So, Paul Heyman and TNA then...

[Tom B. Stone]

I posted this in News and Notes in the WWE Wrestling forum, but it maybe fits better as its own thread here.

On the Wrestling Observer radio show on Sunday night, Paul Heyman explained what it would take for him to join TNA.

He doesn't want to just be another member of the creative team. If he's going to take time away from his family, it's got to be worth it. So he wants complete creative control, the ability to hire his own booking/marketing staff, and an eventual IPO to get on an even keel with WWE. He's making some big demands, and says he will not work for TNA under any other circumstances.

He noted if he wanted to get back in the business and just be miserable, he could go back to WWE as a consultant. It's doubtful anyone would pay any attention to him but he'd be a very short drive from home and would be paid more.

So, don't expect Heyman to lead the expected ECW stale, tired retread faction in TNA.

[Vice]

Give in, Dixie.

[Cewsh]

As good a deal as she's likely to get.

[Kure]

I don't see it happening. Giving Paul Heyman, who already ran a business he owned into the ground, complete control. It sounds like a risky business proposition for a company using pro wrestling as an investment.

[Vice]

TNA is already being run into the ground, and nothing is really going to change things since very few people give a shit about wrestling anymore. At least with Heyman they could go out with a bang and leave on a good note.

[Kure]

I'm not arguing that. I am just saying that if I am a company backing something that is already hemmorraging money, I don't know that giving complete control to someone who does not have a stellar business background is something I would see as an answer.

Besides, I really think ECW was lightning in a bottle. It was different for that time period, and worked for awhile, but wouldn't anymore. If you brought ECW back right now, it might not be as successful as TNA already is.

[Cewsh]

I'm generally very anti-Paul Heyman. But at least he would have one clear and concise vision, and would be definitely in control, unlike the hodgebodge of committees they have now.

[Mills]

I would assume that they wouldn't sell the company to him madman, I believe he's talking more in terms of creative aspects. His business accumen is irrelevant in this case.

[Defrost]

He wants the deal Dana White has with UFC

Watch the interview

YouTube- Paul Heyman talks WWE, TNA, UFC, Brock Lesnar

[JRSlim21]

UFC is thankful for Dana. Before him, their biggest pop culture moment was from Friends

[Sphere]

I like how Heyman wants to come into TNA with those demands. From those comments, I know that Heyman truly wants to come into TNA, and actually wants to turn TNA into a winning organization.

Its all up on Dixie to just agree, and I hope Dixie does.

[Zacharie]

What would you do if you were Paul and you ran TNA?

[Dubya]

I still think Foley will be the one leading the ECW guys in TNA.

[Cewsh]

What would you do if you were Paul and you ran TNA?

Fire everyone, change the name and start from scratch.

No, there's a million answers to that question, but my mind keeps circling around "start over".

[JRSlim21]

Rebooting a company didn't work for WCW. Yep, just opened Pandora's Box on that 1.


In all honesty, to play the hypothetical that Heyman ends up taking over creative, there's the small possibility that he would consider having the X Division title on par with the World Title. RVD was the TV Champ for a long time with multiple guys wearing the World Title belt but RVD was the main attraction with the logic being that if he's over and and looks dominant with the belt, why should he lose it? With that, the belt was considered more than just a midcard title and RVD was considered as good as, if not better, than any other champ.
Now I'm not expecting Heyman to say, hey, Amazing Red! We're gonna make you look on par with Sting, but again it's just one of those things to discuss cause you know thats what message boards are for.

[Cewsh]

WCW never rebooted, foo'

[Defrost]

Now I'm not expecting Heyman to say, hey, Amazing Red! We're gonna make you look on par with Sting

Not Amazing Red in particular but this is what I'd expect. Heyman's style in ECW was to always without fail put young guys over the old guys. Dudleys over Public Enemy. Taz over Bam Bam and Shane Douglas. Sabu over Terry Funk. RVD over Bam Bam and Sabu. Immediately putting the TV title on Eddie and Jericho the second they came in. That's what he does.

[Motherboy]

WCW never rebooted, foo'

The short answer to that is you're right. The long answer is that they had to elevate a hell of a lot of midcard talent really fast around 2000 and bring in Powerplant/indy talent to fill out the undercard, to the point where it resembled an entirely new company.

Anyway, if I was Paul Heyman I'd do what I'm good at, which is logical character development. Putting guys in a position to do what they're best at. Firing Eric Young.

Oh, and taping some of those old Baldies-type promos with Homicide. Out on the street, handheld-cam type stuff.

[Cewsh]

If he fires Eric Young, I would be 100% in support of anything else he did.

Including putting Rhino back on tv.

[Sphere]

If Heyman comes in and fires Eric Young, I would be surprised to see backlash from anyone on the net. Everyone deserves a chance, and Eric Young got his chances. Now its time to go.

[Cold_Hearted_Truth]

Less PPV's. More 'Clash of the Champions' like programs. Add a faction or two. Those are changes in general.

I don't know if Heyman would make a huge difference. I just think it's a different era (UFC is king) and the advent of DVR/Itunes don't make tuning in a high priority.

ECW on TNN was generating about the same ratings as TNA does now. I see little reason to expect that to change.

[Bert]

This is from his 2008 interview with The Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/heyman/article807442.ece#ixzz0sxnwxwDt)


I think TNA has a major hurdle to overcome - and that's the fact that they have no BRAND. There's no one on that roster that is branded TNA.

You look at Kurt Angle and you think WWE. You look at Booker T and think WCW, five-time, five-time, five-time or King Booker in WWE. You look at The Dudleys and think ECW or WWE or even tables.

You look at Samoa Joe, who should be the TNA guy, and you think this guy's great, when's he going to WWE.

Are there hot moments? Sure. Are there personalities to like? Sure. Is there a good work rate? Sure. But there is no TNA style, TNA persona or TNA brand.

They had an opportunity to do this with the X Division, which is a totally unique concept you don't see anywhere else in wrestling, MMA or sports entertainment.

That could have been their version of what UFC did with the Octagon but they diminished the effectiveness of their own creation.

They had a totally different and unique look and presentation, and then tossed it aside like it was just another gimmick.

For the life of me I can't understand why.


I haven't watched TNA in a few weeks but last I checked that still applied. The X-Division was the whole reason I started watching TNA and with it getting less and less time every week I'm less inclined to watch.

[xpacnumber1fan]

I would be worried about Heyman controlling financial things, but looking at what he's asking for, it's a good deal.

Heyman with complete creative control? Perfect. Heyman is a creative genius.

Heyman wants to hire his own booking staff? Perfect. Unlike Cornette, he won't be forced to work with Russo, Sullivan, or any other person Dixie or Hogan want to bring in. He surrounded himself with guys like Dreamer and Raven in ECW, and had a guy like Lance Storm to keep things in check. He was also humble enough to let guys like Foley do their own thing and it worked wonders.

He wants to hire his own marketing team? GREAT. It's been my biggest gripe with TNA for years. I thought Bischoff and Hogan would change that but they seem more concerned pushing their own agenda and patting themselves on the back.

Now the IPO thing is the only thing that is worrying. Heyman shouldn't have control over whether a company goes public or stays private. That's what the owners are for. But if they get around that, I would throw whatever amount of money Heyman wants. I would keep Bischoff in the back and send him as the slick guy to woo executives, give Hogan's salary to Heyman, and send Hogan to hell.

[Cewsh]

...and had a guy like Lance Storm to keep things in check.

?

Lance has said often that he had nothing to do with the backstage anything at ECW. He just had his match, got his check and flew home to his wife every night.

[Morrison]

I don't see it happening. Giving Paul Heyman, who already ran a business he owned into the ground, complete control. It sounds like a risky business proposition for a company using pro wrestling as an investment.

to be totally honest, when paul was running ECW, he was still relatively young and probably not quite mature enough to successfully run a business. plus he didn't have any of the backing that TNA already has. his time spent in the WWE probably gave him a lot of insight as to how wrestling as a business should work. to call into question the man of today because of the guy he was a decade ago, under incredibly different circumstances, doesn't make sense to me.

[Cewsh]

Well he did reveal himself to be completely unable to work with any sort of authority figure consistently during his time with WWE not TOO long ago.

Though it isn't the same thing, it doesn't speak well to a learned maturity.

[xpacnumber1fan]

?

Lance has said often that he had nothing to do with the backstage anything at ECW. He just had his match, got his check and flew home to his wife every night.

I'm pretty sure I've read on his own commentary that he helped out with booking. I might be wrong, but I'm almost positive I've read that.

http://wrestlingtruth.com/news/lance-strom-talks-ecw-with-wrestlingtruth/

Interview where he says he, Raven, Dreamer, and Heyman booked TV.

