before Crisis and Dirge of Cerebus both came out before it.


Also, FF7 sold 9.8 million copies on the PSX. FFX sold 6.6 million on the PS2. To put that in perspective, Halo (which is getting a remake) sold 5 million copies for the xbox. And before you say "but Halo 3 was the best selling game in the series" let me say, it was. Halo 3 sold an impressive 8.1 million copies.