The Star Wars thread [Archive]

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 4:19 AM

Some bits of the recent conversation from the VIP Thread:

I've been seriously considering making a general Star Wars ramble thread. Don't know how much interest there would be, but I suspect OMG, Mike and I could keep it alive for a long time.

Not like one of the movie threads, something all encompassing. Movies, Clone Wars, EU, what should have been done and general rambling.

I would be very much into that. Can Episode II be off limits, though?

It's still something to discuss and dissect. At least to me it is. I don't like it, but there is some good stuff there. It's just saturated in CGI, with a poor script and helmed by a director that has no clue how to direct actors.

I just find that we (and others) end up talking about Star Wars in the wrong places and have to abandon the topic and not really expand on it. Like in the artists thread today. There's a lot I could have talked about and expanded on in that, but didn't want to wreck a music thread any further.

I think the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker, whose later incarnation would be the most menacing figure in cinematic history, as a whiny emo teenager was sacrilege. Yeah yeah, I understand it was intended to be a necessary phase of Yoda's prophetic path to the dark side quip from Episode I but the way it played out and the wooden acting of Hayden Christiensen made it unbearable and borderline embarrassing.

That's a major part of my main problem with the prequels. In the music thread I mentioned that they should have started with Obi-Wan as the master and Anakin as the padawan in Episode I. As some didn't seem to get what I meant, here's what I was saying:

The one thing we never saw in the prequels, the one thing they should have been about, was the noble Jedi that Anakin was. Not a drippy nose kid, an angst ridden teen or a paranoid wank of a husband. We should have seen the noble Jedi that was Obi Wan's friend. We never really saw the good in him and that's a shame. If we were made to like Anakin before his fall, it would add all the more impact to it.

By saying that Qui Jon shouldn't have been in it and that the series should have started with Obi Wan and Anakin, that means that Anakin would start out around Luke's age from A New Hope or Obi's from the start of Ep I. We'd then see their adventures together for two movies, where Anakin is a proper Jedi before his fall. As far as Yoda warning of training him, have Anakin tap into the darkside in a duel with Maul in Ep I to defeat him. That would be a huge red flag to the Jedi, presented properly, yet something that would be sympathetic to the audience. It would make sense for him to tap the dark side to save lives, even if it gave him an improper taste of power. Yoda wouldn't want to train his powers any further because of his failure and fear of him using his powers as such again, but Obi Wan would anyway.

This is why I'm thinking about a thread. ;)

We're supposed to get fucked by snow but I'm not sure when it'll come about, might be now but I can't be bothered to lift the shade and turn on a light to see.

It's an interesting scenario. My one qualm with it is that you throw out a key detail that gets overlooked because the prequels came out after the originals, that being Anakin's late start in jedi training which resulted in the development of feelings. The reason Anakin was so easily corrupted was his strong emotional connection with his mother and then after Padme. His willingness to betray the jedi order - his friends, his family - was rooted in his intense desire to save Padme. His passion betrays him and leads to his downfall, which is the story of Episodes I-III. E

pisodes IV-VI tell the story of redemption; redemption for the Skywalker family and the jedi order. Luke's late beginning of training under Obi-Wan and later Yoda is entirely reminiscent of his father's. In fact, in Empire it appears Luke is destined to go down the same path as both showed a clear lack of patience and priorities towards loved ones over perfecting the harnessing of the force. The revelation that Darth Vader is in fact Anakin Skywalker rather than his killer as Luke had been told brought about fierce emotions a jedi would dismiss and a slight sense of betrayal by his former teacher. These emotions would explode in the final showdown between father and son as the emperor attempted to bait the younger Skywalker to the dark side. But just as it seemed Luke would succumb to the same fate as his father, he defied the emperor and proclaimed himself a jedi (one of the best scenes in the trilogy, let's be honest). Luke was strong enough to resist the temptation and thus was able to vanquish Dark Vader and reconcile Anakin Skywalker to redeem himself. It is here that Luke shows the strength of the force he possessed and his unwillingness to be corrupted - the difference between he and his father.

Now if I read your post correctly, we would be void of this particular aspect were we to jump right into Anakin being Obi-Wan's padawan. The scenes where Anakin is tested by the council and Qui-Gon protests the decision to not train him are extremely important to both the character development of Anakin and Luke. Cutting those out would be like cutting out the prophet Elijah in Moby Dick.

Just because you don't show him as a little kid being recruited doesn't mean it didn't happen. Like Joker in TDK, we don't see where he came from, but he's there. It's easy to bring up his late start (much more believable to me if he's a little kid and Luke's age) in his flirting with the dark side. It's part of Yoda's reservation in further training in my head/scenario. He never got training against the dark side, which would be a huge part of his formulative training were recruited at a younger age. Yoda warns of training him after he uses the dark side and Obi Wan ignores the warning as there is good in him, he sees his potential, understands his use of the dark side in a certain scenario and, moreso, because he's his friend.

We didn't need prophecies, chosen ones or anything like that—that's just lazy writing.

I'm not necessarily saying it's required that he be a little kid, but I do think it's necessary to show how he started out. It is integral to the prequels to explicitly show that the roots of Anakin's demise were ever present. Something like that is too important to simply be alluded to, where as the origin of Joker's Glasgow Smile wasn't important in the slightest (though it made for nice dialogue when he'd bring up the various stories of its development).

As far as him being the chosen one and all that, yeah, I can see that being tossed without losing anything, except it was kind of the backbone of Anakin's developed resentment toward Obi Wan, as he felt Obi Wan didn't want to be overshadowed by Anakin's potential power. You could of course, tweak it and, rather than have him be the one to bring balance to the force, simply be a powerful jedi because of an astronomical medichlorian count.

If I had anything to do with it, midichlorians would have been a concept to die on the cutting room floor. The force never needed to, nor should it have been, explained. It had a religious aspect to it in the OT and that was lost in the prequels.

As far as how Anakin started out, I agree. Have it be his first mission or something at the start. Or have him be a great star pilot when that Obi Wan meets because, you know... Not some kid who randomly and accidently blows up a space station.

I will not defend how he blew up the entire blockade and effectively disabled thousands of battle droids in a ship he first saw 10 minutes earlier.

I do see your point with midichlorians and to be honest I never really considered how they changed the perception of the force; it was almost like a scientific explanation of it.

Second City Saint

December 9th, 2009, 4:22 AM

I was going to post this in the amusing facebook conversations thread in the asylum but it would've been out of place and under appreciated. I think it has a home here though.

http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1794889

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 4:26 AM

:lol:

The Veers and Han Solo ones are great.

Second City Saint

December 9th, 2009, 4:31 AM

The Wedge one's my personal fav

grimshaw

December 9th, 2009, 6:06 AM

At what point do midichlorians 'explain the force'? In what way do they remove the religious/spiritual feeling?

Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

That's the exposition of midichlorians. I don't like them, but I think the criticism levelled at them is for the wrong reasons. The explanation of midichlorians is no less mystical hocus-pocus than 'the force, its everywhere'. The problem with midichlorians is that there's nothing gained by having them there, it's just a plot device to talk about anakin's immaculate conception.

UNLIMITED POWERRR

One Man Gang

December 9th, 2009, 11:16 AM

MUSIC

Here are some music videos I made of either unreleased score by John Williams or unreleased cues added back into tracks. No complete recordings of the PT exists currently. The quality is as good as I could get it.

This is one is from ROTS and includes the original cue for when the ship takes off after Obi-Wan and Anakin say goodbye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIHI5aouffE

This one is self explanatory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faRoEdtlxvo&feature=related

This is a portion of the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan that hasn't been officially released on cd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WnlJMifs3w&feature=channel

This is when Palpatine reveals he's Darth Sidious to Anakin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdXIP7jhvMA&feature=channel

Another self explanatory piece. Its not the album version, but how Williams originally recorded it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMpd39-JPo4&feature=channel

This is as best an edit as can be made at this point of how the duel of Palpatine and Mace was supposed to sound. Note the apocalyptic sounding Emperors theme that was edited out of the film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v9I2P_G7zo&feature=channel

This is from TPM. Its near the start of the movie where the Jedi escape up until when they run into Jar Jar. Added back in some missing cues that weren't included in the ultimate edition soundtrack. Not perfect, but you take what you can get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW7Ty6ZOo3U&feature=channel

This is how the music was originally supposed to play out when Anakin races and defeats Sebulba. You heard part of it in AOTC, but don't be fooled. They took cut music from TPM and just pasted it all over AOTC. Also the second half of the piece was cut from the sebulba race and pasted over the battle of naboo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXzZoYgpBM4&feature=channel

This is the battle of naboo. Its not perfect and there are still pieces missing, but its a bit different than the ultimate edition as this is more how Williams originally composed it before massive edits took place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WyVs_L8z8E&feature=channel

Fro

December 9th, 2009, 11:20 AM

Alf

December 9th, 2009, 11:33 AM

The midi-chlorians thing just sapped the mystery of it. It was explained perfectly by Obi wan in the original trilogy... why did it need explaining further? It pissed me off so much.

The entire prequels just butt-fucked the series. The originals were actually very well cast, acted, the direction is brilliant, the concepts tight, the script a little hokey but still quite tight, the action was thrilling, there was drama. It had everything. The prequels were awfully cast, the plot was pretty shite through-out... argh... just thinking about how much they fucked them up makes me angry. They could have been amazing, but no... Lucas went an raped it.

I love the original lot. I grew up when they were being released, the toys were like crack for kids. They released the remastered versions on VHS when I was about 12. They released them one by one over a period of 6 months (one every two i think it was)... I saved like I have never saved before. Every saturday me and my dad would bop down to the supermarket, he would go off and shop and I'd go over tot he video section and just covet the Star Wars VHS. I saved and did little jobs and when I eventually had enough, on the Saturday we'd go shopping and I'd buy one... I'd meet him at the deli and we'd buy samosas... we'd then go home and sit down and watch them together while muching our samosas. Then I'd watch it over and over again. I'd then save for the next one... I was obsessed and I wanted to be a jedi more than anything.

...the prequels effectively diminish the light that shines out of the original trilogy. They are a travesty. The script is awful and acted awfully, the direction is bollocks. There's that sequence where Padme and Anakin are eating dinner in Clones... probably one of the most awful sequences commited to film. In Sith there's even more ridiculous faux-emotional bullshit that you can't get onboard with because of the awful acting. The scene where Anakin finally turns is ridiculously shit.

I bought the original trilogy on DVD and they truly do still stand up today. Empire is still a fantastic film.

son_of_foley

December 9th, 2009, 11:37 AM

My favourite was always Return of the Jedi but I was never massively into the series. I think stand-alone it's best

One Man Gang

December 9th, 2009, 11:40 AM

My biggest objection to the prequels is that they screwed up casting the most important role in the whole thing. Hayden sucked. If they cast Jude Law those last 2 flicks would have been leagues better.

They did cast Obi Wan perfectly though. :yes:

I wouldn't put so much of the blame on Hayden Christensen. The material he had to work with was atrocious. Anakin in AOTC was written as a whiny cunt. If he wasn't complaining then he was reciting horrible poetry to Padme or saying things like "grumpy" and "I wish I could wish away my feelings." Nobody could work with that. Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher were spared that sort of dialogue because TESB had different script writers and their situation was more bickering until they decided they were in love. And when they decided that, they didn't really talk about it per say but just kissed or said "i know." Since I've seen Christensen act reasonably well in Life As A House and Shattered Glass, the script shot every actor in the foot going into it.

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 11:46 AM

I am most upset that I did not receive an invitation to this thread declaring that you would be honoured if I would join you...

The Prequels had some bright spots, but they were mired in a lot of muck. Obi-Wan, as Fro said, was cast perfectly, and was fairly spot on for all he had to do in the story. Qui-Gon was great, and I enjoyed the hints of his already looking at the Force in a different way from the Jedi mainstream, though I agree with at it probably would have been better if Obi-Wan began as the master. Amidala, in the first film at least, was a pretty strong character as well, though leading a rebellion at 14 was pushing it a bit and since Portman was 16 during filming I don't know why they didn't bother just making that the character's age.

The lynch-pin though, was Anakin, and as said by a lot of posters here, Lucas failed utterly with that character in every aspect. Casting, dialogue, actions, direction, everything Anakin did was amazingly wrong. I have no idea why Padme would like him in the least after he admits to slaughtering a village full of women and children. I have no idea why Obi-Wan would feel the slightest remorse or regret at having to chop his limbs off, or why he was even surprised and heart-broken when Anakin turned out to be a basket case Sith Lord. It's not as if he had not been talking to a brick wall for ten years about keeping his emotions under control, and Obi-Wan obviously knew Anakin was obsessed with Padme and that her life was under constant threat.

Aside from Jar-Jar, I do still very much like The Phantom Menace, and see it as a fairly strong stand-alone Sci-Fi film for the younglings. It really put the prequels on an awkward footing though, starting with all of the characters being too young and introducing a whole layer of political complexity that was really unnecessary. Episode II then became a complete nothing film, simply a series of gratuitous CGI and nipple scenes (why so cold in the desert anyway?) that achieved nothing for the story arch aside from the last 30 seconds where Anakin and Padme marry and Palpatine gets his stormtroopers.

This left Episode III with pretty much the entire story to tell, and by then it was too late to make us care about Anakin, and I don't think Lucas even tried. He just sort of assumed we'd feel bad because he said in commentaries and interviews that Anakin used to be good. No, he didn't. He did one good thing in his entire life, and he did it because a hot chick walked into his store with an awesome guy with a laser sword and he wanted to impress them.

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 11:53 AM

The midi-chlorians thing just sapped the mystery of it. It was explained perfectly by Obi wan in the original trilogy... why did it need explaining further? It pissed me off so much.

Agreed. It reduces the Force to basically a parasite. Rather than being a mystical field of oneness throughout the universes, it's just some energy field that little creatures living in you are able to manipulate. It's just not as cool when you know the trick.