In fact, I'm doing a google search for Lance Storm booking ECW and I've finding a ton of references to it, even in his own biography on his website. Where did you get your information from?

[Defrost]

TNA should hire Jado and Gedo to book. We could get endless three way tag title matches in America that way.

[Morrison]

Well he did reveal himself to be completely unable to work with any sort of authority figure consistently during his time with WWE not TOO long ago.

Though it isn't the same thing, it doesn't speak well to a learned maturity.

that is why he wants to be the authority figure. getting in the face of authority isn't always a sign of immaturity.

and beyond that, doesn't mean he hasn't picked up how to run a successful business.

[xpacnumber1fan]

I think that he can't work with Vince is a good sign that he is a guy you want in your company. As far as everybody says, Vince surrounds himself with yes men, of which almost none are thought highly of.

[Cewsh]

Well allegedly Stephanie was who he had the issues with.

[Defrost]

Vince has always had a soft spot for Heyman. Probably since Paul started out in wrestling conning his way into a job as a photographer for the WWF way back when Vince's father was still in charge.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Well allegedly Stephanie was who he had the issues with.

I've heard people speak highly of her and others call her Vince Jr. What shoots speak of these incidents with Heyman in WWE? It's something I've meant to ask you.

[Cewsh]

None, that was just a rumor at the time of his demotion from Smackdown head writer.

Hence my stressing of the "allegedly" every time I bring it up.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Oh ok.

[Motherboy]

Whoever mentioned Lance helping out with ECW's booking is correct. He's said that he, Dreamer and Heyman booked a large part of the Tanaka/Awesome/Impact Players era of ECW. And that time period, while Heyman didn't have much to work with with WCW and WWF buying up all the talent in sight, was still pretty awesome. Lance Storm would be an excellent continuity manager for booking. He's a soulless Vulcan who demands things be logical.

[jackielover144]

I say give him what he wants. The thing about TNA is they have a hell of a lot of guys that have the talent and can work (Guys like RVD, AJ Styles, Somoa Joe, Jay Lethal, Angle, Hardy, Anderson, MCMG, Matt Morgan, HErnandez, Doug Williams, Kendrick, etc.,etc.,etc....) They just desperately need someone with a good creative mind to come in steer the ship in the right direction.

When Paul Heyman was booking Smackdown it was easily much better than RAW and highly entertaining and watchable.

And in terms of marketing and establishing their brand they need that as well. I really thought Hogan and Bichoff would have came in with a vision other than we are going to war and going to embarrass ourselves on Monday Nights.

[Dubya]

Heyman's helping Brock Lesnar write a book so I don't know how available he really is. I imagine that takes a while and I'm sure he'll be doing it while Brock has down time.. like right now.

[Kure]

that, doesn't mean he hasn't picked up how to run a successful business.

It doesn't mean he has, either.

[Cewsh]

I'm pretty sure I've read on his own commentary that he helped out with booking. I might be wrong, but I'm almost positive I've read that.

http://wrestlingtruth.com/news/lance-strom-talks-ecw-with-wrestlingtruth/

Interview where he says he, Raven, Dreamer, and Heyman booked TV.

In fact, I'm doing a google search for Lance Storm booking ECW and I've finding a ton of references to it, even in his own biography on his website. Where did you get your information from?

I just noticed your edit just now.

My info comes from his two shoot interviews with, I believe, RF Video.

[Vice]

In his Straight Shootin' interview, I'm fairly sure he mentioned how Paul pulled him aside and had him start booking shit after he suggested that one of the girls (Sytch?) pin him in a match to get more heat. It was one of those "you understand the business!" moments.

Also fairly sure he mentioned the same thing in his ridiculously long RF shoot too.

[Cewsh]

Hmm. Entirely possible i'm remembering things wrong.

My mistake, fellas.

[Vice]

I think once his checks started bouncing, he got into the show up, wrestle, get the fuck out of there groove that you mentioned, so maybe that's what confused you.

[Morrison]

It doesn't mean he has, either.

but it definitely asks for the benefit of the doubt, moreso than your assumption of 'once a bad businessman, always a bad businessman.'

[LarryLuv]

Paul has one of the greatest minds in the business...he has great foresight and knows how to make the product relevant CULTURALLY, outside of the wrestling bubble...something no product really has today, as Paul made reference to in the Alvarez interview on the first page of the threat post-Lesnar fight. What he said is true, there isn't any culturally significant figure in wrestling outside of Cena and he isn't on the level of Hogan, the nWo, Goldberg, the Rock, Stone Cold, etc. Nor is there a culturally significant theme in wrestling, whether its the super human - larger than life cartoon that was the 80's or the Hardcore / Heyman inspired "Attitude Era" of the mid-late 90's.

With all that said, I don't blame Paul one iota for being very hesitant about getting back into wrestling or even back into a position of high pressure...it is why he didn't jump on the Strikeforce deal with Scott Coker, the position just isn't the "perfect" opportunity. He really really respects Dana White...he wants to be Dana White, and he wants Dana's situation...he wants a company that gives him not just a job, but gives him a reason to get out of bed and give it his all...where his bottom line figure, the money he will "give to his kids" is determined...like what happened with ECW...it was his baby and the money he took home was determined by how good he did. If not, there just isn't a reason for him to go to work and be miserable and away from his kids.

I hope Dixie gives in...if she does, they have someone who has his shit together in regards to the business...he is someone that wants to have support from a network, and a financial backing and unconditional support for him...he wants Dana's situation...I don't blame him, Dana's got a cushy gig at this point.

As for TNA...they need to do exactly what Paul said...get a direction (consistent direction) and be able to market it to make people give a fuck about this good direction...

With the UFC and MMA being such a force culturally, wrestling is a back burner thing right now...it is tough to break into that Wrestling market share regardless, but even tougher to with MMA being so hot right now.

[Cold_Hearted_Truth]

Cena and he isn't on the level of Hogan, the nWo, Goldberg, the Rock, Stone Cold, etc. .

Cena not on Goldberg's level? I think Goldberg's level is many levels below Cena. And Cena's got a # of years left. Cena probably sells more merch in 1 year than Goldberg did in his entire career.

I would agree perhaps with the others you mentioned. Goldberg really stands out as not belonging in that group.

I think Goldberg's level is around The Ultimate Warrior. Great push over a short period.

[LOCONUT]

Goldberg has his own coffee line though. Jackhammer Java > Spinning Title Belt

[vitaminC]

This proves absolutely nothing but I thought it is worth mentioning. If I ask someone who Goldberg is almost everyone knows, if I ask someone who John Cena is the usual response is "who?"

[Vice]

People look back at Goldberg and think he is just some awful wrestler that had a neat streak, but everyone seems to forget just how fucking huge of a name he was and just how much he did for WCW.

People will most assuredly call bullshit on this because of my hatred for Cena, but he will never come close to having the impact on wrestling that Goldberg had.

[RockOverBoston]

Just watched that Heyman interview. Interesting stuff, but the highlight may very well have been Heyman calling Alvarez out on the whole "HOWWWWWSitGOING, EVERYBODY?" intro...which entertains the shit outta me, but someone probably had to say it.

[LarryLuv]

People look back at Goldberg and think he is just some awful wrestler that had a neat streak, but everyone seems to forget just how fucking huge of a name he was and just how much he did for WCW.

People will most assuredly call bullshit on this because of my hatred for Cena, but he will never come close to having the impact on wrestling that Goldberg had.

This.

Goldberg was particularly huge (I'd say possibly bigger than Austin/Rock) in the southern states here in the US. Goldberg a pop culture icon in the south...he was in every facet of the media...commercials, tv shows, sporting events, radio spots, etc.

Obviously, on a worldly level, Austin and the Rock were much more well known and popular, but down South was Goldberg territory. Big time popular.

[Cewsh]

People will most assuredly call bullshit on this because of my hatred for Cena, but he will never come close to having the impact on wrestling that Goldberg had.

How so, exactly?

[Defrost]

More people in America remember Ultimate Warrior than Bret Hart.

[Cewsh]

Is that related somehow?

[Defrost]

Flashes in the pan during hot periods are more famous than long term main eventers during lag times

[Cewsh]

Oh no doubt.

But he said influential.

[Vice]

I said impact. Defrost summed it up fairly well.

[Cewsh]

Fair enough.

I don't think that Goldberg had nearly the impact on wrestling even in his own company that Cena did, but the era probably trumped his name up, so it's possible I suppose.

[Vice]

They are pushing Cena as a giant superstar and giving him movie roles, appearances, and all this stuff like he is a giant superstar, but no one really gives that much of a shit about him since no one really gives that much of a shit about wrestling as a whole. Goldberg was THE star of a giant company when the wrestling industry was magical and he was as big of a star as WWF's top stars, and even bigger than them in some parts of the country (likewise with WWF's top stars in certain parts).

