The Ring of Honor Thread

[Vice]

The old one got big. Not a massive strain on the server due to relatively low levels of activity, but it was still big and took a while to load. So, here's round 2.

Previous thread for old posts:

http://forums.rajah.com/showthread.php?t=76403

Someone get the ball rolling, because I don't really have anything to say.

[Cactus Lem]

Anyone got the results from last night?

[jakeb]

Prince Nana came back!

[chotliwala]

Lem ask and ye shall receive.

1) Ruckus defeats Jason Blade.

2) Sara Del Rey defeats Ariel.

3) Rhett Titus defeats Grizzly Redwood with the Razors Edge. Titus was attacked by Haze afterwords.

4) Brent Albright defeats Jay Briscoe. After the match Albright asks for a match wirh a SNS Inc. member. Sweeney sends him Dempsey. Albright chases Sweeney off.

5) Necro Butcher defeats Mark Briscoe & Delirious with a Tiger Driver on Delirious.

~PRINCE NANA RETURNS! He says he has no more riches, no more crown, and just wants a job. Nana is dragged away by security.

6) Jerry Lynn defeats Claudio Castagnoli with a cradle.

~Attendance is in the 400 range.

7) FIP World Championship: Go Shiozaki defeats Austin Aries with a Go Flasher to retain the FIP Championship.

8) Ironman Match: LAX defeat Kevin Steen & El Generico, Jimmy Jacobs & Tyler Black, and Chris Hero & Davey Richards.

~Tyler Black pins Homicide with a Phoenix Splash to go up 1-0 for AOTF.
~Davey Richards submits Kevin Steen with a half crab for to make it 1 AOFT, 1 SNS Inc.
~Homicide pins Hero with a lariat to make it 1-1-1 with Steenerico 0.
~Homicide pins Jacobs with a Cop Killah to make it 2-1-1-0 LAX and for the win.

[Brian M.]

Prince Nana came back!

This seems like the only thing that matters.

[chotliwala]

Results from tonight.

~Rhett Titus was out signing autographs. Daizee found him and chased him to the back.

Preshow

1) Ernie Osiris & Alex Payne defeat Ninja White & Ninja Yellow when Payne pinned White following a frankensteiner.

2) Vin Gerard defeats Grizzly Redwood with a roll up and grabbing the suspenders.

~Estimated attendance is around 250 right now. Though if last night was any indication, don't start writing ROH's obituary just yet.

Main Show

~Due to an ankle injury, Davey Richards is out tonight.

~Aries and Jacobs are fighting through the crowd.

1) Jimmy Jacobs defeats Austin Aries with a chain and The End Time. Delirious and a new Age of the Fall member come to assist. That man is BRODIE LEE!

2) Brodie Lee & Delirious defeat Cheech & Cloudy with a roll up.

~Rhett Titus is in the ring with a new woman (name not caught). Daizee gets in the ring and bitchslaps Rhett. Daizee wins a short match with this new girl.

~Prince Nana is in the ring! Security escorts Nana out once again.

~Chris Hero will now face Brent Albright later tonight.

3) Kevin Steen & El Generico defeat The Osirian Portal with a Swanton/Splash combo. Steen picked both men up at once and sideslammed them both setting up the finish.

4) FIP World Championship: Go Shiozaki vs. Necro Butcher ends in a double count out after both men brawled in to the crowd.

~Age of the Fall jump Necro after the match and totally annihilates him.

5) Brent Albright defeats Chris Hero with a Crowbar in a "really boring match".

~After the match Albright is attacked by SNS Inc. Albright fights back and runs everyone off. He gets a mic and announces a STEEL CAGE WARFARE match for Final Battle in NYC.

6) The Six Man Mayhem is up. Richards is wrestling in place of Hero ... despite it being announced earlier that he couldn't wrestle tonight because of an ankle injury. Odd.

Davey Richards defeats Claudio Castagnoli, Rhett Titus, Jason Blade, Hallowicked, & Ruckus when he pinned Ruckus following a belly to back suplex. Claudio looked awesome in this match.

7) Tyler Black defeats Jerry Lynn with a Phoenix Splash.

~After the match Tyler took the mic and said the change begins with him, and ends with the World Title.

8) Jay & Mark Briscoe defeat LAX.

But more importantly, a picture of Prince Nana from last night.

http://moneyshot123.110mb.com/images/rohdanbury1024/images/155.jpg

[Fanny Batter]

Gabe's left, apparently. I don't actually think that's a bad thing at all, he's not the best booker ever or anything.

Also the ROH message board is worth reading. Gabe's been like a father figure to me and such :lol:.


"Thank you Gabe, your company restored my faith in wrestling as a sport. Without it, I might have given up on wrestling altogether."

"I'm seriously just at a loss for words right now. I mean I came into this topic (before the name change) expecting to see someone thanking Gabe for a great night of wrestling tonight/this weekend. And then I click on it and the world changes."

[Cewsh]

Gabe left the company?

[chotliwala]

From PWInsider


Ring Of Honor owner Cary Silkin removed Gabe Sapolsky from the head booker's position with the company after last night's event in Edison, NJ. We were told that there wasn't any major blow up, but rather that the company is going in a different direction.

Sapolsky, who has been with ROH since its inception, is now gone from the company completely.

And the beautiful ROH boards


This is the greatest loss that ROH has ever had. Joe, London and Punk don't compare to the exit of Gabe from the company. Something pretty bad must have happened with Carey as it sounds like a termination letter (effective immediately) and a replacement wasn't prepared.


I would like to thank Gabe for restoring my faith in pro wrestling. I caught wind of what he was doing in 05 and have enjoyed the product ever since. I stopped watching wrestling after ECW collapsed, and ROH's style and storylines brought me back. I am not sure how the company moves on from here, but I hope they are able to find a good replacement for him. Whatever the circumstance is I hope it is a positive move for Gabe.

Someone on there even asked if Final Battle would be the last show of ROH ever. Which it better not be since I spent $50 for a January show.

[Cewsh]

Gabe was slowly killing Ring of Honor with bad decisions and biased booking.

He was great, once, and led Ring of Honor to national attention in a way that nobody but Paul Heyman can claim, but he was pretty clearly done, and it was time for him to move on.

[Ringo]

So any news on who'll be the new head booker? Who else has been involved with booking ROH in recent times?

[The_Mike]

Cue the Heyman speculation.

This is interesting though. The termination notice doesn't sound too friendly, and it's rather out of the blue, so I wonder what happened to cause this, if anything specific.

[Cactus Lem]

Cue the Heyman speculation.


I really can't see that happening. Heyman has even stated that he doesn't want to get back into wrestling at the moment.

I'm really not all that shocked to be honest. In a way I'd say this is a wise business move. Just look at the attendances for the weekend, pretty dire compared to what they once pulled in Edison.

ROH has been in need of something fresh for a while now, and this is make or break time, as the company could just die, or it'll hopefully re-build itself and go in a new direction.

Can't deny that Gabe's booked some great stuff over the years though, and provided me with some amazing live moments, it's just ashame that the guy is so obviously out of fresh ideas with his current crop of guys.

I suppose the ROH/FIP relationship will probably die here as well.

I do wonder what Gabe will do now. I know a lot of TNA guys wanted him to come in at some point, and I think he'd be good for the company and create a better booking balance between the old and the young.

[Defrost]

So any news on who'll be the new head booker? Who else has been involved with booking ROH in recent times?

Dave Meltzer specualted a great man in his update on this

Bushwhacker Luke

[Mills]

Fuck it, give it to Raven

[Cewsh]

Dave Meltzer specualted a great man in his update on this

Bushwhacker Luke


Latest News from Dave Meltzer...

Is just as fake as everything else he's ever claimed to know about.

Crazy, right?

[Defrost]

Latest News from Dave Meltzer...

Is just as fake as everything else he's ever claimed to know about.

Crazy, right?

:lol:

I knew this was coming, but even I did not realize how quick you'd be about it.

[Mills]

Can I have my face back Cewsh, you reviewed it off

[Cewsh]

:lol:

I knew this was coming, but even I did not realize how quick you'd be about it.

I'm like a lion stalking the word Meltzer across the forums. ;)


Can I have my face back Cewsh, you reviewed it off

No. It has been forfeited to us as payment for my awesome services.

[Fanny Batter]

Butch is the better booker anyway.

[Mills]

I thought Jamison was underrated in his duties.

[Defrost]

The reason Meltzer said it is because Luke is tight with the owner and is booking down in PR.

[Cewsh]

Oh I know. He uses reasonable theories based on facts everyone knows and presents them as news.

Still, he's as likely a booker option as any, and he'd be a fine transitional booker, but I don't think he's a long term answer.

Then again, I can't think of anybody who would be.

[JAYD]

Gabe was slowly killing Ring of Honor with bad decisions and biased booking.

He was great, once, and led Ring of Honor to national attention in a way that nobody but Paul Heyman can claim, but he was pretty clearly done, and it was time for him to move on.

as i haven't followed roh in probably 2 years, can you expand?

[Brian M.]

This is fantastic news. Perhaps now I can start watching ROH again. I was getting sick of the "Kenny King took Bryan Danielson to the limit, Danielson won with a roll up in 35 minutes, good action, ****!" type reviews. I don't want to watch that shit. I want to watch CZW fucking shit up, the CM Punk leaving storyline, Homicide chasing the title, Jacobs' obsession with Lacey, that kind of stuff. Gabe just hadn't been supplying that in recent months. Maybe the next guy will.

[chotliwala]

Shit that's really true. Kenny King lasting with Danielson for more than five minutes is ridiculous. It was getting harder for me to care and if I wasn't going to shows (or if I didn't have a weird man crush on Nigel) I probably would have stopped like some of you.

[Brian M.]

I really miss going to the shows, because I'm sure they're still great fun live, but I can't justify spending the money to watch a product I don't follow.

Shit, I haven't even watched all of the DVDs I purchased at the last show I attended, which was in June of 2007. I didn't realize how long it's been since I stopped following the product.

[chotliwala]

You've missed a ton, but at the same time you've missed nothing. Tons of Vulture Squad vs. AOTF matches, or AOTF/Briscoes, or NRC/Resilience or Stevens/Strong or Aries/Strong or Briscoes/Steenerico and especially tons of Hero/Claudio. Each of those groupings had some real good matches, just annoying to see them all the time.

Also, you should come to the next Manassas show. It's 1/16/09 right before the inauguration. If ROH isn't dead yet, I hope they name it Yes We Can.

[Cewsh]

as i haven't followed roh in probably 2 years, can you expand?

Gabe fell in love with Japanese wrestlers after the Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi match became his biggest seller ever. As a result he essentially sold Ring of Honor to Pro Wrestling NOAH and became their feeder system, resulting in the Briscoe Brothers, Nigel McGuiness, Bryan Danielson, Austin Aries and others spending more and more time in Japan. As a result of that, and the loss of nearly all of their top talent to TNA when they made the, in hindsight, very poor decision to expand to pay per view, he had to start pushing entirely untested talent for the first time since the opening days of Ring of Honor.

So with a constantly shrinking supply of main eventers and a general decline of talent across the independent scene, he turned to the people he knew that he could count on to be loyal to the promotion (Jimmy Jacobs, Delirious, etc.) and signed alot of talent (Ruckus, Necro Butcher, etc.) that didn't mesh with the style that the fans of the product had grown to appreciate and expect, and as a result the product, and the interest in it slowly began to dissolve to the point where they can't even garner enough interest to get more than a reply every few days on this forum, which was once almost exclusively populated with Ring of Honor fans.

It was a terrible, slow, and painful downfall, and Gabe proved himself completely incapable of pulling them out of the spiral downwards that they were in. Money wasn't the issue, as they are still seemingly in decent shape, it was just as if his creativity didn't lend itself to jump starting the promotion a second time with subpar talent, and he clearly let his bias' and the things that made him feel safe and secure as a booker get the better of him and lead him to make poor choices. In short, he was burnt out and it was time for a change.

He was quite good once, but he didn't have what it took to keep things going. That's basically it.

Edit: And Kenny King is fantastic.

[chotliwala]

Gabe fell in love with Japanese wrestlers after the Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi match became his biggest seller ever. As a result he essentially sold Ring of Honor to Pro Wrestling NOAH and became their feeder system, resulting in the Briscoe Brothers, Nigel McGuiness, Bryan Danielson, Austin Aries and others spending more and more time in Japan. As a result of that, and the loss of nearly all of their top talent to TNA when they made the, in hindsight, very poor decision to expand to pay per view, he had to start pushing entirely untested talent for the first time since the opening days of Ring of Honor.

First off, there are two n's in McGuinness. Secondly, I think a few of the wrestlers have to work in Japan to be able to make decent money. Danielson isn't one of them, but Nigel has said without NOAH he'd be poor. They lost a ton of talent in a short amount of time (Joe, Homicide, Aries, Cabana, Daniels) partially because of PPV's which really fucked shit up.


So with a constantly shrinking supply of main eventers and a general decline of talent across the independent scene, he turned to the people he knew that he could count on to be loyal to the promotion (Jimmy Jacobs, Delirious, etc.) and signed alot of talent (Ruckus, Necro Butcher, etc.) that didn't mesh with the style that the fans of the product had grown to appreciate and expect, and as a result the product, and the interest in it slowly began to dissolve to the point where they can't even garner enough interest to get more than a reply every few days on this forum, which was once almost exclusively populated with Ring of Honor fans.

Ruckus was a bad signing, but Necro in ROH has honestly been a breath of fresh air. It's just that the big angle was supposed to be faction warfare with everyone in a faction but it just fell flat. Aries had to leave for two months at the beginning, Sydal left just as he joined a stable, and every stable coincidentally had three people. It helped make the tag scene a bit more interesting, but with the myriad of factions, there was no definition between them which is on Gabe (minus things like Jack breaking his face and people getting in an accident which made them cancel the Trios Tournament). And the big thing from faction warfare was supposed to be the Age of the Fall, but it was all downhill after


It was a terrible, slow, and painful downfall, and Gabe proved himself completely incapable of pulling them out of the spiral downwards that they were in. Money wasn't the issue, as they are still seemingly in decent shape, it was just as if his creativity didn't lend itself to jump starting the promotion a second time with subpar talent, and he clearly let his bias' and the things that made him feel safe and secure as a booker get the better of him and lead him to make poor choices. In short, he was burnt out and it was time for a change.

He was quite good once, but he didn't have what it took to keep things going. That's basically it.

He never really shook it up. The Briscoes always won. They won the titles even though he knew Mark Briscoe needed surgery. And then instead of forfeiting the titles, Jay defends them with Aries and then forfeits them. Made no fucking sense. Fucking illogical. And he brought in Kota Ibushi for a four show tour. He's entertaining, but he's not a big name. I can understand bringing in a Kobashi or a Misawa but KOTA IBUSHI? I mean I've grown to appreciate puro but it didn't make sense and he hyped it as the be all end all.

And this stupid Danielson/Nigel feud they've got going. Nigel says Dragon can't get a title shot until he beats everyone Nigel beat, but then Gabe has to go on the forums and say that it's a PPV exclusive storyline. If the ROH board doesn't understand it, you know it's stupid. But then Dragon gets a title shot anyways. But Dragon catches up for PPV anyways by beating Claudio and Go in a three way which raises the question, why didn't Dragon just have a three way against Go and Tyler after Nigel laid down the gauntlet? And why would Nigel acquiesce to Dragon without Dragon even coming out and saying he's beaten everyone. Fucking stupid.


Edit: And Kenny King is fantastic.

But not last-for-15-minutes-in-an-even-match-with-Dragon fantastic. But he is black so that helps.

Oh that reminds me. FIP. What the hell. I don't give a shit about it but ROH stuff would go down there. I hated that.

[Cewsh]

Heh, I kept being ready to argue against your points before I realized halfway down that you pretty much agreed with everything I said. ;)

But yeah, basically Ring of Honor has had a ton of flaws and has been leaking talent for a long time.