One Man Gang

December 9th, 2009, 12:04 PM

The midichlorians thing was a bit fucked up. Nobody asked for the force to be explained scientifically and yet he shoved it down our throats. Yodas explanation in TESB was magical. Had he made one mention of tiny bugs living in everyone, that scene would have collapsed. But then again, Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan wrote the screenplay to TESB and not George Lucas. He came up with the story and produced, but that film had others adding their input.

Back to Anakin though, did anyone else find it irritating that Lucas started the prequels with a 9 year old playing Anakin in an attempt to show he was once innocent, but then made him the happiest SLAVE in history. I get that the slavery plot point was a nice mirror to how he becomes a slave to the Emperor later, but when you put a character in that situation, write "he knows nothing of greed" and yet he is surrounded by it, something doesn't sit well with the audience because they cannot relate. Not saying Anakin should have been a monster at age 9, but he looked like he knew nothing of suffering.

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 12:11 PM

Back to Anakin though, did anyone else find it irritating that Lucas started the prequels with a 9 year old playing Anakin in an attempt to show he was once innocent, but then made him the happiest SLAVE in history. I get that the slavery plot point was a nice mirror to how he becomes a slave to the Emperor later, but when you put a character in that situation, write "he knows nothing of greed" and yet he is surrounded by it, something doesn't sit well with the audience because they cannot relate. Not saying Anakin should have been a monster at age 9, but he looked like he knew nothing of suffering.

Great point. Anakin and his mother, though they weren't free to wander off, seemed pretty content. Schmi griped a bit about the Republic not doing anything about slavery (and she was right, in ten years no one bothered to go back for her, even though her sacrifice saved two Jedi, a Queen and her planet from starving to death). They had more than enough food to share with their guests, and despite being a slave Anakin had plenty of time to build complex machinery and carve stuff for his girlfriend. Not to mention he raced pods all the time anyway, so it was far from a sacrifice for him to be risking his life to help Qui-Gon when he liked doing it.

There was nothing good about young Anakin, he was simply a Mary Sue, utterly and irritatingly perfect and well liked by everyone. Even Watto seemed somewhat fond of him.

One Man Gang

December 9th, 2009, 12:20 PM

Great point. Anakin and his mother, though they weren't free to wander off, seemed pretty content. Schmi griped a bit about the Republic not doing anything about slavery (and she was right, in ten years no one bothered to go back for her, even though her sacrifice saved two Jedi, a Queen and her planet from starving to death). They had more than enough food to share with their guests, and despite being a slave Anakin had plenty of time to build complex machinery and carve stuff for his girlfriend. Not to mention he raced pods all the time anyway, so it was far from a sacrifice for him to be risking his life to help Qui-Gon when he liked doing it.

There was nothing good about young Anakin, he was simply a Mary Sue, utterly and irritatingly perfect and well liked by everyone. Even Watto seemed somewhat fond of him.

You made my next point about freeing Shmi. At the end of TPM the Naboo and Gungans throw a parade and invite the boy who saved them from the Battle Droids. But nobody bothered to buy his mothers freedom?!! It would have been the least they could do as repayment and if you can afford a parade and a palace, you can buy one slave. Did Shmi not shelter their Queen? It is without a doubt the largest plot hole in the prequels and their is no excuse for why no attempt to free her was made. Had they gone to Tatooine and she had been sold already, then fine. But its clear Padme made no attempt and the Jedi sure as hell thought it best that his mother, who he was so attached to, be left to live a life of misery. They couldn't give him just that one comfort?! Its absolutely unbelievable that Lucas thought we'd accept 10 years passing while letting her rot there. How can the audience in any way feel bad for the Jedi Order or Obi-Wan if they let that happen?

On the subject of the Queen, what the fuck are the Naboo doing electing a 14 year old to govern them? How does that make any sense. It would be one thing if she inherited the throne, but she was elected. What sort of people are these? How can the audience relate to this situation at all?

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 12:31 PM

How can the audience in any way feel bad for the Jedi Order or Obi-Wan if they let that happen?

A part of me thinks this was meant to happen, as the Jedi are not portrayed in an entirely sympathetic light. Though thanks to Lucas cutting stuff of substance to fit in more explosions and abs, it's not entirely clear, but with deleted scenes and the novel and a little digging in between the lines it seems that the Jedi weren't supposed to be the way they ended up, and we're supposed to see them as being a bit stupid in denying things like attachment and that this is one reason Anakin resents them, because they are trying to quash his natural instinct to give a shit about people.

Unfortunately there is no mentioned I can recall, even in deleted scenes or stuff from the novels, of even Anakin bringing up the idea of rescuing his mother. So it's more likely Lucas just entirely forgot about it.

On the subject of the Queen, what the fuck are the Naboo doing electing a 14 year old to govern them? How does that make any sense. It would be one thing if she inherited the throne, but she was elected. What sort of people are these? How can the audience relate to this situation at all?

The place is meant to be so peaceful and dedicated to scholarship that the Queen wouldn't have significant responsibilities and would be rather advanced in her education compared with your average 14 year old. The age is still a bit tough to swallow, though, and obviously she did have a lot of crap to deal with when someone decides to blockade her planet because they didn't want to pay taxes to travel through her sector of space.

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 12:54 PM

The scene where Anakin finally turns is ridiculously shit.

That gay reading of "What have I done?" after he turns makes me want to punch him and Lucas in the tit. It breaks the mood of the scene, is bad and unintentional comedy and is utterly ridiculous.

It's also good to know that Darth Vader hates the sand. :shifty:

One Man Gang

December 9th, 2009, 12:59 PM

For over 2 decades the general audience was under the belief that the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice and that we should feel sorry for Obi-Wan in ANH when he recalls the Empire hunting them down.

Then we got 3 movies where it became incredibly difficult to like them at all. Even if they forbid attachment, I think it was made clear that Anakin was a special case and that he knew and loved his mother for 10 years prior to joining the Jedi Order. Something most Jedi do not experience. So letting Shmi rot was rather harsh. Not only this, but Shmi also sheltered Qui-Gon Jinn and lent out her little boy to get two of their Jedi off of Tatooine. The Jedi being set in their ways is one thing, but that was just a plot hole that in not excusable as it doesnt come off as natural in any way shape or form that they would do that and yet they're fine with protecting a Queen.

As for the the Naboo, since the film starts us off with a crisis, it could hardly be established that they are such enlightened people that their elected officials hardly matter to them enough to not care if a 14 year old runs their planet. Poor form by Lucas.

Alf

December 9th, 2009, 1:04 PM

I agree the prequels also squashed every bit of romance about the Jedi knights too. What they were, what they did etc etc.

I had them pinned down as highly respected and highly deadly protectors of the galaxy. What we got was a bunch of chin strokers who didn't do much of anything.

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 1:22 PM

As for the the Naboo, since the film starts us off with a crisis, it could hardly be established that they are such enlightened people that their elected officials hardly matter to them enough to not care if a 14 year old runs their planet. Poor form by Lucas.

Yeah, this is a huge problem Lucas has, he forgets that the audience is not inside his head. There are quite a few places where things only make sense if you know background (and sometimes a lot of this background comes from the head of EU writers). I know how the people of Theed were supposed to be by reading a bunch of supplemental material and talking to other Star Wars fans about it. But on the screen, it looks like they have a child on the throne. Her age isn't actually mentioned in the film as far as I recall, but she's clearly really young and hard to take seriously as a ruler of an entire planet without understanding the context in which she got there. Which, like her specific age, is all stuff we're supposed to figure out from further reading. I can't actually recall if they mention she was elected in TPM, though I'm sure the idea of term limits comes up in AotC, in yet another clanger where Anakin points out to Padme (as if she wouldn't bloody remember it!) that the planet wanted to amend their constitution to allow her to serve more than two terms, because she was so super awesome.

To be fair she was pretty awesome as a queen, relative to the rest of the idiots in the entire galaxy, who seemed utterly incapable of marching into one room of one palace, capturing two talking fish-things and breaking the blockade. Then she goes from this to sexy sidekick who is clearly trying to seduce a mass murderer to simpering wretch who can't even be bothered to live for her twins.

One Man Gang

December 9th, 2009, 1:30 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love some of the concepts and ideas the PT gave us. Who would have thought the Clone Wars would be between Stormtroopers and Battle Droids? I guess it really was clones vs clones. It just boils my blood more with every flaw because I enjoy the overall story so much.

On the subject of clones, there were a few things that irked me there too. First would be the idea that Jango Fetts face would be plastered on every clonetrooper corpse. Wouldn't that bother the separatist leaders that the bounty hunter that their leader (Count Dooku) chose to kill Senator Amidala turned out to be the template for a secret Republic army? What were the odds? If they were in on it, then certainly the scene where they stand around the war room shocked that the Jedi had an army wouldn't have happened.

Also I love the dialogue slip up regarding the clones when Obi-Wan is investigating who ordered them. First Lama Su says a Jedi named Syfo-Dyas made an order 10 years ago. Now before knowing what Dyas ordered, Obi-Wan says the guy died almost 10 years ago. Lama Su says hes sorry to hear that and then proceeds to explain what he ordered for the Jedi. Then later, Obi-Wan tells Yoda and Mace that he (Obi-Wan) was under the impression Dyas died before the order was placed. Meaning from the start, Obi-Wan was covering up something so as not to alarm Lama Su before he even knew what he was covering up or if he needed to cover it up. Brilliant. It was meant to show that this Dyas guy was framed and didn't order the clones, but it was sloppy dialogue.

Also it seems as though the investigation into who ordered the clone army was dropped. Obi-Wan finds out someone used the name of a dead Jedi to order an army and that a man called Tyranus hired the template. The template then flies to Geonosis to stand beside a former Jedi who apparently hired Jango to kill the main opponent of an army for the Republic, Senator Amidala. Is putting 2 and 2 together such a hard concept for the Jedi? I would hightly suspect Count Dooku. Especially since only a Jedi could have erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives.

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 2:13 PM

Another thing I didn't like in the prequels was showing Yoda and Palpatine as swordplay masters. Growing up on the OT, I always pictured those two as being so skilled that they were above such flippy antics.

An edit that I think would have worked wonderfully in ROTS is when Windu and the Jedi's confront Palpatine. Have all the dialogue the same (the stuff there is actually great thanks to McDiarmid's superb delivery) but cut after he lights up the red blade and says "It's treason, then." Jump to Anakin racing to his office and then, upon his entry, have Skywalker find slashed and smoldering Jedi corpses. He makes his way into the main office and finds the Emperor doing his little ploy to get him to strike down Windu.

That movie had too many duels as it was. Then just have Sidious vs. Yoda as a giant force off, in contrast to the proper duel of Obi and Anakin.

Another thing that kind of irked me was Anakin not getting a red blade after becoming Vader. Obi Wan had to somehow get his blue saber, yes, so it would have been cool to see AnaVader rock both (blue and red) during the final duel. Lucas teased him being able to duel wield in Ep II and that would have been a nice little touch. Having him lose his real arm (with the blue blade) would have been a nice touch. Obi Wan thinks it's over after disarming him, but Vader charges again with his robotic arm and a red blade. Could have been a much more dramatic moment than "I have the high ground" and a single swipe taking all his limbs.

VanillaJello

December 9th, 2009, 2:14 PM

All I really have to say is I thought Darth Maul was a pretty cool looking character.

Fro

December 9th, 2009, 2:28 PM

When Yoda first yielded his lightsaber and fought Dooku in AOTC I marked out like crazy. That was one of the best moments of the new movies for me, and I still think Yoda's fight scenes were awesome.

One Man Gang

December 9th, 2009, 2:56 PM

I was fine with Palpatine and Yoda showing off their saber skills. Though the duel in Palpatines office was terribly shot. The Jedi came off as jobbers. Not saying Palpatine shouldn't have handed them their asses, just that two of them died fairly fast. Before they could even swing a saber and yet Palpatine wasn't that quick.

I don't mind seeing him cut down the Jedi, but maybe more voice overs from Palpatine to Anakin would have added another layer. Like Anakin is racing to towards the office and Palpatine (while cutting down Jedi left and right) is pleading with Anakin to hurry. It would have made the audience realize that a trap was coming.

One thing I must say is that I absolutely loved the scene where Anakin and Padme stare out the windows with only the score playing. Perfectly done. I don't know where that came from in Lucas.

On the downside of the duels, I was not at all happy with the way the force lightning came off as obsolete. It totally brought the scene in ROTJ when the Emperor is zapping Luke. Instead of it being his special power that was unstoppable, it became something his apprentices can use, it can be blocked by sabers, and it can be returned by clever Jedi.

WizoOzz

December 9th, 2009, 3:11 PM

Not being a huge Star Wars nerd, I do enjoy both prequel trilogies relatively thoroughly. I don't nit pick movies by and large - I'm of the mindset that a movie's a movie, and that there are things that happen, and unless there's something THAT bad or amateur, like a boom mike in frame or something along those lines, I try to enjoy movies as an artform.

However...

The one thing that has always bothered me, and perhaps the only thing that has really bothered me, about the original trilogy is Lucas' pomposity to have us believe that he had this thing set in stone and ready to go from day one.

The thing that really seals the deal for me with this is the incest kiss in ANH. You seriously expect me to believe that Lucas had it all planned out to not have it be some kind of complex love triangle, but just have it be "oh yeah, by the way, these kids are siblings. Ignore the kiss, folks." No, he may have generally had some idea of an outline of the story, but the fine tuning and fleshing out of the story is obviously done last minute and kind've haphazard. That doesn't take away from them being good stories, but man, stop acting like you knew everything about every chapter of the saga. Just say, "hey, I had this idea, and fleshing this shit out worked out. Lucky me."

The prequel trilogy, Jar Jar was just the fucking worst. I can't watch TPM because of that thing. Well, that, and the only great part of that flick was the end duel between Qui Gon, Obi Wan and Darth Maul. The rest puts me to sleep every time.