Plus Goldberg is Jewish and played an evil Santa. Come on now.

[Cewsh]

Goldberg was THE star of the company from pretty much around the exact moment WWE started to beat them, and onwards to their demise. He was buried, ruined, made to look silly, and mired in nonsense that people HATED.

Ultimately, even though he wasn't on top during as big of an era, Cena's much longer and higher quality run on top is almost guaranteed to have a bigger impact of the wrestling business as a whole. More people know the Ultimate Warrior, but people get into the business to be Bret Hart.

[Winkle van Tinkle]

It's probably hard to tell how big Goldberg was when you didn't watch wrestling at that time. You can't pick that up from old videos.

[JRSlim21]

I believe during that time THE biggest dream match people wanted to see was Austin vs. Goldberg. That's all people (generalization) would talk about. Kinda like Hogan vs Flair in the 80s. Or, on a much lesser scale, people would wonder now who would win between Cena and, I dunno, AJ? Joe? Tanahashi? Marufuji?

[Winkle van Tinkle]

There is no-one Cena could fight that would compare to an Austin Vs Goldberg fight. Not only because they were absolutely huge, but also because they were the faces of the big two companies.

[Cewsh]

That's as much an indictment of TNA than it is Cena.

[Vice]

And that no one really cares about wrestling these days.

[Cewsh]

That too.

There aren't ANY dream matches anymore, because nobody cares.

[Vice]

I would say there are some (maybe), but it would have to take place in TNA, where they will go "HOLY FUCK IT'S KURT ANGLE YOU ALL KNOW HIM AND HOW GREAT HE IS AND HE WILL FIGHT SAMOA JOE AND IT WILL BE EPIC!" and it will be a big match, but not HUGE because it's TNA and not WWE.

And dream matches won't be happening in WWE because they refuse to acknowledge other companies and how good/big their guys are. And also because no one knows who they are period. :\

Ugh. It's sad.

[Cewsh]

Yep, definitely is, and everybody everywhere is to blame.

Except me. :)

[Excel]

To be honest I got burned out on DREAM MATCHES OMGZ a few years ago after WWE basically ran through all of them.

[Chris]

Edit: As Excel just said above.

I think we're beyond the point of dream matches now that there's so much wrestling on TV. They burn through feuds so quickly and guys wrestle each other so often that there's less opportunity for something truly gigantic and fresh to come along.

Then there's the relevance of certain dream matches in the current climate. WWE has a younger fanbase than it did at the tail-end of the Attitude Era. I wonder how much they can connect with even someone like Austin. Many of them have never seen him as an active wrestler. They've seen tons of highlight videos and probably think he's cool for stunning people and driving zambonis. But an Austin match is going to appeal more to those who saw him at his peak - and some of those fans have moved on or are more interested in UFC than today's WWE.

That's why I just sat back and enjoyed RVD vs Joe. It might not have been on my immediate list of "dream matches", but it was something I never thought I'd see after RVD went on hiatus after his WWE career. Sure, they didn't tangle in a big PPV match after a month or two of heated build-up and hype. But with so few match-ups left that haven't been done in some capacity, it was just nice to see something fresh.

[The_Mike]

And that no one really cares about wrestling these days.

Wrestl-what?

I can't see Dixie Carter giving in, and unfortunately bringing Heyman on board would be likely read by her as 'giving in'. Everything I've seen about her behaviour over the past few years tells me she is too proud and has too much confidence in her own abilities to be seen as asking for help. Unless it's from Hogan, for some reason.

[nz19]

ffs, in my view that makes no sense at all. Dixie Carter owns and runs the business and the way Heyman's plans were described he pretty much wants to take over things.

Heyman is great at creative, true, but much like Russo he has a lot of bullshit ideas that need to be sifted through to get to the good ones and clearly has his own vision but if he wants his and only his vision to be seen he should work on running his own business correctly and not take over somebody else's.

Despite the hate on here, TNA is doing absolutely great and their weekly shows are miles ahead of any other wwe show each and every week.

If there was to be a signed deal, it would be on the basis of Heyman coming in to help elevate the show further and not take it over because that simply won't work.

I saw and heard Heyman as he spoke about how he'd need to be paid well to leave his family and to me that's a crooked way of looking at things. If he wants to stay with his family he should and it shouldn't be based on money. One of the things TNA was noted for, specifically Dixie Carter is for them to respect the families of the wrestlers and give them time off when they want it, for example as with Kurt Angle.

TNA should go nowhere near the direction of ECW, it's not fresh, not original and would not give more to TNA because what they have is a perfect blend of veterans and young wrestlers who want to perform at the highest level and stay true to the TNA brand each and every week

[Winkle van Tinkle]

To be honest, while I think Heyman has a talent, I think peoples memories have painted him to be a lot better than he actually was.

[Cewsh]

Good god, did somebody other than me say that for once?

What an odd day.

[Vice]

I'd be tempted to agree with that as well, but when he started booking OVW, it got insanely good. Whether he could work with the TNA roster is one thing, but I do believe he's still got it.

[Bert]

Despite the hate on here, TNA is doing absolutely great and their weekly shows are miles ahead of any other wwe show each and every week.


You can't seriously believe that? :lol:

[Vice]

TNA is far more entertaining than WWE overall at the moment. WWE is so boring and lifeless outside of one angle, and even that angle is getting kind of boring to me.

[Cewsh]

It may be boring and lifeless to you and not others.

[Vice]

Oh I'm sorry. In my opinion, of course.

[Newf]

Do we not still consider Rock/Cena (however unlikely) to be a dream match? I'd say that ranks closer to Hogan/Flair and Austin/Goldberg than it does any Cena vs. someone-from-TNA possibilities.

[Defrost]

Do we not still consider Rock/Cena (however unlikely) to be a dream match?\

No

And I say we all agree to say WWE and TNA both blow and call it a day

[Cewsh]

Nah.

[Bill Casey]

I enjoy both products...

What an uninteresting post I just made...

[LarryLuv]

I'd be tempted to agree with that as well, but when he started booking OVW, it got insanely good. Whether he could work with the TNA roster is one thing, but I do believe he's still got it.

It is very tough to say what TNA under Paul's booking would look like.

He is a guy that has constantly evolved his products...if you look at the start of ECW to the end of ECW, the product was different (for more reasons than simply the move to TNN) but then when he moved on to OVW and Smackdown...the products were different.

One thing he does do, is give you, plain as day, who the "top stars" of the company are...they are pushed as such and featured. It is probably one of the aspects that is missing most from TNA, are the staples of Paul's booking...clear top stars, big match feel, being able to get the best out of performers while covering weaknesses etc.

If you recall, Paul's next direction for the WWE, was going to be more "MMA" type stars...he already started building them up back on Smackers with Lesnar and Kurt and there was lots of Eddie and Benoit (back when Smackers was the hottest thing around).

I'd be interested to see what Paul could do with TNA, but I am not certain it is easy to pinpoint what he'd do or how he'd do it.

[Tyson]

Do we not still consider Rock/Cena (however unlikely) to be a dream match?

A Cena heel-turn on a face Rock would be pretty damn cool. :yes:

[nz19]

You can't seriously believe that?

It's not what I believe, it's a fact based on what I and many others feel about the two brands at the moment.

The matches, the promos and the stars of TNA are far superior to WWE at the moment. Last week we got to see Samoa Joe vs RVD, what did we see in WWE? Random rookies taking over the show while Michael Cole reads off his laptop?

TNA is what wrestling is and should be while WWE is confused on what they want to be but are happy to do what they do as long as it keeps the kiddies watching.

Rob Van Dam is champion and is booked strong, puts on great matches and meanwihle Rey Mysterio gets destroyed before even having his first title defense and Sheamus doesn't even defend his title at all!

[Cewsh]

I'm glad you like TNA. Seriously, I am.

But your opinions on WWE are completely meaningless.

[Defrost]

Big Dave says Paul is in New York. Unlikely to go without deal in place. TNA being stupid like usual promised a surprise. They had a Tommy Dreamer level guy as the backup. Since they are stupid they think Tommy Dreamer coming in was a big deal. That has also fallen through.

[Cewsh]

It has? He's on the show every week.

[Defrost]

Not Tommy Dreamer. Their surprise for tonight was supposed to be a guy on his level. And they are think Tommy Dreamer is a big deal. Because of stupidity

[Cewsh]

Ahhhhhhh. Gotcha.

[Federer]

It's not what I believe, it's a fact based on what I and many others feel about the two brands at the moment.


It's not what you beleive but it's what you feel so it becomes a fact???