Okay, let's play fantasy dream time. Who would be the ideal booker for Ring of Honor?

And before you say Paul Heyman, every single ECW mark here, note that the last time he ran a promotion of this size something happened to it. Hmm, what was it...

[chotliwala]

I'm tricky like that Cewsh.

I think Cornette or Dusty would be good if you have some younger talent under them who get to learn and then take over after a year or two. If they go with a committee approach, I'd consider adding some random fan. I've seen people write up amazing booking ideas (shit at528 is fantastic at it) and while it would be incredibly unorthodox, it couldn't hurt.

And I don't think Heyman would be any good either. For a short time it would be decent, but it would reek of desperation.

[Cewsh]

Plus Heyman would have to be an idiot to risk his legacy on a promotion as down as this one is right now.

[Fanny Batter]

Adam Pearce is the new booker ACCORDING TO MELTZER.

Man, the ROH Message board is full of fucking idiots. Because Pearce works a slow, more methodical wrestling match (and isn't very good at it), that obviously means he'll book the whole show like that :lol:.

What they need to do is get back to running 1 or 2 shows a month. Build to matches properly rather than rushing through them because you need some way to sell a Friday night show in CT. Moderate the high spots so they mean something. Sex up the production and get away from the reds and blacks, it's not a bloody roulette table. Have a bit of variation - bring in the Joey Mercury's the Sid's, the Dave Taylor's, the R&R Express, guys who aren't always young, athletic, tatooed and tanned. Less "shoot" angles. Shorter matches. Put some structure into the show - it's not accessible to watch wrestling in 3 hour sittings all the time, have some more promos and hype stuff. For example, Danielson vs. McGuinness is coming up - why not dedicate chunks of the shows before that to showing audience surveys on who will win, get thoughts from the roster, training videos, highlight montages, breakdown why Nige will win and why Dragon will win, sitdown interviews on why they NEED to win etc. Don't just wank on about their good matches because match quality is irrelevant to the story. Less blood. I could go on.

[Mills]

I don't have a problem with that, but they need to focus on the younger guys with maybe a random appearance by a big name. They are being smart and trying to revive the Chicago Area , which always seemed to be their hotbed, by bringing back Samoa Joe for 1 night only. Good moves so far.

[Cewsh]

Adam Pearce is the new booker ACCORDING TO MELTZER.

Man, the ROH Message board is full of fucking idiots. Because Pearce works a slow, more methodical wrestling match (and isn't very good at it), that obviously means he'll book the whole show like that :lol:.

What they need to do is get back to running 1 or 2 shows a month. Build to matches properly rather than rushing through them because you need some way to sell a Friday night show in CT. Moderate the high spots so they mean something. Sex up the production and get away from the reds and blacks, it's not a bloody roulette table. Have a bit of variation - bring in the Joey Mercury's the Sid's, the Dave Taylor's, the R&R Express, guys who aren't always young, athletic, tatooed and tanned. Less "shoot" angles. Shorter matches. Put some structure into the show - it's not accessible to watch wrestling in 3 hour sittings all the time, have some more promos and hype stuff. For example, Danielson vs. McGuinness is coming up - why not dedicate chunks of the shows before that to showing audience surveys on who will win, get thoughts from the roster, training videos, highlight montages, breakdown why Nige will win and why Dragon will win, sitdown interviews on why they NEED to win etc. Don't just wank on about their good matches because match quality is irrelevant to the story. Less blood. I could go on.

I agree with every single word of this.

[Mills]

Amen.

[Vice]

ROH needs to sort out the music situation. Unlike WWE, they can use whatever music they want as entrance themes due to being under the radar, but the music is even more generic!

A few guys have really good music that stands out, but so much is just "*heavy guitar* rarrarrararhrahrhasajakdla!!!". Or they have have too many intros and shit tacked on. Hero, for example. "somethingsomething knock out kid, CHRIS... HEEERO", followed by the beginning part of "I Need a Hero" or whatever song that is, followed by the LOTR song. The LOTR song would more than do the trick by itself. Or when someone gets a new theme, they take the beginning part of their previous song and then do a horrible cut to the new theme. I remember some songs had like 2-4 cuts and it screams low budget indy-fest.

With hundreds of thousands of songs at their disposal, they should make better use of it. Some of my favorite themes are WWE instrumentals and they define the wrestler so much, unlike RAHHHHHHDEATHMETALHEADBANG songs that are so overused in ROH.

[Cewsh]

I agree with this also.

[chotliwala]

OMG CEWSH IS VICE'S SOCK :panic:

You guys should come home for the next show here and tell Cary what to do. He hangs out in line before hand and talks to people.

[UncannyIowan]

The announcement on several news sites concerning Pearce follows with 'The plan is to feature more of a "1970s style" of wrestling.'

[Motherboy]

The announcement on several news sites concerning Pearce follows with 'The plan is to feature more of a "1970s style" of wrestling.'

http://www.accelerator3359.com/Wrestling/pictures/awesome2.jpg?

[blackening]

Samoa Joe is returning for one night in Chicago on 11/22.

[chotliwala]

You gonna go blackening?

[blackening]

No, but I wish I was.

They seem to be putting a lot of stock into this show trying to get the attendance up.

[JAYD]

gabe will probably be back as booker in 6 months or something.

[UncannyIowan]

RoH's needs to upgrade their production and scenary. The shitty sound system, the dingy atmosphere. All the RoH dvd's I have, they all look like they wrestled in the same place with the same shit PA system. Half the time I don't even understand what is being said in an in-ring promo. You couldn't put that product on national t.v., and you can't expect it to catch on with ppv when they don't even look like they could afford being on ppv to begin with.

RoH needs some serious financial backing to get them a nice set, better sound quality (entrances included). Even if it was just for the ppv's....

[chotliwala]

Fuck I'm really pissed. They shut down the ROH boards (temporarily they claim) because all the traffic was making the rest of the site lag. While the makes complete sense, I wanted to see everyone going crazy. I wish they had a backup or something.

[Cactus Lem]

Butch is the better booker anyway.

Judging on what exactly?

I'm not going to add any criticisms, because everyone Batter especially (about from the above point) have basically covered all my grievances with ROH right now.

I really think people have been a little harsh on Gabe in the same way people try to dis-credit Heyman by saying he copied Bill Watts and got lucky.

Gabe did an absolutley great job as booker up until mid 2007. Yes he had the odd bit of luck here and there and had a few storylines fall into his lap, but that's part of the gift and the ride. It's not as if the WWE just hasn't had something fall into their laps before and ran with it now is it? If anything it's a testament to the adaptability and business smarts the guy possess.

I think a lot of people are forgetting what truly great moments he booked over the years. Yes things got stale, but come on, this guy brought CM Punk to the attention of most of us and booked some absolutley amazing storylines and match up's that arguablly got the guy where he is today. He also booked Samoa Joe like an absolutle beast and got the most out of a guy that I doubt many would even look at properly. He gave Joe a platform and he ate it up, becoming one of the best wrestlers of the past decade. Then you've got the brilliant booking and rise of many youngsters, just look at Matt Sydal right now, look at how awesome Alex Shelley became in TNA and then look back at where exactly he really busted out his potential.

Gabe's also booked some of the greatest wrestling moments of the past decade. Just think back to Joe's title reign and Aries de-throning, or Punk and Joe's epic triliogy and its intricacy and accuracy. Then there's the many moments that the CZW feud provided us, Homicide's road to the title, Nigel McGuinnes becoming a beast, Bryan Danielson having a platform to have awesome match after awesome match etc etc.

Yes Gabe certainly got stale and he certainly ran out of fresh ideas, and yes at times he got a bit marky, and yes he booked matche's in a way to samey manner at times, but at the end of the day really think about this, is there any booker that doesn't have those exact same faults? I honestly don't think there is.

Booking seems like a short term fix in many ways, think about great bookers over the years and think about how long their stints lasted and whenabouts their great stuff started dropping off. Gabe's been no different really and I appreciate what an awesome job he did in ROH for the most part.

Also, if it wasn't for Gabe would I have ever thrown a bottle at Bryan Danielson? :)

[Cewsh]

Gabe is being maligned pretty badly, but he's been in terminal decline for at least 4 years now.

[Cewsh]

http://forums.rajah.com/showpost.php?p=5705944&postcount=12792

Weird how prophetic I was on that one.

Anybody still want in on that bet?

[Cactus Lem]

Gabe is being maligned pretty badly, but he's been in terminal decline for at least 4 years now.

That's where your opinion is totally wrong. 2005 and 2006 kicked serious ass, and while 2007 wasn't overly awesome, it had some great shows and some very good storylines.

2007 was the year in which everything became way to diluted and predictable if anything, and I'd say since the conclusion of The Briscoes vs Steen/Generico feud ROH hasn't had much going for it.

I don't think you're viewing things in a fair light claiming that the guy has been crappy since 2004, which clearly isn't true.

[Cewsh]

I said he has been in decline since then. Not that he just magically crapped out overnight.

Thanks for deciding whether or not my opinions are right or wrong though. I appreciate that.

[Cactus Lem]

Thanks for deciding whether or not my opinions are right or wrong though. I appreciate that.

Anytime :yes:

[chotliwala]

Also, if it wasn't for Gabe would I have ever thrown a bottle at Bryan Danielson? :)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/chotliwala/EuropeanNavigation2008003.jpg


They were running too many shows. I think 2007 had around 40 or something ridiculous.

[blackening]

http://forums.rajah.com/showpost.php?p=5705944&postcount=12792

Weird how prophetic I was on that one.

Anybody still want in on that bet?
It's all your fault.

[Fanny Batter]

Judging on what exactly?

I was just joking. I had no idea that Luke had experience in booking wrestling before the notes in this thread.

[Cewsh]

I'll take all the credit.

And very respectful of you, Lem. Very classy.

[blackening]

I was trying to think of the stakes for the bet, but it's probably a good thing I didn't come up with anything.

[chotliwala]

From the news thread


- ROH owner Cary Silkin made the decision to let Gabe Sapolsky go as booker. Sapolsky was told at the ROH show in Edison over the weekend and was said to have been shocked. Things did end on good terms between the two sides. One of the reasons Silkin let Sapolsky go is because the company now thinks that to grow, it will need to focus more on the entertainment side of things and less on the wrestling side. Silkin wants a new direction and feels like the promotion isn't hitting on all cylinders right now. Sapolsky also drove people crazy with his fits from time to time.

The focusing on the entertainment side is what caught my eye. If that's the case, having Pearce be the booker doesn't quite make sense.

[Cewsh]

Maybe they mean more like old NWA style, with lots of long, workrate heavy matches, but a focus (for the time) on decent production values, and worker interviews.

[Vice]

http://carolynbaker.net/site/images/train%20wreck.jpg

[Cewsh]

:lol:

One year. Any takers?

[Brian M.]

ROH needs to sort out the music situation. Unlike WWE, they can use whatever music they want as entrance themes due to being under the radar, but the music is even more generic!

A few guys have really good music that stands out, but so much is just "*heavy guitar* rarrarrararhrahrhasajakdla!!!". Or they have have too many intros and shit tacked on. Hero, for example. "somethingsomething knock out kid, CHRIS... HEEERO", followed by the beginning part of "I Need a Hero" or whatever song that is, followed by the LOTR song. The LOTR song would more than do the trick by itself. Or when someone gets a new theme, they take the beginning part of their previous song and then do a horrible cut to the new theme. I remember some songs had like 2-4 cuts and it screams low budget indy-fest.

With hundreds of thousands of songs at their disposal, they should make better use of it. Some of my favorite themes are WWE instrumentals and they define the wrestler so much, unlike RAHHHHHHDEATHMETALHEADBANG songs that are so overused in ROH.

Dude, this used to be my favorite part of ROH. All the "DANGER DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" and "Final Countdown" (which I'm pretty sure is still around) and Claudio's theme that started as the NBC Olympic song and then went into that DUH DUH DUH DA DA DA, DUH DA DUH! Also Hero and Claudio using "We Are The Champions" for a while! Man. I miss that shit. I think I'm going to watch some 2006 ROH soon.

Is the music really that bad now?


The announcement on several news sites concerning Pearce follows with 'The plan is to feature more of a "1970s style" of wrestling.'

This sounds awesome to me.

[Defrost]

:lol:

One year. Any takers?

Can I go less than a year?

[chotliwala]

Dude, this used to be my favorite part of ROH. All the "DANGER DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" and "Final Countdown" (which I'm pretty sure is still around) and Claudio's theme that started as the NBC Olympic song and then went into that DUH DUH DUH DA DA DA, DUH DA DUH! Also Hero and Claudio using "We Are The Champions" for a while! Man. I miss that shit. I think I'm going to watch some 2006 ROH soon.

Is the music really that bad now?

Claudio's has changed up a bit but basically the same, Hero's is actually pretty cool from what I remember (though he has gone through about 3 or 4 in a relatively short time period), Dragon hasn't changed (nor have Aries, Strong, Nigel, Briscoes and probably some other people you remember).

[Brian M.]

That's good. I heard the Briscoes music the other night and it made me miss watching ROH. But I still have no desire to buy DVDs or search out shows or anything. :(

[Cactus Lem]

Dude, this used to be my favorite part of ROH. All the "DANGER DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" and "Final Countdown" (which I'm pretty sure is still around) and Claudio's theme that started as the NBC Olympic song and then went into that DUH DUH DUH DA DA DA, DUH DA DUH! Also Hero and Claudio using "We Are The Champions" for a while! Man. I miss that shit. I think I'm going to watch some 2006 ROH soon.

Is the music really that bad now?


Those are exceptions, but I think Vice is reffering to the shite used by the likes of BJ Whitmer and Brent Albright, and the many others on the roster.

[Cewsh]

When we reviewed the show, it was just very clear to us that very little thought was going into who got what music.

Little cocky guys had like huge Iron Maiden stuff, and guys like Albright had random generic metal. But alot of guys hadn't changed their entrance at all in years and years. That's another way you become stale, you present something that everyone has already seen over and over.

[Cactus Lem]

When we reviewed the show, it was just very clear to us that very little thought was going into who got what music.

Little cocky guys had like huge Iron Maiden stuff, and guys like Albright had random generic metal. But alot of guys hadn't changed their entrance at all in years and years. That's another way you become stale, you present something that everyone has already seen over and over.

I think it was a case of the wrestlers picking their themes without the booker really caring all that much if anything, which is pretty dumb.

Nigel McGuinnes is a guy who's needed better entrance music for a long time. He needs a real theme that people can get behind, rather than an Oasis B-Side or whatever it is he comes out too.

[chotliwala]

Kensuke Sasaki and Katsuhiko Nakajima are gonna be at Philly and NYC for Final Battle weekend.

[blackening]

October 29th: Bryan Danielson has been in contact, and has had spirited dialogue, with the ROH Booking Committee. We have it on good authority that an announcement of some sort will be made early next week in reference to these talks.


Danielson on booking committee?

[Defrost]

October 29th: Bryan Danielson has been in contact, and has had spirited dialogue, with the ROH Booking Committee. We have it on good authority that an announcement of some sort will be made early next week in reference to these talks.


Danielson on booking committee?


Pearce is kayfabing this shit. It'll be asking for a title match or something.

[blackening]

Danielson has a title match against Nigel on 11/22.

[Defrost]

Danielson has a title match against Nigel on 11/22.

A stip in that match then.

[chotliwala]

And now Marufuji is coming to to Final Battle weekend in addition to Sasaki and Nakajima. Nigel/Maru II in New York I'm guessing.

[Brian M.]

I was hoping that Gabe being gone would mean the end of the pointless booking of wrestlers from Japan.

I'm not talking about Marufuji, obviously, as ROH fans love him by now. But I don't want to watch shows with random guys that I have no emotional attachment to in main event slots. Not every ROH fan follows the Japanese wrestling scene.

[jakeb]

11/1 ROHbot Report (Exclusive Kevin Steen Interview): http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/publish/ringofhonorlive/11108.shtml

[chotliwala]

I was hoping that Gabe being gone would mean the end of the pointless booking of wrestlers from Japan.