I actually enjoyed AotC and RotS. Yeah, there were some really hilariously bad moments. But I think everyone by and large knew that the magic and charm of the original trilogy wouldn't be recaptured. You take a look at it for what it is (an attempt to milk that cow for as much as they could) and there are some good enough moments.

I would have loved for things to have been done slightly different. But I take into account my perception about Lucas being a pompous ass, and I think meh, could've been worse. At least it wasn't just him jerking himself off. There was some stuff in there for the fans too.

Hero!

December 9th, 2009, 3:27 PM

Never cared for Star Wars, but I was watching this earlier and think you lot might like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV7Ha3VDbzE

Second City Saint

December 9th, 2009, 3:36 PM

If you hate Jar Jar (and who doesn't), search for the Phantom Edit. It's Phantom Menace with 20 minutes cut - 20 minutes of Jar Jar.

Also, ESB is undoubtedly the best film of the series; it had everything.

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 3:38 PM

Never cared for Star Wars...

Hero, you're breaking my heart.

Hero!

December 9th, 2009, 3:58 PM

Sorry, I'm a different kind of geek.

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 4:02 PM

You're going down a path I can't follow...

Hero!

December 9th, 2009, 4:10 PM

May the power protect me?

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 4:15 PM

You've changed.

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 4:24 PM

The one thing that has always bothered me, and perhaps the only thing that has really bothered me, about the original trilogy is Lucas' pomposity to have us believe that he had this thing set in stone and ready to go from day one.

The thing that really seals the deal for me with this is the incest kiss in ANH. You seriously expect me to believe that Lucas had it all planned out to not have it be some kind of complex love triangle, but just have it be "oh yeah, by the way, these kids are siblings. Ignore the kiss, folks."[/QUOTE]

I assume you mean the kiss in ESB, since ANH was just a peck on the cheek, and I've seen plenty of siblings do that (though it is Scotland...).

Anyway, Lucas has admitted that Leia as Luke's sister was pulled out of his ass and initially the plan for Return of the Jedi was to introduce another female character who would turn out to be Luke's sister, but he didn't think they really had the room for it as they worked on the script, and since Empire had already set up another Jedi out there somewhere, they went with Leia.

LOCONUT

December 9th, 2009, 4:41 PM

Didn't he respond that he knew Leia was his sister in Empire?

DDT

December 9th, 2009, 4:42 PM

Sorry, I'm a different kind of geek.

http://gaijinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/kamen_rider_first.jpg

Even if there is no God or Buddha, there is.....KAMEN RIDER!

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 4:45 PM

Leia has an amazing memory. Remembering her mother and all...

Excel

December 9th, 2009, 4:53 PM

She probably meant Bail Organas wife, I dont think she knew she was adopted. I suspect she died when Leia was young and Bail then remarried. Hence the "your real mother line£ that she mistook as being Bails first wife.

Hero!

December 9th, 2009, 6:29 PM

http://gaijinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/kamen_rider_first.jpg

Even if there is no God or Buddha, there is.....KAMEN RIDER!

Yes! Respect Da Riders. Henshin!

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 7:12 PM

Didn't he respond that he knew Leia was his sister in Empire?

I don't believe so. I'm sure he said he didn't plan on that until writing Jedi.

She probably meant Bail Organas wife, I dont think she knew she was adopted. I suspect she died when Leia was young and Bail then remarried. Hence the "your real mother line£ that she mistook as being Bails first wife.

That's possible but it would totally mess with the meaning of the scene. It's clear Luke was asking about Padme and we have no background on Leia to suggest she would mistake that question for something about her adoptive father's first wife. All we know is Leia knows she is adopted (and that's from extra material and a bit of inference, once more Lucas fails to actually mention it in the script) and Luke is asking about her real mother who he is thinking of as his own mother. It would basically amount to Leia completely misunderstanding Luke's question in one of the most meaningful scenes of the trilogy, then not correcting herself when figuring out he's talking about their collective mother.

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 7:18 PM

Padme having to go into hiding with one of her kids and having to give the other one up for his own protection would have been heartbreakingly wonderful. Lucas couldn't pull it off as director, I don't think, but it would have been class.

LOCONUT

December 9th, 2009, 7:30 PM

I don't believe so. I'm sure he said he didn't plan on that until writing Jedi.

Start it at 2:10 to skip the gay flashbacks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6RZ1CV-44s

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 7:46 PM

Start it at 2:10 to skip the gay flashbacks...

Oh you meant Luke. I thought you were talking about Lucas. Aye, Luke claims to have always known, which does not help matters in the slightest. Yay for incest!

LOCONUT

December 9th, 2009, 7:52 PM

How would Luke know without Lucas knowing? :wtf:

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 7:53 PM

Luke's ass... Lukeass... Lucas.

LOCONUT

December 9th, 2009, 7:57 PM

Gorge Luke's Ass.

The_Mike

December 9th, 2009, 8:01 PM

How would Luke know without Lucas knowing? :wtf:

Just because Luke says in Jedi "I've always known" doesn't mean that he has, in fact, always known. Lucas said he didn't plan on Leia being his sister until writing Jedi and realising that he didn't have the space to introduce and expand a new character to be the Other Skywalker so he made it Leia instead.

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 8:04 PM

At that speed will you be able to pull out in time?

Atty

December 9th, 2009, 10:36 PM

David Lynch talking about Lucas offering him the director's chair for Return of the Jedi. Nothing too Earth-shattering but, apparently, Lucas told him that he didn't like to direct (we kind of know this from the prequels) and he's too short to drive a Ferrari. I assume Lynch means "Ewoks" when he says Wookies.

Lynch on Star Wars/Lucas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDB8Q15iUIE&feature=player_embedded#at=185)

Going back to Lucas not liking to direct, I've never quite understood why he directed all three prequels. In the lead up (before production on Episode I), he said that if he directed any of them, it would be the first one. Seems that his talents would have been better used staying on the creative and effects end of the process and letting someone else direct the actors. Between toying with new technology, filming entirely on green screen and so forth, he never really would have been able to cover everything on his own.

Aussie_Outlaw

December 10th, 2009, 12:20 AM

Going back to Lucas not liking to direct, I've never quite understood why he directed all three prequels.

Come on, you know you understand why. Lucas is a control freak, that's basically it in a nutshell.

ReDPath

December 10th, 2009, 12:20 AM

Only liked Sith in the prequel set.

It would have been better if they decided...

1. Not to do another set of movies.

Or

2. Gone with a sequel trilogy and put different people in the chair besides Lucas.

Atty

December 10th, 2009, 4:20 AM

Come on, you know you understand why. Lucas is a control freak, that's basically it in a nutshell.

He's an indecisive control freak, who doesn't know what he really wants and constantly changes his product around after release.

Aussie_Outlaw

December 10th, 2009, 5:59 AM

He's an indecisive control freak, who doesn't know what he really wants and constantly changes his product around after release.

Though he's generally got good vision (eg, LucasArts / ILM) and can market really well.

I'm not really much of a Star Wars diehard, don't play the games, read the books but as everyone has I've seen all the movies and they were the video tapes (taped from the TV of course) which I'd watch regularly as a kid and must have seen the original trilogy a half-dozen or so times (I really have no idea, but I know it backwards) and is probably why I end up liking science fiction.

Frank_Drebin

December 10th, 2009, 6:28 AM

There was nothing good about young Anakin, he was simply a Mary Sue, utterly and irritatingly perfect and well liked by everyone. Even Watto seemed somewhat fond of him.

I was trying to avoid posting in here because I know that once I get started its going to be very difficult for me to stop. But Mike's onto something there which has bothered me for some time.

I think the prequels were mostly a let down to everyone, with some great iconic redeeming scenes. But some things were left on the cutting room floor which had so much potential, and it really irritates me that they were cut because they could have made the film so much better.

In the Phantom Menace there was originally to be a scene where young "lazer-swords" Anakin gets into a fight with a young Greedo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP5defnEQ8A

Now, I'm totally against these Dickensian coincidence cameo scenes, I hated Chewbacca being in ROTH just for th hell of it, and it hated Boba Fett's dad being the master-copy for all the clones. But this small scene, where Anakin was pissed off at, lets say a young alien rather than it being young Greedo, told so much story in 15 seconds. Anakin has a temper, and although generally very content occasionally loses judgement.

Qui Gonn catches him and breaks up the fight, this causes him to eventually to be wary of how dangerous he could be. The Jedi Council are torn over their decision to let him train him, and already, even in the first movie we see that Anakin is not as clean-cut as the Jedi would like him to be.

I would also have had him do something a little rough at the pod-race to one of the other guys and get a telling off for it, only for him to lose his temper.

Chris

December 10th, 2009, 2:42 PM

Lucas teased him being able to duel wield in Ep II and that would have been a nice little touch.
That was an annoying tease. When I saw it in the trailer, I was looking forward to the duel - then he ends up losing the extra Saber in under 10 seconds. I remember being very disappointed by that entire scene, until Yoda showed up. Clearly it couldn't compare to the pace and acrobatics of "Duel of the Fates", and it didn't need to - but it was very short and Dooku dispatched both Jedi fairly easily.

When Luke asked if the Dark Side was stronger in Empire Strikes Back, it seemed like it certainly was after seeing the prequels. Maul took on two Jedi, killed one and had the other well and truly on the ropes until he was caught off guard with a sudden somersault. Dooku cut through Obi-Wan and Anakin without breaking much of a sweat. I thought Obi-Wan was over-powered too quickly during their duel in Episode 3. Granted, Dooku threw him into a railing using the Force, but it just seemed at odds with Obi-Wan's forceful duel with Anakin later in the film. When it came to either Saber skills or using the Force, it seemed like the Sith had a major upper hand on the Jedi.

I saw all of the prequels at midnight, and I miss not having a Star Wars movie to look forward to. Especially all the rumours swirling around about what would be in each movie. I remember the big Star Wars thread in this forum while the movies were coming out, and all the discussion about the different scenes that were supposedly in Episode 3. Originally, it was said to be a big duel between Windu and Anakin. Then there were reports that you'd get to see Palpatine's Royal Guards in action - Windu would defeat them, but be too incapacitated to be much of a match for Anakin or Palpatine. It slowly but surely turned into reports of Palpatine going toe-to-toe with Windu.

Also, there were loads of reports stating that Lucas would drop his usual cross-cutting battle climax and show the full Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel uninterrupted for 12 minutes or whatever it's length was said to be. Some of the things in Episode 3 weren't as good as the rumours that came before it, while other things were better. But it was all the speculation and anticipation that I loved.

The_Mike

December 10th, 2009, 3:06 PM

Good stuff on the fight scene, Frank_Drebin. I know Lucas cut it because of his insistence that Anakin be portrayed as pure and wholly good (which makes me wonder how it got to the stage of being filmed if this was such an important part of the character), but I think this actually is a detriment to the overall film, and not just Anakin. Had the fight remained, Qui-Gon's caginess in front of the council would have made more sense, and so too would their distrust of the boy and the fear/anger/hate they sensed in him. As it is, we have a bunch of old men and women cajoling a little boy for missing his mummy and calling him a scaredy cat even though he risked his frickin' life to save two Knights and avert a political disaster. Once more the Jedi look like complete asses, with the slightest semblance of justification left on the cutting-room floor.

Atty

December 10th, 2009, 4:37 PM

I would also have had him do something a little rough at the pod-race to one of the other guys and get a telling off for it, only for him to lose his temper.

I've always thought he should have tapped the force in the race to screw over Sibulba (whatever his name was.)

Like have them neck and neck at the end, only for the little kid to wave his hand and something to screw up in his rivals pod. That would have, at least, given the Jedi Council reason to be so mistrustful of him.

That leads me to another thing that stands out for me now: the Jedi Council MADE Darth Vader. They alienated Anakin throughout his time with them, allowed his fears of his mother to fester and his paranoia to grow. They pushed him to be closer to Palpatine. In this vein, ever since Episode II, I've felt it was poor planning on Lucas's part not to have Dooku on the council in Episode I. That could have played nicely to the overall story if they had Dooku planting the mistrust in the council that would alienate Anakin and drive him to the dark side.

Second City Saint

December 10th, 2009, 4:57 PM

That leads me to another thing that stands out for me now: the Jedi Council MADE Darth Vader. They alienated Anakin throughout his time with them, allowed his fears of his mother to fester and his paranoia to grow. They pushed him to be closer to Palpatine. In this vein, ever since Episode II, I've felt it was poor planning on Lucas's part not to have Dooku on the council in Episode I. That could have played nicely to the overall story if they had Dooku planting the mistrust in the council that would alienate Anakin and drive him to the dark side.Anakin was alienated because of his lack of patience and willingness to follow orders, which he felt were the result of jealousy. They all sensed he had seeds of the dark side in him and thus did not want him to be trained. If anything, Qui-Gon's defiant insistence was the catalyst for Darth Vader's creation.

I don't see how Dooku trying to plant the seeds for Vader makes any sense. Wasn't it Sidious' plan that Anakin take his place anyway?

Atty

December 10th, 2009, 5:05 PM

Dooku never knew that.

It would have been a nice touch to have had Dooku being a dick to him when he first met with the council. It would have added to his alienation and, more importantly, would further his decent into the darkside when he faced off with a guy he's hated since childhood.

Second City Saint

December 10th, 2009, 5:26 PM

But there are only two Sith (known). Dooku's not a moron, wouldn't he have to believe that if Anakin turned it would be at his expense? Unless Dooku were under the impression he could destroy Sidious and take over the role of master with Anakin as his Sith padawan.

Atty

December 10th, 2009, 5:28 PM

The_Mike

December 10th, 2009, 5:35 PM

Second City Saint

December 10th, 2009, 5:40 PM

Darth Maul was pretty obedient. Pretty arrogant too.

Atty

December 10th, 2009, 5:41 PM

Darth Maul was a weapon. Trained from childhood to be a loyal killing machine.

The_Mike

December 10th, 2009, 5:42 PM

Maul hadn't learned all he could yet, so he was still milking Sidious. Ultimately, Sith aim for the top.