No mather how popular their product is among the IWC, they'll need changes because it does'nt work with the general public.

The Heyman talks are'nt surprising, TNA invested lots of money in big names and the ratings still went down... They have to try something new.

I really hope the sign Heyman, if he makes it work we'll have a better competition to WWE and if he fail at least we'll stop hearing about him every time a wrestling company have problems.

[Jaymz]

It's not what you beleive but it's what you feel so it becomes a fact???



No mather how popular their product is among the IWC, they'll need changes because it does'nt work with the general public.

The Heyman talks are'nt surprising, TNA invested lots of money in big names and the ratings still went down... They have to try something new.

I really hope the sign Heyman, if he makes it work we'll have a better competition to WWE and if he fail at least we'll stop hearing about him every time a wrestling company have problems.

Trying to pull this back to where TNA is headed, I think you made a good point.

TNA spent lots of money in big names. Impact is generally a very good wrestling show, and their PPVs don't exactly stink. Would bringing in Heyman, and having him do what he wants change anything for the company?

What does TNA need to do to turn what's fundamentally a good, entertaining show, and turn it into ratings? And in this situation, comparing it to WWE in any way, shape or form is useless. WWE can churn out anything at all and still get ratings Dixie would die for, but it's not exactly indicative of the two products.

Does TNA advertise much in the US, or is it just put out there and not talked about, because I'm baffled as to why it's ratings doesn't budge after putting on a fantastic run of shows.

[Winkle van Tinkle]

Go back to the start of 1997 when Raw was excellent every week but consistently getting beat. Slowly but surely it won the audience over. It takes time.

[Defrost]

In what Alternate Universe do you guys live in where Impact is a good show that has good matches and angles that make sense?

[Winkle van Tinkle]

Oh bore off you morose cunt.

[Defrost]

Oh come on Dixie, was that necessary?

[Brian M.]

It's not what I believe, it's a fact based on what I and many others feel about the two brands at the moment.

Um, the only facts we have are ratings. And if you're defending TNA against WWE, you don't even want to come close to going there.

I also am sick of people thinking that it's not the actual TV product that is hurting TNA but lack of marketing and what not. They got a 1.7 rating for that January 4th Monday night show. People WANTED to see another wrestling company succeed. People KNEW about TNA and they still know about TNA. But that show sucked and most of the shows after that sucked with rare exceptions, and nobody wants to tune in to a show that sucks.

Admittadley I do not watch the shows weekly any more, but I try to catch it as much as I can so as to have an informed opinion when making posts such as these. Impact is getting a little better as far as matches go. There is usually at least one good match a week. But the storylines? Good god the storylines. Am I to believe that Jeff Jarrett is fighting for the honor of Eric Bischoff right now? Didn't Eric Bischoff basically try to get him fired like 4 months ago? That's just insulting, and as far as I know there's been no explanation for this. How about the fact that they are starting AN ECW ANGLE!?!?! IN 2010?!?!? That should tell you enough right there.


The matches, the promos and the stars of TNA are far superior to WWE at the moment. Last week we got to see Samoa Joe vs RVD, what did we see in WWE? Random rookies taking over the show while Michael Cole reads off his laptop?

"WWE needs to create new stars."

"...oh yeah well that was a cool angle but I didn't mean THOSE GUYS!"

Seriously, Wade Barrett has gotten over as a main eventer more quickly than just about any one else in recent memory. How is this somehow a bad thing?



Rob Van Dam is champion and is booked strong, puts on great matches and meanwihle Rey Mysterio gets destroyed before even having his first title defense and Sheamus doesn't even defend his title at all!

Sheamus won his title three weeks ago and has already defended it once since then...

[Cewsh]

And the champion getting beaten up to establish a top contender is wrestling 101.

Also, Rob Van Dam has, in the last two months, had two of the worst main event title matches in recent memory.

[Twiz131]

Cena does not know what wrestling is, neither does his fans. Also, speaking of dream matches.. sting vs mick foley, yeah.. that happen but no one saw it.

[Cewsh]

Cena does not know what wrestling is, neither does his fans. Also, speaking of dream matches.. sting vs mick foley, yeah.. that happen but no one saw it.

Out of curiousity, who would you say is currently a great wrestler?

[Twiz131]

I don't like many in wwe, but Randy orton is pretty damn good when it comes to personality, ability. Cena does a fireman carry.. I'm not just hating on cena to jump on the band wagon I live in West Newbury, MA . Cena is a cool guy in person i suppose but I don't think he should be labled as a face of a company. I rarely watch wrestling any more due to the epic downfall and dull storylines and lack of energy during matches. I have always been a fan of guys like Samoe Joe, Rvd, Brock Lesnar, Randy orton, etc. Now it's your turn to flame me.

[Cewsh]

I'm not going to flame you. But he is the face of WWE. That isn't actually disputable.

What you told me there is that he's a bad wrestler because he does a fireman's carry. That isn't an explanation. I agree, though, that Orton is quite good.

[Hero!]

Cena does not know what wrestling is, neither does his fans. Also, speaking of dream matches.. sting vs mick foley, yeah.. that happen but no one saw it.

You do not know what wrestling is.

[Bill Casey]

Cena does a fireman carry..

Oh my god, you're right!
He does do a fireman's carry!

:eek::panic:

[jackielover144]

In what Alternate Universe do you guys live in where Impact is a good show that has good matches and angles that make sense?

I agree that Impact has a long way to go. The WWE isn't all that either...but TNA is still light years below where the WWE is in terms of entertaining programming.

A lot of the angles are stupid. Not going to lie. Chelsea vs. Ring. Getting hit by a car, sexual harrassment...Abyssamania...When Orlando Jordan was infatuated with Rob Terry...Somoa Joe being abducted and it not being explained and this whole new ECW thing seems like a desperate attempt to do something that would have been cool if TNA was around 15 years ago. And not to mention the WWE recently did the whole NXT invasion...I know TNA can't top that so it's going to be a long drawn out thing which I hope not.

But among all the madness there are bright spots like Anderson, RVD, MCMG, Kurt Angle, Jay Lethal, Joe, Styles, Doug Williams, and Desmond Wolfe that keep me watching as a fan of their in ring product.

[Brian M.]

Cena does not know what wrestling is, neither does his fans.

Actually John Cena "gets" wrestling probably better than anybody in the business right now. And that doesn't mean he is the best wrestler, or that he knows the most moves. But he knows how to get the most out of one look, or one simple "fireman's carry."

[Vandal]

But among all the madness there are bright spots like Anderson, RVD, MCMG, Kurt Angle, Jay Lethal, Joe, Styles, Doug Williams, and Desmond Wolfe that keep me watching as a fan of their in ring product.
This.

[Tom B. Stone]

According to F4Wonline.com, Dixie's teaser last month was likely going to lead to Heyman coming in. It looks like it's just a matter of time until he arrives but there are some big issues to deal with first. Apparently they wanted him at Victory Road for the ECW angle, but he's made it clear he'll not join TNA just to do that.

I suppose the big issue is what happens to the power Hogan and Bischoff have just now. The word is that TNA is under pressure to make improvements. With all the money TNA has spent in the last seven or eight months, they've made practically zero progress. The budget has increased but PPV buyrates haven't moved and ratings are currently lower than they were in the first few weeks of the year.

Hogan did say that if things didn't work for him in TNA, he'd leave. Of course he's not actually going to, but it may be time for Dixie to pull the plug, send Hogan and Bischoff packing, and let Heyman take over.

[Defrost]

According to Dave that ECW stable was brought about because of the results of a focus group showing people had fond memories of ECW. The focus group was put together in Philadelphia.

[Vandal]

According to Dave that ECW stable was brought about because of the results of a focus group showing people had fond memories of ECW. The focus group was put together in Philadelphia.
Makes sense then.

Dixie still needs to get rid of Hogan and Bischoff. Dixie can keep Flair around.

[LarryLuv]

According to F4Wonline.com, Dixie's teaser last month was likely going to lead to Heyman coming in. It looks like it's just a matter of time until he arrives but there are some big issues to deal with first. Apparently they wanted him at Victory Road for the ECW angle, but he's made it clear he'll not join TNA just to do that.

I suppose the big issue is what happens to the power Hogan and Bischoff have just now. The word is that TNA is under pressure to make improvements. With all the money TNA has spent in the last seven or eight months, they've made practically zero progress. The budget has increased but PPV buyrates haven't moved and ratings are currently lower than they were in the first few weeks of the year.

Hogan did say that if things didn't work for him in TNA, he'd leave. Of course he's not actually going to, but it may be time for Dixie to pull the plug, send Hogan and Bischoff packing, and let Heyman take over.