I'm not talking about Marufuji, obviously, as ROH fans love him by now. But I don't want to watch shows with random guys that I have no emotional attachment to in main event slots. Not every ROH fan follows the Japanese wrestling scene.

Like Kota Ibushi?

I'm guessing these were already booked before Gabe left.

[jakeb]

Can someone do me a favor and post the link to the Kevin Steen interview I did on the roh message board for me. I can't log in since the board went down after Gabe's release. I've tried to get a hold of someone, but it's been taking a while. Big thanks to whoever helps.

[blackening]

Morishima is coming back for Final Battle 2008 weekend.

[chotliwala]

Morishima is coming back for Final Battle 2008 weekend.

:panic: I can finally complete by European Navigation VIP set and my Glory By Honor VI Night 1 DVD.

[blackening]

Finally an end to Dragon/Morishima, I hope.

Along with Marufuji/Nigel, that weekend should be great.

[jakeb]

Can someone do me a favor and post the link to the Kevin Steen interview I did on the roh message board for me. I can't log in since the board went down after Gabe's release. I've tried to get a hold of someone, but it's been taking a while. Big thanks to whoever helps.

Can someone help a brotha out, please?

[Mills]

I don't post there...

[blackening]

Can someone help a brotha out, please?
This one?

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2008/07/23/6246481.html

[chotliwala]

Montreal Results

Preshow

1) Stupefied defeats Exess, Dan Paysan, & Green Phantom in a 4 way.

Main Show

~Return date is April 17th, 2009.

~General Rule Change: Every match now has a 20 count on the floor.

1) Erick Stevens defeats Eddie Edwards with a Doctorbomb.

2) Jay & Mark Briscoe defeat Kenny Omega & Kenny King with a Doomsday Device on Omega. King bailed on Omega during the match, and was met at the top of the ramp by Rhett Titus. The two high fived and left together.

3) Necro Butcher defeats Brodie Lee via disqualification when the Age of the Fall ran in and beat down Necro.

~After the match Nigel came down and trash talked Necro. He claimed to be "The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be". Crowd near riot status.

4) Jerry Lynn defeats Delirious with a Cradle Piledriver.

~INTERMISSION~

5) Davey Richards defeats Roderick Strong after Eddie Edwards hit Strong from behind and Richards used Strong's own Gibson Driver to get the three.

~After the match Go Shiozaki joined in with SNS Inc. in beating up Strong, until Erick Stevens made the save and ran them off. Strong and Stevens had a stare down, then they both left separately.

6) Bryan Danielson & Austin Aries defeat Jimmy Jacobs & Tyler Black when Jacobs tapped to Aries' Last Chancery.

~After the match Jacobs got in Black's face over the loss and blamed him for it. They didn't leave together.

7) ROH World Championship: Nigel McGuinness defeats Go Shiozaki, Kevin Steen, & El Generico to retain the ROH World Championship. El Generico was eliminated first following a Nigel low blow and a Go Flasher by Shiozaki. Go Shiozaki was forced to submit by Kevin Steen in a Sharpshooter. Finally after multiple near falls, Nigel hit Steen with a brutal Jawbreaker Lariat to put him down and get the three.

Markham Results

Preshow

1) Stupefied & Player Uno defeat Ernie Osiris & Ninja Yellow

Main Show

1) Davey Richards defeats Jerry Lynn

2) Kenny King & Rhett Titus defeat Delirious & Brodie Lee via countout.

3) Roderick Strong & Erick Stevens defeat Eddie Edwards & Go Shiozaki of SNS Inc. when Strong submits Edwards to the Stronghold.

~After the match Strong and Stevens shake hands.

4) Austin Aries defeats Jimmy Jacobs in a Dog Collar match with the Last Chancery using the chain. Total bloodbath from start to finish. At one point Tyler was out, but Jacobs sent him to the back telling him he had it under control. Jacobs got a standing O after the match.

~INTERMISSION~

5) Grizzly Redwood defeats Alex "Sugarfoot" Payne with a double axe handle to the chest.

6) Bryan Danielson defeats Tyler Black & Kenny Omega when he submitted Omega to Cattle Mutilation.

7) ROH World Championship: Necro Butcher defeats Nigel McGuinness via disqualification when Age of the Fall runs in and attacks Necro. Nigel retains.

8) ROH World Tag Team Championships: Kevin Steen & El Generico defeat Jay & Mark Briscoe to retain.

Nothing too surprising in there. The DQ's and count outs are a little meh, but interesting. Seeds planted for a Jimmy/Tyler feud which is a bit disappointing for me.

[blackening]

I agree with you about the DQs.

On the bright side, maybe they'll get London back.

[Brian M.]

I'm happy they're running DQ and countout finishes as long as they don't go too overboard with them. Don't make them copouts and it will be fine.

It annoyed me when a regular match would involve a brawl all over the place with tons of weapons, and then they'd try to sell me that the next match was "NO HOLDS BARRED OMG." Uhh, I'm pretty sure the last match I watched was no holds barred too because the ref didn't so much as flinch at the 55 chair shots.

So this makes gimmick matches more meaningful, at least.

EDIT: Them getting London back would be a great pickup, though I'd prefer to see them go after someone like Cade or Murdoch first. They have guys like London already.

[Vice]

It annoyed me when a regular match would involve a brawl all over the place with tons of weapons, and then they'd try to sell me that the next match was "NO HOLDS BARRED OMG." Uhh, I'm pretty sure the last match I watched was no holds barred too because the ref didn't so much as flinch at the 55 chair shots.


Ahahah yes. Those were the best. I can't remember which show it was, but there was a normal match that involved chairs, ladders, and every other weapon imaginable, and the fall was counted on the outside. Then the next match was their "highly anticipated" "falls count anywhere" match that involved one chair and a pinfall inside the ring. It might not have been ROH, but I'm fairly damn sure it was.

One of my favorite things was the billing of taped fist matches. "THEIR FISTS ARE LIKE METAL WITH THE TAPE AROUND THEM!".. and yet, every time two guys would throw it down (ala Joe and Low Ki), to show that they were serious business they would take the tape off their hands and Gabe would go bananas because of how hard they were going to hit each other without having tape on their fists. It was eyebrow raising for sure.

[Cewsh]

Kenny King and Rhett Titus tag team?

My dream has come true.

[blackening]

Tyler Black vs. Samoa Joe on 11/22.

Hopefully Black will have a great match like he's had with Danielson and Nigel.

[Cactus Lem]

I'm actually quite excited for that one.

Ha me thinking though, when was the last time Joe had a truly awesome match? I honestly think the last one I can actually think of was his last ROH match with Nigel.....

[Mills]

I liked any of his TNA matches with Christian or AJ personally.

[Cactus Lem]

I liked any of his TNA matches with Christian or AJ personally.

Ah yeh, forgot those Christian matche's, I dug those. Can't remember a match with AJ for a good while though.

[Mills]

See, I'm remembering their X-Division title matches back when that title had relevance.

[Cactus Lem]

See, I'm remembering their X-Division title matches back when that title had relevance.

Well yeah, I loved those matche's, but they didn't take place in the time frame I was reffering to.

[maxx powerz]

To be honest, Joe was the fucking shit in 2004 in ROH, and everything after that was pretty hit or miss, so its not even like its a TNA thing with him, he just got complacent or something. I guess you could say ROH ran out of things for him to do and he got disinterested, but I think if you add up all of Joe's awesome stuff from 05, 06 and 07, his stuff from 04 still beats it.

That said, this upcoming Chicago show is probably the most excited I've been for a ROH show all year. Pumped for Joe vs. Black, Danielson and Nigel never fail to deliver, and Aries and Jacobs have been doing a lot of good stuff, so I'm hoping they'll provide a fitting finale. If ROH can't deliver the goods here, I don't know if I'm going to have much optimism for them going forward.

[FollowTheThreeEyes]

Danielson vs Morishima in a Fight Without Honor at Final Battle! (Does happy dance)

[blackening]

That's awesome.

I know Black/Joe is new, but I wish Nigel wasn't tied up that night. Joe/Nigel right now would be awesome. Nigel has come along way since their last match and Nigel would be such a great dick heel for Joe to play on.

Wish I was going that night.

[DDT]

Oh nos, I'm back!

So just thought I'd say I'd be at the Dayton show next Friday. It actually looks to be a fairly awesome card (posted for those of you who don't know nor can be assed to find out):

ROH World Title Three Way Match
Nigel McGuinness defends vs. Austin Aries vs. Tyler Black

World Tag Team Title Match
Kevin Steen & El Generico defend vs. Jimmy Jacobs & Delirious

Grudge Match #1
Bryan Danielson vs. Claudio Castagnoli

Grudge Match #2
Brent Albright vs. Davey Richards with Larry Sweeney

Lights Out Match
Roderick Strong vs. Chris Hero

Four Corner Survival
Sami Callahan vs. Rhett Titus vs. ??? vs ???

If the question marks are Pelle Primeau and Silas Young, and Tyler Black somehow manages to fuck off between now and next Friday, I think this could be a very awesome card. Hopefully, I'll see Aries sell another Lariat RVD-style.

[Cewsh]

YUS!

Sami Callihan is really very, very good. Covered him in my Ted Petty Invitational review.

Him and Rhett Titus in a match together? Almost enough to make me watch.

[DDT]

Sami Callihan has got so much going for him, and I was among the first to jump on the Rhett Titus bandwagon, so I love the opener.

The only match that I'll consider a piss-break is the Albright match; really, I loved the man in OVW, but to me Albright in ROH = Fail.

[Cewsh]

You should read Vice's and my review of fueling the fire a few threads down, because I think you'd agree with about everything I said.

Good times.

[DDT]

Just about, 'cept for the Briscoes belonging in TNA. Everything about them screams 'Indy'. Besides, I've seen their tag matches against MCMG, and they blew. Like, everyone I talk to loves them, but to me it was just a wankfest of double-team moves and high spots with no rhyme or reason. Of course, if they did more things like their shotgun-AOTF promo, I might change my mind about that. Have you seen it? Hilariously glorious.

But yes, Albright sucks a cock these days, and I still laugh every time I hear his submission maneuver being called 'THE CROWBARRRRRR!!!!!' Really, is it so hard to call it the Fujiwara armbar?

[blackening]

Oh nos, I'm back!

So just thought I'd say I'd be at the Dayton show next Friday. It actually looks to be a fairly awesome card (posted for those of you who don't know nor can be assed to find out):

It really does look like a solid card. Hopefully it gets a good turnout.

More importantly, I hope Chicago does really well attendance wise. It'd be awesome if they sold enough tickets to bring back the large bleachers they had for Driven and Man Up.

[DDT]

Results from Dayton:

Crowd isn't too packed, but they've negelected this market for a while, and won't be back until April of next year, so no shocker.

Dark Match #1: Two dudes who come out to Rick Roll vs. Ninja Blue and Alex 'Sugarfoot' Payne. I'll differentiate between the two dudes by calling the one dressed like Jerry Lawler Jerry Jr. and the one with the Pink bandana Fruitcake. Anyway, Fruitcake is kinda there, and Jerry Jr. has to resort to acting like the real thing to get heat. Team Sugarfoot takes it.

Dark Match #2: Ninja Yellow vs. BOBBY DEMPSEY!!! Bobby got a LOUD pop, and Sweeney looked esp. ornary tonight. The brief times Ninja Yellow actually got in some offense, Sweeney was all over him, and esp. all over the fans, lots of fuck yous and shut the hell ups. Dempsey takes it in a squash.

--Real Show--

Davey Richards vs. Brent Albright

Urgh, here's my piss break early. Albright is sporting a really dumb fohawk and bleach blonde hair. Let's not even get started on those ugly-ass blue tights. Poor Davey; bless his enlarged-by-roids heart, he's trying everything he possibly can to make this match watchable, and for the most part succeeds; Brent's no-selling of his arm getting worked over, however, is too blatant to ignore. He takes it with a flash pin after miscommunication from S&S via Bobby. After the match, Albright drives off the abusive memebers and tells Bobby to stand up for himself.

Nigel came out and basically ran down Tyler Black and Austin Aries, saying that because he beat them both, he shouldn't have to defend the title against them both. "I mean, suppose a fluke happens; what if Aries pins Black, or Black pins Aries?" Nigel is being awesome here, shame it was to try and eleviate the fact that they'd rather make the match tonight non-title and have an unpredictable ending then have a title match, a predictable ending, and a more satisfying conclusion to the night.

RHETT TITUS!!!!!!~! vs. Sami Callihan vs. Grizzly Redwood vs. Go Shiozaki

Rhett makes this match by being the world's most awesome douchebag. Sami helps by showing why people think he's awesome, Grizzly brings the face funny, and Go brings the star power. Rhett was being especially douchey to Go, who responded with chops. Grizzly was the one who got worked over and made the hot tag, and Go pins Sami with the Go Flasher after destroying everyone. Standard four corner stuff; unless you like watching Timber jokes or 'Please-confuse-me-for-Kenta-Kobashi', Rhett awesomeness and Sami potential are the only worthwhile things.

Briscoes vs. Irish Airborne

I was actually pretty pumped when I learned that this was added on to the card. It started out with some pretty nifty stuff, the Briscoes being rough and tumbly while Irish Airborne were being spunky and...well, airborne. Pretty lengthy control segment by the Briscoes, they had to rush to the end almost immediately after the hot tag because Mark tweaked his knee during one spot bad enough to blow the next spot. Afterwards he had to be helped to the back.

Lights Out Match: Roderick Strong vs. Chris Hero

This match is proof why Strong makes an awesome babyface, and Hero is awesome in general; it was mostly Hero on offense with some brutally stiff stuff, but when Strong made the (equally stiff) comebacks, the crowd was pumped. Eqaully awesome was the fact that save for maybe one minute on the floor, this lengthy match was kept in the ring, and no weapons of any kind were used until the finish, when Sweeny tossed in the loaded elbow pad. Strong intercepted it and knocked out the 'Young Knockout Kid', but Sweet & Sour came in and started beating on Strong, getting the match thrown out. Albright made the save.

--INTERMISSION--

During intermission, I bought Vendetta II, New Horizons, Glory by Honor VI, Death Before Dishonor VII, and Greatest Rivalries. I also saw Chris Hero telling stories to fans and picking up little children because he's an awesome person. Wish I had something to sign so I would feel comfortable going up to him.

--RESUME SHOW--

Tag Title Match: Delerious/Jimmy Jacobs vs. Steenerico@

I got to slap hands with Generico, so I feel accomplished. Steen was so-so-SO awesome here, telling Generico to punch Delerious in the kidneys(!), starting several chants and getting mad at people when they stopped, telling the ref how to do his job, and being absolutely amazing. Steenerico retains when Rhett Titus(!) makes his way down to ringside and causes Delerious to eat that pumphandle neckdrop. Jimmy gets mad at Delerious for his shit costing them the belts, but later forgives the poor masked man.

Claudio Castagnoli vs. Bryan Danielson

This match was balls to the wall awesome. I've heard reports that Claudio looks awkward as a heel, but I don't sense any of that here. Crowd is one-hundred percent behind Bryan, and this is back-and-forth visual sex. Claudio whips Dragon so hard into the barricade, that one of the front row guys goes straight into my lap, proving to me that you NEVER want front-row tickets at wrestling events. Dragon's leg gets worked over, preventing him from hitting his really goodshit, but he still has the Perfect Inside Cradle, and hooks it with his good leg to get the win. Afterwards Claudio starts beating the piss out of him with a chair until Airborne makes the save.