EDIT: That too. I don't think Sidious had plans for him to last all that long.

Second City Saint

December 10th, 2009, 5:44 PM

That was Vader's plan for Luke... Vader and Dooku are two different animals

Atty

December 10th, 2009, 5:47 PM

Vader and Dooku are two different animals

True, but it doesn't preclude him trying to seduce someone he sees potential in.

Second City Saint

December 10th, 2009, 5:48 PM

Pedophile logic.

Atty

December 10th, 2009, 5:55 PM

Sidious was a paedo.

So was Qui Jon.

Badger

December 10th, 2009, 6:04 PM

If it weren't for Star Wars, we wouldn't have Spaceballs so it's all good.

Atty

December 11th, 2009, 3:27 AM

Whatever, Major.

The_Mike

December 11th, 2009, 8:04 PM

Hokey effects and witty dialogue are no match for a good CGI explosion at your side.

The_Mike

December 13th, 2009, 2:21 PM

So apparently the live action TV series won't air until 2011, if we're lucky. I was looking forward to it, but I guess the Clone Wars cartoons are cheaper and easier to do. According to Lucas, when the series arrives, it will be "bare bones and action-heavy", which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Not only that, but the plan is to have the thing branch within a couple of years to 4 different series, like Stargate/Star Trek. Talk about freaking milking it.

Atty

December 13th, 2009, 2:27 PM

The one thing about it that gives me hope is that they'll be forced to not have everyone be Jedi. The lack of non-force users (like a Han or a Lando) hurt the prequels.

The_Mike

December 13th, 2009, 2:31 PM

An interesting point. Who did we have that was a main character who couldn't deus ex machina their way out of almost any trouble? Padme and... Jar-Jar? And they only really had characters in the first film, then became plot devices. Guys like Han added a smart mouth and more versatility to situations than chopping it to pieces with a lightsaber.

Atty

December 13th, 2009, 2:40 PM

There was that kindly old Senator. He wasn't a force user, right?

Oh, right...

The_Mike

December 13th, 2009, 2:56 PM

R2D2.

Atty

December 13th, 2009, 3:05 PM

You know, R2 should have been all "bleep blorp/you might not want to fly off to fight Pops, Luke" on his way to the cloud city...

One Man Gang

December 13th, 2009, 3:20 PM

R2D2 should never have had rocket boosters in the PT. Had he had those in the OT, he would never have fallen in the Dagobah swamp or just took a tumble off Jabbas sail barge.

Atty

December 13th, 2009, 3:39 PM

Zarius

December 13th, 2009, 3:44 PM

[CENTER]Lucas has been fairly short sighted in character development and who survives situations multiple times. In the commentary of the original films, he says that he’d never have launched Boba Fett into the Sarclacc Pit if he knew how popular he was. He said the same basic thing about killing Maul off in the Episode I DVD./CENTER]

And when Harrison was adament about Han dying, George wouldnt do it...because he was popular.

Atty

December 13th, 2009, 3:47 PM

And when Harrison was adament about Han dying, George wouldnt do it...because he was popular.

That's not why they didn't kill him. Lucas says as much in the DVDs. It's because he was adament on none of the heroes being killed off at the end.

The_Mike

December 13th, 2009, 4:27 PM

Except Anakin...

Good point about Lucas being short sighted, though. How he could have reached the shooting stage of Jedi without knowing Boba Fett was popular? He really seems to have just written all of this for himself, which is fair enough as it's one of the keys to good writing, but what he creates seems to have little internal consistency and things just occur on his whim as orchestrator of the galaxy. According to the AotC DVD, he designed Padme's dress from the fireplace scene all by himself, which is at once both creepy and utterly against the character's actions and intentions both before and during the scene. "Oh Anakin, I don't want you, and you shouldn't want me, but by all means stare into my cleavage". Then there's the aforementioned R2 and his rocket boosters that apparently just seemed like a cool idea at the time, and the litany of characters killed and replaced with characters of the exact same function and role just for... I don't know. Maybe to sell more action figures?

One Man Gang

December 13th, 2009, 4:28 PM

Lucas has been fairly short sighted in character development and who survives situations multiple times. In the commentary of the original films, he says that he’d never have launched Boba Fett into the Sarclacc Pit if he knew how popular he was. He said the same basic thing about killing Maul off in the Episode I DVD. He seems to detach himself from seeking out others opinions and that, in turn, shelters him from potential criticism.

In the prequels he kept making new characters to replace the ones he killed off. Dooku replaced Maul, Grievious replaced Jango and so forth. I hate to knock the good General (I liked his character a good bit) but it would have been much more effective had they kept Jango alive and in his role. The template for the clone army leading the opposition to it is much more interesting, to me, than a robot leading a robot army. It also would have been cool to see a Jango/Boba type character with the lightsabers of fallen Jedi on his belt. That one change also makes it cooler when Obi Wan catches him, as he’d have been essentially chasing him for two films at that point.

Something that I’d have loved would have been to see some red on red action, to foreshadow what Vader wants to do with Luke in the next trilogy. For this, Maul survives Episode I and dies in a red on red duel with Dooku at the end of Episode II. It would show the treachery of the Sith first hand and could end with Sidious christening Dooku as Darth Tyranus at the end and commending him for killing Maul. Plus, that way, we’d hopefully not get non-Sidious characters busting out force lightning. Liked it more when that was seen as an exclusive power to him.

Eek. I have to disagree with most of that. Jango is a bounty hunter, not a field general. While some characters lightly transition from one to the other in the Star Wars saga, I think its best that Jango stays true to his nature. Also I think its more haunting in Episode III when Jango's face is all over the troops Obi-Wan leads. The echoes of the "they'll do their job well" speech vibrate more if Jango is long dead IMO. They did chase some villains across multiple films, they were just Sidious, Dooku, and Gunray instead of Jango.

As for Maul, he was a weapon and while he should easily have had more screen time in TPM, I'm not sure if his character needed two films. Especially if you still want Tyranus. I feel more should have been made out of Maul's death from the side of Sidious though. He spent 20 to 30 years training that monster and then some punk apprentice kils him. It sorta was a "you killed my apprentice, so I'll take yours" at the end of TPM, but not fully fleshed out.

The_Mike

December 13th, 2009, 4:31 PM

As for Maul, he was a weapon and while he should easily have had more screen time in TPM, I'm not sure if his character needed two films. Especially if you still want Tyranus. I feel more should have been made out of Maul's death from the side of Sidious though. He spent 20 to 30 years training that monster and then some punk apprentice kils him. It sorta was a "you killed my apprentice, so I'll take yours" at the end of TPM, but not fully fleshed out.

Siduous does get his hands on Obi-Wan's apprentice at the end of TPM, though, and it's extremely subtle but such an intention could be read into it, I suppose. Especially with the 'celebration' music being a speeded up version of the Emperor's theme. In hindsight, there is quite a sinister undercurrent to the whole scene.

One Man Gang

December 13th, 2009, 4:34 PM

The_Mike

December 13th, 2009, 4:44 PM

While that was a nice touch that was filmed a few months before TPM debuted, more reminders of why Sidious may hate Obi-Wan in later movies would have been good. You almost get that when he suggests in AOTC that Obi-Wan protect Senator Amidala. But then nothing specifically comes of it that can be linked to Sidious's planning.

I was unaware that scene was filmed so late after principal photography, was it just the Palpatine/Anakin interaction specifically or the whole sequence?

I agree, I definitely would have liked to see more umbridge between Sidious and Obi-Wan. Suggesting he protect the Senator was crafty in that it would reintroduce her to Anakin and Palpatine must have known of his obsession due to their close relationship, but it would have been nice to see some more hangover from the previous film.

One Man Gang

December 13th, 2009, 4:53 PM

Just the portion where Palpatine speaks to Anakin and Obi-Wan was shot so late in the game. The rest of the scene I believe was shot during principal photography. I only mention when it was shot because Lucas nearly went an entire film without Anakin and Palpatine interacting. He almost did it again in AOTC as the scene between the two in the office was shot in post production. If you ever noticed the way the two movE down the steps in the scene, you'll realize they shot it in front of a blue screen long after the set had been taken down. Can you imagine almost 2 films going by without any interacting between Vader and the Emperor? This was almost some serious oversight and speaks to George getting lost in his own creation.

On a side note, the shot of Aurra Sing was done long after pick up shots (which are meant to film things they didn't catch in principal) too. The rumor in 1999 was that George wanted to add her because he wanted to use a female bounty hunter in Episode 2 for something. Come the summer of 2000 though, apparently he had changed his mind on what this bounty huntress should look like. But for that year Aurra Sing was massively popular. In fact, that may have contributed to why he ultimately didnt use her. She became worth more alive in the expanded universe then dead at the start of AOTC.

Atty

December 19th, 2009, 4:37 PM

This is a seven part, 70-minute, review of The Phantom Menace. I came across it awhile back but didn't watch it due to the length. A friend just insisted that I see it on facebook and it's the most entertainingly brilliant and twisted review I've seen. It's a good watch in the background for those interested and I think OneManGang and Mike will enjoy it.

And he has video of George calling the Gungans "Goongas" and saying how effects should always be secondary to the story. That makes my day. As did the fact that Damon Lindelof (head writer of Lost) has actually endorsed it and said that everyone should watch it.

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six
Part Seven

The_Mike

December 19th, 2009, 4:59 PM

Ah I love Lucas and his random pronunciation of his own creations. Googans, Naeboo, Leeah, etc. It's odd how he seems to say things entirely differently from the rest of the world, and he's the one who created them.

Thanks for this, atty, I'll check it out tonight. :yes:

Second City Saint

December 19th, 2009, 6:13 PM

I just watched this. Nothing really stood out as being new criticism, but it was certainly a comprehensive review that pretty much addresses the problems with the film. I'll admit that bit about Obi Wan's status as a jedi knight never occurred to me, though.

Video really could've done without all the added 'humor,' though.

The Rogerer

December 19th, 2009, 6:19 PM

Thanks for that. I always felt they sucked but never had it expressed so precisely.

Atty

December 19th, 2009, 6:46 PM

I have no clue how I never caught the Obi Wan Jedi Knight thing.

Second City Saint

December 19th, 2009, 7:08 PM

If anyone wants a download link to the new Family Guy Star Wars parody 'Something Something Dark Side' PM me.

viva_la_raza

December 19th, 2009, 7:39 PM

First off, brilliant thread idea :yes:

I will never forget the first time I watched the three original Star Wars movies. It was on consecutive nights in a summer holiday years and years ago, and my father had hyped them up so much. They were fantastic, and remain to be. Sure, some of the dialouge is very, very corny but on the whole, how could anyone not like the OT. The good characters, first of all, fom the core like Luke, Han and Chewie all the way down to Wedge and Admiral Ackbar are memorable and loveable.

The PT is so bad. There are so few things right with it, I will name them. Neeson and McGregor in the first one were a good combination. Jar-Jar, one of the most hidously annoying characters of all time, was actually the reason that the Emporer was able to get control of the senate and thus could be blamed for the whole thing, the storm troopers being originally used by the Jedi.... and that's it.

There is so much wrong with the PT that I can't even begin to name it all. First off, ROTS is simply just CGI and lightsabre duels. The start of the Clones film should have been incredible, but instead that massive space battle is in no context whatsoever, it is simply backdrop for the fight with Grevious. This just sums up how bad Lucas got the prequals. He gave up substance and storyline for a wow factor in special effects.

I like that people have already mentioned the mid-clorion thing. It was perfectly explained by Yoda in the OT, the explanation in the new ones was horrible.

My big problem with the second two films from PT was Hayden Christiansen. I don't think there has ever been a worse actor than that man. I've never seen him with any other expression that painfully bored in a film. McGregor and Neeson, as I mentioned before as personal highlights of the trilogy, were able to ressurect Lucas' awful dialouge. Christianson was just terrible, in every single way. It didn't help that Anakin was written to be a complete whingy douche, but a good actor could have at least added a little charm or charisma to the role. It's a bad sign when I actually wanted Obi Wan to kill Anakin rather than leave him dying.

viva_la_raza

December 19th, 2009, 7:41 PM

Also, both Family Guy Star Wars specils have been fantastic. A personal highlight:

"Hold your fire. There are no lifeforms aboard."
"Hold your fire? What are we, saving by the laser now?"
"You don't do the budget Terry, I do!"

Atty

December 20th, 2009, 2:38 AM

What did Admiral Ackbar say when he saw Episode I?

THIS IS CRAP!

Second City Saint

December 20th, 2009, 2:39 AM

CONCENTRATE ALL FIRE POWER ON THAT FILM PROJECTOR

One Man Gang

December 20th, 2009, 4:27 AM

I have no clue how I never caught the Obi Wan Jedi Knight thing.

After watching all 7 parts, I had pretty much thought about everything he said at one point or another except for that. It didn't even dawn on me that the opening scroll tells us he's a Jedi Knight when the movie tells us he's not until the end.

One thing I wish he had touched upon more was the treaty. For half the movie they were chasing Amidala so she could sign the treaty. Then when she leaves Coruscant, Sidious doesn't give a shit about the treaty and just wants them all dead. But then Gunray still wants her to sign the treaty. Its not Gunray being defiant of Sidious, its Lucas accidentally writing something contradictory...again.

Then there's the whole, sending Maul to Naboo. He didn't fly via taxi. He took his ship. Where did he park it and when did the Jedi find it?

The_Mike

December 20th, 2009, 9:51 AM

I guess it shows how much attention I was paying to the film when a fair few plot points brought up in those videos were things I hadn't considered. As with the rest of you, the Jedi Knight one certainly didn't occur to me, but I think that can be forgiven if we see it as just using short hand to identify Jedi-type folks (a Jedi Knight and his padawan learner is a bit wordy to put in an opening scroll). Though wasn't Qui-Gon a Master, so he's not a Jedi Knight technically either, right?