She'd have to give up a lot for Heyman to join TNA...I wonder if she would even consider his demands.

[Dubya]

angle spoiler
Foley is leading the ECW guys this week on impact

[Tom B. Stone]

But Dixie invited them. Not much of an invasion.

[Vandal]

But Dixie invited them. Not much of an invasion.
Thats her way of getting rid of Hogan and Bischoff...:blah:

I would love to see an extreme beat down on Hogan and Bischoff!:yes:

[Tom B. Stone]

Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff were not at Victory Road. The word is that Hogan is still recovering from recent back surgery, but some are wondering if this is his way to distance himself from TNA when Heyman arrives.

Bischoff had said in advance that he was taking a few days off, but he may be staying away to make a point to Dixie about the Heyman plans.

The deal for Heyman to come in is much closer than a few days ago, but he's choosing to sit it out and wait for the right offer. It's possible he's already signed but it's being kept under wraps.

Source: Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com.

[Cewsh]

May, may, possible.

So nobody knows anything and mountains out of molehills and all that.

[jackielover144]

From JR's blog on Paul Heyman:

"My long time friend and former business associate Paul Heyman has been Googled to oblivion the past few days as he has been the source of endless, sensationalistic, some planted, rumors regarding his alleged, pending return to pro wrestling. Does Paul really want a 'future' in wrestling? I will believe it when I see it but if Paul Heyman is back in the game and is in a role where he likes, the game will get more interesting."

If these rumors are just planted by TNA then this wouldn't be the first time. Remember when Hogan said he was in talks with Torrie Wilson (Which she shot down immediately) and Bill Goldberg (Who said that was BS). I don't know sometimes this company cracks me up with that stuff. Remember they were going to the airport to pick up a big name on tv and then u-turned and completely forgot its almost as if these are just desperate tactics to make their viewers to be on their toes for these surprises but when they don't happen nothing is ever said because they never went on record, hence thats why this guessing game goes on.

[JP]

I think it's going to happen and if it does it'll hopefully signal the end of the pointless and destructive obsession with 'beating' the WWE and concentrate on just building TNA.

[Tom B. Stone]

Dixie wants Heyman to lead the ECW invasion angle, but it's likely he would just scrap it as soon as he arrived. It seems he has some big ideas but reliving past glories isn't one of them.

[jackielover144]

Heyman made it clear in that video that the product was crap and that he was hoping they had a vision and plan to make some changes.

I guess he wasn't sure if the ECW invasion angle was the right vision to take and I'm not that sure either. I mean it sounds good on paper but if they start dusting these ECW guys off just for this angle it will be interesting to see where they go after the angle is over.

[JP]

But at least you know it'd be scrapped in a logical and entertaining way, as opposed to just never, ever being mentioned again if it were dropped now.

[jackielover144]

True they have that tendency. TNA makes it seem like you were dreaming their bad storylines such as the abduction...or since Bichoff was recently asked about this, they would just package it apart of the ECW angle and say they abducted him too lol.

[Vice]

TNA makes it seem like you were dreaming their bad storylines such as the abduction....


Are you talking about Joe?

[jackielover144]

Are you talking about Joe?

Yeah...I'm still trying to figure out who abducted him.

It wasn't their worst storyline all together not as bad as the Chelsea vs. Ring thing and some of the other stuff they have presented but its poorly executed in my opinion for him to be back all this time and it never been explained.

[Cewsh]

The ECW guys abducted him. The storyline isn't over yet.

[Tom B. Stone]

May, may, possible.

So nobody knows anything and mountains out of molehills and all that.

Welcome to the internet. I hope you enjoy your time here.

[Cewsh]

You speak as though people poking holes in it is a given.

And yet tommorrow half the site will think of it as fact.

[Vice]

The Joe thing might not actually be over. I mean, he was the guy that said "they" abducted him and it looked kinda like the ECW guys doing it. Then nothing happened for a while until Sting mentioned "they". Then nothing happened for a while until Abyss and some other people started mentioning "they" much more frequently. And now things seem to be coming together.

Now if Joe and/or Sting have zero interaction with "they" when "they" appear and go crazy, then it'll be pretty stupid. But TNA is actually fairly good at foreshadowing. It's to the point where it almost always backfires for most people, like yourself (and I don't mean that in a bad way), where there's so much time in between things that you call it a day and write it off as bullshit. I totally understand that and sometimes I'm in the same boat. But then every now and then TNA will fuck me sideways with something and I wonder how that could possibly make sense. Then I put all the pieces together and realize that it's been brewing for like an entire year and I'm blown away.

A lot of their storylines get crapped on because most don't actually let them unfold at all before tearing them to shreds. Like Abyss and the ring. Fucking stupid, but everyone was like "LOL @magic powers!!!!! WORST STORYLINE EVER!!!", but then a few weeks later Abyss said he knew it didn't give him powers, just confidence. To me, that makes sense. Still a storyline I'd rather not have had to sit through, but you really can't judge TNA's storylines from the beginning because you never quite know exactly what's going to happen. Sure they're rarely good, but they are not extremely obvious from the get-go, which makes you have to think about what's going on.

Edit: Cewsh beat me to the Joe thing.

[jackielover144]

The ECW guys abducted him. The storyline isn't over yet.

Yeah I see it coming already :lol:

[Kure]

I would be very encouraged if Heyman didn't want to do an ECW Invasion. It didn't work out that well for WWE, and I don't think that many people really want to see it. Honestly, would you rather see ECW invage, or would you rather see what Paul Heyman can come up with in the TNA roster that hasn't been done before?

[Vice]

I would actually like to see Heyman come back and rally the troops against the ECW guys, if he were to get involved as an on-screen character. There could be a lot of great "shoot" stuff thrown in there about how they need to let things die, etc.

But if he is just doing writing and stuff, then I'd rather no ECW stuff.

[Tom B. Stone]

I would be very encouraged if Heyman didn't want to do an ECW Invasion. It didn't work out that well for WWE

Actually, I thought it worked out very well... in March 1997, anyway.

[Cewsh]

Actually, it was pretty damn successful for WWE three times from where I sit.

[jackielover144]

The Joe thing might not actually be over. I mean, he was the guy that said "they" abducted him and it looked kinda like the ECW guys doing it. Then nothing happened for a while until Sting mentioned "they". Then nothing happened for a while until Abyss and some other people started mentioning "they" much more frequently. And now things seem to be coming together.

Now if Joe and/or Sting have zero interaction with "they" when "they" appear and go crazy, then it'll be pretty stupid. But TNA is actually fairly good at foreshadowing. It's to the point where it almost always backfires for most people, like yourself (and I don't mean that in a bad way), where there's so much time in between things that you call it a day and write it off as bullshit. I totally understand that and sometimes I'm in the same boat. But then every now and then TNA will fuck me sideways with something and I wonder how that could possibly make sense. Then I put all the pieces together and realize that it's been brewing for like an entire year and I'm blown away.

A lot of their storylines get crapped on because most don't actually let them unfold at all before tearing them to shreds. Like Abyss and the ring. Fucking stupid, but everyone was like "LOL @magic powers!!!!! WORST STORYLINE EVER!!!", but then a few weeks later Abyss said he knew it didn't give him powers, just confidence. To me, that makes sense. Still a storyline I'd rather not have had to sit through, but you really can't judge TNA's storylines from the beginning because you never quite know exactly what's going to happen. Sure they're rarely good, but they are not extremely obvious from the get-go, which makes you have to think about what's going on.

Edit: Cewsh beat me to the Joe thing.

The ends vs. the means I get that but its kind of insulting to sit through magical rings and things like that just for the pay off of Abyss gaining confidence. I know confidence is important but there are other ways they could have went about it and made it logical from a veiwing standpoint. They turn off a lot of people with silly things.

Some may want to sit through a storyline like that and thats fine but if it looks as stupid and silly right off the bat chances are it is and then it ends up being something else later. It's just a grueling process watching many storylines unfold to have no pay off...the ratings still be the same and the buy rates still be down. And I don't know if thats because people aren't interested or if its because of the writing. I am a fan of the in ring work the storylines need a lot of work.

Even this ECW thing. They are already ten years too late with this storyline. I wonder has it ever dawned on TNA management that they are trying to establish their brand and they will have fans chanting ECW! ECW! ECW! An already established brand. It's just little things like that that bother me about this product but it's secondary because I do value a lot of the wrestling done in the ring.

[Kure]

Meh, maybe I am just jaded over the whole WCW/ECW Invasion because I was a WCW mark and thought they were made to look horrible.

I actually did like the first invasion, I just don't know if anyone outside of ECW cared.

[Tom B. Stone]

It will not help that WWE's lawyers will be watching to ensure there isn't any copyright infringement.