NON-TITLE MAIN EVENT: Tyler Black vs. Austin Aries vs. Nigel McGuinness

Since it's non-title, the drama went down, but so did the predictability. All three of these guys have a high-profile match the next night, but a screwjob finish that involves Jimmy Jacobs interference and Tyler over Aries seems to me the perfect way to go; it protects Nigel, furthers the fued between Austin and Jacobs, and lets Tyler look strong for his match against Samoa Joe. Alas, it was not to be. If this match only switched places with the last one, it would have been perfectly acceptable. As it was, not even Nigel's douchebaggary could distract me from the fact that all three guys were obviously conserving for tomorrow night. Aries takes it with a top-rope brainbuster on Black, leaving me to scratch my head wondering why Tyler gets the high-profile match against Joe.

Left the arena with my DVDs and a great deal of satisfaction. Very good show.

[jakeb]

http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/publish/ringofhonorlive/The_ROHbot_Report_Worth_Your_Money_Death_Before_Di shonor_VI_Markham_Dayton_Results_Rising_Above_Tapi ng_Preview_St_Louis_Nashville_Cards_Shaping_Up_And _More.shtml

[Cewsh]

That site is godawful.

[blackening]

Ring of Honor announced two days ago that it's Pay-Per-Views will now be able on DirecTV starting in 2009 with Rising Above (being taped tonight).

They will also air "ROH Classics".

For the first time, ROH will debut "ROH Classics" on DIRECTV on Demand in early 2009. Approximately ten-hours of classic wrestling programming content from the ROH vaults will appear monthly on the platform. The best matches, rivalries and stars in ROH history will be featured.


I think this is pretty big. Plus, now I get to order the PPVs. :yes:

You still up for that bet Edgecutioner? We could do the cliche picking of the avatar thing.

[blackening]

Tonight's results:

Briscoes come out to start and cut a promo on Steenerico. Briscoes Vs. Steen & Generico - ROH World Tag Team Titles on NOW!!!!!!!!

ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH
1.) Steen and Generico DEF. Briscoe Brothers
Steen and Generico retain after Steen nails the Package Piledriver.Very solid match. Great Double teams by the Briscoes and crowd was super into Generico. They brawled following the match and the Briscoes spilled some Blood. Grizzly out to break up the brawl.
Time of match: 6:05

SHIMMER CHAMPIONSHIP
2.) MsChif retains DEF. Sara Del Ray w/Larry Sweeney in 9:30 to remain Shimmer Champion!
Sickest Boston Crab ever by Sara and MsChif wins with a DDT Variation. Crowd was split between the two in what was said to be a stiff and excellent match!

3.) Delirious DEF. Rhett Titus in 6:33 with a Shadows over Hell. After some brawling and thrusting we got some cock grabs by Delirious. Yes, cock grab. After the match Delirious breaks the Top of the Class Trophy on Titus followed by a Panic Attack with the Trophy.

The return in Jan. will be another PPV Taping!!!!!

FOUR CORNER SURVIVAL
4.) Claudio Castagnoli DEF. Sami Callahan, Silas Young and Alex Payne in 8:54 after a Ricolla Bomb on Sugarfoot. Sugarfoot was big time over. Sami was big time over also getting alot of chants. Claudio tried to use the chair on Sugarfoot but Danielson ran out and took it away from him for the save and a huge "NEXT WORLD CHAMP" Chant. Danielson celebrates with Sugarfoot.

INTERMISSION
Estimate from Cary is now around 1,500!!!!

SIX MAN WAR
5.) Brent Albright, Roderick Strong & ACE STEEL!!! Vs. Chris Hero, Go Shiozaki & Davey Richards w/ Larry Sweeney

SnS wins in 16:06 after Sweeney distracts Sinclair while Hero hits Strong with a chair and puts Davey on top of him to get the win. Ace gets some deserved Welcome Back chants! Ace looks good out there and hasn't lost a step. Davey is explosive with everything he does. Loud Hero Sucks and F*ck You Hero chants! Dempsey is also getting loud chants. SnS in control til Strong got in there and tore it up! Dunkin Donuts chants to Sinclair.

I QUIT MATCH
6.) Aries Vs. Jacobs
Aries says he has no second....for now. Austin Aries wins in 22:13 after LACEY returns and is about throw in the towel for Aries after Jacobs won't stop biting at Aries' bloody head. Lacey slaps Jimmy. Crowd is chanting DIE JIMMY DIE!These two are giving it everything in this awesome brawl. Microphone shots to Jimmys head.Singlehanded bulldog from the top rope to the outside and through a table by both men!! Tyler then tries to throw in the towel and Lacey stops him. Jimmy then quits after Aries has him in a crossface and is stabbing him with the Spike! Sick spot with a spear by Jimmy to Aries through the middle rope and off the apron and onto a steel chair ont he outside!!! Lots of brawling in the crowd and on the outside and lots of blood here. Tyler helping out Jimmy and gets booed big time from the crowd for it. Sick brawl of a match. After the match Jimmy is pissed at Tyler and he leaves Jimmy in the ring with Aries.

ROH WORLD TITLE
7.) Nigel McGuinness Vs. Bryan Danielson
Handshake and the bell.....some great chain wrestling to start. just what you expect from these two. Dueling chants. Danielson works Nigels arm. They steal eachothers moves for heat and pops. Nigel does a figure four to get a Wooooo from the crowd. More updates as I get them. Back and forth match. Soccer kicks to the back of Nigel after some strikes. Sinclair gets involved and Danielson gets clipped. Danielson on the ropes, falls, Sinclair pushes him back up and he eats a lariat! Nigel to the outside and Danielson then does his Springboard Front flip in the aisle. Claudio then comes out and nails Dragon with a chair. Sinclair starts to count and out comes Sugarfoot who drags Dragon back into the ring for a huge pop!Defeaning atmosphere and tons of pinfalls. CATTLE MUTILATION! Epic match as they are both kicking out of everything! Danielson ducks a lariat only to then be hit by a Rebound Lariat for the win!

WINNER AND STILL ROH WORLD CHAMPION: NIGEL MCGUINNESS IN 28:08!


8.) Samoa Joe DEF. Tyler Black in 18:56.
Massive pop for Joe as expected. Joe is in perfect form here as they trade blows and get this one off hot! Tyler goes for his middle rope body press and Joe just walks out of the way. Joe does tope to the outside and then says to the Referee "what are you doing counting!? This is ROH!" Joe hits his Ole kick to break the count. From my report I have this being said it just may be the second version of Joe Vs. Kobashi. ISLAND DRIVER for a 1 count kickout which drove the crowd wild! Tyler goes for his Phoenix Splash and misses and Joe then goes for his top rope Musclebuster but misses. STJOE followed by the Musclebuster and the Choke and you can put this one in the books!

Joe ends the show with a heart felt promo and puts over ROH and the boys in the back. F*ck TNA chants throughout the promo as well.


1,500 for the attendance!

[Defrost]

From my report I have this being said it just may be the second version of Joe Vs. Kobashi.

I love hyperbole. Especially since Joe vs. Kobashi is not as good as JOE VS. KOBASHI

See what I did there?

[Hero!]

Tonight's results:

STILL ROH WORLD CHAMPION: NIGEL MCGUINNESS



:zzz:

[Vice]

I'm very curious to see what happens with ROH's attendance/sales/whatever when The Wrestler hits theaters, since they're getting a lot of advertisement with that. Especially if the movie gets great reviews.

That is, of course, if people realize that Ring of Honor is an actual promotion and not something made up specifically for the movie.

[Cewsh]

Ring of Honor announced two days ago that it's Pay-Per-Views will now be able on DirecTV starting in 2009 with Rising Above (being taped tonight).

They will also air "ROH Classics".

For the first time, ROH will debut "ROH Classics" on DIRECTV on Demand in early 2009. Approximately ten-hours of classic wrestling programming content from the ROH vaults will appear monthly on the platform. The best matches, rivalries and stars in ROH history will be featured.


I think this is pretty big. Plus, now I get to order the PPVs. :yes:

You still up for that bet Edgecutioner? We could do the cliche picking of the avatar thing.


I absolutely am, and I don't think that that, or the Wrestler will have any impact whatsoever on the flagging interest in the promotion.

Avatars sounds fine, what is the exact bet?

[Edicus2288i]

So I just got home from the Chicago show.
First ever ROH show or anything.
Not really familiar with any of them really.
However it was a pretty awesome show live.

Sugerfoot was massively over. I dunno why. Is he some big time ROH wrestler?

The I Quit Match, The Title Match, and the Samoa Joe match were the best 3 by far.
I personally loved the I Quit match.

Funny thing though with the Joe match.

Joe was basically just fucking around with Tyler.
And some guy in the bleachers with me yells "Diesel beat you!"
Joe walks over to the corner closest to us. Starts doing a har har har funny pose. Grabs his nuts, does the jacking off motion, and tells the guy to basically fuck off.
Crowd beginning chant "You Got Served" to the guy in the crowd.

Pretty awesome

[blackening]

Avatars sounds fine, what is the exact bet?If Ring of Honor is still running in 1 year (November 23, 2009), I get to pick the avatar you will use for one month.

If they are out of business before that day, you get to pick the avatar I'll use for one month.

Sound good?

[blackening]

So I just got home from the Chicago show.
First ever ROH show or anything.
Not really familiar with any of them really.
However it was a pretty awesome show live.

Sugerfoot was massively over. I dunno why. Is he some big time ROH wrestler?

The I Quit Match, The Title Match, and the Samoa Joe match were the best 3 by far.
I personally loved the I Quit match.

Pretty awesome
Sugarfoot was a ROH student and he wrestles on the pre-shows or under card. People just always get behind him.

Glad you had a good time.

[Manure]

Just got back (had to ride my bike, MASSIVE fail for public transportation afterwards). Place was balls out wild, it was a great atmosphere. I got inside at about 6:30 and the GA bleachers were already full.

I can't think of how great the PPV's going to look. The tag title match seemed unnecessary and forced. Mark being hurt didn't help. Rhett/Delirious was okay. Del Rey/MsChif was better, Chif was bent in fucking half, it was tremendous. Claudio vs. the fans made the four way. The six-man was getting meh, Davey was pretty crazy, Albright hit some nice suplexes, and Ace (!) was in good form. The I Quit match was epic. Match of the Night easily. I could type about it, but you really have to see it. It was funny to hear the crowd go from mixed chanting for both wrestlers, then all you hear is "Die Jimmy, Die". And then they go back to mixed chanting. I think the finish to the Nigel/Dragon caught everyone by surprise. Half the place was sitting for the pinfall. It had its moments, but the two have them have had better matches. Crowd was beyond bonkers for Dragon. Joe/Black was better than I had anticipated. I didn't expect to see Joe flying out of the ring, considering his deal with TNA. Black got a ridiculous amount of air on this springboard clothesline. The finish still put him over, I guess, but he didn't look very strong. Then again, look who he faced.

Joe put the locker room over with his little shpeel at the end. He kissed the logo in the center of the ring before he left. I'm still giddy from the show. This felt like a make or break event going in, and it really feels like they pulled it off.

[Cewsh]

If Ring of Honor is still running in 1 year (November 23, 2009), I get to pick the avatar you will use for one month.

If they are out of business before that day, you get to pick the avatar I'll use for one month.

Sound good?

:yes:

[Cactus Lem]

Sounds like a great show, I'll have to watch this one for sure.

This was a PPV right? What matche's are going to be on the PPV? Obviously the Joe match won't be, but will everything else?

Also, when does this PPV air?

[blackening]

It was a PPV taping, but I don't think what matches were taped for the PPV was specified. But like you said, the Joe match won't be on PPV.

Also, I think they've only said 'Early 2009' for the air date.

They also had a professional camera crew last night, including a camera crane.

[blackening]

I'm very curious to see what happens with ROH's attendance/sales/whatever when The Wrestler hits theaters, since they're getting a lot of advertisement with that. Especially if the movie gets great reviews.

That is, of course, if people realize that Ring of Honor is an actual promotion and not something made up specifically for the movie.

I absolutely am, and I don't think that that, or the Wrestler will have any impact whatsoever on the flagging interest in the promotion.
I have little hope for The Wrestler bringing in new fans. It all depends if they take the time to look up ROH after they see the movie. Plus, we don’t know even know what kind of deal ROH and the producers made, in terms of finances.

I don’t think that airing the PPVs on DirecTV will get that many new fans either. There will be ROH fans that have DirecTV (like me) that will order the PPVs and maybe some casual fans looking through the previews. It does show me though that the PPVs must be doing pretty good to stick with them and expand and the fact that they have the money to make this deal.

I think hiring a professional camera crew is a good sign. I don’t think anyone is going to buy the DVD for that, but again it shows they have the money and is another positive step.

Also, Chicago had one of the highest attendances in ROH history and they will be returning for another PPV in just 2 months.

They seem to be doing pretty good financially and I think all of the above points together will gain some interest in the product, along with the Chicago show being great. Maybe it won't get back to the level it was in 2006, but it will get better.

[chotliwala]

YAY NIGEL. My vacation will not be ruined.

[blackening]

I was looking at some pictures from the Chicago show and Jacobs has grown quite the beard.

http://moneyshot123.110mb.com/images/rohra2008/images/img_3747.jpg

[jakeb]

11/29 ROHbot Report: http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/publish/ringofhonorlive/ROHbot112908.shtml

[MTR]

Man. I just found out that ROH is going to be in St. Louis(well Collinsville) this Friday. :( Bad timing. No money for tickets. Sucks since even though I have never actually seen a ROH show I know some of the guys would love to see them in action.

[jakeb]

12/6 ROHbot Report: http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/publish/ringofhonorlive/12608.shtml

[blackening]

Final Battle 2008 is looking awesome right now. Announced so far:

Danielson vs. Morishima - Fight Without Honor
Marufuji vs. Nigel - ROH title
Briscoes vs. Sasaki/Nakajima
Lynn vs. Hero vs. ? vs. ?

Plus, Aries, Claudio, Black, Necro, Jacobs, Steen, Generico, etc that have yet to be booked.

Plus, we get Marufuji/Aries and to a lesser extent Lynn/Danielson the night before.


I just watched Low Ki vs. American Dragon from the 2nd show. I fucking love that match. Probably the match closest to a "shoot" that I've ever seen.

[Cewsh]

Am I missing something?

They have a HUGE Japanese star, and he isn't coming within a mile of their World Champion?

Is he not willing to job to McGuiness or something?

[DDT]

I was under the impression that Marufuji WAS a pretty big star in Japan.

[Cewsh]

He absolutely is, but Sasaki is a legend. Closer to Kobashi than Marufuji.

So why aren't they using him to make important people look like big names?

They put him with Castagnoli for fuck's sake.

[Cactus Lem]

He absolutely is, but Sasaki is a legend. Closer to Kobashi than Marufuji.

So why aren't they using him to make important people look like big names?

They put him with Castagnoli for fuck's sake.

Because they're trying to make Claudio look big and elevate him by putting him against Sasaki.

No offence mate, I have plenty to crticise ROH for, but you seem to look for shit to complain about, this being a prime example.

[Ringo]

Yeah, I really don't see a problem with that at all. Looking forward to watching all of this.

[Cewsh]

Because they're trying to make Claudio look big and elevate him by putting him against Sasaki.

No offence mate, I have plenty to crticise ROH for, but you seem to look for shit to complain about, this being a prime example.

If they're elevating Castagnoli then what has he been doing lately to begin this push, and where is he after that match?

Elevating talent is great and all, but I do think that they put all the wrong guys in these situations.

I don't seek out things to hold against Ring of Honor. I just wish that I needed to.

[Horatio]

i thought Sasaki was working a tag vs the Briscoes? when did they announce him going up against CC?

[DDT]

They've also been quasi-building a Marufuji title defense for Nigel since Death Before Dishonor this year, so there's that.

[knicksnyc]

Does anyone know if ROH is planning to have shows in the Houston area during 'Mania weekend?

[chotliwala]

Does anyone know if ROH is planning to have shows in the Houston area during 'Mania weekend?

They haven't said anything as of yet.

And as for Sasaki not challenging Nigel, in addition to what Lem and Ringo have said, he's also the GHC champion so it would be a awkward match to book.