At least two things never made sense to me even the first time I saw it. First the two Jedi Knights/Padawans/Masters getting on different ships; as covered in the videos, this is just a stupid idea. But also, why would a droid ship carrying droids through space have life support? Did they just hold their breath the whole way down to the planet?

Then there is the treaty. We have no idea what the treaty actually is, why Sidious wants it signed, or if he actually does want it signed at all. The only way the plot makes sense is if Sidious could see into the future and knew that Amidala would defy the Trade Federation, reach Coruscant and move against Valorum. In which case... why the hell did he not stop the Trade Federation from almost killing her? If she got blown up running the blockade, he's totally screwed, because no one in the Senate gives a crap about Naboo and there'd be no one to make the no confidence motion. And why is he so adamant about wanting the treaty signed? It doesn't do him any good if it's signed, that utterly wrecks the plan!

I still think the movie is better than Attack of the Clones. While the plot is clearly a mess, it is at least a largely inoffensive mess. Episode II wrecks the only decent character to survive Episode I, makes the lead character even more annoying than when he was a child and shoe-horns a romance that makes no sense into the story just because we need babies. And there's not the least thing romantic about it.

I truly want someone to do the prequels again. Reboot the franchise, and while I normally dislike reboots, changing the tone to something much more contemporary and realistic, like Batman Begins, would be a lot more appealing.

Chris

December 20th, 2009, 10:30 AM

I would hate to see a reboot, personally. Far too many things are rebooted or reimagined these days, which just shows how lazy the industry has become. I'm not saying it doesn't always work - hell, the new Battlestar Galactica series was an absolutely brilliant show - but I really wouldn't want to see Star Wars re-done. Lucas is mining the hell out of the "Clone Wars", whether it's Episode 2, several animated shows, an animated feature length movie, etc, etc - I think I'd rather eat my own arm than see a set of movies re-do all of that again.

There's been so discussion on what was wrong with the prequels and how this could have been better than that and so on, that a new trilogy would just end up pissing everyone off again. If there's to be another Star Wars movie in the future, I want it to be set after Return of the Jedi. The problem with re-doing the prequels is that there's not really many places you can take it. It all has to lead back to Anakin Slywalker being Darth Vader, Luke and Leia as twins separated at birth, the Empire in control, etc. You could change a few events, remove or add characters and so on, but it's not like the franchise could be turned upside down without damaging the lead-in to the Original Trilogy.

The Star Trek franchise encountered the same problem with "Enterprise". At first, they tried to reduce the technology and other typical themes - then they just got lazy and ended up introducing familiar species long before they made their first appearance on TOS or TNG. Ultimately, they couldn't do anything wacky with those species, because it would upset the established franchise. At least with the new Star Trek movie, it's set in an alternate reality to the one we're used to watch - so events can transpire differently, relationships and politics can develop in new ways, characters may die unexpectedly, etc. At least with an Episode 7 of Star Wars, they don't have to worry about keeping in line with later continuity - they can take things in a whole new direction after the supposed defeat of the Empire at Endor.

I'd be just as content to see Star Wars put to rest. Fair enough if Lucas wants to bring out the movies in 3D somewhere along the line, but I wouldn't mind if there weren't any more TV shows or movies. I'm wary enough about the live action show. If it's set between Episodes 3 and 4, then there are a lot of restrictions. Will it really be interesting when you know how things must end (e.g. if Vader makes an appearance, he's never going to be in real jeopardy since he survives until Episode 6)? Will it appeal to those who expect to see lots of lightsaber action (unless it chronicles some Jedi who are still on the run from the Empire)? Will it have enough storyline and character development that people crave from TV shows these days, with on-going arcs and gripping cliffhangers? Lucas loves his 1930s serials, so maybe he'll be decent with the latter. But how well is Star Wars going to fare in today's TV climate, especially if it's just the same story being told again and again.

Atty

December 20th, 2009, 3:30 PM

Rather than a reboot, I'd like to see a whole new Star Wars series in a decade or so. Either go back to KOTOR times or forward, well past everything we've seen.

Craft a new story and tell it. Preferably when Lucas is out of the picture. :shifty:

One Man Gang

December 20th, 2009, 3:38 PM

Well they are making a live action star wars television show. It takes place between ROTS and ANH. That can either be made of win, or another disaster.

The_Mike

December 20th, 2009, 3:49 PM

A big reason I'd want to see a reimagining of the prequels is to get away from the wasteland of merchandising that the Clone Wars stuff has become. While of course the destination must be the same, there's about seven hours in which to take a radically different journey there, so I don't think it would have to feel all the same. Turning the franchise upside down wouldn't be what I would hope for (why? That's what the original prequels did, by turning the franchise from adored to reviled), more I'd just rather see the crap fixed and the story handled in a much more mature, tight manner.

Enterprise is a good example of what not to do, but I think they pretty much made the same mistakes in the prequels, which started out with really fancy, modern looking ships and computers and it wasn't until Episode II Lucas realised the OT craft and technology looked far less advanced in the OT and started going backwards. These kinds of oversights are the sort of thing I would hope a do-over would repair.

As for going in a new direction after RotJ, the story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. It always has been, so I'd much rather see his story completed properly, using a good actor and a character written as someone who doesn't hate sand and call his master "grumpy". There's plenty of room in the universe for new movies telling new stories, though, and I'd love to see anything set there that doesn't involve the Clone Wars yet again.

The TV show (or shows, they're planning to branch into four within two years), from what I've heard of it, sounds absolutely awful. So maybe just putting the whole thing to bed would be a good idea, at least until Lucas releases his stranglehold or remembers why he got into filmmaking in the first place.

Second City Saint

December 20th, 2009, 3:57 PM

I don't see a problem with someone redoing the prequels. Absolute worse case senario - they're an insult to the original prequels and that's not really a concern. I fully endorse a second try on this project. But I would like someone like Kevin Smith to be in charge of it and for George Lucas to be locked in a basement, far away from the project.

The Rogerer

December 20th, 2009, 4:00 PM

Second City Saint

December 20th, 2009, 4:03 PM

Does no one want Shadows of the Empire done? I have no interest seeing the classics re-cast or anything, but it's a shame that Dash Rendar never hit the screen.

One Man Gang

December 20th, 2009, 4:06 PM

Shadows of the Empire, while a great video game, was one of many books before the OT that tried to dismantle Vader and the Emperor by having them overshadowed by another more crafty villain. So I'm not sure how well that would translate.

Atty

December 20th, 2009, 4:08 PM

KOTOR could have made a fantastic arc for a new series. Spoilered for reasons of MASSIVE game spoilers.

Start on Taris, like the game. You meet the characters and it covers there escape while Darth Malak destroys the surface of the planet. The force is exceptionally strong in this stranger (the main character) so they train him. The movie ends with him freeing the slave Wookies on Kashyyyk and our main character killing Darth Malak's apprentice in a duel while tapped on the forest floor.

The second movie would then build to the reveal that the main character, this strange but exceptionally powerful new Jedi is actually Darth Reven, Malak's former master. The Jedi erased his mind after Malak betrayed him and we get an Empire type of moment that turns everything on it's head. Malak and Revan fight to a standstill and Bastilla (Revan's Jedi love interest and another main character) is taken captive by Malak.

The third movie would then cover Revan's dark redemption and his search for Bastilla. Revan goes to Korriban and massacres the Sith on the surface to signal his return and rally any forces still loyal to him into opposing Malak. It builds up to the battle in the unknown system with the Star Forge, the slaughter in the temple, and the final showdown in the Forge itself, with Revan killing Malak in a fight to save the galaxy.

That stuff from the first game could really make a fantastic 4, 5 and 6 for a new series of stories. There's a lot in the Star Wars mythos that can be explored and, for a new series, I'd rather see something totally unique to what we've had in the past.

I'd love a proper prequel reboot, but can't see it happening while Lucas is alive.

The_Mike

December 20th, 2009, 4:24 PM

They should make them about the Clone Wars. I remember being young and hearing that another trilogy about the Clone Wars was coming miles away in the future in 1999. Then it came, and you had the jedi being exterminated which lasted about 70 seconds of each jedi being killed by a few grunts.

That wasn't the Clone Wars, the end of Episode II and all of Episode III up to Order 66 (plus the films and cartoon series in between) were the Clone Wars. I don't feel like seeing any more of that, especially since it turned out they weren't anything like we imagined from Obi-Wan's line in ANH. If they made a proper war film set during the Clone Wars, though, I'd be interested in seeing it, but it would have to offer a lot more than just big CGI battles.

Does no one want Shadows of the Empire done? I have no interest seeing the classics re-cast or anything, but it's a shame that Dash Rendar never hit the screen.

I guess they'd have to recast Luke, Leia and Lando but I think they could get away with the rest. It was a pretty good story, but I'm not sure if it'd be worth constructing a movie around. I don't remember it that well, though.

KotoR would probably be a pretty good film. Not sure if I can see it being stretched across three, but it's a baseline for a new story, no doubt. Just thinking about the opening makes me feel like playing it again. It was so very Star Wars, and so very unlike the opening to TPM, with two Jedi having a cup of tea.

Atty

December 22nd, 2009, 8:04 PM

One Man Gang

December 22nd, 2009, 8:11 PM

So I guess they're going to parody all six star wars films then?

Atty

December 22nd, 2009, 8:24 PM

Meg will be Jar Jar. I guarantee it.

Excel

December 22nd, 2009, 8:25 PM

Definately doing Jedi later this season. Dont know about the prequels

Second City Saint

December 22nd, 2009, 10:37 PM

They should just do a legit version of the prequels...since the theatrical ones were already like a parody any way.

Cewsh

December 22nd, 2009, 10:50 PM

They should just do a legit version of the prequels...since the theatrical ones were already like a parody any way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoaofHh7bp4&feature=related

Second City Saint

December 23rd, 2009, 7:08 PM

The prequels are on right now...

I've nothing better to do and I'm a glutton for punishment so I think I will watch (with the B's game sandwiched in between).

Hero!

December 23rd, 2009, 8:10 PM

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/nostalgia-critic/15087-swchr

the nostalgia critic reviews The Star Wars Christmas Special.

Fro

December 23rd, 2009, 9:56 PM

What the hell are those red rotating walls of static that they have to wait for in the Darth Maul light saber battle?

Atty

December 23rd, 2009, 10:34 PM

Force fields of plot convenience, that's what they are. ;)

While I love that duel and the amazing music during it, the setting really was ridiculous. All those generators(?) and such in the palace? It always has seemed odd to me and felt like they were just trying to copy the tractor beam generator on the Death Star. At least to me it felt that way.

Second City Saint

December 23rd, 2009, 10:53 PM

The whining has started...

Fro

December 23rd, 2009, 11:03 PM

It started around 10 years ago

Second City Saint

December 23rd, 2009, 11:05 PM

I meant Anakin's whining in Episode II had commenced (watching the movie currently).

Fro

December 23rd, 2009, 11:08 PM

Oh haha yea me too.

Damn Padme totally shits on Anakin there ("he's just a padwan") what the hell does he see in her

Second City Saint

December 23rd, 2009, 11:25 PM

The falling in love scenes with Anakin & Padme are extremely out of place in a Star Wars film and come across as entirely contrived/unrealistic.

Thumbs down to lil Boba Fett, too :no:

Atty

December 24th, 2009, 4:54 AM

All I can say is "Thank God that Lucas didn't direct Empire." The stuff that Kershner changed, in terms of dialogue, is the same kind of piss that Panda Bear and Anakin spit out in Episode II. What I don't understand is how Lucas could think, watching it repeatedly in production, that crap like "I hate the sand" or anything else said was compelling dialogue for a romance. I really can't see how he wouldn't have reshot or even cut a lot of that stuff after seeing how crap it was.

Episode II is exceedingly frustrating for me. This isn't because it's the worst movie but because it's the biggest missed opportunity. The plot outline is not bad at all, it's just horribly executed. The structure of Obi Wan tracking down Jango Fett and leading him to Kamino and Dooku is actually a very good one that makes for a lot of action sequences. The shame is that the Anakin side of the tale is complete shit. Him and Padme goofing off in the safety of Naboo is not interesting. Neither is Anakin being a massive and creepy pussy.

Whereas Episode I's problems would merit a total re-write to fix, II's problems really wouldn't. In the hands of a more capable director, one willing to change George's dialogue and tweak some bits of the script, that film would have been massively different. Just axing the return to Naboo and having Anakin take her directly to Mommy would have done wonders. There's really nothing to the Naboo bit and it's just wasted time with crappy dialogue.

One thing that still and always will infuriate me is when Padme gets up in the sand and tells the Stormtroopers that they "have to get to that hanger." How does she know about the hanger? How does she know they're there?

The_Mike

December 24th, 2009, 9:47 AM

Just axing the return to Naboo and having Anakin take her directly to Mommy would have done wonders. There's really nothing to the Naboo bit and it's just wasted time with crappy dialogue.

One thing that still and always will infuriate me is when Padme gets up in the sand and tells the Stormtroopers that they "have to get to that hanger." How does she know about the hanger? How does she know they're there?

Yes on both counts. Anakin took Padme to Naboo ostensibly to get her out of the way of recurring assassination attempts, so his genius plan is to take her home. You know, where everybody knows your name. She's not exactly going to be any safer there, even when she eventually goes to her supposedly secret lake retreat which she also spent much time at as a child and details such in the dialogue, because if the assassins are able to get on board her ship and plant a bomb, they're going to be able to find both her real home and her retreat. Going to some desert rock in the middle of nowhere would be a far smarter move. And why did the bomb not go off until the ship landed? Surely it would be a better idea to explode in space where no one will survive?

I did always wonder where Padme got the clairvoyance to know where Obi-Wan, Anakin and Dooku had headed after falling out of a gunship and rolling around in the sand. Maybe hitting her head gave her the Force. Still, I thought Jedi could lift objects with their brain? Why couldn't Anakin or Obi-Wan have just slowed her descent instead of Ani bitching and Obi-Wan seeming entirely unconcerned that a good friend of ten years just fell out of a speeding craft?