[Kure]

It will not help that WWE's lawyers will be watching to ensure there isn't any copyright infringement.

I guess we know where the 7500 ppv buys came from.

[Cewsh]

Meh, maybe I am just jaded over the whole WCW/ECW Invasion because I was a WCW mark and thought they were made to look horrible.

I hear you.

Blame WCW, not WWE. They fucked themselves AND the Invasion angle.

[jackielover144]

I would be very encouraged if Heyman didn't want to do an ECW Invasion. It didn't work out that well for WWE, and I don't think that many people really want to see it. Honestly, would you rather see ECW invage, or would you rather see what Paul Heyman can come up with in the TNA roster that hasn't been done before?

This. TNA needs to establish TNA as a brand. They are going to have fans chanting ECW! ECW! ECW! with this being the main storyline for upcoming months. How are they establishing TNA when you have a established brand from the past being cheered for? In the past during hardcore matches the chants would always be TNA! TNA! TNA! Now the hardcore nature is going to automatically be associated with ECW and TNA will have made no progress in branding itself. This is pretty much common sense and I don't understand why powers that be in TNA don't see this. You want to establish a brand and yet you have another brand come in an automatically overshadow you. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Kure]

I hear you.

Blame WCW, not WWE. They fucked themselves AND the Invasion angle.

I do blame WCW, in part. They were so weak by the end and had failed to push so many people that what was left of the roster for the invasion was pretty minor. My biggest gripe was the way WWE used Booker T and DDP initially. They were really two of the biggest WCW-produced names that came over intially.

To their credit, WWE eventually used Booker a lot better than I thought they would, but at one time, DDP was one of the most over characters in the business. To have him delegated to stalking Sarah Calloway was not exactly my idea of a good gimmick.

Unfortunately WCW had attempted to build itself around a whole bunch of guys that had no motivation to go to WWE as part of the invasion. But, I was very disappointed in how certain people were buried.

I'm a big believer that you are only as strong as your opponent. The whole angle suffered because WCW weren't made to be strong opponents. What would have been the harm in making them credible threats?

Maybe it is unfair to assume this, but I felt McMahon buried those guys out of some sort of ego trip.

[Cewsh]

Lots of people do think that. I'm not one of them, but it wouldn't be completely unrealistic I think.

But I suspect there is much more to it, especially in DDP's case. Even he said his depush was mostly because he couldn't get used to the WWE style of bumping, and it was so bad Vince thought he couldn't wrestle.

[Tom B. Stone]

There isn't even any point in blaming WWE for not signing Kevin Nash, Goldberg, Ric Flair, etc.

They were all signed to very cushy deals with AOL Time Warner (not WCW) and weren't in a hurry to give up guaranteed money for doing sod all.

Goldberg was making about $40,000 a week and didn't even have to leave his house.

[Cewsh]

Exactly. WCW basically fucked WWE over unknowingly for years into the future.

[Kure]

There isn't even any point in blaming WWE for not signing Kevin Nash, Goldberg, Ric Flair, etc.

Nah, I don't blame them for any of that. I blame Time Warner for giving them those contracts to begin with. The sad part is that all the guys that would have made for a decent WCW invasion, minus Sting, ended up in WWE at some point in the future. All the pieces ended up there, just at the wrong times.

[Vice]

The ends vs. the means I get that but its kind of insulting to sit through magical rings and things like that just for the pay off of Abyss gaining confidence. I know confidence is important but there are other ways they could have went about it and made it logical from a veiwing standpoint. They turn off a lot of people with silly things.

Some may want to sit through a storyline like that and thats fine but if it looks as stupid and silly right off the bat chances are it is and then it ends up being something else later. It's just a grueling process watching many storylines unfold to have no pay off...the ratings still be the same and the buy rates still be down. And I don't know if thats because people aren't interested or if its because of the writing. I am a fan of the in ring work the storylines need a lot of work.

Even this ECW thing. They are already ten years too late with this storyline. I wonder has it ever dawned on TNA management that they are trying to establish their brand and they will have fans chanting ECW! ECW! ECW! An already established brand. It's just little things like that that bother me about this product but it's secondary because I do value a lot of the wrestling done in the ring.

TNA does a lot of stupid things, but they also do a lot of great things. I think what it comes down to is how most people see them as wrestling companies doing the same thing, and TNA just failing. But it is anything but.

How I see it, they are incredibly different. Sure they are both wrestling companies, but the feels of the show and how they write their shows is night and day from WWE which is what everyone compares them to.

When WWE starts a typical angle, you can basically attach a generic synopsis onto it, and it will play out like every other angle just like it will play out. It's like a Steven Seagal movie. You know that Steven Seagal is going to beat up the bad guys, and the only difference is whether it's on a train, plane or boat, which evil force he is fighting and which puns he can make regarding the location and nationality. There's nothing wrong with that, and I watch a number of shows like that, but to me it is fairly boring and the definition of playing it safe. The focus, to me, isn't on the people involved so much as it is simply arriving at point B from point A. Put a different actor in that script and you will still have basically the same movie.

With TNA, it's never as obvious. There are lots of wacky twists and turns, and much more of the focus is not on where exactly point B is, but what our hero or villain has to go through to get there and how it effects them. Change the person involved and the story would change quite a bit. To me it is much more interesting. Sure there's some ridiculous nonsense and some really low lows, but there are also some great highs.

I think people just need to realize the differences in how they're booked and judge them based on their own merits. How people judge TNA now, it reminds me of those people that shit on a dramatic movie, and when you ask why they respond with "I didn't think it was very funny". Did you not know it was a DRAMA?

Actually, a good example might be the movie Shoot 'Em Up. I know a bajillion people that thought it was a horrible movie because all the action scenes were overblown, how there was no real plot and that everything was just ridiculous. The movie is a SPOOF. It is a COMEDY that makes fun of how nonsensical and stupid action movies have become. Of course you're going to think it's the worst movie you've ever seen if you take it seriously. That's not the point.

Step one is always knowing what you're getting into. They are two extremely different companies that just happen to be in the same business.

And yes, I know I went fairly off topic and into a general rant, but it's something I needed to get off my chest.


I'm a big believer that you are only as strong as your opponent. The whole angle suffered because WCW weren't made to be strong opponents. What would have been the harm in making them credible threats?

Exactly. Like when ROH was invaded by CZW. At the time, ROH had some of the best wrestlers in the world, and one hell of a roster of talent. CZW? Gya ha ha ha ha. No comparison. But CZW was made to look like a very credible threat and the whole thing was amazing. Their main guy, Chris Hero, was a very credible talent that everyone knew, but the people below him were miserable little shitfucks for the most part. DDP or Booker could have easily been the big guy(s), I'd say.

Or, shit, look at the Nexus angle in WWE. Those are a handful of ROOKIES that were in a wrestling contest to see who gets signed and a lot of them are very poor and unrefined, and wouldn't make it too far in WWE on their own. But put them together and it's strength in numbers. WCW could have done that fairly easily. One on one they could be taken down, but when it's 10 on 2, they could look like beasts.

[Cewsh]

Very good points, Vicey.

If you're going to hate on TNA, hate on them for not living up to their own standards. Not WWE's.

[jackielover144]

I never want them nor do I expect them (TNA) to be WWE. Never said that. I would like for things to make sense and if I am alone in that I am. It's just my opinion. The storylines turn me off. To me there is a better way to get to the point of gaining confidence than have someone talk about a magical ring for months upon months. I get TNA has always had silly storylines and lack of consistency issues but at what time do they as a team say lets try to make some sense of this or know where we are going before we do something. In my opinion it would make a difference on a tv product and they would do a lot better than they are right now. This is something that the writers in the WWE can't do either. I don't like the silly GM storyline either but this isn't the thread for my criticism of the WWE.

As I mentioned, I am a fan of the guys in TNA that go out there and work great matches like Angle, Anderson, Doug Williams, Kaz, RVD, AJ Styles and Somoa Joe so thats why I watched.

[Defrost]

Eric Bischoff said on his facebook page that Russo has the next four months of TV planned out

[Tom B. Stone]

Eric Bischoff said on his facebook page that Russo has the next four months of TV planned out

I doubt that very much but it may be a subtle message to let Heyman know they don't need him arriving and messing up their plans.

[Zacharie]

An ECW angle would have been cool like 6 years ago when WWE didn't do it. Now I don't see what all the fuss is about. Do people really care if Raven and Dreamer are sitting in the audience? I don't, they're old and jobbed to people like Bob Holly on Heat. These guys had their peak years, but now it's over. Put this ECW shit to rest already. Paul's not even there to run it properly, it's fuckin' Hogan of all people. They should just focus all this attention on making an interesting Flair group, something they're less likely to screw up.