Also I'll be there to see him in Philly the night before. :panic:

[Cewsh]

And as for Sasaki not challenging Nigel, in addition to what Lem and Ringo have said, he's also the GHC champion so it would be a awkward match to book.

So a squash match is better?

[chotliwala]

So a squash match is better?

I haven't seen either of Sasaki's ROH matches yet, but obviously not. Apparently the Claudio one was real flat and the Roddy one was surprisingly decent but I think what ROH tried to do was good. No one in ROH is going to pin the GHC champion even if it's a non title match but a good competitive match where they end up losing can help. Basically what they've done with Tyler Black against Nigel, Dragon and Aries.

[Cewsh]

I think my main problem is that Ring of Honor seems to push all the wrong people lately.

Castagnoli and Strong are never going to be guys to build the promotion around. And honestly, neither is Tyler Black.

[chotliwala]

I'd agree with your assessment of Castagnoli and Strong, but how much of Black have you seen? He needs to improve, but he's a lot more talented in the ring than I thought he was (though his best matches have been with Nigel, Dragon and Aries) and has a spark to him.

I think they need to focus on Black, Davey and Stevens among others.

[Cewsh]

Black could be the next Benoit, but as far as any marketability, i've seen nothing from him.

Frankly, right now Ring of Honor has an assfull of guys who can work, and a withering number of guys that people might want to pay to see.

Davey is definitely a guy who should be getting more attention, as are Rhett Titus (though he's a little green) and Pelle Primeau. They aren't perfect, but they're home grown Ring of Honor guys, and after having everyone but Danielson leave over the years, they could use some guys who want to stick around.

They need to absolutely not, under any circumstances, push any of the following:

Adam Pearce
Brent Albright
Roderick Strong
Delirious
Random Japanese jobbers
El Generico.

[Defrost]

Black could be the next Benoit, but as far as any marketability, i've seen nothing from him.

Frankly, right now Ring of Honor has an assfull of guys who can work, and a withering number of guys that people might want to pay to see.

Davey is definitely a guy who should be getting more attention, as are Rhett Titus (though he's a little green) and Pelle Primeau. They aren't perfect, but they're home grown Ring of Honor guys, and after having everyone but Danielson leave over the years, they could use some guys who want to stick around.

They need to absolutely not, under any circumstances, push any of the following:

Adam Pearce
Brent Albright
Roderick Strong
Delirious
Random Japanese jobbers
El Generico.

Yeah, something tells me the booker is getting a push.

[Cewsh]

I didn't say it wouldn't happen.

I swear to god, Barney the fucking dinosaur would have been a better choice to book this promotion than Adam Pearce.

[jakeb]

12/13 ROHbot Report (Top 20 Shows In ROH History, Nashville Results And Fallout, Trying To Give Students Some Personality, And More)
http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/publish/ringofhonorlive/121308.shtml

[chotliwala]

Black could be the next Benoit, but as far as any marketability, i've seen nothing from him.

Frankly, right now Ring of Honor has an assfull of guys who can work, and a withering number of guys that people might want to pay to see.

Davey is definitely a guy who should be getting more attention, as are Rhett Titus (though he's a little green) and Pelle Primeau. They aren't perfect, but they're home grown Ring of Honor guys, and after having everyone but Danielson leave over the years, they could use some guys who want to stick around.

They need to absolutely not, under any circumstances, push any of the following:

Adam Pearce
Brent Albright
Roderick Strong
Delirious
Random Japanese jobbers
El Generico.

I'd agree with the Benoit comparison. I think Davey is fantastic and it seems like they know that too as I don't think he hasn't had matches with some of the bigger names, but they keep putting him in tag teams.

Of the guys you listed, I think Albright might have some potential as a main eventer if done absolutely right, but all of the others are mid card at best. They just need to have fucking shorter shows. Some of them are like 4 hours long and just tire the fans the fuck out.

And Pelle retired a while back.

[Cewsh]

Shorter shows, actually save big matches for PPV shows, and stop pushing crap talent.

The product basically just needs a complete reboot to become fresh again. But I don't think that Pearce making things "old school" is really going to get the job done.

Oh and somebody fucking take NOAH's number away from Gabe. I know he got fired, but I bet you he still calls there every day just to hear people talk in Japanese.

[DDT]

I'd agree with your assessment of Castagnoli and Strong, but how much of Black have you seen? He needs to improve, but he's a lot more talented in the ring than I thought he was (though his best matches have been with Nigel, Dragon and Aries) and has a spark to him.

I think they need to focus on Black, Davey and Stevens among others.

The only thing Tyler Black has going for him is that his passion and desire are palatable, similar to the way Kenta Kobashi's is/was. However, there the similarity ends, in a very crashing way that makes you embarrassed to find a similarity in the first place. He has no sense of timing, his moves are 'cool' with no sense of rhyme or reason without someone infinitely superior there to guide him throughout the entire match, and unless said guide constantly reminds him, he can't long-term sell for shit (nor was his short-term selling so awesome that we forgave the longterm ala RVD)

You said it yourself, his best singles matches were all against people like Nigel and Dragon so how much credit can we give him when we consider some of the no-talent trash Dragon and Nigel had very good, sometimes even great, matches with (Doug Williams anyone? How about Go Shiozaki?)

That, and every time he tries to talk trash, or even just talk, I break out laughing and sarcastically wonder why they would ever put him behind a superior talker in Jimmy Jacobs (who is there to guide his ass through their tag team matches).

Tyler Black is the living definition of, 'forced greatness'; Gabe and pretty much everyone apparently want us to believe that this man will lead the Indy wrestling scene in the years to come, when he is quite obviously not. If he is the one who dethrones McGuinness, I'll honestly be more than a little pissed.

[Cewsh]

:yes:

[blackening]

Does anyone know if ROH is planning to have shows in the Houston area during 'Mania weekend?
They just announced today that they will be having shows on Wrestlemania weekend in the Houston area.

Rising Above debuts on PPV January 16th.

[Ringo]

Right, so I'm really out of the Ring of Honor loop. Just seems like so many people who followed it have lost interest in the promotion.

So, if you don't mind, a few questions please:

What's going on storyline-wise? What have been the big angles this year and a very basic background to each rivalry? What has defined ROH in 08? What's changed? Who's on top right now? Who's on their way to getting on top? Who has the most interesting characters going at the moment? The days of Punk, Joe etc. are long gone, but back in 2005 everybody was going on about these guys as the cream of the indy crop. Who has replaced them, other than the obvious Nigel's and Danielson's of the world? Will they go further than ROH? If not, why?

I've done a bit of research as to the top PPVs and matches from ROH in 2008, but has there been anything REALLY special? Anything which will be remembered for years to come?

Thanks.

[Mills]

2008 has seemed to be the year of Nigel. Admittedly, I follow ROH via results and Videowires, but they've really built him as the man of ROH. Danielson is still there, but has mainly been the big star on the side, like Joe after he lost his title.

[chotliwala]

Right, so I'm really out of the Ring of Honor loop. Just seems like so many people who followed it have lost interest in the promotion.

So, if you don't mind, a few questions please:

What's going on storyline-wise? What have been the big angles this year and a very basic background to each rivalry? What has defined ROH in 08? What's changed? Who's on top right now? Who's on their way to getting on top? Who has the most interesting characters going at the moment? The days of Punk, Joe etc. are long gone, but back in 2005 everybody was going on about these guys as the cream of the indy crop. Who has replaced them, other than the obvious Nigel's and Danielson's of the world? Will they go further than ROH? If not, why?

I've done a bit of research as to the top PPVs and matches from ROH in 2008, but has there been anything REALLY special? Anything which will be remembered for years to come?

Thanks.

Honestly no there hasn't been anything special. It hasn't been bad, just not as good as it had been previously. And now to try a brief recap of what's going on.

Necro left AOTF and was replaced by Delirious who turned heel because he was sad that Daizee wouldn't go out with him partially due to the interference of Rhett Titus who apparently had sex with Daizee but we actually just found out he is a virgin. In other AOTF news, the rivalry between Jacobs and Aries has seemingly ended after a best of three series (all three were gimmick matches). The last was the I Quit match at Rising Above that saw the return of Lacey. Jimmy was forced to say I Quit as Tyler was unable to throw in the towel for him because Lacey stole it, thus beginning to tease some tension between Jimmy and Tyler. The duo lost the tag belts to Steen and Generico at Driven and since then Jimmy has been teaming with Delirious while Tyler has been in more singles matches and just got his first win over one of the triumvirate (Aries, Dragon, Nigel) the last doubleshot.

Nigel has been a fantastic dick heel. Just fucking amazing in everything he's done this year. Even made a match with Ruckus more entertaining than it had any right to be. He beat Danielson on PPV which ended the stupid PPV only storyline they had going. He's beaten Claudio twice, Dragon once, Aries twice, Steen thrice, Go once, Hero twice, Generico twice, Jacobs once all in singles matches and has just looked very good. Nigel/Marufuji II at Final Battle and if Nigel wins he'll be the first ROH Champion to be champ for a full calendar year and will also pass Dragon to be the second longest reigning champ. Nigel has had a fun mini rivalry with Jerry Lynn who has returned to ROH as the grizzled veteran.

Claudio turned heel and had an apparently violent series of encounters with Dragon. He hasn't really won since the heel turn so I'm not sure, but it was definitely needed. The students have gotten gimmicks ("Addicted to Love" Rhett Titus, "Dirty" Ernie Osiris, Grizzly Redwood, sad Shane Hagadorn) with the slow burn for Bobby Dempsey being incredible. Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards have formed a tag team under the Sweet & Sour banner called American Wolves. Their first match together will be in Philly against Nigel/Claudio (who team together because they hate Dragon and they are European) and a third team. The Briscoes have lost to Steen and Generico twice in a few months after completely owning them for a year which has led to a change in their style and hints at a possible heel turn. A good deal of new talent has been given a chance (Kenny King, Kenny Omega, Osirian Portal, Cheech and Cloudy, Brodie Lee) with the first two appearing on quite a few shows while the others not so much. Irish Airborne is back but have just jobbed a bit.

That pretty much covers it I guess.

[blackening]

So, if you don't mind, a few questions please:
Here's a little rundown of 2008 from a post on the ROH board.

Some quick highlights....

- After a year of chasing the tag titles Kevin Steen and El Generico finally captured the ROH World Tag Team Titles.

- Nigel McGuinness cemented his legacy as a dominant World Champion beating the likes of Kevin Steen, El Generico, Tyler Black, Go Shiozaki, Claudio Castagnoli, Austin Aries and Bryan Danielson along the way.

- Roderick Strong was betrayed by his NRC teammate Davey Richards who joined Sweet and Sour Inc. leaving Roderick to turn face and team with the likes of Brent Albright and Erick Stevens against SnS Inc.

- ROH saw a new influx of talent enter the mix, Guys like Kenny King and Kenny Omega have debuted and have had great showings thus far.

- Tyler Black made an awesome splash having several stellar matches against the likes of Nigel McGuinness, Austin Aries and Bryan Danielson and is also on the verge of leaving Age Of The Fall behind.

- Jerry Lynn has also returned to ROH and has had some solid outings against Kenny King, Nigel McGuinness, Davey Richards and Tyler Black.

- Samoa Joe, LAX and The Motor City Machine Guns all returned (Not permanently) to ROH for a few shows during 2008.

- Japanese legend Kensuke Sasaki appeared on some ROH shows and is booked for Final Battle '08 with his ass-kicking protege Katsuhiko Nakajima.

- Japansese star Kota Ibushi had a 4 show stay in the springtime having great matches against Davey Richards, Claudio Castagnoli, The Briscoes and El Generico.

- ROH moved their NYC shows into the Hammerstein Ballroom.

I believe they've teased London's return.

December 17th: ROH officials received a surprising phone call this morning. It seems someone wants to return to their old stomping grounds.

Final Battle 2008 is stacked.

http://www.rohwrestling.com/News/Article.aspx?id=542 (http://www.rohwrestling.com/News/Article.aspx?id=542)

Plus Steenerico vs. Jacobs/Delirious for the tag titles which will more than likely happen.

[chotliwala]

Final Battle 2008 is stacked.

http://www.rohwrestling.com/News/Article.aspx?id=542 (http://www.rohwrestling.com/News/Article.aspx?id=542)

Plus Steenerico vs. Jacobs/Delirious for the tag titles which will more than likely happen.

Nigel/Maru II and Dragon/Morishima should be fantastic.

Philly doesn't look too bad either. Aries/Maru, Dragon/Lynn, and Go/Shima is gonna be real fun to watch since all three will have a different feel to them. Should be a good weekend.

[Mills]

If Lynn can come back, then by god Paul London can come back.

[Ringo]

Cheers for the info boys :yes:

What are your thoughts on all the guys who have made their ROH debuts in 2008? Who's got it, who hasn't?

[chotliwala]

Omega is solid and has seemingly impressed ROH as well as he's almost become a regular at this point. Kenny King (he was on Tough Enough) is an FIP guy and I haven't seen much from him recently but he has a good aura about him. The Chikara guys have only been on one show so who knows if they will come back.

Of the students, Rhett Titus I think could be the first to escape from the student stigma if he can end up winning his feud against Necro. Grizzly Redwood is entertaining - especially on one of the latest video wires where Dragon teaches him how to split wood - but I don't know how long it could last. "Dirty" Osiris just seems stupid as fuck to me. I can't wait for Bobby to turn on Sweeney. I would honestly go crazy if I was in the crowd. They haven't done that much with Hagadorn so it's too early to say.

And just for a few guys that have changed direction a bit: Claudio should be good as a heel and I am uncertain if I want to see him reunite with Hero. Speaking of, Hero's new gimmick is "That Young Knock Out Kid" where he wins matches with an elbow to the head. No more flippy stuff. He doesn't get cheers anymore, but it's almost become apathy with him. Roddy's back to doing what he does best and should be a good midcard face.

[chotliwala]

Right so I'm leaving in about an hour for Philly so that I can make some signs (NIGEL :panic:) and stalk Marufuji and Morishima so I can finally complete the Japanese portion of one of my most prized possessions.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/chotliwala/NOAH/EuropeanNavigation2008142.jpg

[Cewsh]

So...for Ring of Honor's biggest show of the year (debatably) they feature a main event and a DVD cover that features zero Ring of Honor wrestlers?

I get that that's a big match, but isn't the point of bringing in foreign talent to put over the guys you already have?

That shit still pisses me off.

[Defrost]

So...for Ring of Honor's biggest show of the year (debatably) they feature a main event and a DVD cover that features zero Ring of Honor wrestlers?

I get that that's a big match, but isn't the point of bringing in foreign talent to put over the guys you already have?

That shit still pisses me off.

Misawa didn't want to wrestle any of their guys.

[Ringo]

Misawa's gimmick is that he's an old cunt.

[Brian M.]

Misawa didn't want to wrestle any of their guys.

Then don't bring him in. Seems simple to me. You're going to boost the sales of one DVD maybe (but people who carea bout Misawa would probably watch his Japan tapes anyway), but you're not going to get anyone interested in your product. I'm with edge on this one.

[Defrost]

When your business lives and dies on DVD sales any boost to the DVD sales is a big deal.

[blackening]

Here's a long, but very good interview with Cary that talks about ROH in 2008.

He talks about upgrading, Gabe, the wrestling, how they're doing financially, etc.

http://rohwrestling.com/MessageBoard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45332

[chotliwala]

As far as the Misawa stuff goes, they made a killing off of bringing him in. Philly was absolutely packed with bleachers on both sides jam packed and the floor seating full along with people paying $10 each for autographs of Morishima, Marufuji and KENTA and $20 for Misawa and New York had like 1300 people in the Grand Ballroom and they ran out of seats so some people were sitting in the stairs and shit. It was fucking lame that Misawa didn't wrestle an ROH guy but they he's permanently grumpy.

And last night was a pretty good show.

Preshow

~Ernie Osiris picks someone's pocket and runs. They never saw it coming! Funny stuff.
~ROH returns to Philly on February 28th.