Personally, I would rather have seen Episode II rewritten entirely. Obi-Wan's scenes were probably the best part of the film, true, but he spent far too much time on this sleuthing quest and away from Anakin, undermining the relationship we were supposed to see between them that would finally break our hearts when they fight in Episode III. With The Phantom Menace having Obi-Wan seem vaguely annoyed by Anakin and nothing more, Episode II had to make up for lost time and just ended up wasting even more.

Atty

December 24th, 2009, 3:12 PM

Personally, I would rather have seen Episode II rewritten entirely.

I'd rather all the prequels be totally rewritten. ;)

It always seemed so dickish of the Jedi to blow off Anakin's fears of his mother. They should have sent him and Panda Bear to Tatooine to a) check on his mother and b) to keep her off the grid, where no one would find her.

The prequels were just wasted time. There was no real story that Lucas wanted to tell that we didn't already know. They explained a lot of things that should never have been explained, while leaving split ends and holes behind that never should have been there in the first place. Sifo Dyas? So little that was actually productive was done in I and II that they had to shove a lot into Episode III—more than the film should have had.

One Man Gang

December 24th, 2009, 3:26 PM

The Sifo-Dyas thing was awful. First off, in the movie, its horribly explained that the real Dyas was dead before the order was placed so someone used his name.

Why would someone use the name of a dead Jedi? You could choose any name in the galaxy and you choose the name of a guy who the Jedi know died before the order was placed? My best theory on this was that someone was going to try and frame the Jedi for the war. It wouldn't look good to the galaxy if a Jedi ordered the clone army 10 years before it was needed.

But then the entire subplot is dropped. I'm not even sure if the Jedi ever find out who specifically ordered the army and the details surrounding it let alone the Galactic Senate.

Another point about it that was written badly in my opinion was the name and details known about the character. Its a Jedi killed over 10 years ago who Obi-Wan apparently knew. The casual audience members probably thought of Qui-Gon Jinn but couldn't remember his name. Why didn't George make it Qui-Gon? Dooku (his former master) using the name of his dead apprentice to order a clone army would have put serious doubts in Obi-Wan. Especially during the convo Dooku and Obi-Wan have later where Dooku says Qui-Gon might have joined him.

Atty

December 24th, 2009, 4:42 PM

Qui Gon's name being used to order the clone army would have been wonderful. Not only would it make sense (and make Dooku more of a bastard) but, done properly, he could have had us doubting Qui Gon leading into Episode III, going back to I and looking for hints, et al.

Empire's on right now and the Empire is attacking Hoth. This battle and the one in the Death Star trench highlights what's wrong with the prequel battles. In the original trilogy, the battles were somewhat simple and much less cluttered. The audience could easily see what is going on and everything's straight forward. The prequels had a lot more fancy shit flying around, but it wasn't something that the audience could follow in a way that got them into the story.

Second City Saint

December 24th, 2009, 4:45 PM

Why don't more holidays feature Star Wars marathons?

Atty

December 24th, 2009, 5:03 PM

I could run my own dvd marathon, but it would only feature four of the films.

The Rogerer

December 24th, 2009, 5:19 PM

Take out one and I'll come over.

Atty

December 24th, 2009, 7:02 PM

I must be granted the right to laugh my ass off to "UNLIMITED POWER" and Anakin's insanely comical delivery right after. I'd probably fast forward the Obi/Ani duel as the Palpy/Yoda fight is much more interesting.

That's all I watch anymore from Episode III. Oh, and the landing at the beginning.

mr sabu

December 24th, 2009, 7:43 PM

this is going a little bit off topic. but i must say this anyway.

my work coridinator. whos in his 50's

has never seen any of the star wars films

Vice

December 24th, 2009, 7:48 PM

Second City Saint

December 24th, 2009, 11:58 PM

My personal fav

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jmn4UT5UPo

Atty

December 25th, 2009, 1:52 AM

:lol:

That's another one I never really got: why does Anakin hate Obi-Wan? It's like there was a scene missing somewhere. Anakin goes crazy, beats his wife and, after getting his ass kicked, declares his hate for Kenobi. It was just "me evil now, me hate you" without the right development. I know it's a lot to ask for actual character development from the prequels, but Anakin's fall to evil is the story they were to tell and what Lucas showed didn't explain his hate for his friend. Using Sidious to protect his wife was a cool idea, but it doesn't explain why he'd suddenly hate his BFF or why he'd stay loyal to The Emperor after she died.

I actually like A LOT of Episode III. There are some bits missing, like that piece of character development, but it's the only film of the prequels that actually feels like Star Wars to me. Would have liked a touch less action and more character work. The final duel is also far too choreographed as I thought it would be more chaotic with Anakin using the dark side, like from the end of Jedi when Luke taps into the dark side and just wails on Vader. Would have liked something like that rather than floating over lava on platforms. Anakin should have been trying to kill him, not do flips for 12 minutes.

Cewsh

December 25th, 2009, 2:06 AM

I thought that the tension between them was simmering all through the movie.

Anakin thought Obi Wan was holding him back, and while the respect he had for him held his jealousy and bitterness in check, once he gave into his emotions, he couldn't control them. He saw Obi Wan as the obstacle keeping him from being the most powerful Jedi in the universe.

Second City Saint

December 25th, 2009, 2:17 AM

Atty

December 25th, 2009, 10:16 AM

Anakin was a spoiled teenager in Episode II and they were all buddy-buddy in the first half of III. Particularly after the beginning of III, where Anakin taps into the dark side after Dooku throws Obi Wan around, to defend his friend. It goes from "Goodbye old friend" to "I H8Z U!"

Excel

December 25th, 2009, 11:52 AM

Letsnot forget that Anakin believes Obi-Wan had turned Padme against him, and was already feeling some serious resentment of the Jedi Ordder for the way they handle things. Infact, remember when Anakin said "Obi-Wans been here hasn't he" to Padme, before he turned, it was almost like he was suspecting them of having an affair. there was definately an undertone of resentment of kenobi and mistrust.

The_Mike

December 25th, 2009, 1:42 PM

The final duel is also far too choreographed as I thought it would be more chaotic with Anakin using the dark side, like from the end of Jedi when Luke taps into the dark side and just wails on Vader. Would have liked something like that rather than floating over lava on platforms. Anakin should have been trying to kill him, not do flips for 12 minutes.

Absolutely. All the fighting in the prequels seems far, far too polished and choreographed. The only bit that doesn't feel like outright ballet is where Maul smacks Qui-Gon in the nose and kills him. The duels are flashy and impressive, but there's nothing worth watching after the first time or two, because they are devoid of emotion. I feel like tuning out for the next ten minutes or however long it lasts, and the battles never feel particularly desperate or claustrophobic, just colourful, chaotic messes that you can barely see, and I never feel anything for a single character outside the main party. Where are the Porkins and Wedges of the PT?

Letsnot forget that Anakin believes Obi-Wan had turned Padme against him, and was already feeling some serious resentment of the Jedi Ordder for the way they handle things. Infact, remember when Anakin said "Obi-Wans been here hasn't he" to Padme, before he turned, it was almost like he was suspecting them of having an affair. there was definately an undertone of resentment of kenobi and mistrust.

In the novelisation, he explicitly was suspicious of them having an affair, a suggestion which Palpatine helps nudge along. Anakin can sense they are colluding about something, not realising Obi-Wan is helping Padme and others form the Rebellion, and of course all the Rebellion scenes were cut from the movie, because we needed more time for R2's wacky antics. It is said the rough cut of the opening battle was over 45 minutes long before Lucas had to trim it down. Who the hell writes a 45 minute introductory battle to a two hour movie when you spent the last two movies answering nothing and creating more questions? And I agree that Anakin seemed to jump to suddenly hating Obi-Wan and blaming him for everything with little provocation. The Jedi in general had been utter dicks to him for twelve years but what did Obi-Wan do? Anakin accuses him of turning Padme against him but it just seems like a convenient catalyst, outside of one other suspicious line and one line about Obi-Wan holding Anakin back (whilst Padme holds him in her arms to comfort him for having butchered an entire village) way back in Episode II, I see nothing but affection on screen between the characters. Anakin decides to go rushing off to rescue Kenobi and almost get himself and Padme killed (and steals Threepio in the process) about one minute after burying his mother.

Qui-Gon as Sifo Dyas (stupid, stupid name that caused no end of confusion and suspicion with regards to Sidious then turned out to be utterly irrelevant) would have been a great stroke to rescue that sub plot, and would have made Dooku's offer seem something beyond a token "sith try to seduce people" sort of moment and give it actual meaning.

Atty

December 25th, 2009, 8:53 PM

Totally agree, Mike. Qui Gon as Syfo Dyas would have been a brilliant way to have Dooku test Obi Wan's faith in his "interrogation" scene in Episode II. It also could have been a cool thing for the Emperor to throw Anakin's way, even if it ended up to be totally false.

I've never understood why they cut out Anakin accusing Obi Wan of boning Padme. Sidious feeding his confusion could have been brilliant way to show Anakin manipulated into a web of lies to further his anger. Moreso.

In terms of duels being overly fancy hurting it, the key example for me is Anakin/Obi Wan. There's this one point where they're in hyper mode and stop connecting and hust spinning the sabers around in fast forward missing each other. Every single time that makes me wonder why one doesn't slash the other. I mean, it makes sense that Obi Wan wouldn't want to cut Anakin down but, surely, the newly minted Vader would be trying for the kill. Luke snapping at the end of Jedi and just trying to kill Vader spoiled me, I guess. ;)

The other little thing that my roommate (who wasn't a SW fan) and I used to both wonder about is why Obi Wan and Yoda didn't go after them again. They both basically won their duels, while not killing the Sith, and it seemed odd that they'd run off to hide. I figured, when we started to hear that Yoda would fight The Emperor, that he was going to get his little green ass kicked to explain why he'd be so weary of The Emperor and not make another attempt in the 20 years between the trilogies. I know, it's nitpicking, but it's always felt odd to me that they'd let the Empire's power expand if they were strong enough to beat them right away. Either that or a scene of Vader, in the mechanical body, unleashing his power on both and sending them into retreat.

brethart4ever

December 26th, 2009, 12:38 AM

Maybe it had something to do with them feeling the weight of creating the strength of the empire in the first place with a lack of communication and trust.

I always wondered the same thing though. Clearly at least Obi Wan won his duel.

The_Mike

December 26th, 2009, 10:39 AM

Clearly at least Obi Wan won his duel.

He did, but he won because Anakin made one exceptionally stupid mistake and was so rash and irrational for the rest of the fight. With Padme gone and nothing but victory to fight for, Vader may have been much more difficult to defeat, though at that point I imagine Obi-Wan himself would not hold back any more either.

I suppose they never made another attempt because if they died, who would train Luke and Leia? One alone would not be strong enough to take on Vader and the Emperor, and if they're both killed, the galaxy is screwed. At least with Luke and Leia they have two Jedi who share Anakin's blood and are likely powerful enough to deal with him. Though you would think one of them would make some effort to stop Leia from going insanely reckless things like joining the rebellion, but no one seemed to be keeping an eye on her at all.

brethart4ever

December 26th, 2009, 11:17 AM

He did, but he won because Anakin made one exceptionally stupid mistake and was so rash and irrational for the rest of the fight. With Padme gone and nothing but victory to fight for, Vader may have been much more difficult to defeat, though at that point I imagine Obi-Wan himself would not hold back any more either.

I suppose they never made another attempt because if they died, who would train Luke and Leia? One alone would not be strong enough to take on Vader and the Emperor, and if they're both killed, the galaxy is screwed. At least with Luke and Leia they have two Jedi who share Anakin's blood and are likely powerful enough to deal with him. Though you would think one of them would make some effort to stop Leia from going insanely reckless things like joining the rebellion, but no one seemed to be keeping an eye on her at all.

I was surprised at how evenly matched Obi-Wan and Anakin were. Are we are to assume that Anakin became much more powerful as Darth Vader? Its hard to judge since they still seemed to be evenly matched when dueling as their older selves in A New Hope. That being said, who is the most powerful Jedi? Me and my friends have debated this before and I'm wondering if it has been said definitively.

I never really understood why Yoda went into complete seclusion and could not help at all. If as you say they never attacked again to ensure the training of Luke and Leia I wonder why Yoda didn't at least keep an eye out or remain in close proximity.

The_Mike

December 26th, 2009, 11:24 AM

In the books it is said Yoda leaves for Dagobah because it is so densely packed with life forms and the Force that no one could detect him, and I suppose he was powerful enough that the Emperor would be keeping an eye out for him, so to speak. While there he trained to disappear into the Force at death, guided by Qui-Gon, who somehow learned to become one with the Force without disappearing, but Obi-Wan managed to learn too and he still kept an eye on one of the twins.

As for who was more powerful, I was also surprised how evenly matched the pair appeared to be. Anakin was obviously not in his right mind, which would have affected his performance, but the guy is supposed to be off the charts powerful and born of the Force itself, he should have hammered Obi-Wan or any Jedi save perhaps Yoda.

brethart4ever

December 26th, 2009, 11:49 AM

Is there ever a reason given for why Yoda is such a powerful mofo?

Also, is there any truth to the rumblings I've heard over the years about more star wars movies (episode 7 etc)?

The Rogerer

December 26th, 2009, 12:36 PM

That wasn't the Clone Wars, the end of Episode II and all of Episode III up to Order 66 (plus the films and cartoon series in between) were the Clone Wars. I don't feel like seeing any more of that, especially since it turned out they weren't anything like we imagined from Obi-Wan's line in ANH. If they made a proper war film set during the Clone Wars, though, I'd be interested in seeing it, but it would have to offer a lot more than just big CGI battles.[/I].I was being facetious, but you get me. I haven't watched any of the films since I saw them at the cinema, all I remember about the end of Episode II was a massive battle in that arena following a stupid bit in a droid factory.

I was basically comparing my young imagining of the prequels, with epic, exciting battles between jedi - perhaps a war between jedi and sith lords, but the whole thing amounted to Order 66. I'm sure the joke has been made before, maybe it was a homage to Plan 9 from Outer Space, in being awful. Possibly the biggest dropped ball in the history of cinema.

The Rogerer

December 26th, 2009, 12:42 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaqxIXs_mn4

The end of the battle in Episode 3 reminded me of this, from 1:20 onward.

Atty

December 26th, 2009, 4:49 PM

Something else that I think they really missed the ball on was using OT tech in the prequels. Rather than showing the evolution towards X-Wings at the start of Episode III, it would have been a bigger mark out moment for the audience to see Anakin and Obi Wan in X-Wings. They wouldn't have gotten to market different toys then but it would have been one of those little touches of nostalgia that brings the audience into the movie. In fact, I'd loved to have seen the Republic using future rebel tech throughout the prequels. That way it makes it that the rebel scum is using massively outdated tech in the OT, but we see it as modern tech in the prequels.

Just look at the reaction the blockaide runner always gets in Episode III...

Second City Saint

December 26th, 2009, 5:34 PM

I always wondered why the technology in the prequels seems on par (if not superior) to that in the originals. If the reign of the galactic empire was presented as a space age dark age rather than outter space fascism it would be acceptable. Look, I know that filming limitations probably hindered Lucas' ability to present the Star Wars universe the way he wanted to in the '70s and the advancements made by the time the prequels were under way seemed to good to pass up; but I think you have a responsibility to logically show that the there was progression in technology between episodes III & IV given the gap of time.

Excel

December 28th, 2009, 6:40 PM

What makes you think the technology in the sequels isnt better than the prequels?

One Man Gang

December 29th, 2009, 6:23 PM

It's a perception thing. R2-D2 has rockets in the prequels but in the OT, where rockets would have come in handy, he doesn't seem to have them. Jango Fett appears to have more clever gadgets than Boba Fett. The Droidekas have force fields and are only destroyed by aircraft with large guns. There are many places in the OT where they would have come in handy to the Empire.

But on the other hand the prequels didn't have a working Death Star, who knows what a thermal detonator can do, and I don't remember hearing about or seeing any cloaking devices in the PT.

Though I bet Jabba the Hutt wishes he had explosive devices implanted in his sex slaves instead of having them linked to chains around his neck. :lol:

Atty

December 29th, 2009, 6:26 PM

Explosive devices? That's just silly...

Oh. Right.

Bill Casey

December 29th, 2009, 6:29 PM

I bet Darth Vader wishes his cybernetic implants were as nimble and dextrous as Grievous's. Imagine Luke and Vader with spinny hands, and Vader with jumpy legs...

And I bet the empire wishes that their probe droids were tiny and fast like Maul's...

One Man Gang

December 29th, 2009, 6:31 PM

Who needs probe droids when you have this guy?

http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.tk899.com/whitearmor/images/garindan7.jpg&usg=AFQjCNFAIdLLD3FJ2Jd_2L7nCejZDk6AZw

STEALTHY!!

virus21

December 29th, 2009, 6:34 PM

Is there ever a reason given for why Yoda is such a powerful mofo?

Age I suppose, he did say that he was 900 years old

Atty

December 29th, 2009, 6:34 PM

Snuffalupicus!

Jimmy Zero

December 29th, 2009, 6:41 PM

Does anyone know if/when the original trilogy will be put on Bluray?

Sorry, if this has been covered in this thread already.

Atty

December 29th, 2009, 6:49 PM

It hasn't been announced for blu-ray yet. I'm on all the waiting/notification lists for when it's announced, but nothing yet.

Lucas took forever to release them on DVD (and altered a bunch of stuff again.) I figure the same will be true here. I'm hoping he does what the later DVD releases did and include the latest revisions alongside the original cuts.

Second City Saint

December 29th, 2009, 6:49 PM

One Man Gang

December 29th, 2009, 6:51 PM

It also had one serious flaw. The second one, in OT designing, engineering and parts corrected that.

Second City Saint

December 29th, 2009, 6:53 PM

I'd venture to say the second death star's shield generator susceptibility was a greater flaw, especially when you consider that it took a force sensitive being to destroy the original. But I suppose that's up to debate.

One Man Gang

December 29th, 2009, 6:55 PM

Well clearly the Emperor of the PT was more advanced than the Emperor of the OT in that the Emperor of the PT would never have allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator.

virus21

December 29th, 2009, 6:59 PM

Well clearly the Emperor of the PT was more advanced than the Emperor of the OT in that the Emperor of the PT would never have allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator.

Except it was a trap. Palpetine wanted the alliance to come, figuring that they couldn't resist attacking and destroying the Death Star, especially with him on it.

Atty

December 29th, 2009, 7:01 PM

Palpatine's that guy who insists everything is going according to plan, when nothing is.

One Man Gang

December 29th, 2009, 7:05 PM

Except it was a trap. Palpetine wanted the alliance to come, figuring that they couldn't resist attacking and destroying the Death Star, especially with him on it.

You missed the humorous nature of my last post.

Second City Saint

December 29th, 2009, 7:24 PM

IT'S A TRAP!

One Man Gang

December 30th, 2009, 3:03 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veANUQuwa3Y&feature=related

Bill Casey

December 30th, 2009, 4:13 AM

Palpatine's that guy who insists everything is going according to plan, when nothing is.
I don't know, things were going pretty well until he was thrown off a ledge by the guy he literally just stabbed in the back five minutes ago and then turned away from, and his army was beaten by a bunch of teddy bears with down's syndrome and sticks...

It worked out pretty well for Darth Vader, too. He choked his wife to death, slaughtered a bunch of children, ordered the big laser genocide of earmuffhead's planet and all he had to do to redeem himself was to throw an old man (who just tried to get someone to kill him) off a space cliff...

Atty

December 30th, 2009, 4:25 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veANUQuwa3Y&feature=related

Beautiful video.

I've mentioned this before, but the more I think about it, The Emperor vs. Yoda should have been the first time we saw either duel with a lightsaber. When the Jedi go to arrest him, as soon as he lights up the red blade I'd cut to Anakin on his way to rescue Palpers. We (the audience) then enter the office with Anakin and see wasted Jedi corpses and find Windu threatening to kill the old man.

Yoda and Sidious rocking sabers could and should have been a really special type of thing, but seeing both duel prior hurt it for me. We knew both could do flippies and crazy shit, but it would have been off the charts to be seeing that for the first time there. Yoda chopping off the Stormtrooper's head is the perfect debut for him with a saber but, in terms of dueling, I'd rather it just have been Yoda vs. The Emperor.

Don't know why that video made me think of that, but it did.

Atty

December 30th, 2009, 4:33 AM

I don't know, things were going pretty well until he was thrown off a ledge by the guy he literally just stabbed in the back five minutes ago and then turned away from, and his army was beaten by a bunch of teddy bears with down's syndrome and sticks...

It worked out pretty well for Darth Vader, too. He choked his wife to death, slaughtered a bunch of children, ordered the big laser genocide of earmuffhead's planet and all he had to do to redeem himself was to throw an old man (who just tried to get someone to kill him) off a space cliff...

:lol:

I'm more talking about "we have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker" followed by Vader talking him into letting him turn him and then declaring that everything is going according to plan even though it's not.

Or when Luke's on Endor. Vader knows but The Emperor doesn't and can't sense him. He then says that everything's going as he's foreseen when it's clearly not. I got the same vibe from Episode I with the treaty he wanted signed. If it had been signed, the Chancellor would never have been removed and he'd not have gained power.

He was brilliant in Episode III, but that's a pattern that has stuck out to me. A random Sidious question for discussion here would be: Did The Emperor know that Vader would be crippled by Obi Wan when he sent him to Mustafar? Discuss.

Bill Casey

December 30th, 2009, 5:03 AM

I'm more talking about "we have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker" followed by Vader talking him into letting him turn him and then declaring that everything is going according to plan even though it's not.
"According to plan" just means the things that are happening are working fine with the current plan, which is about trapping and crushing the rebel alliance. It doesn't mean every little detail is meticulously planned out; their plan can succeed a lot of different ways...

"Everything is going according to plan", is the same as "Nothing is fucking up the plan"...

Atty

December 30th, 2009, 5:08 AM

And "everything" right before that means? ;)

brethart4ever

December 30th, 2009, 10:50 AM

Beautiful video.

I've mentioned this before, but the more I think about it, The Emperor vs. Yoda should have been the first time we saw either duel with a lightsaber. When the Jedi go to arrest him, as soon as he lights up the red blade I'd cut to Anakin on his way to rescue Palpers. We (the audience) then enter the office with Anakin and see wasted Jedi corpses and find Windu threatening to kill the old man.

Yoda and Sidious rocking sabers could and should have been a really special type of thing, but seeing both duel prior hurt it for me. We knew both could do flippies and crazy shit, but it would have been off the charts to be seeing that for the first time there. Yoda chopping off the Stormtrooper's head is the perfect debut for him with a saber but, in terms of dueling, I'd rather it just have been Yoda vs. The Emperor.

Don't know why that video made me think of that, but it did.

I don't know man. Yoda saving Obi-Wan and Anakin and taking on Dooku in Attack of the Clones was a pretty special moment. The audience in my theater was going crazy.

Atty

December 30th, 2009, 2:45 PM

Yeah, but how crazy would it have been if the first time you saw him do shit like that was against The Emperor and not some guy we just met? Exactly.

It also would have been a better fit for Episode II to have Obi-Wan save Anakin. It would have highlighted his recklessness in a nicer way and been a cool touch (Anakin goes there to save Obi Wan and Kenobi ends up saving him.)

Second City Saint

December 30th, 2009, 4:58 PM

Is it just me or was there a severe lack of alien pilots in star wars? The only one that comes to mind is Plo Koon and the podracers...if that counts.

And I don't mean co-pilots or commanders, just straight up pilots.

mth

December 30th, 2009, 5:15 PM

I'm just going to take a moment to rant about the Sarlaac.

In the original trilogy, it was probably one of my favorite characters/aliens. A gaping, toothy maw in the middle of the desert that just chilled and had folks dumped into it (occasionally using tendrils to drag folks down into it, as well). It was just so simple and badass and frightening.

Then in the special edition, he revamps it and we've got this Muppet beak coming up out of it like Audrey from Little Shop of Horrors, and now it's like the dang chomper plants in Super Mario, plus a whole slew of added tendrils...it's completely different and just feels so much more cliche and less ominous and fearsome.

But, Lucas says, it "just looks much more realistic and more threatening ... it helps the scene considerably." And I couldn't disagree more. I think it does exactly the opposite and makes the creature much more goofy and average.

And apparently subsequent depictions of the Sarlaac in the Star Wars universe from then on are the revised version.

Lame.

Second City Saint

December 30th, 2009, 5:20 PM

The unknown is always more ominous (not to mention fun) so I would certainly agree with you mth.

Excel

December 30th, 2009, 5:21 PM

Audrey II

But yeah, he ruined the Sarlaac for me too. There was something about just this giant mouth in the desert that was downright creepy. Adding that beak gave the sarlaac personallity, and it was far better without it.

mth

December 30th, 2009, 5:24 PM

That's a great point and something I wasn't able to get into words, Excel. The Muppet beak, etc. gave it personality, something it was much more frightening without.

Atty

December 30th, 2009, 5:26 PM

Second City Saint

December 30th, 2009, 5:29 PM

I don't see the logic behind putting young Anakin along side the other two jedi at the end of ROTJ, especially since their ghosts reflect their last living appearance. Having Anakin as a 50(?) year old made sense because that's what he was when he died.

One Man Gang

December 30th, 2009, 5:35 PM

I loved the old Sarlaac too. The beak did absolutely nothing for me. Though it does puzzle me that the creature even made it into ROTJ. If you think about, its another monster in a pit just after the Rancor scene. I mean it makes sense that Jabba and crew would take a field trip to execute some scumbags, on paper though it would have seemed somewhat repetative I think and am surprised they didn't change the beast.

Also, Jabba's palace stuff kinda drags a bit. First 3PO and R2 introduce themselves to Jabba, then Bousch/Leia with Chewbacca, then Luke comes to introduce himself...

Excel

December 30th, 2009, 5:52 PM

I dislike most of the changes Lucas has made over the years. The Jabba scene in ANH, Greedo shooting first, putting goofy robots on Tattooine, Gungans in ROTJ, changing the music at the end of ROTJ, replacing old Anakin at the end of ROTJ, extended CG Jabba music sequences, Replacing Stormtroppers and Boba Fett's voices, Sarlacc and so forth.

Don't even get me started on reshooting the dialogue between Vader and The Emperor in Empire...

Tweaking the effects is one thing. Changing entire bits and dialogue is another.

what was it about the dialogue that bothered you? That was one scene that I thought did need to be redone, but the dialogue change didnt bother me either.

Also, I was quite fine with them redoing Boba Fetts voice. Made sense to do it. I also liked them using CG to open up the claustrophobic sets of cloud city.

There are actually some good examples of where the special edition changes were for the better.

Atty

December 30th, 2009, 5:56 PM

CG in Cloud City I was fine with.

The dialogue between Vader and Palpers changes the scene. It also seems odd to have Vader not know Anakin's offspring is out there when he earlier says "That's it. The Rebels are there and I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

One Man Gang

December 30th, 2009, 5:58 PM

Well given the fact that Vader almost betrays the Emperor at the end of Empire, I can see where he'd let the Emperor bring up Skywalker before he does.

Atty

December 30th, 2009, 6:02 PM

Well given the fact that Vader almost betrays the Emperor at the end of Empire, I can see where he'd let the Emperor bring up Skywalker before he does.

True, but the original dialogue is much better. They were right to replace monkey eyes but, like most recent Lucas dialogue, the new lines just don't play right for me.

Next, Lucas will add in the sappy Han-Leia snuggle woggle talk that Kerschner cut out for going totally against character. :scared:

Excel

December 30th, 2009, 6:06 PM

Oh yeah, I remember, that does bother me with Vader saying he knows it's Skywalker, then pretending that its impossible that it could be Skywalker when the Emperor comes asking questions.