[Kure]

Eric Bischoff said on his facebook page that Russo has the next four months of TV planned out

Not exactly a great reason to keep the plans even if it is true. The last four months have garnered such huge ratings and ppv buys.

Believe it or not, people still do care about ECW. No one cares that anyone jobbed to Bob Holly on Heat. If you looked at the reaction the first couple of times that they came out, obviously the live audience cares. I am just not in favor of thinking an ECW invasion is the answer to making TNA viable.

[defusion]

I don't see the problem with it for an undercard storyline, but if TNA management think it is going to get them loads more ratings they are being a bit naive. Personally, I couldn't care less about ratings as long as what I am viewing is entertaining and for me this could be ok for a month or two as long as it doesn't take over and become the most important thing on the show.

[jackielover144]

Not exactly a great reason to keep the plans even if it is true. The last four months have garnered such huge ratings and ppv buys.

Believe it or not, people still do care about ECW. No one cares that anyone jobbed to Bob Holly on Heat. If you looked at the reaction the first couple of times that they came out, obviously the live audience cares. I am just not in favor of thinking an ECW invasion is the answer to making TNA viable.

That TNA audience is trained to pop for anything. They will cheer for anyone and anything it doesn't matter.

I agree though that an ECW invasion isn't going to make TNA viable. It actually hurts them more than it helps them when fans are chanting ECW as opposed to TNA. Before ECW came if something was hardcore you would get the TNA chants. TNA needs to be branded something desperately and you can't brand it hardcore when your doing hardcore matches and an invasion centered around being hardcore. What's next Tommy Dreamer, Raven and Stevie Richards in the top 10 ratings :lol:

[Cewsh]

That TNA audience is trained to pop for anything. They will cheer for anyone and anything it doesn't matter.

Except Abyss.

[Motherboy]

Not exactly a great reason to keep the plans even if it is true. The last four months have garnered such huge ratings and ppv buys.

The last four months have made the company look completely different, and better, than it ever had before. Why would we give a shit about ratings? TNA has been producing great television and elevating young talent for the four months you're, for some godforsaken reason, complaining about.

And if it's a case of "I complained because Vince Russo's booking isn't generating money," that's in no way Russo's department. That's brand awareness, which would be covered by TNA's non-existent marketing team.

[Kure]

If it doesn't draw ratings and pay per view buys, it will eventually be shut down. That is why you should give a shit. If no one watches, it's dead. Then it will be just WWE again. This is capitalism. If it doesn't eventually start making money, Panda Energy will just shoot it in the head and leave it for dead.

They brought in people they thought would draw and they haven't. They spent a bunch of money. Hogan, Flair, Foley, etc., haven't made a difference. How many more efforts like that do they have left in them before they run out of patience and/or money they are willing to throw away?

[Winkle van Tinkle]

But we don't know what they are making or losing.

I'm not going to sit there and worry about them giving away PPV matches on free TV. Thats not my problem.

We don't know their revenue streams, their advertising set-up, and their intake from an overseas market. Their income isn't soley based on "PPV and Ratings".

Hell, we dont even know how much they are paying the likes of Hardy, RVD, Flair etc etc. It's all just speculation.

[Tom B. Stone]

Well people like Hogan, Flair, RVD and Foley are all easily on six figures.

They're making buttons from their PPVs and the majority of house shows are poorly attended. So they're reliant on merchandising, money from Spike TV and international deals. I'm sure there has to be a profit of some kind, somewhere, or the Carters would have pulled the plug by now. But the word is that they're under pressure to increase their revenue.

[Winkle van Tinkle]

But thats all assumtpions, right?

[Cewsh]

100%. Nothing but guesswork.

[Tom B. Stone]

Okay, we don't actually know what anyone in TNA is being paid. But those guys must be making big bucks. Well, compared to the guys on the lower card.

I'm not making assumptions about their house show attendance; it's a fact that they're poorly attended. We're hearing from cable industry (not wrestling industry) sources that their PPV buys are bad.

So I'm not going to say that everything I posted was an assumption. The majority of it was, and the rest was based on a collection of news items and rumours (which can't ALL be fabricated).

[Zyphlin]

Well people like Hogan, Flair, RVD and Foley are all easily on six figures.

They're making buttons from their PPVs and the majority of house shows are poorly attended. So they're reliant on merchandising, money from Spike TV and international deals. I'm sure there has to be a profit of some kind, somewhere, or the Carters would have pulled the plug by now. But the word is that they're under pressure to increase their revenue.

The sad thing is....

I think if they dumped the following:

Hogan, Flair, Foley, Sting, 3D if they're making big bucks, Taz if he's making big bucks, and Jeff Hardy and still pull the same PPV buys and TV ratings they're pulling right now.

The only "big" name guys I'd still keep would be RVD and Angle. And for RVD I'd try to go a little lower than he may want based on the upper hand in knowing he doesn't want to go to the WWE because he likes the smaller schedule of TNA.

IF money was actually an issue I think if TNA did three things:

1. Did 8 sunday TV "free" super events and 4 yearly PPV's
2. Got rid of a lot of the high priced fluff such as Hogan and company
3. Agreed with Heyman's demands, with the condition that the financial decisions are not handled by him. IE he can be in charge of HOW to market the company, but he doesn't get to make the budget he has to work with

They could potentially put themselves in the black while giving themselves at the worst the same level of ratings and at best an equal amount of chance to increase ratings for less.

At this point TNA is established as a brand. Big names aren't going to draw people in that much. If its going to grow its going to grow based on being an entertaining and interesting product. Once it hits a 2.0 regularly or maybe a 3.0 then you may see a big name coming in causing a bump in the ratings because the base viewership is large enough to make word of mouth worth while.

[Tom B. Stone]

From what I can gather, Heyman isn't wanting financial control. I think he'd like to hire and fire but doesn't want to control the whole budget.

[nz19]

New guys no longer have enough time on the show to make that much of a difference, it looks to me very clear that TNA is looking at constant progress and improvement in the overall show which is going to get them moving forward.

One example is the pure energy of the show - the crowd response and the enthusiasm of the wrestlers is what keeps the overall show strong.

I watch TNA weekly without the wonder of what the ratings are going to be, or how much the wrestlers are being paid, that's got nothing to do with the quality of the show because despite TNA supposedly suffering in the ratings, the crowds continue to be high energy, and TNA goes overseas like to the UK and gets sell out crowds and really shows nothing close to hurting as a product, on the contrary they are only getting better

[Cewsh]

Yet TNA can't go anywhere in AMERICA and draw a crowd.

[Zyphlin]

Which apparently goes back to Heyman's issues with its inability to market itself and branding.

Which to me is all the more reason to dump the big guys because they're not really bringing in buys it seems on PPV and they're often not bothering with those house shows. So the house shows aren't even having some of the top guys you're seeing on TV anyways.

[GreenLanturn]

That TNA audience is trained to pop for anything. They will cheer for anyone and anything it doesn't matter.

I agree though that an ECW invasion isn't going to make TNA viable. It actually hurts them more than it helps them when fans are chanting ECW as opposed to TNA. Before ECW came if something was hardcore you would get the TNA chants. TNA needs to be branded something desperately and you can't brand it hardcore when your doing hardcore matches and an invasion centered around being hardcore. What's next Tommy Dreamer, Raven and Stevie Richards in the top 10 ratings :lol:

Agreed on all point except your last one. Raven is a former TNA heavyweight champion. He is getting older but he can still put on great matches when called upon. I would rather see him leading the group than Dreamer honestly. Raven has won big belts with many promotions besides ECW and is completely legit IMO.

[Cewsh]

Please name the last great Raven match.

[Vice]

Which apparently goes back to Heyman's issues with its inability to market itself and branding.

Which to me is all the more reason to dump the big guys because they're not really bringing in buys it seems on PPV and they're often not bothering with those house shows. So the house shows aren't even having some of the top guys you're seeing on TV anyways.

Well, TNA doesn't have complete control over their roster. There have been numerous reports about SpikeTV wanting to push Sting and hiring/pushing guys from the Monday night wars/boom period.

Whether it's 100% true or not, I don't know, but as always it is something to consider. If TNA had complete control, it would be a very, very different place.

[Cewsh]

Hell, TNA doesn't even employ Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair.

[Tempest]

I think that they'd still have a vast chunk of them to be honest.

[Tom B. Stone]

Hell, TNA doesn't even employ Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair.

I have to admit, both of them were very smart when negotiating their deals. As far as I know, even if Heyman comes in, Panda has to keep paying Hogan.

I'm sure I read that Hogan and Bischoff only signed one-year deals. Bischoff is posting on Facebook that he's just been enjoying time with family and friends, obviously downplaying any talk of problems between himself and TNA.