1) Ernie Osiris & Bobby Shields defeat "Sugarfoot" Alex Payne & a Ninja.
2) Grizzly Redwood defeats a Ninja.

Main Show

1) Kenny Omega defeats Rhett Titus to kick off ASE IV with a Kotaro Krusher.

2) Chris Hero defeats Erick Stevens with a kick to the face with a loaded kick pad.

3) Kensuke Sasaki & Katsuhiko Nakajima defeated Roderick Strong & Brent Albright in a very stiff match when Sasaki beat Albright with a Northern Lights Bomb. Aside from one botch on Nakajima's part, this match was absolutely fantastic.

4) Takeshi Morishima defeats Go Shiozaki with a Backdrop Driver. Disappointing, below average match.

5) Jay & Mark Briscoe defeat Davey Richards & Eddie Edwards and Nigel McGuinness & Claudio Castagnoli in a Triangle Elimination Match. Nigel & Claudio were eliminated first when Edwards rolled up Claudio, then a Jay Driller on Eddie eliminated the Wolves. Mark limped out.

*Additional reports claim Mark had ANOTHER tooth kicked out of his head, and in to the front row.

~INTERMISSION~

6) Naomichi Marufuji defeats Austin Aries in a "good outing". Aries was pushing the limits of heel and face before the match. Aries was furious that Marufuji got streamers, then tried to steal the "NEXT WORLD CHAMP" chant for Fuji as his own. After the match he scoffed at the ovation he was given.

~After the match NANA appears! ....then is dragged out by security.

7) Jimmy Jacobs, Tyler Black, & Delirious defeat Kevin Steen, El Generico, & Necro Butcher when Jacobs caught Steen in The End Time. After the match The American Wolves attacked the Champions.

8) Bryan Danielson defeats Jerry Lynn with a small package. The finish saw both men with their shoulders down, but Bryan got his up at the last split second to get the W. After the match both men put one another over to the live crowd. Good finish to the show.

----------------------------

The Osiris shit actually happened right as I got the arena. He was selling some tickets but apparently they were tickets for Nashville and then he ran like the wind away while the dude was chasing him. I'm still not sold on the gimmick.

Omega/Titus was decent. First time I had seen Omega live and the electric chair German suplex looks quite vicious. Obligatory "You're a virgin" chants directed to Titus. Hero/Stevens was better than I thought it would've been. This is the second time I've seen Hero with this Knock Out Kid gimmick and it's really growing on me. Every time he hits an elbow the crowd would react. I really feel like he's just playing Misawa now. The finish saw Del Rey try to interfere and Stevens teased hitting her while Sweeney sent in a kick pad of some sort to Hero. Then the kick and the pin. Hero wasn't getting anywhere near the amount of face heat that he used to which is good.

Sasaki/Nakajima vs. Albright/Strong was a a lot of fun. Not really long or anything just real enjoyable. I put links to some videos I took of this match in the puro thread. After the match was over they all shook hands and bowed and raised arms together and got a standing ovation and a please come back chant. Seriously miles better than I thought it would have been.

Shiozaki/Morishima was an abomination. I had high hopes for it and thought it would be similar to Go/Maru from DBD6 but it wasn't anywhere close. Morishima whipped Go into the ringside barricades in two corners (and Go got a Bob Holly-esque cut on his back - not that bad but shaped like that) and Go rammed Shima into the ring posts a couple of times. One backdrop driver and the match was done. Seriously a fucking lame match.

The three way tag was a lot of fun. The description in the results sums it up pretty well. And once Nigel/Claudio got eliminated it didn't devolve into a typical Briscoes match with finisher after finisher. I think the Jay Driller was the first finisher either team hit. Some close near falls by Eddie and I was disappointed with the American Wolves not winning, but it made sense later.

Aries/Maru didn't seem to click that well, but I still liked it. Aries went for the dive and ate a superkick or a knee (couldn't tell which). He was finally able to connect with the dive and it looked amazing. It was also the first dive of the whole evening. Marufuji did the spot where his opponent bounces off the rope and then he does the same and the other guy turns around and gets clotheslined. The first time he did it, it worked but Aries ducked it the second time. Maru through some serious kicks in this one. Some guy yelled "Yeah" like Lil Jon and Maru just stopped and looked at him which was nice.

Nana was amazing. They wouldn't let him talk though. LAME.

Steen/Generico and Necro came out separately and they were all mad over. Generico and Necro both hit dives to the outside but other than that it was a pretty standard match. Davey and Eddie came in near the end to interfere with Davey hitting Steen with a crowbar leading to the End Time. During the match Delirious teased hitting Necro with the spike but Daizee Haze (who had come out with Necro) tried to reason with him and he was starting to put the spike down but then Necro hit him from behind. After the match Necro put on Jimmy's jacket and did a hilarious Jacobs impression including pretending to cry. Hard to describe but it brought the house down.

The main event was a straight up wrestling match like they said it would be in the video wire. Chain wrestling and that sort of shit. Each of them hit dives and Jerry's looked really vicious. From where I was sitting it looked like his ankles caught the top of the barricades but he looked fine.

My first show with Pearce as the booker and the 20 count on the outside was nice as some of the heels would just linger out there getting some 17 and 18 counts and Aries hitting the dive brought a huge roar and all together there were only five dives to the outside in the whole show which used to be the amount that there would be in a Pelle/Hagadorn match. I enjoyed myself though I'm not sure if it'd be worth to spend $20 on it. The KO tag, Aries/Maru and Dragon/Lynn were all really fun as was the six man tag. The three way tag felt was pretty fast paced as well.

In the end, I'd say download it.

They come back in February so I'm thinking it would be the anniversary show with Tyler vs. Nigel as the main event.

[Ringo]

Can we have your thoughts on the Philly show please chot? TAH.

Also forgot to thank you for the second batch of matches you sent. I watched AOTF/STEENERICO last night. Just awesome stuff as expected. Cheers.

I read Larry Csonka's "Top 10 ROH matches of 2008" on 411. Would anybody SEVERELY disagree with anything there? Now out of this lot I'm missing:

Nigel/Tyler from Take No Prisoners
AOTF/Danielson & Aries from RIE II
Aries/Strong from Undeniable
Danielson/Aries from TNP
Stevens/Strong from RIE II

and both NRC/Briscoes matches.

If anybody has any of these and would be happy to upload them for me, or has any matches which AREN'T on Csonka's list which you think should be, they'd be great too... :)

Thanks.

EDIT: Oh. You just did. :D

[chotliwala]

I thought the Undeniable match was a little weak. And I will fucking get you the TNP matches. The fuck didn't you tell me you didn't have those what the fuck.

And which NRC/Briscoes matches? They've gone up against each other in all sorts of combinations and such.

Edit: Oh I see it's just PPV matches. I'd disagree with Nigel/Claudio. It just seemed like a regular match.

[chotliwala]

RESULTS

~ROH returns to the Hammerstein on March 21st.

1) Kenny Omega defeats Claudio Castagnoli when he reversed the Ricola Bomb in to a small package. Omega didn't get much offense throughout the contest. Claudio flipped after the match and destroyed ringside to big heat. Claudio came out for the match in a Boston Red Sox jersey. Decent opener.

2) Jerry Lynn defeats Chris Hero, Rhett Titus, & The Necro Butcher with a Cradle Piledriver on Hero. Slow match early on, picked up late. More or less a tag match.

~After the match Jimmy and Delirious hit the ring and beat down Necro. Steenerico make the save. Tag Championships on the line NOW!

3) ROH World Tag Team Championships: Kevin Steen & El Generico defeat Jimmy Jacobs & Delirious to retain. Daizee Haze came out and Jimmy tried to attack her, but Delirious made the save. The distraction gave Steen and Generico a chance to hit Delirious with the Package Piledriver/Brainbuster combo for the 3.

~After the match Jacobs gets in Delirious' face and Delirious backs down. Jacobs says Age of the Fall is going to hell.

4) Brent Albright, Roderick Strong, & Erick Stevens defeat Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, & Go Shiozaki in a totally wild street fight. Roddy backdropped Richards through a table to the floor, and Shiozaki took all three men's finishers before tapping to the Crowbar. SNS Inc. walked out on Go. Fans chanted for Go after the match, and he flipped them off. Match was really good.

5) Jay & Mark Briscoe defeat Kensuke Sasaki & Katsuhiko Nakajima with a Jay Driller on Nakajima. Freaking awesome match.

~After the match The American Wolves hit the ring and beat down the Briscoes. They injure Mark's knee with a steel chair. Steenerico hit the ring to attack the Wolves. Davey attempts to help but gets cut off by Albright.

Albright cuts a promo saying that SNS Inc. is ruining ROH. He again makes a challenge for a steel cage match of some kind. Cary at ringside agrees. Mark limps out badly after it was over. No date announced for the cage.

~INTERMISSION~

6) Austin Aries defeats Tyler Black to become the new #1 contender with a brainbuster/450. Match of the night by far. Jimmy came down and "accidentally" distracted Tyler when Tyler had the match won.

~After the match Tyler shoves Jimmy and they argue again. Jimmy gets the upper hand and locks Tyler in The End Time. Aries grabs a chair and pulls Jimmy off of Tyler. Black struggles to his feet, then Aries blasts him with the chair! Jimmy and Aries totally destroy Tyler. Heat was insane!

~After all this ends Austin Aries punches a fan right in the face. Paul Turner gets involved and looks to have the guy in a choke hold. Security and who looks to be Adam Pearce helps escort the guy out. No clue what started it. Turner gets a standing O and a "Next World Champ" chant.

From BotMaster's bro at the show:

As Aries is walking up the ramp, heeling it up, the fan gave him a chop. Aries got right in the fan's face and yelled at him, at which point the fan shoved Aries. Aries responded with a few punches. The fan's friend began to freak out, and was also grabbed by security. The rest is basically what it says in the main post.
7) ROH World Championship: Nigel McGuinness defeats Naomichi Marufuji to retain the ROH World Championship with a Rebound Lariat in an amazing match. Nigel was holding his forearm after the match. Not sure if it's legit.

~After the match Jerry Lynn comes out. He gets a mic and puts over Nigel and the company as a whole. Nigel is still furious Lynn is out. Lynn challenges Nigel for a Championship match RIGHT NOW. Nigel blows him off and runs through the crowd. Great Lynn promo, but the crowd didn't care much.

~Nana sneaks his way in begging for a job once again. And again, he's removed.

8) Bryan Danielson defeats Takeshi Morishima in a brutal Fight Without Honor. Dragon finished the job 20 CHAIN WRAPPED elbows to the head followed by Cattle Mutilation. Just unreal.

~Dragon cuts a promo after the match putting over everyone. Says this was the biggest crowd in ROH history. Thanks everyone for coming. Good stuff.

----------------

Sounds fantastic. Intrigued by Aries finally joining together with Jacobs and glad that they didn't drag out the Tyler face turn. This means that a Nigel/Aries match would be two heels. I'm hoping that Jerry Lynn gets another title shot at the Manassas show. Because I'm selfish like that.

[blackening]

This sounds awesome.

Great moment to start the match, they played Danielson's music but instead of his normal entrance he snuck in the ring behind Morishima and attacked him, he did his HUGE off the top rope, over the guardrail, plancha that hit Morishima, all while his music was still playing! He stands up as the song reaches "it's the final countdown" and the place went crazy!

[Ringo]

It does sound a wee bit amazing, but this is an ROH fanboy we're talking about. It's greatness has probably been exaggerated just a tad.

[jakeb]

The ROHbot Report: ROHbot Year End Awards, Final Battle Weekend Results, Predictions For 2009, And More (http://forums.rajah.com/The ROHbot Report: ROHbot Year End Awards, Final Battle Weekend Results, Predictions For 2009, And More)

[Ringo]

I was just thinking about this earlier, and oh look it was brought up in that Cary Silkin interviews:


AC: Has there ever been thought given to a sort of “less is more” mentality? Maybe putting out fewer DVDs? Not putting out every show, and making the ones that you put out kind of “must-see” DVDs?

CS: We’ve discussed it, but right now the way our business model is continuing to operate, there’s definitely a demand for us to do every show. If we ever announced that, they’d probably be upset about that too. But right now we’re just continuing with what we’ve been doing the last many years.

DO IT.

There are so many fucking shows and dvds to sift through. I don't like it.

[blackening]

http://moneyshot123.110mb.com/images/fb2008/images/fb_315.jpg

Edit: Better?

[Ringo]

http://moneyshot123.110mb.com/images/fb2008/images/fb_315.jpg

RED X

[blackening]

My bad, I just changed it and posted the link instead.

[Ringo]

no better for me I'm afraid :(

what is it!?

[blackening]

Ok, the site is pretty strict on posting their pics.

It was a picture of a bloodied Danielson giving Morisihima the MMA elbows with a chain wrapped around his arm.

If you really want to see it go to www.topropephotography.com (http://www.topropephotography.com). Scroll down and click on 12-27 results. Wait the 60 seconds and when the pics begin to load, click the arrow and go to the 2nd last page of pictures to see it.

[blackening]

DO IT.

There are so many fucking shows and dvds to sift through. I don't like it.
There are a lot of DVDs, but no one is expected to buy them all.

People would bitch if the markets they were going to weren't taped and I think attendance would go down for those shows.

I have an idea:

They could release one DVD per weekend. Combining the best of each night into one DVD. The rest could be put up on the web site along with old matches/shows. This would be viewed on the ROH site via streaming/download for a monthly/yearly charge.

I just think they should put more stuff online.

[chotliwala]

There are way too many fucking DVD's. I looked at the schedule and by the time May rolls around, there will have already been 20 shows. Fucking ridiculous.

I think combining weekends wouldn't be a bad idea. Running less shows would also be better. They won't have Final Battle DVD's available for sale in Manassas. If they would only run when they have new DVD's ready for sale it'd be better.

[Horatio]

that would be awesome if they put out less DVDs. maybe 1 or 2 full shows a month on DVD, with an "ROH December Highlights" DVD for the month's best matches. All of the crap can go to youtube if anyone really "needs" to see it.

[chotliwala]

http://www.declarationofindependents.net/doi/pics/Lumped.jpg

That is supposedly Aries' handiwork.

[blackening]

Who is that? Wait... the fan?

Very nice.

[chotliwala]

It's from DOI so it could just be a googled image of "black eye". If it is the real guy he got fucked up big time.

[DDT]

Serves him right; what part of, 'don't assault the wrestlers' is too hard for people to comprehend? These are big fucking dudes who work out/take steroids. I don't care if you have a third-degree black belt in karate or whatever, they will fuck you up big time.

[Ringo]

It's him. People on DVDVR were discussing what actually happened, but nobody questioned the authenticity of the photo.

[chotliwala]

If that is him, I'm surprised Aries has such a good right hand. Or he missed wildly with his left which is possible.

[Vice]

I'm a righty and am a better punch with my left hand by a ridiculous degree. Wouldn't surprise me if Aries was the same. Well.. opposite.

[chotliwala]

Suppose that's true. I just think his left is his default because when I met him pre-pickle, he formed a fist with his left for a picture with me.

[Ringo]

So is Tyler Black the right man to be the new face of ROH or not?

[chotliwala]

Potentially. Some people find his promos a bit weak, but he is/was hamstrung by the AOTF gimmick. He's what I imagine early ROH fans would cream over - a guy who is ridiculous in the ring. He's quite fun to watch and will probably be world champ at some point this year but I'm not sure if he's ready to be THE FACE yet. He's got tons of built in shit if he were to beat Nigel (Nigel rematch, Dragon rematch, Jacobs feud, Necro as well).

The way the roster is right now, you've got the Aries/Danielson/Nigel troika at the top. Undisputed stars. Tyler is a bit below them but just hasn't had any notable singles wins besides his roll up against Aries. I think a few wins to get to his title shot should be good enough. Before this apparent AOTF split, he was over as a face in singles matches against Nigel, a tweener against Dragon and a heel in tag matchese with Jimmy.

[Ringo]

Well I imagine he'll have a blood feud with Jacobs & Aries now, perhaps forming an alliance with Necro? Or somebody else? Then after that he can begin his pursuit of the title.

[chotliwala]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised to see it go down that route a bit. It isn't quite clear if Jacobs and Aries are together or not (Lacey's Angel's 3.0) but I wouldn't be surprised to see that match at least once. I'd like to see Jacobs/Delirious vs. Black/??? who turns out to be Danielson. And I'd rather they copy the Jericho/HBK feud a bit and have Tyler win the title and then have the blowoff with Jimmy just because Nigel's reign is running out of steam for some people.

Also, here are some Black matches you should try to get:

vs. Danielson (Breakout)
vs. Danielson (Southern Navigation)
vs. Danielson (New Horizons)
vs. Nigel (TNP)

That's pretty much it and sums up why I think he needs a bit more before getting the belt. He's gotten a huge push in tag matches and all those matches are good to HOLY SHIT GREAT, but he's lost all of them.

[Cewsh]

So is Tyler Black the right man to be the new face of ROH or not?

I cannot be emphatic enough in my belief that he is not.

[Ringo]

Explain.

[chotliwala]

As long as Danielson is in the company, they only need a group of new guys to be the new generation. A few out of the Tyler/Davey/Omega/Edwards/Stevens/King group to step up is more than enough. Aries will probably never leave so he can be the grizzled veteran and Jacobs is too small to go anywhere.

[Ringo]

Why are you so sure Aries will never leave? TNA could well give him another go surely?

[Cewsh]

.

[Cewsh]

Explain.

This is my opinion, for the record.

His look is subpar, his in ring skills aren't even top 10 in his own company, and his mic skills are simply not there.

Ring of Honor needs someone to build around to drive strong business at this point, and while Black has alot of fire and an entertaining moveset, he hasn't shown me anything that might allow him to rise above being just another young indy worker and be something special.

I know people think i'm cynical about Ring of Honor, and that's fair. But in this I absolutely don't understand how anyone could think that he could be that one guy when he hasn't done anything in any way special or noteworthy without someone else of a much higher talent grade than himself.


Why are you so sure Aries will never leave? TNA could well give him another go surely?

Didn't they part on extremely bad terms?

[chotliwala]

Yeah Aries wore an ROH shirt to a meet and greet and was suspended and shit and pseudo-shot on TNA at Driven. Plus he's now in charge of Friday shows and has a lot more responsibility. The odds of him going back to TNA are the same of him going to WWE.


I know people think i'm cynical about Ring of Honor, and that's fair. But in this I absolutely don't understand how anyone could think that he could be that one guy when he hasn't done anything in any way special or noteworthy without someone else of a much higher talent grade than himself.

While I for the most part disagree with Cewsh on Tyler Black, he has hit on something here. Tyler's best singles matches have been against Aries, Danielson and Nigel. He needs to have more singles matches before becoming champion. How would he match up with Roddy or Albright or Hero or Claudio in singles is something that needs to be seen.

[Ringo]

His look is subpar? How on earth?

He's 22 years old. His ring skills are pretty fucking good for a 22 year old. Sure, if we're talking about him becoming the "face" of ROH in the next 6 months, then I understand where you're coming from, but this guy has decades ahead of him.

As for mic skills, I haven't really seen any proper Tyler promos, so I can't comment. I've been lead to believe that the potential to improve is there though.

...

Not sure about Aries, I know he no-showed, but so have others who have been given second chances. Not the best situation to be in though, granted.

[Cewsh]

His look is subpar? How on earth?

He's 22 years old. His ring skills are pretty fucking good for a 22 year old. Sure, if we're talking about him becoming the "face" of ROH in the next 6 months, then I understand where you're coming from, but this guy has decades ahead of him.

As for mic skills, I haven't really seen any proper Tyler promos, so I can't comment. I've been lead to believe that the potential to improve is there though.

...

Not sure about Aries, I know he no-showed, but so have others who have been given second chances. Not the best situation to be in though, granted.

- Black is tall but not very muscular, and he's not a particular good looking, or unique looking individual. He looks like the tall skinny version of every indy talent in America right now.

Sure, he's 22 and could improve drastically, especially working with top notch in ring talent like he has been, but you asked if he was the future, and I tell you that there's nothing in his style, his move set, or what i've seen of his grasp of psychology that marks him out for such lofty status among st his peers.

He could prove me wrong and be absurdly good one day, but how can I say that he'll be the future for decades to come when I don't know if Ring of Honor will even be around next year, much less decades from now?

- I've seen his Age of the Fall interviews, and some of his individual efforts up through September, and i'm telling you that he is every bit as dry and passionless a promo as 90% of the rest of the ROH roster.

I get why you and others see potential in him. I do.

I don't get why anyone would consider him a unique talent.

[chotliwala]

- Black is tall but not very muscular, and he's not a particular good looking, or unique looking individual. He looks like the tall skinny version of every indy talent in America right now.

If you take out tall, isn't that basically a description of Bryan Danielson?


I don't get why anyone would consider him a unique talent.

He has that 'it' quality to him. He connects with the crowd really well and can play face, heel and tweener all at the same time basically.

Black's got some improvements to make, but it seems like you're dismissing him off the bat.

[Cewsh]

If you take out tall, isn't that basically a description of Bryan Danielson?



He has that 'it' quality to him. He connects with the crowd really well and can play face, heel and tweener all at the same time basically.

Black's got some improvements to make, but it seems like you're dismissing him off the bat.

First of all, i've never seen a human being as pale as Bryan Danielson, so he's unique right there. And besides that, Danielson is basically a once in a generation talent at what he does and has gotten over exclusively on his in ring talent. There's no comparing the two.

See you say that Black has this "it" quality, but i've never seen it in him. He has good fire and the fans like him, and that's great. But that doesn't mean that he has some magical "it" factor that will draw people to his feuds. I might just be missing it, I don't know, but i've not seen what you're referring to.

And seriously, if you're a face, a heel, and a tweener at the same time, then you aren't doing your job right.

I don't dislike this guy, and I don't want to sell him short, but he's getting the same treatment that Davey Richards got when he debuted, where he was instantly the future regardless of alot of glaring flaws. This works the same way. You can't just gloss over the bad stuff because you're so enamored with the good.

[chotliwala]

First of all, i've never seen a human being as pale as Bryan Danielson, so he's unique right there. And besides that, Danielson is basically a once in a generation talent at what he does and has gotten over exclusively on his in ring talent. There's no comparing the two.

Yeah wasn't meaning to say that Black is the next Danielson, just how the statement was very generic and could be applied to a lot of people.


See you say that Black has this "it" quality, but i've never seen it in him. He has good fire and the fans like him, and that's great. But that doesn't mean that he has some magical "it" factor that will draw people to his feuds. I might just be missing it, I don't know, but i've not seen what you're referring to.

And seriously, if you're a face, a heel, and a tweener at the same time, then you aren't doing your job right.

I don't dislike this guy, and I don't want to sell him short, but he's getting the same treatment that Davey Richards got when he debuted, where he was instantly the future regardless of alot of glaring flaws. This works the same way. You can't just gloss over the bad stuff because you're so enamored with the good.

I'll admit that I'm probably a bit biased in his favor because I've been live for two of his better singles matches but I think he could become big for ROH. He has an ability to get people to get behind him. The match with Nigel nobody in the crowd really gave a shit about. Everyone was booing Nigel (well, minus me obviously) and then it turned into holy shit let's go Tyler (again, not me). Yeah it was one match but the place was fucking insane. Louder than Misawa in the same building and Misawa/Kobashi in England. Unglued.

And he was supposed to be all three at the same time. That's the point. It's easier to be a heel at first but he has been able to become a face just by his actions in the ring and still be a heel when he's doing AOTF stuff.

I can see the Davey comparison. I don't think it's gotten that bad as he's actually had good matches, but if he has shit matches with some of the upper-midcarders, then I'd agree.

[Cactus Lem]

So I watched ROH from January until the Mania shows this year, and while I've read results and stuff, I can't remember hardly anything that's actually happened outside of Claudio going heel on Danielson, and the whole Aries/Jacobs thing.

What I'm wondering basically is what ROH matche's actually stand out from this year and are worth a watch?

I don't want any samey Briscoes matche's with the AOTF, I want to see stuff that is genuinley worth a watch. I loved Tyler Black's matche's with Danielson and Nigel, so I'm wondering how many re-matche's have they had and are they worth watching?

I loved everything Steen and Generico did this year, have they had any stand out matche's this year that anyone would recommend?

Basically most regulars on here know my tastes, so recommend me anything that you think I'll like....

[blackening]

Well, here are the top 15 matches according to PWTorch:

15. Briscoe Brothers vs. LAX from Ring of Homicide 2 = ****1/4
14. El Generico, Shingo, and Dragon Kid vs. Speed Muscle and BxB Hulk from Battle of the Best = ****1/4
13. Kevin Steen and El Generico vs. Speed Muscle from Dragon Gate Challenge 2 = ****1/4
12. Nigel McGuinness vs. Tyler Black vs. Bryan Danielson vs. Claudio Castagnoli from Death Before Dishonor VI = ****1/4
11. Tyler Black vs. Bryan Danielson vs. Kenny Omega = ****1/4 from Bound By Hate
10. Nigel McGuinness vs. El Generico from Age of Insanity = ****1/4
9. Austin Aries vs. Jimmy Jacobs from Vendetta II = ****1/2
8. Nigel McGuinness vs. Kevin Steen from Northern Navigation = ****1/2
7. Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson from 6th Anniversary Show = ****1/2
6. Brent Albright vs. Adam Pearce from Death Before Dishonor VI = ****1/2
5. Muscle Outlaws vs. Typhoon from Supercard of Honor III = ****3/4
4. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries from Supercard of Honor III = ****3/4
3. Nigel McGuinness vs. Tyler Black from Take No Prisoners = ****3/4
2. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries from Rising Above 2007 = ****3/4
1. Age of the Fall vs. Steenerico from Driven 2008 = *****

[Cewsh]

I'm sorry, are they alleging that Adam Pearce and Brent Albright almost had a 5 star match?

[blackening]

I did hear it was good.

I never said I agreed with the list either.

[Cactus Lem]

Well, here are the top 15 matches according to PWTorch:

15. Briscoe Brothers vs. LAX from Ring of Homicide 2 = ****1/4
14. El Generico, Shingo, and Dragon Kid vs. Speed Muscle and BxB Hulk from Battle of the Best = ****1/4
13. Kevin Steen and El Generico vs. Speed Muscle from Dragon Gate Challenge 2 = ****1/4
12. Nigel McGuinness vs. Tyler Black vs. Bryan Danielson vs. Claudio Castagnoli from Death Before Dishonor VI = ****1/4
11. Tyler Black vs. Bryan Danielson vs. Kenny Omega = ****1/4 from Bound By Hate
10. Nigel McGuinness vs. El Generico from Age of Insanity = ****1/4
9. Austin Aries vs. Jimmy Jacobs from Vendetta II = ****1/2
8. Nigel McGuinness vs. Kevin Steen from Northern Navigation = ****1/2
7. Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson from 6th Anniversary Show = ****1/2
6. Brent Albright vs. Adam Pearce from Death Before Dishonor VI = ****1/2
5. Muscle Outlaws vs. Typhoon from Supercard of Honor III = ****3/4
4. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries from Supercard of Honor III = ****3/4
3. Nigel McGuinness vs. Tyler Black from Take No Prisoners = ****3/4
2. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries from Rising Above 2007 = ****3/4
1. Age of the Fall vs. Steenerico from Driven 2008 = *****


I have yet to talk to my fiancee (she'd be driving), but I might go to the 1/31 Chicago show. My biggest concern is the weather.


I can tell you now that Muscle Oulaws vs Typhoon is not an almost 5 star match. It's a good display of athleticism in a match that's basically a re-hash of two other encounters. Yeah the spots are pretty and cool, but as a match it really isn't anything special.

Out of those listed, I've seen four of the top 5. I think the only others that I wouldn't mind seeing are Age of the Fall vs Steen/Generico and the Jacobs vs Aries match up's.

Oh I kinda wanna see the 4 way as well, as I remember thinking the Claudio turn sounded awesome.

Surprised that more of the Danielson vs Black matche's didn't make the list as I remember seeing great reports after each match up. The lack of Danielson in general surprises me actually.


I'm sorry, are they alleging that Adam Pearce and Brent Albright almost had a 5 star match?

Yeah I'd need to see that to believe it......

[Ringo]

I saw that PWTorch list on the ROH forums. Terrible. Nigel/Generico and Briscoes/LAX at ****1/4 is madness.

Lem, I'd have a look a the Indy Thoughts thread from DVDVR, because you get some actual insight into why a match was good and why another wasn't, and seeing as you're familiar with DVDVR, you're probably aware of whose opinions you tend to agree with and whose you don't.

http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.php?showtopic=47085

I also quite like 411Mania since they tend to be a good balance between the ROH Message Board/"ONE THING THAT MAKES A GOOD MATCH IS THE VARIETY OF MOVES USED" (I read that on the ROH board earlier sbasbiabsdiwdeiqud :lol:)/Keller/Caldwell types and the Schneider/DVDVR/Smarkschoice/Finlay vs. Palumbo was MOTY! types.

J.D. Dunn is my favourite reviewer on there, but I don't think he's done a comprehensive ROH list, but if you click here:
http://www.411mania.com/author/?author=421

There should be a number of ROH reviews from the latter part of the year.

Here Larry Csonka, who can be quite annoying but isn't too bad, did a top 10 ROH matches on PPV list...
http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/93064/My-Take-On-12.26.08:-My-Top-10-ROH-PPV-Matches-of-2008.htm

Like you I am currently looking around trying to "do" 2008 in ROH as it were; download notable matches and find out what's hot and what's not etc. So that I can be fully prepared for the new year.

[Ringo]

Also, from what I've heard, Mori/Danielson at Final Battle sounds like the best thing ever.

[chotliwala]

What I'm wondering basically is what ROH matche's actually stand out from this year and are worth a watch?

From May on as I think you've got everything that's good from before that.

Southern Navigation: Black vs. Danielson (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mamdmyz1mzc), NRC vs. NOAH
A New Level: Steenerico vs. NRC, Danielson vs. Marufuji
Up for Grabs: meh
Respect is Earned II: Stevens vs. Strong, Aries/Danielson vs. Jacobs/Black
Battle for Supremacy: Double meh
Vendetta II: Claudio vs. Danielson (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2BXNZ26H), Nigel vs. Lynn, Aries vs. Jacobs
Northern Navigation: Claudio vs. Danielson, Roddy vs. Maru (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FBDSRNL0)
New Horizons: Black vs. Danielson
Fueling the Fire: Aries/Danielson vs. MCMG, Go/Maru vs. Jacobs/Black
Death Before Dishonor 6: Pearce vs. Albright, Steenerico vs. MCMG, Go vs. Maru (http://www.sendspace.com/file/7bnek4), Danielson vs. Black vs. Claudio vs. Nigel
Age of Insanity: meh
Night of the Butcher II: Jacobs vs. Necro
Battle of the Best: Danielson vs. Nigel (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P2MICBTF) (clipped)
The Tokyo Summit: Roddy vs. Sasaki (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mj0x0ymnhcm), KENTA/Ibushi vs. Maru/Nakajima (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nijdjmi21dd), Kanemaru vs. Danielson (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ztggzh5rmlc)
Driven: Lynn vs. Hero, Go vs. Claudio vs. Danielson (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wmmz4kyjfjg), Roddy vs. Nigel (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zk3xxzv1nym), Steenerico vs. Jacobs/Black (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?xjtzq3tmyje)
Glory By Honor 7: Danielson vs. Nakajima (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2wmj2m4y2qt), Generico vs. Nigel (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yljnyjqnjjz), Steel Cage Warfare (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?k32mnadn2yk)
Return of the 187: Tag team ironman (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yqyzjjmy1ny)
Ring of Homicide 2: Aries vs. Jacobs I (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tikeammwjnw), Tyler vs. Lynn (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ny0kynmymxc), LAX vs. Briscoes (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ecmzzkgioi1)
The French Connection: Davey vs. Roddy (http://www.sendspace.com/file/kfrav4)
Bound by Hate: Aries vs. Jacobs II (http://www.sendspace.com/file/c1ywa6), Danielson vs. Black vs. Omega (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=H4I5M5ES)

Shows in bold I should be able to get you stuff from.

Added matches for Vendetta II, The French Connection and Bound by Hate.

[chotliwala]

Yeah I'd need to see that to believe it......

It actually lives up to the hype. Way fucking better than you would think. Has to be the best match of Pearce's life.

[Cactus Lem]

I saw that PWTorch list on the ROH forums. Terrible. Nigel/Generico and Briscoes/LAX at ****1/4 is madness.

Lem, I'd have a look a the Indy Thoughts thread from DVDVR, because you get some actual insight into why a match was good and why another wasn't, and seeing as you're familiar with DVDVR, you're probably aware of whose opinions you tend to agree with and whose you don't.

http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.php?showtopic=47085

I also quite like 411Mania since they tend to be a good balance between the ROH Message Board/"ONE THING THAT MAKES A GOOD MATCH IS THE VARIETY OF MOVES USED" (I read that on the ROH board earlier sbasbiabsdiwdeiqud :lol:)/Keller/Caldwell types and the Schneider/DVDVR/Smarkschoice/Finlay vs. Palumbo was MOTY! types.

J.D. Dunn is my favourite reviewer on there, but I don't think he's done a comprehensive ROH list, but if you click here:
http://www.411mania.com/author/?author=421

There should be a number of ROH reviews from the latter part of the year.

Here Larry Csonka, who can be quite annoying but isn't too bad, did a top 10 ROH matches on PPV list...
http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/93064/My-Take-On-12.26.08:-My-Top-10-ROH-PPV-Matches-of-2008.htm

Like you I am currently looking around trying to "do" 2008 in ROH as it were; download notable matches and find out what's hot and what's not etc. So that I can be fully prepared for the new year.

Cheers :yes:

I'll check through some of those when I have a little more time during the day tomorrow.

One thing I will say though, I haven't been on DVDR too mcuh as of late, but was browsing briefly the other day, and fucking hell did I HATE some of the pretentious shit and damn right awful opinions in the WWE 2008 thread. People claiming Michaels was shit in the Jericho feud while also saying all of their matche's dissapointed was just sheer insanity.

I seriosuly hope the Indy thread is a step up from that sack of shit.

Also Chot, thanks for that list, and I appreciate you linking the matche's you've already upped :yes:

I'll make a list tomorrow of the matche's I want to and will try to watch.

[blackening]

Awesome chot, thanks for the matches.

Cactus - I would recommend Aries/Jacobs and Danielson/Claudio from Vendetta II since I was there live and they were both really good.

[Jordo]

So I've been looking for an old CM punk promo, it's from during the raven feud, punk is in the back and he talks about his dad and why he hates raven, very emotional promo and pretty amazing as well.

Anyone know where I could find it.

[blackening]

Northern Navigation: Claudio vs. Danielson
Fueling the Fire: Aries/Danielson vs. MCMG

Shows in bold I should be able to get you stuff from.
If you could manage to get these two matches, that would be awesome.

[chotliwala]

:yes: I'll do my best.

[blackening]

Thank you. No rush, when ever you get a chance.

I think I'll be ordering 2 DVDs since its 35% off right now. I'm looking at Bound by Hate and Escalation if I do.

[chotliwala]

I really wanna see that Joe/Black match if only for the production aspect but I haven't been able to find it online anywhere yet.

[Hero!]

So I've been looking for an old CM punk promo, it's from during the raven feud, punk is in the back and he talks about his dad and why he hates raven, very emotional promo and pretty amazing as well.

Anyone know where I could find it.

http://www.gamespot.com/users/sephy37/video_player?id=dXMxlmD-5bkEszfb

I keep this shit bookmarked.

"This is true. This is real. THIS IS STRAIGHT EDGE!".

Punk with a character = amazing.

[Ringo]

Punk has a character. Just not as deep as that one.

[Hero!]

I want that Punk though. That Punk vs Jeffrey Hardy could be so amazing.

Oh well, any punk is better than no Punk.

[DDT]

It actually lives up to the hype. Way fucking better than you would think. Has to be the best match of Pearce's life.

It is so not up to the hype; I saw that match with some moderately high hopes, thinking that finally, the Albirght of OVW that I knew and loved was coming back. Nope, not the least. The match isn't BAD, but...well, here's the review of a like-minded yet more eloquant individual:

Match #4: Adam Pearce [c] w/ Sweeney, Hagadorn, and Death Ray vs. brent albright [NWA Heavyweight Championship]
Fuck my life. Watching Albright run out pissed off in the gimp gear is unintentionally hilarious, and really just terrible. Pearce yelling at the crowd feels incredibly rehearsed to me. I remember them wanting to kill each other in June, and they start with wrestling. Usually, when A GODDAMNED FIREBALL IS THROWN, a feud doesn't do chain wrestling anymore. This was worked as some weird hybrid of an old NWA Title match and current ROH style, with Pearce playing Flair (and failing miserably), and Albright playing "Hawk/Animal/Sting/Luger/Nikita/power guy", except that I don't care about him, so I have no reason to root for him. As a matter of fact, I hate both guys. Pearce goes stuff and works over a cut with stuff on the floor to bridge to ROH style. SNSI interference FINALLY getting stopped was a great bit. The minor knee work felt retarded and PEarce doing the Figure Four felt like ROH saying "FLAIR DID THAT MOVE AND HE WAS NWA CHAMPION. THAT BELT IS IN ROH, SO WE MUST BE AWESOME NOW." I also totally dont buy Pearce kicking out of TWO Half Nelson Suplexes. Albright doing the multiple Germans is fuckiing blasphemy. Near the end, Albright used a FUCKING SUNSET FLIP FROM THE TOP! YOU ARE A GODDAMNED BIG MAN HERE. WRESTLE LIKE ONE, YOU TALENTLESS FUCK.

I get how this would have been super fun live, and if I gave a shit about either man, I might care about this. As it is, Albright is a terrible wrestler, and I don't have any reason to like him. The mixing of the NWA and ROH styles totally bombed, as they forgot the hybrid, and just turned into ROH style ten million nearfalls at the end without remembering the NWA style they started with. If you want to see that done correctly, watch CM Punk vs. James Gibson from ROH Fate of an Angel in 2005. The difference between that and this is that those two were among the best heels and faces ROH ever had, and Albright and Pearce are among the worst. Albright is still a TERRIBLE wrestler, but at this point, it's all smoke and mirrors.

Also, about this Tyler Black becoming next big thing in ROH (BUW-HAHAHAHA) one only needs to see my critique on Tyler Black a few pages back to get what I think, but I will say this: if I went into wrestling, and then starting aping AJ Styles to a sizeable AJ Styles-starved fan-base, I'd probably get mad love too.

[Jordo]

I want that Punk though. That Punk vs Jeffrey Hardy could be so amazing.

Oh well, any punk is better than no Punk.


Christ that's awesome, love that promo it's amazing, I would love if he heads that way in WWE sometime, Punk/Hardy could be great but we will never see it, in the Raven/Punk feud Punk being the heel is what made it, WWE couldn't do it that way would be a PR nightmare.

Heel Punk is fucking amazing if I ever hear him do the I'm better than you character in WWE my head may in fact explode.

Punk/Sandman would have worked better, or Punk/Austin both with punk as the heel. Punk/Austin may be a dream feud we will never see

[Cewsh]

Also, about this Tyler Black becoming next big thing in ROH (BUW-HAHAHAHA) one only needs to see my critique on Tyler Black a few pages back to get what I think, but I will say this: if I went into wrestling, and then starting aping AJ Styles to a sizeable AJ Styles-starved fan-base, I'd probably get mad love too.

:lol:

Absolutely.

[Cactus Lem]

Black vs. Danielson,
Claudio vs. Danielson
Aries vs. Jacobs
Claudio vs. Danielson
Black vs. Danielson
Aries/Danielson vs. MCMG
Pearce vs. Albright,
Steenerico vs. MCMG,
Danielson vs. Black vs. Claudio vs. Nigel
Danielson vs. Nigel
Steenerico vs. Jacobs/Black
Aries vs. Jacobs I
Aries vs. Jacobs II

Those are the ROH matche's from this year that I'm going to try giving a watch. If cho hasn't already uploaded any of those and someone has links or is willing to upload then please do.

I also remember the recent Chicago show having a McGuinnes vs Danielson match, but I haven't read much about it. Surley that's got to be worth a watch?

Anyway, I got around to watching Supercard of Homor II today, all I can say was that being there live, it was waaaaay better. Fine show, but a bit of a dissapoitment, I remember it being better.

I'm not getting all the love for the Steen/Generico vs Shingo/BB Hulk match from the show, it was good for a display of impressive moves and reversals, but some of the selling is totally off, there are far to many kick out's out of HUGE moves, and the match seem's to go a little too long to me. The problem was with all of the kick outs and 2.9 counts, was what really was the point? Doesn't having a load of them in this match cheapen the impact of the counts in the McGuinnes vs Aries match and the 6 man main event? Maybe I'm being picky, but I thought the match, while fun got ridiculously stupid at times.

McGuinnes vs Aries was also nowhere near as good as I remember it being. Took a while to get going, and got better as it went on, but no way do I think it's the MOTYC it's being touted as.

[chotliwala]

The Chicago match you're talking about is a PPV match (Rising Above) which comes out Jan 16.


It seems the fan who was sending stuff to the DOI and other sites made up his story and picture. Full credit to the posters on the CZWFans.com message board for browsing through many pages of a google search to find the original black eye picture. I gotta be honest, I dropped the ball on this one, as I have alot of stuff going on that doesn't include covering/reporting on shows featuring men rolling around in their underwear. I just didn't research the story at all and just thought it was entertaining, which is why most fans come to the DOI anyway.

http://www.declarationofindependents.net/doi/pages/rjohapalj1231.html

That picture was a fake :(

[Ringo]

:eek:

What were all the DVDVR people going on about then!? Maybe they looked reasonably similar.

[Ringo]

Black vs. Danielson,
Claudio vs. Danielson
Aries vs. Jacobs
Claudio vs. Danielson
Black vs. Danielson
Aries/Danielson vs. MCMG
Pearce vs. Albright,
Steenerico vs. MCMG,
Danielson vs. Black vs. Claudio vs. Nigel
Danielson vs. Nigel
Steenerico vs. Jacobs/Black
Aries vs. Jacobs I
Aries vs. Jacobs II

If you manage to find any of these matches then I'd appreciate it if you can upload them, and likewise I will do the same as I find them.

Has chot sent you Steenerico/AOTF? I've got it if you want it uploaded.

I may have a couple of others from that list actually.

[chotliwala]

Haha Ringo check up like five posts.

Lem I'll try to get that Aries/Danielson vs. Guns tag. I'm no dice on the DBD6 matches, but if you let me know which shows the first few are from then I can try.

[Ringo]

Haha Ringo check up like five posts.


:lol:

Absolutely.

???

[chotliwala]

I said "like" five posts. Not exactly five posts. Was referring to this (http://forums.rajah.com/showpost.php?p=5793536&postcount=215) post where I gave Lem all the matches I gave you (and a few more because I like him better).

[Cewsh]

What was confusing about my post, mate?

[Ringo]

What? Nothing.

[Ringo]

Oh yeah QUESTION!

I keep hearing how shit Ruckus is and what a pointless waste of space he supposedly is. Why is this and if he's so shit why would they have decided to sign him in the first place?

[DDT]

Because he does a lot of flips and somersaults and MOVEZ!!!~! and Gabe is/was a total move-set mark. Also, he was to be the first recruit of Jack Evans' flippy-flippy brigade.

[Hero!]

Oh yeah QUESTION!

I keep hearing how shit Ruckus is and what a pointless waste of space he supposedly is. Why is this and if he's so shit why would they have decided to sign him in the first place?

I quite like Ruckus. Probably the only guy, besides Generico and Danielson, that I'd bother watching anything related to ROH for.

[Ringo]

How can anybody not like Jimmy Jacobs? He's literally amazing. And Chris Hero for that matter.

And what about the likes of The Briscoes, Aries etc. Right up your street they are.

[Hero!]

I got bored of the briscoes and I've never had an interest in any of those other guys.

[Ringo]

You should see more Chris Hero then. The Briscoes are gay.

Also I found this wicked awesome feud highlight vid on youtube of the Human Tornado/Chris Hero feud. it's EPIC. I wish WWE would use music like this in their video packages :)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1uEItmSP2mg

[Hero!]

Human Tornado is awesome. Is he still in ROH?

[Ringo]

Nah, he recently fucked up his knee big time and tore his ACL. So he'll be out for over a year. I believe he wrestled the Cage match with Hero with the injury, which is part of the reason I'm so desperate to see it since it is supposed to be brilliant.

[Hero!]

Please, call him Chris. There's only one Hero around here.

[chotliwala]

Oh yeah QUESTION!

I keep hearing how shit Ruckus is and what a pointless waste of space he supposedly is. Why is this and if he's so shit why would they have decided to sign him in the first place?

The problem is less with Ruckus and more with stable warfare. Jack was involved in it from February 07 (shit that seems real long ago) and kept saying he was gonna make his own crew but he didn't until August 07 at Manhattan Mayhem II when Ruckus debuted. Jigsaw came along later and along with Julius Smokes they were the Vulture Squad. The pure babyface faction that did cool flippy moves. And like, I know it's all movez~! and shit, but fuck if I wasn't entertained by them live.

Anyways throughout faction warfare the Briscoes held the tag titles all the way from Mania weekend through Final Battle where they lost them to AOTF. AOTF lost them to NRC in January who lost them to the Briscoes in April 2008 for no real reason. So the Vulture Squad wasn't allowed to look strong at all. They got a couple tag title shots against the NRC and looked decent and did beat the Briscoes but just were never able to build momentum. There was a storyline that at the 6th Anniversary Show Smokes wanted Jigsaw to unmask if they lost but after the match Jigsaw just went to the back but he unmasked on a videowire. Even more anticlimactic then it reads. Trios Tournament 2007 got canceled as well due to snow and shit and I always thought that the Vulture Squad would do well in that. And probably the biggest issue was that they always got injured. Jack broke his face in Mexico or Japan or something and Ruckus like nearly died of pneumonia or something leaving just Jigsaw as Smokes was MIA for a long time as well. The tag team of Jack/Ruckus probably clicked better but Jack was never around so they went with Ruckus/Jigsaw which ended up being decent but the stable just didn't have any build or momentum of any sort behind it so it was obvious that they were JTTS.

Ruckus got a title shot by winning the Honor Rumble in Detroit. Sound stupid but it was for a title shot in Manassas which is pretty much his home crowd and he was pretty over.

So yeah as for your actual question, I think he's decent in like four corner survivals and six man mayhems and other scramble like matches, but he's got no real character. They had a chance when they brought in Kingston and Sabian and Joker for a BLK OUT invasion sort of but Kingston disappeared eventually and it was dropped.

I think there's an answer in there somewhere :dunno:

[jakeb]

Ring Of Homicide 2 DVD Review: http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/publish/ringofhonorlive/rohomicide.shtml (http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/publish/ringofhonorlive/rohomicide.shtml)

[Jordo]

Nah, he recently fucked up his knee big time and tore his ACL. So he'll be out for over a year. I believe he wrestled the Cage match with Hero with the injury, which is part of the reason I'm so desperate to see it since it is supposed to be brilliant.

Fucking amazing, anytime I hear about someone doing anything with a torn acl it blows my mind. From experience I had a hard time walking after I tore mine. Much less leaping around wrestling