One Man Gang

December 30th, 2009, 6:07 PM

For the most part that scene doesn't bother me though there are two things I'd tweak. The first being the pace in which the emperor speaks. He sounds like he's talking to a 1st grader and making sure he talks slow enough for the kid to understand. The second is covering up his eyes with the hood. While Lucas may want people to watch the films 1 to 6, it still works better with the OT first and then the PT. So when you get a good look at the deformed emperor in jedi, I'd want it to be the first time seeing his hideous face.

Excel

December 31st, 2009, 12:04 PM

There is a...great...disturbance...in the force.

Bill Casey

January 2nd, 2010, 4:41 AM

And "everything" right before that means? ;)
:wtf:

Atty

January 2nd, 2010, 4:59 AM

As in "Everything is going as I have foreseen." Not "this is going vaguely in line with the plan"

One Man Gang

January 2nd, 2010, 5:22 AM

I got atty to watch Ewoks: The Battle For Endor tonight. Classic. Some of those monsters were cursing. I clearly heard "fuck" from the guy playing poker.

Atty

January 2nd, 2010, 5:36 AM

That movie has more paedos in it than the asylum. Wilford Brimley was clearly trying to do horrible things to the kid for the whole movie and I'm surprised he didn't try to lure him into his gingerbread house (assuming he had one.) I can only imagine what that sick freak did to the child after he locked her on his spaceship and flew off never to be heard from again.

I'm also pretty sure Wicket is actually much older than he lets on and a ravenous paedo bear.

Bill Casey

January 2nd, 2010, 3:12 PM

As in "Everything is going as I have foreseen." Not "this is going vaguely in line with the plan"

Now you're talking about a completely different line, and a completely different thing...

Atty

January 2nd, 2010, 4:21 PM

N3RD!

Bill Casey

January 3rd, 2010, 1:30 AM

Oh yeah?
Well...

N1ST!

Take that...
My N is two Ns faster than your N, so yeah...

Second City Saint

January 3rd, 2010, 1:34 AM

http://www.rebelroleplayersalliance.org/Fusebox%5CImg%5CSWNewHope/DrEvazan.jpg

He doesn't like you...

Atty

January 3rd, 2010, 1:56 AM

I have the death sentence in 12 syst3ms.

Second City Saint

January 3rd, 2010, 2:01 AM

That is the Star Wars equivalent of a permaban.

One Man Gang

January 3rd, 2010, 11:48 PM

Speaking of permabans in the star wars universe, I think we should have seen Jango disintegrate someone. Zam Wesell would have been good.

Atty

January 4th, 2010, 12:02 AM

Jango Fett? Jango Jett? WHERE?!

Second City Saint

January 4th, 2010, 12:19 AM

Had a slight weapons malfunction, but everything's perfectly alright now. We're fine, we're all fine, here, now, thank you. How are you?

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff51/Dark_Ambika/Star%20Wars/Wookieepedia/Han3_edited.jpg

One Man Gang

January 4th, 2010, 12:19 AM

Ambu Fett? Ambu Fett? WHERE?!

Second City Saint

January 4th, 2010, 12:21 AM

HAN SOLO FFS

Bill Casey

January 4th, 2010, 12:43 AM

I was watching the special features of episode two, and George Lucas is sitting there talking about how labored Yoda should be. He was telling everyone that Yoda should be out of breath just walking across the room, and to slow down all of his movements. And some other guy is talking about how Frank Oz made Yoda like that and how it brought life to the character and all this shit...

Then,

George Lucas wants him to fight like "The illegitimate child of Kermit and Miss Piggy" jumping ten feet through the air and keeps telling everyone to speed him up and do all of this kung fu Clint Eastwood bullshit...

And on the special features, this is like five minutes from when he was explaining to them that Yoda should barely be able to move...

I don't even have words for it. It's just mind bottling...

Second City Saint

January 4th, 2010, 12:50 AM

I can actually see the logic behind that as while he's fighting the force is no doubt flowing through him like crazy.

Sorry to defend Episode II :ashamed:

virms

January 4th, 2010, 3:17 AM

Sounds pretty good to me. Fucking fanboys going round ruining everything. Assholes.

The_Mike

January 4th, 2010, 10:20 AM

Speaking of permabans in the star wars universe, I think we should have seen Jango disintegrate someone. Zam Wesell would have been good.

Yeah, that would have been a nice touch, and would have made sense. To absolutely ensure Zam couldn't talk a disintegration would have been pretty effective. Plus maybe without the dart, we could have avoided the scene in Dex's Diner. I really didn't like that scene for some reason, even the first time I saw it.

I can actually see the logic behind that as while he's fighting the force is no doubt flowing through him like crazy.

Yeah I can see the logic there as well. Yoda's disciplined enough to allow his age to catch up with him in any regular setting, but if kick ass he must, kick ass he shall. Totally agree with all the suggestions that he should have not been seen fighting until going mental on the Emperor though. His fight with Dooku in II was entirely unnecessary, except it was the only highlight in the film, and without that moment of awe, Episode II probably would have felt even worse.

I happened to see the latter half or so of the Clone Wars movie yesterday. Ugh. Words cannot describe it. 'Clone Wars' certainly cannot describe it, either, since most of it seemed to be devoted to Anakin and some Twi'Lek running around, saving the baby of the most ruthless Hutt in the galaxy. Had sod all to do with the Clone Wars. Kind of like Attack of the Clones...

You would think after all that, though, in Return of the Jedi, Jabba might react to meeting a Jedi named Skywalker with something other than "bwahahahaha" and "he is no Jedi".

Second City Saint

January 4th, 2010, 12:09 PM

Plus maybe without the dart, we could have avoided the scene in Dex's Diner. I really didn't like that scene for some reason, even the first time I saw it.
That scene is remarkably out of place in a Star Wars film.

OD50

January 4th, 2010, 12:58 PM

They are showing Episode IV on the tube here in Sweden right now, watching it got me thinking about the rumored Star Wars series that was suposed to take place between episodes III and IV. Anyone heard anything new on this or has it been scrapped?

One Man Gang

January 4th, 2010, 5:16 PM

Its still on. Pre-production officially began last spring. But there's little leaked to show for it. I think we're looking at a 2011/2012 premiere. Since this has been in the works since 2005, I have to confess this process is moving at a snails pace. They've tried to keep our interest with the clone wars cartoons, but frankly its a different medium that most fans are not interested in.

Atty

January 5th, 2010, 3:34 AM

Just a heads up, but George Lucas is going to be on The Daily Show tonight (Tuesday night) at midnight. It'll be re-aired on Wednesday.

Not sure what'll be talked about, but yeah...

OD50

January 5th, 2010, 5:20 AM

Probably an CGI remake of Young Indiana Jones.

grimshaw

January 5th, 2010, 10:43 PM

The diner scene didn't work, but it's not out of place. They were going for the same vibe you see in the Cantina and the rest of Mos Eisley, and it just didn't quite come off is all.

The_Mike

January 6th, 2010, 8:27 PM

The diner scene didn't work, but it's not out of place. They were going for the same vibe you see in the Cantina and the rest of Mos Eisley, and it just didn't quite come off is all.

They already had that in the same film about ten minutes earlier with the Cantina on the lower levels of Coruscant. The diner scene just ended up feeling like Pulp Fiction meets some cartoon with awkward dialogue. Out of place was the phrase I was looking for, myself. Just really didn't seem like part of the Star Wars world and made no sense being fitted into the film.

One Man Gang

January 6th, 2010, 10:42 PM

Every star wars film has a few eating and drinking scenes.

ANH - The Lars Homestead, The Cantina, and the Dianoga trying to eat Luke.

TESB- Wampa eating, Luke and Yoda eating twice on Dagobah, the monster eating R2-D2, the space slug trying to eat the heroes while the Mynocks try to eat the ship, and the Bespin dinner table.

ROTJ - Jabba eating, the Rancor eating Oola, the guard, and trying to eat Luke, the creature outside Jabbas palace eating the other thing, The Sarlacc pitt, Chewie trying to eat the meat in the trap, Leia eating a cracker with Wicket, and the feast in 3PO's honor.

TPM - Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan drink on the TF ship, there's always a bigger fish sequence, Jar Jar eating the thing at the Vendors place, the eating scene in Shmi's home, the apples Anakin and company get from Jira, and Jabba eating during the race.

In AOTC we had...

1) Outlander Nightclub (where people were drinking at least)
2) Dex's Diner (where people were eating and drinking
3) The Refugee ship (where Anakin and Padme ate)
4) Padme's Parents House which was cut (where Padme and Anakin ate dinner)
5) The Lake Retreat (where Padme and Anakin ate)
6) The Lars Homestead (they drank at the table)
7) The Geonosis Arena (which was one big feast for the monsters)

ROTS - A deleted scene where Senators drink, a deleted scene where the Nos Monster tries to eat Obi-Wan, ..... did anybody eat or drink in this movie?

Alf

January 7th, 2010, 6:08 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ_v1jh99t0

The daily show interview with George Lucas...

The_Mike

January 7th, 2010, 12:02 PM

OD50

January 11th, 2010, 2:24 PM

My nephew liked Jar-Jar and the Gungans in The Phantom Menace, he was 8 at the time.

I almost fell out of my chair at the cinema when I saw him for the first time though.

PurePlayer

January 11th, 2010, 3:06 PM

Just watched Episode IV, the first Star Wars film I have ever seen. I liked it enough to watch the rest. I have heard nothing but good things about Episode V so I am looking forward to it. I am reluctant to watch the newer ones though from what I hear.

Alf

January 11th, 2010, 3:13 PM

The old movies did not have the massive flaws running through them that the prequels contain.

Incest.

Second City Saint

January 11th, 2010, 3:33 PM

Who are these children that love Jar-Jar Binks and find the original trilogy boring? Lucas' argument that it's all about nostalgia and we only prefer the old movies because they're old doesn't wash at all. The old movies did not have the massive flaws running through them that the prequels contain. I love that the audience laughed when he even suggested anyone liked Jar-Jar.
Jake Lloyd claimed to loved Jar-Jar in interviews done circa TPM, fucking brat.

Also, I have loads of family that enjoy Star Wars on more than just a 'cool film' level, ages ranging from 'saw ANH in theaters as a kid' to 'RotS came on DVD before birth.' NONE of them like Jar-Jar, the Clone Wars, or anything related to the prequels (Jedi Power Battles for Dreamcast, Podracing for N64, and action figures excluded).

Atty

January 11th, 2010, 3:38 PM

Jake Lloyd is a demon spawn.
Just watched Episode IV, the first Star Wars film I have ever seen. I liked it enough to watch the rest. I have heard nothing but good things about Episode V so I am looking forward to it. I am reluctant to watch the newer ones though from what I hear.

I hate the prequels, aside from the third film which was much better than the other two. That said, I'll be very interested in your reaction to them, as you didn't grow up with the original trilogy.

The_Mike

January 11th, 2010, 6:05 PM

Incest.

It was one kiss which, while we know was actually caused by Lucas lumping for Leia as the 'other' when he couldn't figure out how to squeeze another new character into the Jedi script, wasn't exactly a big problem. Certainly not on the level of the mind-blowing contradictions and screw ups in the PT.

Though you are probably just having a laugh, thought I'd put out the argument anyway.

Jake Lloyd claimed to loved Jar-Jar in interviews done circa TPM, fucking brat.

Bet by the time Clones came out he was pretty damn pissed he didn't get to keep the role...

Also, I have loads of family that enjoy Star Wars on more than just a 'cool film' level, ages ranging from 'saw ANH in theaters as a kid' to 'RotS came on DVD before birth.' NONE of them like Jar-Jar, the Clone Wars, or anything related to the prequels (Jedi Power Battles for Dreamcast, Podracing for N64, and action figures excluded).

Jedi Power Battles was pretty good on the PSOne.

grimshaw

January 11th, 2010, 9:46 PM

Also, I have loads of family that enjoy Star Wars on more than just a 'cool film' level, ages ranging from 'saw ANH in theaters as a kid' to 'RotS came on DVD before birth.' NONE of them like Jar-Jar, the Clone Wars, or anything related to the prequels (Jedi Power Battles for Dreamcast, Podracing for N64, and action figures excluded).

I've never seen it, but never heard anything but good things about the Clone Wars series.

ChocolateThunder

January 12th, 2010, 1:46 AM

There are only two things that I really found awesome about the prequel movies.

1 -- Anakin's reaction when he finds out that his mother dies. The movie came out only a few months after my own mother had passed away and I was filled with very different emotions. Some of which were anger. Anger at the doctors that she had in hospital when she first fell ill who told someone that had had a family history of people passing away through cancer/leukemia that the only thing that they could give her was guaranteed 110% to end up giving her luekemia. As I was present when the doctor said this and knew her immediate response, I still question to this day -- what medicinal product can give someone luekemia?

Anger at my mother for basically giving up and resigning herself to her death following that one piece of advice and not taking the issue further to go and see other specialists, other doctors. She had a skin condition (awful psoriasis) that she allowed to become worse than three-degree burns (to over two thirds of her body) (according to the autopsy people) and allowed it to run her other systems down (dying as an indirect result of the condition because her immune system ended up failing because of it). Also a part of me is angry that as an only child I was forced to give up my years from 18 through my 22nd birthday to take care of her around the clock, although I performed a son's duties and would always do it again if I had to (On a a related note I find it somewhat odd and shocking when people tell me how wonderful that was and that they could never do that, say what? You wouldn't take care of your own mother?). This came right on top of suffering through glandular fever / chronic fatigue that wiped me out from shortly after my 16th birthday to just after she fell ill -- so I ended up not having any important and normal experiences from 16 through 22 (the foundation of the rest of your life, in my opinion - so I'm still behind, a little).

and the other part of the prequel trilogy that I found to be pretty awesome was the first scene of Anakin as Darth Vader.