[Kure]

They were smart, but I am not sure how smart Panda Energy was. That type of contract was part of the problem when WCW folded. Guys sitting at home making loads of money for doing nothing. Smart by the wrestlers, not good business though.

[Kure]

Please name the last great Raven match.

He hasn't had any. He doesn't have many really bad matches either. His matches are almost all the same. Same heat, same fire, same finish. The only thing that mixes them up is the use of weapons. I like Raven the character, and I think he's a smart guy, but his matches are pretty forumla-driven anymore. Hardcore just doesn't shock people the way it once did.

[Tom B. Stone]

They were smart, but I am not sure how smart Panda Energy was. That type of contract was part of the problem when WCW folded. Guys sitting at home making loads of money for doing nothing. Smart by the wrestlers, not good business though.

Absolutely. Agreed 100%.

For all the big hoopla about him coming in and making big changes, Hogan was obviously in a position of control during negotiations.

I'm not sure how Flair got the same cushy deal. I mean, sure, he is Ric Flair. But he wasn't joining TNA in the same way as Hogan and it seems he needs the money - so you'd think the company would have the hold over him.

[Bill Casey]

WCW didn't go under because of one year contracts...

[nz19]

The main difference here is that Ted Turner isn't writing the checks anymore and despite everyone ranting about TNA losing money and not drawing a crowd in the US, they continue to run full blast and bring in new talent regularly.

As far as Hogan - the whole idea behind him coming in was to start something fresh with TNA which he did and in my view it is bringing results because the product is better, but simply not showing up in the ratings.

As for Flair, it may have to do with him influencing guys backstage to work harder and obviously his history helps that and based on the fact that he puts over the young guys like Jay Lethal and forms new stables allowing TNA to create merchandise off of it among other things.

As for the ECW guys, they should be there to stir up controversy but nothing more because TNA has more than enough original guys that continue to get the job done every week

[Sphere]

Absolutely. Agreed 100%.

For all the big hoopla about him coming in and making big changes, Hogan was obviously in a position of control during negotiations.

I'm not sure how Flair got the same cushy deal. I mean, sure, he is Ric Flair. But he wasn't joining TNA in the same way as Hogan and it seems he needs the money - so you'd think the company would have the hold over him.

Flair must have came in with Hogan. I remember reading that Ric signed some yearly deal with Hogan and it was based around that Hulkamaina tour in Australia. I guess Hogan helped Flair out with a job at TNA cause the Hulkamania tour was like only 3 shows.

[Kure]

WCW didn't go under because of one year contracts...

Not what I meant at all. I was simply saying that it was a bad business decision because there was a large amount of money going out to people who were not doing anything. It also hurt the viability of the WCW brand when WWE bought it because the major stars were not part of the deal.

[GreenLanturn]

Please name the last great Raven match.

He had an amazing feud with CM Punk in ROH and his work with AJ and Abyss produced some great matches as well.

[Vice]

So.. half a decade ago.

[Cewsh]

Point proven.

[takerson]

"Half a Decade" sounds so much longer than "5 years". :lol:

[Cewsh]

Two good feuds in 10 years is exactly as many as Chyna in the same span.

Legendary workrate.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Well in those 5 years he's probably had 3 feuds. I loved his stuff with Serotonin too.

[mnugent2000]

This is from his 2008 interview with The Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/heyman/article807442.ece#ixzz0sxnwxwDt)


I haven't watched TNA in a few weeks but last I checked that still applied. The X-Division was the whole reason I started watching TNA and with it getting less and less time every week I'm less inclined to watch.

cant agree more with the quote or ur sentiment

[mnugent2000]

Paul has one of the greatest minds in the business...he has great foresight and knows how to make the product relevant CULTURALLY, outside of the wrestling bubble...something no product really has today, as Paul made reference to in the Alvarez interview on the first page of the threat post-Lesnar fight. What he said is true, there isn't any culturally significant figure in wrestling outside of Cena and he isn't on the level of Hogan, the nWo, Goldberg, the Rock, Stone Cold, etc. Nor is there a culturally significant theme in wrestling, whether its the super human - larger than life cartoon that was the 80's or the Hardcore / Heyman inspired "Attitude Era" of the mid-late 90's.

With all that said, I don't blame Paul one iota for being very hesitant about getting back into wrestling or even back into a position of high pressure...it is why he didn't jump on the Strikeforce deal with Scott Coker, the position just isn't the "perfect" opportunity. He really really respects Dana White...he wants to be Dana White, and he wants Dana's situation...he wants a company that gives him not just a job, but gives him a reason to get out of bed and give it his all...where his bottom line figure, the money he will "give to his kids" is determined...like what happened with ECW...it was his baby and the money he took home was determined by how good he did. If not, there just isn't a reason for him to go to work and be miserable and away from his kids.

I hope Dixie gives in...if she does, they have someone who has his shit together in regards to the business...he is someone that wants to have support from a network, and a financial backing and unconditional support for him...he wants Dana's situation...I don't blame him, Dana's got a cushy gig at this point.

As for TNA...they need to do exactly what Paul said...get a direction (consistent direction) and be able to market it to make people give a fuck about this good direction...

With the UFC and MMA being such a force culturally, wrestling is a back burner thing right now...it is tough to break into that Wrestling market share regardless, but even tougher to with MMA being so hot right now.

reading thru the thread and this is another fine post. TNA is, as vince might say, 'the drizzling shits' right now. thanks for the quote jericho:P

[mnugent2000]

Yep, definitely is, and everybody everywhere is to blame.

Except me. :)

lol great post...very chris jericho. i miss that canadian bas...ahem...wrestler

[mth]

No need to make three post in a row, those could all have been combined. There's a multi-quote function as well as an edit function.

[mnugent2000]

oops sorry - relative newbie

[Cewsh]

Hey, take it easy, math. Triple posts should be exempt if they're used to rightfully praise me. :D

[mth]

Yeah, but praising Bert, as well? I dunno....

[virms]

No doubt

[virms]

Praising bert is just really silly.

[virms]

If you ask me.

[Twiz131]

You do not know what wrestling is.

Years later, and it seems I was right about Cena...

[Matthew]

man to come back years later to still be wrong about something

how bad is that

[McBain]

I'm wondering what specific thing is telling him that he's factually correct.

[Version 6]

Yeah, I really don't understand how anything that has happened since that post has proved your subjective opinion to be anything other than your subjective opinion.

What a strange bump.

[Cewsh]

Cena does not know what wrestling is, neither does his fans. Also, speaking of dream matches.. sting vs mick foley, yeah.. that happen but no one saw it.


I don't like many in wwe, but Randy orton is pretty damn good when it comes to personality, ability. Cena does a fireman carry.. I'm not just hating on cena to jump on the band wagon I live in West Newbury, MA . Cena is a cool guy in person i suppose but I don't think he should be labled as a face of a company. I rarely watch wrestling any more due to the epic downfall and dull storylines and lack of energy during matches. I have always been a fan of guys like Samoe Joe, Rvd, Brock Lesnar, Randy orton, etc. Now it's your turn to flame me.



Years later, and it seems I was right about Cena...

Here are his previous posts in this thread.

He's from West Newbury, you guys. He knows the deal.

[McBain]

He's right you know. Cena does do a fireman's carry.

[Bill Casey]

If there's one thing Cena's known for, it's a lack of energy...
I remember watching a house show tables match between Cena and Ryback, and Cena going shoulder first into some steel steps at full speed and thinking "man, this guy is just phoning it in"

The crowd would have been dead too if they weren't so busy giving by far the largest reaction of the night on a card that featured The Miz's return and Team Hell No! and Chris Jericho vs. The Shield...

Come on, he does a wrestling move, ffs...
He picks up four hundred pound guys on his shoulders, flips them around and slams them...
Is that supposed to impress me?

Do a jumpy cutter thingy or a big splash off the top rope. That's way better for some reason...

[MikeHunt]

Here are his previous posts in this thread.

He's from West Newbury, you guys. He knows the deal.

Just like you know the deal from interviewing wrestlers who have abused steroids and pulled trees out the ground.

YOU KNOW THE DEALLLLLLLLLLLL!

[Cewsh]

That was a pretty weak effort for you, Mike.

[MikeHunt]

I'm losing interest in you. Mainly cause you aren't around enough. Sort that out. Thanks.

[The Rogerer]

Just stick to Griffin, Mike. This isn't going to work out.

[Mark Hammer]

He's right you know. Cena does do a fireman's carry.

Exactly, and I can definitely see why Twiz131 hates him. Stupid fireman's carry.

[Peter Griffin]

Just stick to Griffin, Mike. This isn't going to work out.

:squint: